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Hey everyone

I am relatively new to these forums, and I have read the rules so sorry if there is already an active thread about this - I was to lazy to look for one

But I am here to discuss the allies matrix in 6th edition. my friend who plays CSM and I (I play Dark Eldar) have been discussing this and can't help that feel the allies matrix is a bit weird/strange.

First instance: Grey Knights have absolutely no battle brothers, whilst they are still part of the Imperium. I mean, after each battle involving Grey Knights where Space marines or Imperial guard are present, the Space Marines get mind wiped whilst the imperial guardsmen just are shot, but still each of the Chapter Masters know of the Grey Knights so they should be able to ally with Space Marines to some extent.

But then it goes the other way with Tau. In my opinion, Tau are one of those idealistic armies that are like really annoying over achievers. In short, the fart rainbows (this is just fluff wise, aside from that I have nothing against the Tau), but somehow Space Marines can get along with them so well, even though they are an alien race trying to expand their empire into the Imperium's territory?! They are also allied with Eldar, who are similar but fart more depressed rainbows and are more willing to get their hands dirty. This Eldar alliance is understandable, but how does an alien race such as the Tau take precedence over Grey Knights, one of the Imperium's own forces??

The other thing me and my friend chatted about was inevitable, the alliance between CSM and Dark Eldar. In the fluff, although Dark Eldar pillage and murder whoever, I can't recall any major blues between CSM and Dark Eldar, yet they are still desperate allies. Also, Chaos Space Marines absolutely hate Space Marines, and Space Marines have had some nasty run ins with Dark Eldar so wouldn't they be allies of convenience because of common enemy?

Bottom line is this relationship isn't as far fetched as Tau over Grey Knights, but I think the races are slightly more compliant with each other than that, even though it is Dark Eldar.

But in Apocalypse games the grudges between armies are thrown out, which is a good rule. Because Apocalypse is one of those games that is meant to be the equivalent to a big party, it's good this rule is in place to maximize the fun. It also works with the fluff, as the concept of Apocalypse is to beat the crap out of you opponent no matter what, and any helping hands are welcome so you don't really care who your allies are, as you just ally based on common enemy.

Anyway I'd just like to see any other opinions on this topic.

Yeah there are some weird combos. Like Tau + Space Marines as battle brothers.

Yeah, i know they had their bro-ment fighting back the hive fleet, but other than that, the Tau and adeptus astartes sorta kinda hate each other (Damocles Gulf, Taros). So i was surprised that they were battle brothers.

There's other weird things, the Ork ally matrix is a little wonky. I was also a bit surprised that eldar and dark eldar were battle brothers. Yes i know sometimes they work together, and they've sorta suspended the racial civil war due to realizing that mass slaughter of eldar on either side is bad.


This is my opinion about a lot of what is going on in the allies matrix - it's a fairly good marketing ploy to get the gamers to dabble in other mini armies they wouldn't have. This is not aimed at the hardcore 40k player who has 2-5 + armies, but the guy that plays 1 army, and this gives him a reason to buy models from another army.

I like it too because it lets me dip a toe into other codexes without having to go whole hog, which i like, so in that respect, it's a marketing idea i actually rather like. I also like the fact that i can basically never for sure tell you what my opponent is going to plop on the table (well, other than Tyranids ).

-- Haight

I'm not a fan of the allies addition in 6th edition. Its Games Workshop's attempt at getting customers to purchase additional armies. Plain & simple.

That said, do I think its awesome that my IG army can add some space marines, sisters of battle etc? Absolutely. Do I? No. Reason being, I feel its cheating, as silly as that seems. It just doesn't feel right. I also like the fact that IG has a weakness (close combat). It means I have to be creative in preventing my opponent from reaching me (assuming he isn't playing Tau/Eldar etc in a predominantly shooty edition). It also segregates nid players. Want to play with a friend who isn't nids? Nope you cannot. No allies of convenience.

