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 DoomMouse wrote:
Are vultures really that bad? To me they seem like a punisher but tougher (more wounds and -1 to hit), faster, potentially better ballistic skill, and can't be locked in CC.

They're not terrible, but they're not great. Tank commanders can get BS 3+ easily and then add a free re-roll 1s buff, while the Vulture is BS 4+ (5+ if the target can fly!) unless it forfeits its -1 to hit and the ability to move to get that 24" gun into range. With a large model on a tall base you're never going to get out of LOS, so your only defense is your stat line. As a flyer, the Vulture will never be able to score objectives while the LRBT can even get objective secured! Finally, insult to injury is that the Vulture has to pay 40 points for a twin weapon while the LRBT pays 20 points for a single weapon and fires it twice. It all adds up to a unit that is weaker, but probably not by such a margin that you'll automatically lose if you love the model and put one on the table.

Plus the fact the Punisher Cannon in general is quite poor against anything but light infantry as it's main weapon holds it back. If it fires at Primaris marines in cover it's only going to kill 1. The guard already possess the tools to take out plenty of light infantry. And already need enough help with AT and durable heavy infantry. I suppose it could be useful against things like Venoms? I'd rather just use autocannons at that point, though.

The good comes from the fact this thing can kind of go after enemy characters. But is that worth it's points cost? A Valk can almost do the same thing but also transport 12 models for close to the same points cost.

At the end of the day, it's not a bad unit. You're probably going to have to design a list with this thing in mind. But if you think it's cool, then use it!


On another note, the crowd in the "5pt Guardsmen" thread are getting quite rowdy. Here's a list of everything that's been called undercosted or OP in that thread so far:

OP
Company Commander, Colonel Straken, infantry squads, SGT Harker, Scions, Scion Command Squads, Bullgryn, Hellhounds, Heavy Weapons Squads (mortars), Basilisks, Manticores, Leman Russes, Shadowswords


So then I made a list of the remainder of the units in the codex with my own experience:

Unplayable
Master of Ordnance, Special Weapons Squad, veterans, Officer of the Fleet, Wyrdvane Psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, Deathstrike

Properly balanced-ish
Creed, commissars, Tempestor Primes, Primaris Psykers, Conscripts, Platoon Commanders, Command Squads, Kell, Priests, Crusaders (synergy issues), Tech priests, Astropaths, Ogryn Bodyguards, Scout/Armored Sentinels(there's worse units, haha), Wyverns (kinda bad), Hydras (definitely not good), Chimeras (bit over priced), Tauroxes, Valks (bit overpriced for the lack of synergy)

I'm wondering if people really believe all that stuff is OP, if we just have the tools to combat nearly everything, are other armies THAT bad, OR if 1/3rd of the codex is OP. And after all the nerfs our codex has received, how could 1/3rd of the codex get past playtesters (granted I don't have much faith in that system but that many OP units getting through is wild). Additionally, the vast majority of our Stratagems are garbage tier. I could play through games without using any at all besides the rulebook ones and be nearly the same off.

In short, I'm opposed to the increase in points for Guardsmen simply for the fact people seem to have it out for guard over any other faction and it will not stop at 5ppm Guardsmen, I'm sure of that. They'll merely go on to yell about the rest of our units they've already brought up. It's ominous to think that other nerfs have occurred by GW listening to these voices. Just think about all those questionable nerfs that hit many of our FW units.

What do you guys think? I'd consider 5ppm Guardsmen if I knew other things would be balanced well at the same time. I just doubt that will happen. And I play pure guard so I regularly play full infantry lists or lists with 6-10 infantry squads. That's quite a change for my lists.

Somebody in that thread even said that infantry squad is op because it can fire double amount of shots after falling back... (Yeah, it seems we are able to issue two orders per unit... and even we do not need HQ for that xD). Haters gonna hate nothing You can do about that. Just drink their tears.
Once CA drops there will be changes. We will get buff or nerf and just roll with it. META changes, rules changes, only war never change.
If guardsmen will rise to 5ppm then we will have to change our lists. There will be nothing to "consider" then .Please note that there are still Ork players xD. You don't need to play strong army to have fun .

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I wish rough riders were part of the codex so they were worth the time/effort/money to build and convert. I would happily make some for my guard.

