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As the title asks. How many squads total should a codex compliant chapter have? How many of those are Terminator squads, Vanguard Vet, and Sternguard Vet?

Well, each company, 1st included, consists of 100 marines. But I think the 1st can have any combination of Terminator and Veteran squads, depending on how well equip they are. A chapter like the Minotaurs, for instance, are noted for having almost full stocks of TDA, so they could field a lot more Termis than some other chapters could.

So really, a 1st company could consist of 20 Terminator squads, or 10 Veteran squads, or any mixture inbetween.

Full strength, there should be 11 squads total. One command squad to accompany the captain, and 10 others. How well equipped the chapter is determines how much TDA they have, and the nature of the chapter will give you the split between tactical/assault. In an ideal world, every marine in the 1st company would have the option to suit up in TDA if needed, or his old PA if the tactical situation required it. While every veteran is capable of both ranged and close combat, they do have preferences and are generally assigned to squads with like marines.

Plus your captain, chaplain, and venerable dreadnoughts (2-4 of them)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1080018a&prodId=prod2080046a

The GW 1st Company Veterans 1-click bundle has about a 50/50 mix of both TDA/PA and tac/assault. It's worth noting that because of the way they did the pictures, they have more sergeants then they should. And while I don't have any numbers to cite, 50% TDA seems high to me. I might go with 30-40 suits for troops, rather then 50. And while we lack C:SM rules for it in this edition, I'd put the command squad in terminator armor.

10 squads of 10, plus a command squad of undefined numbers.

As for how many are TDA vs Vanguard/Sternguard, it depends on the chapter.


A chapter would deploy everyone in TDA if they could. So the number of Terminators is entirely dependent on how much terminator armor they have.

Some Chapters may have enough to give the whole 1st company terminator armor, others may only have enough for a single squad.

Any Veterans without TDA will deploy as VV or Sternguard as the situation dictates. Those who do get Terminator armor will also have the option to deploy in PA if the situation warrants it. Assault Terminators will gravitate towards being VV while tactical terminators will lean towards Sternguard.

As said, 10 squads of 10 marines. They are all trained to be capable of wearing Terminator armor onto the field, if the Chapter has the numbers to support such an action and there is the necessity. None of them are actually dedicated as Terminator squads.

Used to be there was no such things as Sternguard squads, etc either. Each Veteran squad was normally formed as a Tactical squad.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As said, 10 squads of 10 marines. They are all trained to be capable of wearing Terminator armor onto the field, if the Chapter has the numbers to support such an action and there is the necessity. None of them are actually dedicated as Terminator squads.

Used to be there was no such things as Sternguard squads, etc either. Each Veteran squad was normally formed as a Tactical squad.

I should point out that there are actually exceptions to this 'no dedicated terminator squad' The dark angels deathwing for instance. Not only do they have dedicated terminator squads but the entire first company wears terminator armour i believe.

That's true, but those are definitely out of the norm (Same as Space Wolves). But I was referring to a standard Codex-adherent Chapter.

The split between sternguard/tactical and vanguard/assault would also probably change regularly as the individual veterans will have their own preferred combat methods and weapons as well as what is specifically required by the chapter at any given time. Its frequently noted that Marine veterans have a much wider access to the chapter armoury compared to their standard trooper brethren and probably have more of a say in how they are fielded.

 Nevelon wrote:

The GW 1st Company Veterans 1-click bundle has about a 50/50 mix of both TDA/PA and tac/assault. It's worth noting that because of the way they did the pictures, they have more sergeants then they should. And while I don't have any numbers to cite, 50% TDA seems high to me. I might go with 30-40 suits for troops, rather then 50.

30-40 is a bit low I think, EPIC has always* had Terminators being fielded in 20-strong autonomous detachments without a 0-1 restriction. IIRC a full Terminator company card in SM2e was 60 Terminators.

* except Epic 40k which didn't have set detachment sizes

These replies are infuriating! Except for the first one, TheFatElf's.

First Companies each have thirty squads. Those are between zero and twenty terminator squads, and a full ten veteran squads. A marine can be in one veteran squad and a separate terminator squad at the same time. Terminator squads are five marines.

TRIVIA: first companies each have two company chaplains, apparently.

So 300 marines per first company, pelicaniforce? I do not believe that fluffy. If you go 5 man combat squads, that is still 150 marines.

I think it's fair to say YMMV depending on which Chapter you're looking at. It can be pretty diverse, and it seems there isn't an exact template.

I do not believe that fluffy.

TO REVIEW

In generic chapters:

terminator squads are five marines each.

there are 100 veterans in a first company.

that makes twenty terminator squads.

each veteran is also in a veteran squad of ten.

that makes thirty squads.

there are one hundred normal veterans.

there are twenty terminator squads.

there are ten veteran squads.

each veteran is in two squads simultaneously.

one veteran is in a veteran squad and a terminator squad simultaneously.

everyone in the world is a turd in a pile of turds.

