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jaxor1983 wrote:
But it sort of feeds into the "play around the castellan" theory, which can potentially only work if you spam infantry, which is tedious and (in my opinion) boring.

I'm not sure why you're shooting down the idea. "Play around the death star" is the standard way to win against death star lists. If they dump a ton of resources into creating an unkillable brick of HP you kill the rest of their army, make all of the points/CP they invested into defense worthless, and win the game on the objectives. Investing into killing the death star is playing right into their strategy.

tneva82 wrote:
BTW on YMDC was pointed out valid way which counters RIS pretty well. Start up with shadowsword. Declare targets for it. Pick 2 knights. Knight player then has to choose whether to activate +1 inv save. Then fire AT guns on the other knight and heavy bolter(s) to the boosted shield one. Watch knight go up in flames along with 1 CP.

Only time this doesn't really work is if you are up against raven castellan at which point you pretty much need to try at that castellan and hope for best unless you are satisfied at trading shadowsword for one of the other knights and 3 CP from knights when he boosts shields for castellan and you shoot at other knight with volcano cannon instead.

Nice ! Pretty useful rules trick.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
BTW on YMDC was pointed out valid way which counters RIS pretty well. Start up with shadowsword. Declare targets for it. Pick 2 knights. Knight player then has to choose whether to activate +1 inv save. Then fire AT guns on the other knight and heavy bolter(s) to the boosted shield one. Watch knight go up in flames along with 1 CP.

Only time this doesn't really work is if you are up against raven castellan at which point you pretty much need to try at that castellan and hope for best unless you are satisfied at trading shadowsword for one of the other knights and 3 CP from knights when he boosts shields for castellan and you shoot at other knight with volcano cannon instead.

Nice ! Pretty useful rules trick.

You can also take this strategy a step further, and say, "I'm going to target Questoris Knight." Wait for them to say, "OK, I'm going to use RIS on that Knight." Then say, "I'm also going to target Dominus Knight."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

jaxor1983 wrote:
But it sort of feeds into the "play around the castellan" theory, which can potentially only work if you spam infantry, which is tedious and (in my opinion) boring.

I'm not sure why you're shooting down the idea. "Play around the death star" is the standard way to win against death star lists. If they dump a ton of resources into creating an unkillable brick of HP you kill the rest of their army, make all of the points/CP they invested into defense worthless, and win the game on the objectives. Investing into killing the death star is playing right into their strategy.

The difference between ignoring an invulnerable death start from 7th and ignoring a Raven Castellan is that the Raven Castellan will kill most of its points back every turn in the shooting phase alone (again, unless your list consists solely of low threat units).

 Lothar wrote:
Yes, our stratagems are quite bad in comparison to others. Thats the reason why guard is mostly use as CP farm and back objective holder. Most players use the CPs for other detachments, like blood angels or custodes.

Just look at their strats...chaos, eldar, tyranids, ba, custodes...we cant compare to those...

Better than marine stratagems.

jaxor1983 wrote:


You can also take this strategy a step further, and say, "I'm going to target Questoris Knight." Wait for them to say, "OK, I'm going to use RIS on that Knight." Then say, "I'm also going to target Dominus Knight."

That wouldn't fly in most circles. Aside from being really gamey it's just kind of a move. I could see someone doing it to a friend to mess with them once as a joke but that absolutely would not hold up to any judge who isn't a moron. That's not tactics or skillful play, that's intentionally trying to trip up your opponent through abusing a gamey interpretation of the rules. I would expect most areas to say something along the lines of "no, you need to declare all your targets so he can decide where he pops the strategem. If you waited that long and didn't say anything then it's clear you weren't going to shoot anything else and are now just trying to cheat the system because he rotated ion shields. Have fun shooting the questoris." Even if that is technically RAW, I would not expect to be invited back for a game after pulling something like that. I know in my area that would be a surefire way to never get a game again.

Of course maybe you're just joking here, tone can be hard to interpret in text. I just don't want to see something that is so clearly abusive and in bad sportsmanship be suggested in a tactics thread that tons of new players read every day. This isn't a tactic, it's borderline (or in my opinion, absolutely) cheating. We have enough TFG's exploiting RAW as it is, last thing we need to do is actively encourage it as advice.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

jaxor1983 wrote:


You can also take this strategy a step further, and say, "I'm going to target Questoris Knight." Wait for them to say, "OK, I'm going to use RIS on that Knight." Then say, "I'm also going to target Dominus Knight."