The whole "index only" thing has me wary to bother, though.

Why do you think that you cannot use Rough Riders with your IG/AM army? You can use any datasheet from the index that is not in the AM codex in your AM list.

What are everyone's thoughts on a single large conscript squad of 30 (insane bravery to keep them on the field) to sit on major objectives / plop themselves in the center? I find our regular infantry squads melt too easily to Morale and it's expensive command point wise to keep them from running.

So we've got new ITC missions boys. For a pure guard army it has some key changes.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/08/10/itc-2018-mid-season-mission-updates/

Overall I like it, we just need to be aware that our cute little trick to game the system doesn't work quite as well. Mainly denying reaper by taking heavy weapons in infantry squads. It now rewards points on the amount of models destroyed, not units. This means that even though your squads are technically 9 models, they now count. For the average soup abuser, this isn't a big deal as they never took that many guardsmen to begin with, but it is an issue for pure guard armies as losing 20 men is very easy to do. You need to lose 80 to max out the points. This means there will likely be a sweet spot around 6 infantry squads or so where you get a good amount of infantry but deny max points, which will reward a hybrid style approach.

The main thing it does is let us score points much easier. Tons of the little tricks elite armies were doing to deny points are gone now, so IG armies that rely on force to score points will be very happy I think. They also added a mission that incentivises holding multiple objectives on the final turn, which is excellent for any pure guard army.

It remains to be seen how we do in the new mission types, but overall I think they did a pretty good job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Naix

I find it interesting you're having issues with morale. What regiment are you running? Even just basic commissars should be plenty for most armies and are dirt cheap.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So we've got new ITC missions boys. For a pure guard army it has some key changes.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/08/10/itc-2018-mid-season-mission-updates/

Overall I like it, we just need to be aware that our cute little trick to game the system doesn't work quite as well. Mainly denying reaper by taking heavy weapons in infantry squads. It now rewards points on the amount of models destroyed, not units. This means that even though your squads are technically 9 models, they now count. For the average soup abuser, this isn't a big deal as they never took that many guardsmen to begin with, but it is an issue for pure guard armies as losing 20 men is very easy to do. You need to lose 80 to max out the points. This means there will likely be a sweet spot around 6 infantry squads or so where you get a good amount of infantry but deny max points, which will reward a hybrid style approach.

The main thing it does is let us score points much easier. Tons of the little tricks elite armies were doing to deny points are gone now, so IG armies that rely on force to score points will be very happy I think. They also added a mission that incentivises holding multiple objectives on the final turn, which is excellent for any pure guard army.

It remains to be seen how we do in the new mission types, but overall I think they did a pretty good job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Naix

I find it interesting you're having issues with morale. What regiment are you running? Even just basic commissars should be plenty for most armies and are dirt cheap.

I run them as Cadians. I don't usually go for commissars as I'd rather just get more bodies on the field. I just find that when I take 6-7 casualties in a naked 10 min squad, morale often gets the remainder which is annoying. These being the squads I'm running forwards to objectives. Makes me think that conscripts might be a more efficient use of insane bravery albeit at reduced lasgun efficiency.

You should be running commissars bare minimum. Basic ones are 16pts, they'll pay for themselves just from the ld 8aura and close combat, although Lord commissars at 31pts or so are probably the better buy. If you're running a Russ, you should make one a commissars tank, that ld 9 aura is very handy.

In addition as cadians I would make a strong case for Kell, even without Creed. His free reroll is very handy and he gives you an extra order on top of a decent little cqc character.

Theretically a 30 man conscripts squad sounds good but just a token squad or two will get focused down pretty hard. They also only accept orders half the time. Infantry squads still perform the job better with officer support as they are faster. You just need to dash from cover to cover and choose your moment carefully. I've had fun with large amounts of Valhallan conscripts but I'd still say in 99% of situations you want infantry squads instead.