There are also: one captain, two company chaplains, one apothecary, one standard bearer. There are any number of Land Raiders, with or without separate crew. Command squads are fake-full of terrible terrible turds like a giant model of an impacted colon.

pelicaniforce wrote:
These replies are infuriating! Except for the first one, TheFatElf's.

First Companies each have thirty squads. Those are between zero and twenty terminator squads, and a full ten veteran squads. A marine can be in one veteran squad and a separate terminator squad at the same time. Terminator squads are five marines.

TRIVIA: first companies each have two company chaplains, apparently.

Source? This contradicts a large amount of other sources.

But it got me to drag out my older codexes to check.

3rd ed, strategic disposition of Ultramarines 6500745.M41
Does in fact have two chaplains, in addition to the apothecary and standard bearer. 8 vet sarges, 87 vet marines, 74 suits of TDA. Invictus was the captain back then, for those keeping track. Agemman was captain of the 2nd, and would take charge of the 1st in subsequent lists. It's worth pointing out that in the full chapter photo in the front, there are 50 terminators and 50 vets, broken up into 5 man squads, each with a sarge. Only 5 rhinos with 1st company colors though.

4th ed.
Captain, chaplain (just one this time) apothecary, standard bearer. Squads: 20 terminator or 10 veteran

5th ed.
Captain, 97 vets. While the command squad is not called out, nowhere does it say the 1st doesn't follow the same 10x10+command format of the rest of the companies.

... in a Codex-adherent Chapter of 1000 Battle-Brothers, you can't have 200+ people in the 1st Company. You have 10 Companies of ~100 Marines each.

If you are going after a codex adherent Chapter like the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, etc, it's 100 marines, organized into squads of 10, or sometimes split into smaller combat squads of 5. But never more than 100 dedicated battle brothers.

They certainly have access to the best the Chapter has to offer, so some of them may take to the field in Terminator armor instead of Power armor if need be. But those are still the marines that would normally be in one of the ten-man power armor squads otherwise. There are no dedicated Terminator squads in a standard "vanilla" chapter, only in home-brews (which is totally fine) and certain special chapters like the Dark Angels where that is one of their unique aspects. It's exactly like the Assault Squad of a normal company deciding to take to the field on bikes instead of on foot/jump pack.

It's been that way for at least 18 years, if you go by the Ultramarines codex from 2nd edition (1995). Further if you go into Rogue Trader's later days around 1990.

Nevelon wrote:But it got me to drag out my older codexes to check.
3rd ed [...]
4th ed [...]
5th ed [...]

And even earlier:

"A Chapter consists of ten companies each of one hundred Space Marines. A company consists of ten squads each of ten men, including a Sergeant. In addition to this basic fighting strength, each company has its own Captain, Standard Bearer, Chaplain and Apothecary. A Chapter also includes a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the company organisation. These individuals are known as the headquarters staff, and they may be assigned to fight with a company in battle. Included amongst them are psychic Librarians from the Chapter's Librarius and Techmarines together with their Servitors."
- 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines : Codex Chapter Organisation

It's also discussed in the Index Astartes article from WD #252, available here as an online backup.

The standard Chapter organisation has indeed been fairly established for a very long time, at least in GW studio sources. I noticed, however, a huge degree of "word of mouth" on this topic amongst the fandom, occasionally twisting statements or even propagating interpretations that supposedly address mistakes GW never actually made.

[edit] Too slow.

pelicaniforce wrote:


everyone in the world is a turd in a pile of turds.

I am glad you think us all and yourself a turd.

Still non-fluffy in practice, for different reasons stated afterwards, namely that chapters don't have 100 suits of TDA in many cases. It is also much simpler to state that there are 10 veteran squads, which can be suited up as terminators and organized into 5 man terminator squads while using TDA.

Actually most of you are close but......

All Captains are part of the First Company. (Check it up)
So Techinically including the 100 regular Astartes there would be 119 Astartes in the first company.
This includes 0 - 20 Terminator squads OR
a mix of terminator, sternguard, or vanguard veterans, or all sternguard or all vanguard. By itself that would be 100 Astartes. The head staff is a command squad around 5 + Captain + Chaplain + Apothecary + Liby + Ancient.
There are 9 other Captains in a chapter (usually) and it is detailed that all captains are part of the First Company. We are also not sure if there are captains within the first company that are being trained as well. So It might be larger than initially thought.

If you disagree with me please consult your space marine codex before arguing with Adeptus Astartes scholar. Thank you and enjoy the lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

Nevelon wrote:But it got me to drag out my older codexes to check.
3rd ed [...]
4th ed [...]
5th ed [...]