Idk, I just feel it wasn't thought out thoroughly, & was just thrown together before the codex was shipped to sell more models.

The main problem that the Dark Eldar have with Chaos is Slaanesh. Slaanesh hungers after *all* Eldar, and unlike the Harlequins, Exodites, and Craftworlders who have protection against soul nommage, when a Dark Eldar dies they get dragged into the palace of the dark prince.

I like the idea - with lots of armies I can mix and match.

Sadly IMO the execution is poor with regards to the Matrix - the Tau/Marine Battle Brothers is plain wrong (*) whilst other match ups that are plainly right are discarded (**). There are alternative martrices on the forum - some of which actaully refelct the fluff far better.

However that being said you can pretty much make up a reason for anyone to ally with anyone else and just allow everyone to be Allies of Convenience with everyone else. Given there are Tryanid mind control and Genestealer cults, Human Ork, Dark Eldar and Eldar Mercenaries, renedgade Gaurd and Astartes. The only ones that I would say are an issue are match ups like Grey Knights with Daemons and Sisters with Chaos.

(*) some people site the fact that on occassion the Astartes have allowed Tau breed Xenos to live during the course of a evacuation as reason for this - but they do the same with other Xenos. They are also more than happy (its part of their very nature) to slaughter the Tau where they stand after a battle. The Enemy of my Enemy........ is my next target

Others cite the professionalism of the Tau as a reason for the two to be "battlebrothers" - again is a bit weak considering that they operate in such different ways and under different mind sets, again the same argument can be made for say Eldar and Marines and certain necron forces and Marines (depending on the latters Overlord).

(**) For no apparent reason the sisters and Black Templars can not work together - except of course as actually described in the source material.............

The Dark Eldar-Eldar thing was actually specifically justified by the devs. Basically, they see it as a sort of "sibling rivalry". They'll fight each other viciously, but if a third party comes in they'll join together to fight it. I'll go look for the source if anybody cares enough.

 Mr Morden wrote:
For no apparent reason the sisters and Black Templars can not work together - except of course as actually described in the source material.............

Indeed. This source, from a codex, has them working together just fine. Allies of convinience level at least.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Vinculus_Crusade#.Ug4vH23BzAw

Of course, since Templars are getting rolled in to the vanilla Marine codex, this has basically been dealt with and they are now allies of convinience. Which is pretty rad because now I can potentially run some alongside my SoBs.
But apparently they may be retaining thier current allies matrix position. Which, yeah, has some issues.

 Troike wrote:
The Dark Eldar-Eldar thing was actually specifically justified by the devs. Basically, they see it as a sort of "sibling rivalry". They'll fight each other viciously, but if a third party comes in they'll join together to fight it. I'll go look for the source if anybody cares enough.

 Mr Morden wrote:
For no apparent reason the sisters and Black Templars can not work together - except of course as actually described in the source material.............

Indeed. This source, from a codex, has them working together just fine. Allies of convinience level at least.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Vinculus_Crusade#.Ug4vH23BzAw

Of course, since Templars are getting rolled in to the vanilla Marine codex, this has basically been dealt with and they are now allies of convinience. Which is pretty rad because now I can potentially run some alongside my SoBs.
But apparently they may be retaining thier current allies matrix position. Which, yeah, has some issues.

And the ever popular Helsreach book has BT and the Sisters fighting side-by-side against the Orks. Sure it was the best partnership, but yeah, allies of convenience at least.

Eldar and Dark Eldar are connected via the harlequins, which ironicly should connect them to the Grey Knights via the Black Library. Which us to say, all three should be battle brothers due to their background fluff. Imperial Guard should technically be able to ally with everyone (IG = local PDF, which can have vonnection with any faction including 'Nids via genestealer cults).

All in all, GW could have fone a better job on this, seeing as they already had pre-existing allies rules back in 3rd Ed that worked fine.

SJ

I am convinced that the Allies Matrix is a great inside joke at GW that we players just aren't privy to.