 Colonel Cross wrote:

On another note, the crowd in the "5pt Guardsmen" thread are getting quite rowdy. Here's a list of everything that's been called undercosted or OP in that thread so far:

OP
Company Commander, Colonel Straken, infantry squads, SGT Harker, Scions, Scion Command Squads, Bullgryn, Hellhounds, Heavy Weapons Squads (mortars), Basilisks, Manticores, Leman Russes, Shadowswords

Since I'm one of the proponents for 5py guard I'll give you my 2 cents without the interference of the more antagonistic opinions.
CC: Not OP, but could potentially be adjusted upwards provided he can take something like a command rod.
Straken/harker/scions/bullgryns/hellhounds were not called out as OP afaik, they were merely mentioned tangentially
Mortars are objectively too cheap compared to similar options (Tau SMS turret)
Basilisks/manticors/russes/infantry are the main points of contention, particularly how they synergize.
Shadowswords are one of those big units that feels unfair under certain circumstances, which is exacerbated by their ludicrous AT damage.

So then I made a list of the remainder of the units in the codex with my own experience:

Unplayable
Master of Ordnance, Special Weapons Squad, veterans, Officer of the Fleet, Wyrdvane Psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, Deathstrike

Properly balanced-ish
Creed, commissars, Tempestor Primes, Primaris Psykers, Conscripts, Platoon Commanders, Command Squads, Kell, Priests, Crusaders (synergy issues), Tech priests, Astropaths, Ogryn Bodyguards, Scout/Armored Sentinels(there's worse units, haha), Wyverns (kinda bad), Hydras (definitely not good), Chimeras (bit over priced), Tauroxes, Valks (bit overpriced for the lack of synergy)

Why you so mean to SWS? They get 2 guys per special, and pay the cheapest prices for weapons in the Imperium. They don't play like infantry, but they aren't unplayable.
Veterans are unplayable because infantry is too cheap AND they pay more for plasma/melta, their overall damage per point is poor next to infantry. The Elite slot doesn't help either.
Ogryns/ratlings I've not used but other people have been happy with them overall.
Poor deathstrike

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
You should be running commissars bare minimum. Basic ones are 16pts, they'll pay for themselves just from the ld 8aura and close combat, although Lord commissars at 31pts or so are probably the better buy. If you're running a Russ, you should make one a commissars tank, that ld 9 aura is very handy.

In addition as cadians I would make a strong case for Kell, even without Creed. His free reroll is very handy and he gives you an extra order on top of a decent little cqc character.

Theretically a 30 man conscripts squad sounds good but just a token squad or two will get focused down pretty hard. They also only accept orders half the time. Infantry squads still perform the job better with officer support as they are faster. You just need to dash from cover to cover and choose your moment carefully. I've had fun with large amounts of Valhallan conscripts but I'd still say in 99% of situations you want infantry squads instead.

I've thought about that, but the most a commissar is going to save is an additional guardsman. (Leadership 8 vs 7). You're saving maybe 2 guardsmen as a result of their Aura. Would it not be better just to invest in more bodies on the field?

Well the commissar only costs 4 guardsmen barebones. Give him a power axe/maul and he becomes a decent little counter punch guy in casual play. Lord commissars hit on 2's in combat so they can be a good choice for a fist or axe.

The big thing is you get to choose when you shoot a guy for the reroll. Which means if you fail the test by 1 you can let it be, but if you fail by 6 you can shoot a guy to have a chance at saving several.

In a vacuum this doesn't seem like such a big deal, but on the initial turns you'll often see several squads down to morale, and in later turns you may be low on CP to use for morale. I'm not saying your army needs tons of commissars, but a couple of strategically placed ones tend to pay for themselves quickly.

My main regiment is Valhallans, so for me every point of ld helps more, but for other armies they have a valid use. I would say for non Valhallans Lord commissars shine best when you need to fill out multiple batallions as they are the next cheapest HQ and at that point you have enough infantry to ensure they get some use. Regular commissars are probably a better choice in smaller games where you have less guardsmen or you have other auras like a commissar tank or an Inquisitor to combo them with, essentially just using their reroll and their ld 8 as a backup.

A final fringe scenario is ld debuff abilities. If commissars are well placed, they will be out of the debuff zone affecting your squads. This means your guardsmen can be nuked to -5 ld, but if your commissar is outside the debuff range they stay ld 8 regardless. Incredibly fringe I know but with IG even a -2 aura can kill a lot of guardsmen to morale.