And even earlier:

"A Chapter consists of ten companies each of one hundred Space Marines. A company consists of ten squads each of ten men, including a Sergeant. In addition to this basic fighting strength, each company has its own Captain, Standard Bearer, Chaplain and Apothecary. A Chapter also includes a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the company organisation. These individuals are known as the headquarters staff, and they may be assigned to fight with a company in battle. Included amongst them are psychic Librarians from the Chapter's Librarius and Techmarines together with their Servitors."
- 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines : Codex Chapter Organisation

It's also discussed in the Index Astartes article from WD #252, available here as an online backup.

The standard Chapter organisation has indeed been fairly established for a very long time, at least in GW studio sources. I noticed, however, a huge degree of "word of mouth" on this topic amongst the fandom, occasionally twisting statements or even propagating interpretations that supposedly address mistakes GW never actually made.

[edit] Too slow.

According to that yes. But.... A command squad is not part of the company but is still counted to the company strength.

Just like how Captains are part of the first company and are counted as First Company Veterans. They just are never all present with the company with the exception of the Battle of Macragge, where there were multiple captains in the first company.

Asherian Command wrote:All Captains are part of the First Company. (Check it up)

If you claim something, it generally helps if you back it up with a source.

Like so:

"Each company in a Space Marine Chapter falls under the command of a Captain. Each Captain is a hardened veteran, a master strategist who has proven his prowess in battle as a member of the Chapter's 1st Company or through distinguished service in his own Company prior to the death of his predecessor."
- 5E C:SM p.54

Alternatively, you could also use images, like so:


(btw, pages 18-19 of that Codex feature the complete 2nd Company with every single character depicted - feel free to count them!)

Asherian Command wrote:According to that yes. But.... A command squad is not part of the company but is still counted to the company strength.

Obviously not according to the GW studio sources recently cited in this thread.

I don't know what you've read ... but of course it could merely have been some deviating interpretation of the setting from some Black Library novel or whatever. Let's keep in mind that, according to the very people who write these books, this franchise does not actually have a "canon".

 Lynata wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:All Captains are part of the First Company. (Check it up)

If you claim something, it generally helps if you back it up with a source.

Like so:

"Each company in a Space Marine Chapter falls under the command of a Captain. Each Captain is a hardened veteran, a master strategist who has proven his prowess in battle as a member of the Chapter's 1st Company or through distinguished service in his own Company prior to the death of his predecessor."
- 5E C:SM p.54

Alternatively, you could also use images, like so:

Spoiler:

- 5E C:SM p.17

(btw, pages 18-19 of that Codex feature the complete 2nd Company with every single character depicted - feel free to count them!)

Asherian Command wrote:According to that yes. But.... A command squad is not part of the company but is still counted to the company strength.

Obviously not according to the GW studio sources recently cited in this thread.

I don't know what you've read ... but of course it could merely have been some deviating interpretation of the setting from some Black Library novel or whatever. Let's keep in mind that, according to the very people who write these books, this franchise does not actually have a "canon".

Read Battle of Macragge. I do not even count black liby as a source. (the White dwarf version)

Plus there are a few chapters such as the Crimson fists that had more than 100 Veterans in their first company. (until it was slaughtered during the war on Rynns World)

So In short It depends on the chapter my friend. The Ultramarines had several brother captains in the first company during the Battle of Macragge.

"Each of these captains is a member of the veteran company, has proven his courage time and time again and emobdies the honor and fighting spirit of his batttle brothers. "
-White Dwarf 300 Pg. 127 Captains Paragraph-

Though for all we know it could be atypo

Asherian Command wrote:Read Battle of Macragge. I do not even count black liby as a source. (the White dwarf version)

Are you referring to the book that came with the Ultramarines vs Tyranids boxed set? Because that does not contain any fluff about company structure or Captains.
Please, with debates such as these, just quote the exact paragraph, and add the source, like you did with the other bit. It helps greatly to sort things out! Even aside from the "there's no canon anyways" issue, I and surely a lot of other dakkanauts are always interested in either picking up or confirming details in GW fluff.

Asherian Command wrote:"Each of these captains is a member of the veteran company, has proven his courage time and time again and emobdies the honor and fighting spirit of his batttle brothers. "
-White Dwarf 300 Pg. 127 Captains Paragraph-

Hmm. I do know this issue of WD, as I have in the past on occasion quoted from it on the question of how the Marines crew their vehicles. But page 127 on what I'm looking at here is a battle report of Orks vs Space Marines. Could be a regional thing, though?
There is an article about Chapter organisation and tactics titled "The Ultramarines at War", but it doesn't say anything about the Captains. What it does feature, however, is yet another diagram:

100 Veterans period +support and depending on chapter traditions. Also Captains can be promoted from the company the're in they don't have to be only from the first company.