That wouldn't fly in most circles. Aside from being really gamey it's just kind of a move. I could see someone doing it to a friend to mess with them once as a joke but that absolutely would not hold up to any judge who isn't a moron. That's not tactics or skillful play, that's intentionally trying to trip up your opponent through abusing a gamey interpretation of the rules. I would expect most areas to say something along the lines of "no, you need to declare all your targets so he can decide where he pops the strategem. If you waited that long and didn't say anything then it's clear you weren't going to shoot anything else and are now just trying to cheat the system because he rotated ion shields. Have fun shooting the questoris." Even if that is technically RAW, I would not expect to be invited back for a game after pulling something like that. I know in my area that would be a surefire way to never get a game again.

Of course maybe you're just joking here, tone can be hard to interpret in text. I just don't want to see something that is so clearly abusive and in bad sportsmanship be suggested in a tactics thread that tons of new players read every day. This isn't a tactic, it's borderline (or in my opinion, absolutely) cheating. We have enough TFG's exploiting RAW as it is, last thing we need to do is actively encourage it as advice.

Yeah that's pretty dick move. And I would arque illegal. You declare targets, THEN RIS comes. Just declare them, have knight declare which he protects and fire only heavy bolter to it and rest to the regular inv save one. Good enough.

Yes its on a par with saying i shoot my melta at your knight- what you can't rotate ion shields i've selected a weapon.

Its just bad sportsmanship

It should be noted that the ymdc answer on this isnt clear cut and depends on an interpretation of step 2 of the shooting phase.

It can reasonably be argued that as part of step 2 you have to select the firing weapon to check range for targetting.

"In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile)"

Note "the weapon" not "a weapon"

Since a castellan kills a baneblade chasis in one round of shooting on average dice, is the consensus that the only way to effectively field a baneblade chasis right now is Tallarn?

tag8833 wrote:
Since a castellan kills a baneblade chasis in one round of shooting on average dice, is the consensus that the only way to effectively field a baneblade chasis right now is Tallarn?

Well.. You could go Valhallan, place it 50% obscured by a ruin, and have a techpriest repair it if it survives and then maybe it would survive a round on Raven Castellan shooting on mid tier and still be able to do something bottom of 1.

jaxor1983 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Since a castellan kills a baneblade chasis in one round of shooting on average dice, is the consensus that the only way to effectively field a baneblade chasis right now is Tallarn?

Well.. You could go Valhallan, place it 50% obscured by a ruin, and have a techpriest repair it if it survives and then maybe it would survive a round on Raven Castellan shooting on mid tier and still be able to do something bottom of 1.

I would recommend you not try this. A Castellan does 30.4 unsaved wounds on average to a baneblade in cover.

Also, if you have a table where you can put an entire baneblade into ruins, I'd like to see that table.

Doesn't need to be entire baneblade. Little bit from front is enough as long as enough from front is then covered.

Woof. Whatever house trait is the same as Valhallan mixed with rotate ion shields = 36 damage to my shadowsword (with nightshroud!) after that damn thing walked right up to it and ate my entire army's firepower ... I thought I messed it up at least when I did like 16dmg to it. That thing is terrifying.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Woof. Whatever house trait is the same as Valhallan mixed with rotate ion shields = 36 damage to my shadowsword (with nightshroud!) after that damn thing walked right up to it and ate my entire army's firepower ... I thought I messed it up at least when I did like 16dmg to it. That thing is terrifying.

Yup it's basically custom made to kill shadowswords and other things of similar type. Or vehicles in general. You basically need 2 shadowswords AND go first or you will lose your shadowsword first. If he goes first that shadowsword goes bum. If you go first at least you get damage to it but better hope you have more firepower or it blow your shadowsword up in retaliation.

In bigger games scale starts to turn in favour of shadowswords due to unscalability of strategems but not many plays big enough games for multiple shadowswords and multiple castellans to be a thing.

Slowly trying to get back into the game with Kill Team being the excuse to buy some Scions.

Any ideas for a pure Tempestus Scion list for 8th edition?
Looking to aim for around 1,000 points first.

Any help/advice would be great.