TL;DR: if I had to rate commissars, I'd say they come into their own in a pure or mostly pure IG army. They serve a valid role and aren't game breaking but you will be surprised how much work they can do if used well. However in the competitive meta of Souphammer 40Soup, most players don't have need of them because their guard contingent will rarely hit a number of guardsmen high enough to warrant their inclusion. They're borderline mandatory for an army wishing to include a high amount of guardsmen, as they become more efficient the more infantry you have, which is something that can be said for many of our characters such as priests and officers.

Anyone have an opinion on power swords on sargeants for Catachans?

With the new ITC changes to reaper, Heavy weapons aren't as important anymore and allows a bit more flexibility.

Been torn between either dropping the mortar and adding a power sword, or swapping to Cadia and keeping the mortar, but also adding a sniper to each squad.

Opinions?

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I just noticed with the rule of 3 change, and the price drop to autocannons, that Taurox's are only 68 points with a heavy stubber. Two of them together give roughly the same amount of shooting as a Leman Russ Exterminator with a price reduction...and troop capacity. I don't know about tournament play, but being able to drop nigh infinite sentinels/heavy weapon squads that can protect my dudes from turn 1 wipes is pretty neat (Dedicated Transports and Troops being exempted from the rule of 3).

Has anyone done something like this yet?

EDIT:

"Yo dawg, we heard you like screens, so we put a screen, in your screen, so you can screen with a screen that is INSIDE your screen!"

 JB wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I wish rough riders were part of the codex so they were worth the time/effort/money to build and convert. I would happily make some for my guard.

The whole "index only" thing has me wary to bother, though.

Why do you think that you cannot use Rough Riders with your IG/AM army? You can use any datasheet from the index that is not in the AM codex in your AM list.

I never said you can't use them.

You just won't be able to forever, as they're 99% being phased out after/during this edition.

Cephalobeard wrote:Anyone have an opinion on power swords on sargeants for Catachans?

They're fine, but not great. Most of the time, they'll struggle to land wounds (two swings at WS4+/S4 aren't great), and against a lot of targets you'd rather have the extra swing from a chainsword. That said, they're super cheap. Depending on how you run your stuff, there's usually an order of precedence for small upgrades. I'd slot power swords as follows:
Plasma in Infantry squads
Storm Bolters on Hellhounds
Power Swords on officers
Storm Bolters on LRBTs
Power swords on infantry squads
Stubbers on Artillery

Ravemastaj wrote:I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I just noticed with the rule of 3 change, and the price drop to autocannons, that Taurox's are only 68 points with a heavy stubber. Two of them together give roughly the same amount of shooting as a Leman Russ Exterminator with a price reduction...and troop capacity. I don't know about tournament play, but being able to drop nigh infinite sentinels/heavy weapon squads that can protect my dudes from turn 1 wipes is pretty neat (Dedicated Transports and Troops being exempted from the rule of 3).

Has anyone done something like this yet?

EDIT:

"Yo dawg, we heard you like screens, so we put a screen, in your screen, so you can screen with a screen that is INSIDE your screen!"

I'm pretty sure they're 78 points, not 68. If you run them as Tallarn, they can move and shoot, which makes them useful light tanks. Without that, they're stuck being static pillboxes. They're reasonably tough.

The money play would be to include a tallarn battalion for ambushing, and then buy tauroxes to deploy as light tanks.

Still, real talk? Autocannons are at best "fine" and hellhounds are only 23 points more.

 Polonius wrote:

Cephalobeard wrote:Anyone have an opinion on power swords on sargeants for Catachans?

They're fine, but not great. Most of the time, they'll struggle to land wounds (two swings at WS4+/S4 aren't great), and against a lot of targets you'd rather have the extra swing from a chainsword. That said, they're super cheap. Depending on how you run your stuff, there's usually an order of precedence for small upgrades. I'd slot power swords as follows:
Plasma in Infantry squads
Storm Bolters on Hellhounds
Power Swords on officers
Storm Bolters on LRBTs
Power swords on infantry squads
Stubbers on Artillery

Ravemastaj wrote:I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I just noticed with the rule of 3 change, and the price drop to autocannons, that Taurox's are only 68 points with a heavy stubber. Two of them together give roughly the same amount of shooting as a Leman Russ Exterminator with a price reduction...and troop capacity. I don't know about tournament play, but being able to drop nigh infinite sentinels/heavy weapon squads that can protect my dudes from turn 1 wipes is pretty neat (Dedicated Transports and Troops being exempted from the rule of 3).