My advice to the OP is to simply understand that the game is a story first and foremost. The rules are simply interpretations of that story. And, being the type of game that it is, the rules can never be 100% accurate. The game part of it has to be fair and that means some concessions have to be made.

The Allies Matrix is (IMO) unique in that it has virtually nothing to do with the fluff and has everything to do with the game. They've taken a bunch of factions that all have long histories and decades of background and lore, and dumped them into a arrangement of only four categories that don't really do justice to them.

If the Matrix were accurate at all, the Astartes would be Battle Brothers with other Astartes and that is virtually it (conceivably also GK since they are also technically Astartes in that regard). They would be allies of convenience with all other imperial factions, and "Come the Apocalypse with everything else in the game. (It could be argued that they would be Allies of Desperation with Eldar/Tau if the situation was dire enough).

The Eldar would be Allies of Desperation with DE and vice-versa, but then both of those factions would be "come the apocalypse" with everyone else. Again with the possible "desperate" thing with SM.

Guard really don't have a place on the matrix since they are basically taking orders from every other imperial faction and have to pretty much work with whoever they are assigned to. They moment they worship chaos, or join a gene-stealer cult they become "renegades" and are part of a whole different army.

Orks make no sense because none of their relationships would be 2-way. From their angle, they are "allies of convenience" with anyone paying them enough teeth. But all other factions would sooner kill them than look at them (Eldar/Chaos may try to manipulate them for other ends, but that's an alliance of any kind).

Chaos obviously can't ally with anyone but chaos deamons, and they can "buy" orks with teeth or manipulate them psychically, but that's also different.

Tau are communists. Everyone's best friend until they have a strong enough hold and then they just feed them to the kroot. Also not 2-sided. Tau may want to bring humans into the fold, but all the humans represented in the armies we play are hardened veterans that know better than to trust ANY xeno further than you can through them.

Nids... really? everything is just food to them.

necrons... everything is just dust to them,

Haha thanks for all the replies guys!!

Yes I've taken your points on board, although it doesn't quite fit with the fluff or is slightly weird it is a good way to add some element to the game

I was looking through the DE codex and there was one run in with the DE and CSM when some sorcerers tried to break into the Webway and some Kabal found out. Now they are locked in some endless battle.

Games Workshop has so many of these marketing ploys as well, i.e. those rules where an entirely new unit of Daemons can be spawned somehow, although it is logical, it is also a convenient way of making some people buy that extra box of daemons. Clever on GW part, and also it gives people justification to buy another box of little dudes.

I like the ally rules very much. I can get a moving landing pad for my IG blob . I can and I do use the much needed second interceptor unit in a form of a riptide and melta suits help me a lot with anti tank after I sold my vendettas. It is true that some armies are a bit shafted as far as ally go , but this just means people shouldn't play those codices.

My issue with the allies matrix is that in a sub-2k game, if I don't ally I only have 2 HQ slots, yet if I ally, I have 3 HQ slots! Where is the logic in that?

SJ

I like the use of allies. It is nice, if you like varied forces. Granted it is a marketing ploy of GW. But it does harken back to the days of rouge trader, where you could mix and match your force.

The allies rules are the reason why I choose to play the guard this time around. Most combination of any army list.

Both the new SM and the new Tyranid codex seem to allow them to ally with themselves - so much for said "awesome" ally system.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
My issue with the allies matrix is that in a sub-2k game, if I don't ally I only have 2 HQ slots, yet if I ally, I have 3 HQ slots! Where is the logic in that?

The problem is that, to get that 3rd HQ slot, you have to buy a troops choice for them, too.

But, if you work it right, you can fit a lot of stuff in an allies force.
Get a SM captain, and a command squad in a Razorback, for HQ.
Throw a Tactical squad in the Troops slot, and get a Razorback.
Add an Elites Terminator squad to get a Land Raider.
A Thunderfire Cannon for Heavy gets you a Techmarine and a drop pod.
A Landspeeder squadron for Fast.
Taking full squads with basic kit and no upgrades, I got that lot to 1400 points.