I was thinking of something like:

+Battalion Detachment+

HQ:
1x Tempestor Prime
- Warlord
- The Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius
- Power Fist
- Tempestus Command Rod

1x Tempestor Prime
- Power Fist
- Plasma Pistol

1x Primaris Psyker
- Nightshroud / Psychic Barrier

TROOPS:
3x 5-man Scions Squad
*All 3 squads are equipped with 2x Plasma Guns and Vox-Casters.
All the Tempestors have Plasma Pistols and Chainswords.

ELITES:
1x 3-man Bullgryn Squad
- All have Mauls and Brute Shields

TRANSPORT:
2x Taurox Prime w/ Gatling Cannon
1x Taurox Prime w/ Battle Cannon

This puts me at 995pts!

You lose the Storm Troopers Doctrine if you have the Primaris Psyker and Bullgryns in the same Detachment.

Vox Casters are kind of meh, just keep one Prime close enough to two squads and you're fine anyway, you have enough orders to go around.

tneva82 wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Woof. Whatever house trait is the same as Valhallan mixed with rotate ion shields = 36 damage to my shadowsword (with nightshroud!) after that damn thing walked right up to it and ate my entire army's firepower ... I thought I messed it up at least when I did like 16dmg to it. That thing is terrifying.

Yup it's basically custom made to kill shadowswords and other things of similar type. Or vehicles in general. You basically need 2 shadowswords AND go first or you will lose your shadowsword first. If he goes first that shadowsword goes bum. If you go first at least you get damage to it but better hope you have more firepower or it blow your shadowsword up in retaliation.

In bigger games scale starts to turn in favour of shadowswords due to unscalability of strategems but not many plays big enough games for multiple shadowswords and multiple castellans to be a thing.

I run my shadowsword as Tallarn when i play them (and that was long before Knight Castallen became a thing). I've found a lot of stuff can take down a shadowsword :(

 necron99 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Woof. Whatever house trait is the same as Valhallan mixed with rotate ion shields = 36 damage to my shadowsword (with nightshroud!) after that damn thing walked right up to it and ate my entire army's firepower ... I thought I messed it up at least when I did like 16dmg to it. That thing is terrifying.

Yup it's basically custom made to kill shadowswords and other things of similar type. Or vehicles in general. You basically need 2 shadowswords AND go first or you will lose your shadowsword first. If he goes first that shadowsword goes bum. If you go first at least you get damage to it but better hope you have more firepower or it blow your shadowsword up in retaliation.

In bigger games scale starts to turn in favour of shadowswords due to unscalability of strategems but not many plays big enough games for multiple shadowswords and multiple castellans to be a thing.

I run my shadowsword as Tallarn when i play them (and that was long before Knight Castallen became a thing). I've found a lot of stuff can take down a shadowsword :(

Yep that will at least allow you to dent the knight but make sure you have something else that ~equal(well not quite that much needed) shadowsword AT output if you don't want to lose your shadowsword.

 Kcalehc wrote:
You lose the Storm Troopers Doctrine if you have the Primaris Psyker and Bullgryns in the same Detachment.

Vox Casters are kind of meh, just keep one Prime close enough to two squads and you're fine anyway, you have enough orders to go around.

You won't lose the doctrine. Bullgryn and Psykers are support units that don't impact on you receiving the doctrine - just like Scions don't impact on other regiments getting their bonuses if you add them in.

Kdash wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
You lose the Storm Troopers Doctrine if you have the Primaris Psyker and Bullgryns in the same Detachment.

Vox Casters are kind of meh, just keep one Prime close enough to two squads and you're fine anyway, you have enough orders to go around.

You won't lose the doctrine. Bullgryn and Psykers are support units that don't impact on you receiving the doctrine - just like Scions don't impact on other regiments getting their bonuses if you add them in.

Then have RAW guys go on about the MT entry below support unit paragraph. That's never ending arqument unless GW flat out says how it works

tneva82 wrote:

Kdash wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
You lose the Storm Troopers Doctrine if you have the Primaris Psyker and Bullgryns in the same Detachment.

Vox Casters are kind of meh, just keep one Prime close enough to two squads and you're fine anyway, you have enough orders to go around.