Has anyone done something like this yet?

EDIT:

"Yo dawg, we heard you like screens, so we put a screen, in your screen, so you can screen with a screen that is INSIDE your screen!"

I'm pretty sure they're 78 points, not 68. If you run them as Tallarn, they can move and shoot, which makes them useful light tanks. Without that, they're stuck being static pillboxes. They're reasonably tough.

The money play would be to include a tallarn battalion for ambushing, and then buy tauroxes to deploy as light tanks.

Still, real talk? Autocannons are at best "fine" and hellhounds are only 23 points more.

Autocannons are reduced by 3pts each, to 12pts in the Guard codex in Chapter Approved. The basic Taurox went from 74 to 68 when equipped with a heavy stubber. I just figured that 10x infantry squads and 10x Taurox add up to just 1080pts. That's more than enough firepower to destroy an enemies' opposing screen, and I don't think most armies could cover the same amount of ground as those 20 units. Then you can season your list to taste (tanks, lascannons, hellhounds, etc.) Oh...and you can only take 3 hellhounds. Six if you do the Artemia version.

But hellhounds can be taken in squads of three so more like 18 hellhounds?

Hello, fellow commanders!

So, what do you recommend against Knights? So far it seems they can pretty much obliterate both our infantry and our tanks with ease.

They have a very good defense against shooting (4++ always turned to 3++ on one of them).

They have great chance to go first and destroy your juicy staff before you use it.

They cant be locked in close combat and can deliver very good CC attacks.

What is your experience with them? I am very anxious to hear that


My experience so far:
Shadowsword does not help, because he is the first to die. Even if you are lucky and get the first turn, he can only damage a knight (unless you are really lucky with your dice rolls) and then die in the opponents turn.
Infantry cant do anything to knights and get vaporized VERY quickly through both shooting and close combat.
Massed Tank commanders are similar to Shadowsword, because one Knight can destroy/criticaly damage one Leman Russ in one turn of shooting.

So as part of my Guard CP Battalion for my Custodians, I've got the mandatory 2 CC + 3 Infantry Squads, but I've also got some points left over to upgrade them. I can potentially take Plasma or Flamers, and have 3x Autocannon teams. Would it be worth taking these or keeping them bare-bones?

Ravemastaj wrote:
Autocannons are reduced by 3pts each, to 12pts in the Guard codex in Chapter Approved. The basic Taurox went from 74 to 68 when equipped with a heavy stubber. I just figured that 10x infantry squads and 10x Taurox add up to just 1080pts. That's more than enough firepower to destroy an enemies' opposing screen, and I don't think most armies could cover the same amount of ground as those 20 units. Then you can season your list to taste (tanks, lascannons, hellhounds, etc.) Oh...and you can only take 3 hellhounds. Six if you do the Artemia version.

Yeah, the autocannons went down 3 each, but the base taurox went up to 50... so it's 74 stock or 78 with a stubber. And Hellhounds can be squadroned up, so you can drop up to 9.

I just wouldn't spam the basic autocannon. It's a niche weapon that has decent ability to fill in other roles, but it's too few shots for effective anti-horde, and at S7 AP1 it's at best mediocre anti-tank.

Guard have some of the best anti-screen units in mortars and infantry with orders. Like I said, if you run tallarn, the Taurox is reasonably decent, but more as a durable objective grabber that can do a bit of work than a real heavy lifter. I mean, two Tauroxes with stubbers are the same as an LRBT with stubber, and I know which one I would rather have.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Are vultures really that bad? To me they seem like a punisher but tougher (more wounds and -1 to hit), faster, potentially better ballistic skill, and can't be locked in CC.

They're not terrible, but they're not great. Tank commanders can get BS 3+ easily and then add a free re-roll 1s buff, while the Vulture is BS 4+ (5+ if the target can fly!) unless it forfeits its -1 to hit and the ability to move to get that 24" gun into range. With a large model on a tall base you're never going to get out of LOS, so your only defense is your stat line. As a flyer, the Vulture will never be able to score objectives while the LRBT can even get objective secured! Finally, insult to injury is that the Vulture has to pay 40 points for a twin weapon while the LRBT pays 20 points for a single weapon and fires it twice. It all adds up to a unit that is weaker, but probably not by such a margin that you'll automatically lose if you love the model and put one on the table.