 Lynata wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Read Battle of Macragge. I do not even count black liby as a source. (the White dwarf version)

Are you referring to the book that came with the Ultramarines vs Tyranids boxed set? Because that does not contain any fluff about company structure or Captains.
Please, with debates such as these, just quote the exact paragraph, and add the source, like you did with the other bit. It helps greatly to sort things out! Even aside from the "there's no canon anyways" issue, I and surely a lot of other dakkanauts are always interested in either picking up or confirming details in GW fluff.

Asherian Command wrote:"Each of these captains is a member of the veteran company, has proven his courage time and time again and emobdies the honor and fighting spirit of his batttle brothers. "
-White Dwarf 300 Pg. 127 Captains Paragraph-

Hmm. I do know this issue of WD, as I have in the past on occasion quoted from it on the question of how the Marines crew their vehicles. But page 127 on what I'm looking at here is a battle report of Orks vs Space Marines. Could be a regional thing, though?
There is an article about Chapter organisation and tactics titled "The Ultramarines at War", but it doesn't say anything about the Captains. What it does feature, however, is yet another diagram:

Spoiler:

Yeah must be regional. Because on my page 127 for White Dwarf 300 The special super sized anniversary issue there are parts detailing what each job within the Adeptus Astartes.

There is also a battle of macragge white dwarf which detailed the entire events of the battle of macragge not the box set. I have White Dwarfs all the way down to #50 to #340

I know for a number of years there was a one issue offset in the numbers of WD for US vs. UK ones. Not sure if that is still the case.

Nevelon wrote:I know for a number of years there was a one issue offset in the numbers of WD for US vs. UK ones. Not sure if that is still the case.

I'm 99% sure it still is. At least it was the case when I went looking for the issues with the SoB 'dex. Gotta be careful on ebay.

And if German White Dwarf is an indication, the articles can differ in content as well. There's a load of stuff that was never released in German WD but in UK, and vice versa...
No idea if WD US has its own writers or if they copy from the UK editors, though.

[i]"the 1st Company Veterans belong to two different squads: a Terminator squad and a Veteran squad. Each type of squad has its own number." - Codex Ultramarines

Each of the one hundred veterans is in two squads, meaning if a squad were one marine, there could be twice as many squads as there were marines.

Initially, I was just upset that people said terminators came in squads of ten, just because they felt like pressing the Submit button. Now the problem is people succumb to the IQ test style problem of saying that yes, all men are doctors.


"When equipped with Terminator armour the Space Marines of the 1st Company are organised into Battle Squads of five men. This means that at full strength the Chapter could field twenty such squads!" - ibid

Please refer to the attached image. Even having lost 17 of its 87 terminator suits, a chapter with 100 veterans in its first company still has ten veteran squads and perhaps 14 terminator squads. It has 24 squads in the first company.

Also, if a company has all twenty squads of terminators, and squad nine gets stepped on by a titan and sucked into the warp, squads ten through twenty do not shift down a number.

Isn't this just a bit misleading, though? The standard seems to be to have the Marines form in Veteran squads - it is only for specific deployments that they whip out the Termie suits.

It is a fair point, however, to keep in mind how Terminator units are organised within the Chapter, and how this affects the overall deployment!

Here's another one from the same Codex to better help visualise the structure as it was explained in that source:

From a common sense point of view, a Chapter should be using the best kit it has available except if (and sometimes even when!) there's considerably high risk of said kit being lost. It's always struck me that the 1st Company is the Terminator company first and foremost, but where there aren't enough suits to go around, the remainder are deployed in power armour out of necessity.

Case in point - the Dark Angels have enough suits to outfit their entire 1st Company, so they do so. Grey Knights have so many suits they don't even *have* a separate 1st Company. (Ok, so that's not the real reason, but you get the idea.)

This is just speculation but, I had always assumed that there were 100 veterans in a codex chapter.

Those veterans are masters of the art of war and have mastered each weapon and the skills around it.

Now these veterans have veteran sergeants that call the shots for the unit. They pick and choose as, promotion permits, who joins their unit.

The sergeant probably chooses (or is ordered by captain) what combination of weapons will be used for the battle.

The codex chapter then has an inventory of 50 terminator suits with every weapon option available to them (barring the ancient and sacred things like assault cannons and cyclone missile launchers).

In addition to those they have 100 bolt pistols, 100 chainswords, 100 bolters and an assortment of plasma pistols ect.

I would then imagine that the brothers who take the suits of TDA would then take the weapons they preferred, usually vanguard taking TH/SS or lightning claws and the sternguard going with stormbolters ect.

The codex chapter would also have 10 Landraiders. One for each 5 man unit of Terminators. However, with the ability to deepstrike, it could be seen that the tanks could be given over to other tasks.

I would also like to ask a question. Are the pilots of 1st company vehicles also veterans themselves?