You won't lose the doctrine. Bullgryn and Psykers are support units that don't impact on you receiving the doctrine - just like Scions don't impact on other regiments getting their bonuses if you add them in.

Then have RAW guys go on about the MT entry below support unit paragraph. That's never ending arqument unless GW flat out says how it works

At work so not got the codex to hand, but, I thought the Tempestus section was in a different section to the Auxilla section, which lays out different rulings. (and i believe the Scions section is listed in the codex before Auxila gets mentioned).

Scions can go into any Regiment, but they won’t get a trait. They only get the trait if the regiment is “Militarum Tempestus“. The Auxila section then goes on about how the listed units can be included into an “Astra Militarum” detachment without penalty, but the Auxila don’t get a trait.

Because the Astra Militarum detachment is a Militarum Tempestus detachment, the Scions would have their trait, while the Auxila added in would not penalise the Scions.

Kdash wrote:
Scions can go into any Regiment, but they won’t get a trait. They only get the trait if the regiment is “Militarum Tempestus“. The Auxila section then goes on about how the listed units can be included into an “Astra Militarum” detachment without penalty, but the Auxila don’t get a trait.

Because the Astra Militarum detachment is a Militarum Tempestus detachment, the Scions would have their trait, while the Auxila added in would not penalise the Scions.

Scion says they get trait if every model has the scion keyword. This has caused tons of arquments due to scion start collecting box having commisar. They arque scion text(and I'm pretty sure that was after auxilia) is specific exception to the auxilia rule.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756776.page#9984730

Just one of the many threads that touchesh it. Pretty sure this thread also has had talk about it before.

So be aware you could run into situation where opponent insists no regimental trait for them due to support guys.

How about asking directly to GW? If enough people ask, maybe they will issue an official FAQ paragraph about this issue.

So having recently acquired a shadowsword what's the verdict on the best doctrine for it? Cadian or catachan would both be nice buffs to it's offensive output but tallarn seems pretty useful for making sure it survives the first turn and vahallan for making sure that degrading is less of an issue.

Do not foret about Vostroyan for +1 to hit stratagem

 gbghg wrote:
So having recently acquired a shadowsword what's the verdict on the best doctrine for it? Cadian or catachan would both be nice buffs to it's offensive output but tallarn seems pretty useful for making sure it survives the first turn and vahallan for making sure that degrading is less of an issue.

For firepower there is no better choice than Vostroyan. +1BS on such platform is insane and longer range of those 30 heavy bolter shots helps a lot. However, in current knight-heavy meta tallarn is also nice to hide it first and shoot first.

 gbghg wrote:
So having recently acquired a shadowsword what's the verdict on the best doctrine for it? Cadian or catachan would both be nice buffs to it's offensive output but tallarn seems pretty useful for making sure it survives the first turn and vahallan for making sure that degrading is less of an issue.

Cadian can also use overlapping fields of fire for +1 BS vs a guy that took a wound already. You can also still move and use the relic of lost Cadia to rerolls those 1's.

jaxor1983 wrote:

 gbghg wrote:
So having recently acquired a shadowsword what's the verdict on the best doctrine for it? Cadian or catachan would both be nice buffs to it's offensive output but tallarn seems pretty useful for making sure it survives the first turn and vahallan for making sure that degrading is less of an issue.

Cadian can also use overlapping fields of fire for +1 BS vs a guy that took a wound already. You can also still move and use the relic of lost Cadia to rerolls those 1's.

In theory - yes.

In practice you usually want to split fire from volcano and bolters - in result, not having +1BS to everything. And you have to wound your main target first - so instead of blowing it up with volcano cannon on sight, you waste some other firepower to wound it (and it's usually hard to wound target). And it costs 2CP not 1. Rerolling 1 is nice, but you dont want your big tank to sit in one place. Relic is one-use only but nice - other options to give sword rerols are catachan harker and generic Yarrick (or options from other codexes such as bobby).

With Vostroya you get simple and effective gem making it much more killy and having increased range for free.

So, has anyone got any good leman russ conqueror conversion tips or tricks?

Just use a spare vehicle stormbolter and some green stuff with the Eradicator Cannon. It looks great and it's easy to do.

jaxor1983 wrote:
So, has anyone got any good leman russ conqueror conversion tips or tricks?

There's actually a realy nice 3d printable turret out there. My son printed one for me - looks awesome