Would straffing run not take care of the BS issue?

Vulture is BS 4+. So after moving strafing run bonis negates heavy weapon shoot after moving penalty. So still 4+. TCs are BS 3+ and grinding advance negates penalty for moving and shooting turreted weapon so still BS 3+

Gnollu wrote:
Vulture is BS 4+. So after moving strafing run bonis negates heavy weapon shoot after moving penalty. So still 4+. TCs are BS 3+ and grinding advance negates penalty for moving and shooting turreted weapon so still BS 3+

Yep, I agree.

 Lothar wrote:
Hello, fellow commanders!

So, what do you recommend against Knights? So far it seems they can pretty much obliterate both our infantry and our tanks with ease.

They have a very good defense against shooting (4++ always turned to 3++ on one of them).

They have great chance to go first and destroy your juicy staff before you use it.

They cant be locked in close combat and can deliver very good CC attacks.

What is your experience with them? I am very anxious to hear that


My experience so far:
Shadowsword does not help, because he is the first to die. Even if you are lucky and get the first turn, he can only damage a knight (unless you are really lucky with your dice rolls) and then die in the opponents turn.
Infantry cant do anything to knights and get vaporized VERY quickly through both shooting and close combat.
Massed Tank commanders are similar to Shadowsword, because one Knight can destroy/criticaly damage one Leman Russ in one turn of shooting.

1. Win roll-off for 1st turn (by far, the most important part).

2. Unveil Relic of Lost Cadia (this step may not be necessary, if you don't need to move to target the 3++ knight).

3. Move warlord with Old Grudges & Relic of Lost Cadia within 6" of Pask w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, Tank Commander w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, and Shadowsword w/ twin heavy bolter sponsons.

3. Pask orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.

4. Tank Commander orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.

5. Fire Pask at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.

6. Use Overlapping Fields of Fire on 3++ knight.

7. Fire Tank Commaner at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.

8. Fire Shadowsword at 3++ knight for 18.43 unsaved wounds.

9. 3++ knight is destroyed.

10. 3++ gets back up 75% of the time and wins anyway.

The end.

Well, that 10 point difference changes everything. I was figuring the anti-horde could've been handled en-masse (5-6 casualties every turn while wounding on 2+/3+ can melt most armies other than Orks, and having 10 gives you 40 autocannons and 30 stubbers...a respectable amount of dakka). The extra 100 points makes them just on the edge of utility- now I figure they can fill gaps that can't be filled by sentinels and hellhounds, although with you pointing out that hellhounds can be in squadrons it looks like there are going to be very few holes to fill that wouldn't just be infantry.

I might still give it a go in smaller games, and it seems like a decent tactic for Apocalypse if you need to get across some boards.

jaxor1983 wrote:
1. Win roll-off for 1st turn (by far, the most important part).

2. Unveil Relic of Lost Cadia (this step may not be necessary, if you don't need to move to target the 3++ knight).

3. Move warlord with Old Grudges & Relic of Lost Cadia within 6" of Pask w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, Tank Commander w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, and Shadowsword w/ twin heavy bolter sponsons.

3. Pask orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.

4. Tank Commander orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.

5. Fire Pask at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.

6. Use Overlapping Fields of Fire on 3++ knight.

7. Fire Tank Commaner at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.

8. Fire Shadowsword at 3++ knight for 18.43 unsaved wounds.

9. 3++ knight is destroyed.

10. 3++ gets back up 75% of the time and wins anyway.

The end.

Alternatively don't fire at the knight with 4++ warlord trait to begin with. No 3++.
Alternative B: Shoot at it with your least significant guns that 3++ would still help. If he pops strategem unless you still cause significant damage SWITCH TARGET. He has spent 1 or 3 CP for 3++ and you then shoot at 5++ knight instead. Bwahahaha. Alternatively if he saves strategem to get that shadowsword screened you get to shoot all the others without. That's what keeps happening to me which is why I have started to be more tighter with the inv boosting.

 Lothar wrote:
Hello, fellow commanders!

So, what do you recommend against Knights? So far it seems they can pretty much obliterate both our infantry and our tanks with ease.

They have a very good defense against shooting (4++ always turned to 3++ on one of them).

They have great chance to go first and destroy your juicy staff before you use it.

They cant be locked in close combat and can deliver very good CC attacks.

What is your experience with them? I am very anxious to hear that


My experience so far:
Shadowsword does not help, because he is the first to die. Even if you are lucky and get the first turn, he can only damage a knight (unless you are really lucky with your dice rolls) and then die in the opponents turn.
Infantry cant do anything to knights and get vaporized VERY quickly through both shooting and close combat.
Massed Tank commanders are similar to Shadowsword, because one Knight can destroy/criticaly damage one Leman Russ in one turn of shooting.

Go the other way the best anti knight unit is the infantry man the more the better

As long as your not playing with clocks

I sometimes run AM/BA and with a core of 12 infantry squads 6 scout squads and 3 HWT. Its very tough for the knight player.

In pure guard a couple of sentinals in place of scouts though they are not as good

A unit of crusaders with an astropath/primaris is also a solid delay watch a knight comedically stomp a 2+ inv unit and kill 1.

The aim is not to kill the knights but to out objective them. Deploy 2 scout squads in lines 9" from the knights this blocks their advance

You want the other scout squads back a bit in cover if possible but able to form up in lines just outside heroic intervention range.

Thats T1/T2 Once there gone your infantry should be in position repeat

Typically the knights squish the two units they can get to and shoot up 2-3 more meanwhile you hold the objectives.

Adding yet more infantry and cheap characters is great for this.

Remember they cant advance over infantry only fall back overthem.
Also its well funny when a castellan is forced to shoot a 4pts guardsman.
(Note games may be slow)

tneva82 wrote:

jaxor1983 wrote:
1. Win roll-off for 1st turn (by far, the most important part).

2. Unveil Relic of Lost Cadia (this step may not be necessary, if you don't need to move to target the 3++ knight).

3. Move warlord with Old Grudges & Relic of Lost Cadia within 6" of Pask w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, Tank Commander w/ executioner, lascannon, and heavy bolters, and Shadowsword w/ twin heavy bolter sponsons.

3. Pask orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.

4. Tank Commander orders himself to Pound Them to Dust.

5. Fire Pask at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.

6. Use Overlapping Fields of Fire on 3++ knight.

7. Fire Tank Commaner at 3++ knight for 5.98 unsaved wounds.

8. Fire Shadowsword at 3++ knight for 18.43 unsaved wounds.

9. 3++ knight is destroyed.

10. 3++ gets back up 75% of the time and wins anyway.

The end.

Alternatively don't fire at the knight with 4++ warlord trait to begin with. No 3++.
Alternative B: Shoot at it with your least significant guns that 3++ would still help. If he pops strategem unless you still cause significant damage SWITCH TARGET. He has spent 1 or 3 CP for 3++ and you then shoot at 5++ knight instead. Bwahahaha. Alternatively if he saves strategem to get that shadowsword screened you get to shoot all the others without. That's what keeps happening to me which is why I have started to be more tighter with the inv boosting.

This is a valid backup strategy - an effort to get some points out of a game after when you know you've lost. But it sort of feeds into the "play around the castellan" theory, which can potentially only work if you spam infantry, which is tedious and (in my opinion) boring.

If he has castellan that#s nice for this trick. 3cp for rotate, then you ignore it. Castellan good but kill couple smaller ones and he'll struggle with objectives.


I put 4++ on castellan precicely because i can't really use strat on it barring shadowsword preparing to fire at it

BTW on YMDC was pointed out valid way which counters RIS pretty well. Start up with shadowsword. Declare targets for it. Pick 2 knights. Knight player then has to choose whether to activate +1 inv save. Then fire AT guns on the other knight and heavy bolter(s) to the boosted shield one. Watch knight go up in flames along with 1 CP.

Only time this doesn't really work is if you are up against raven castellan at which point you pretty much need to try at that castellan and hope for best unless you are satisfied at trading shadowsword for one of the other knights and 3 CP from knights when he boosts shields for castellan and you shoot at other knight with volcano cannon instead.