I like the basic idea of the Allies rules; it allows some very fluffy force combinations and can make a force look more varied.
The Matrix, though, is just messed up. Most options are okay'ish, but some combos just defy a lot of stuff I've been reading. May as well have left it away entirely and allow everyone to ally with anyone, with the player being obliged to make up a convincing background/argument for why it'd work.

En Excelsis wrote:If the Matrix were accurate at all, the Astartes would be Battle Brothers with other Astartes and that is virtually it. They would be allies of convenience with all other imperial factions, and "Come the Apocalypse with everything else in the game.

Naw, there is some bad blood between specific Chapters, too, just like individual Chapters have a lot of respect for other Imperial factions or do not like them at all...

Look at it this way - I think the matrix has been designed to how easy it is to forge an alliance between the two factions, and how convenient it is.

Example. The Tau Empire are having a hard time battling some hardy 'Nids. Who should they turn to?

Remember here that Tau generally don't have problems with any of the factions if it's "For The Greater Good" tosh

Orks - They could convince some greenskins to help, but the Tau generally don't like the Orks. Is it really necessary?
So Orks are considered allies of convenience.

Meanwhile some local Space Marines might be the ticket instead. Sure there is some bad blood between them, but both factions are more than willing to side with each other if something threatens them both, whereas a faction like the Orks generally don't care who is by their side (too bad most factions do care about Orks being by their side ) - Orks live to fight.
So, Space Marines are battle brothers to the Tau. very little in the way of convincing between them is needed to form an alliance.

I guess the matrix has a few rough edges, but if you look at it in this manner, you might understand why it has been done like that. Not saying it works every time, but most. And don't forget this is a game, and the writers will always try to give you the most options for your hobby (even if it leaves you more out of pocket )

General Annoyance wrote:
Look at it this way - I think the matrix has been designed to how easy it is to forge an alliance between the two factions, and how convenient it is.

Example. The Tau Empire are having a hard time battling some hardy 'Nids. Who should they turn to?

Remember here that Tau generally don't have problems with any of the factions if it's "For The Greater Good" tosh

Orks - They could convince some greenskins to help, but the Tau generally don't like the Orks. Is it really necessary?
So Orks are considered allies of convenience.

Meanwhile some local Space Marines might be the ticket instead. Sure there is some bad blood between them, but both factions are more than willing to side with each other if something threatens them both, whereas a faction like the Orks generally don't care who is by their side (too bad most factions do care about Orks being by their side ) - Orks live to fight.
So, Space Marines are battle brothers to the Tau. very little in the way of convincing between them is needed to form an alliance.

I guess the matrix has a few rough edges, but if you look at it in this manner, you might understand why it has been done like that. Not saying it works every time, but most. And don't forget this is a game, and the writers will always try to give you the most options for your hobby (even if it leaves you more out of pocket )

Nope the situation you describe (which is totally legit) is a clear case of Allies of Convenience (Tau/Guard, Tau/Marines, Tau/Eldar etc) as I noted before the Battle Brother argument does not ride for me - the Astartes may fight alongside Xenos scum - but they are still Xenos Scum - they may even let them live after a battle but they are absolutely not Battle Borthers. Now a Guard or Sororitas unit - ie Imperial Human unit that does the same and fights well - well they are worthy of trust, respect and honour.............

So, Space Marines are battle brothers to the Tau. very little in the way of convincing between them is needed to form an alliance...

well little except betraying their sacred duty, their nature and everything thaey have been indoctronated with They will do it if they have to - but only if they absolutely have to.

@Mr Morden - Before I start I'm gonna say I can't quote big stuff because I can't cut the stuff I want on a tablet

I see exactly what you mean, maybe that example was one of the rough edges

however I am still sticking to my somewhat now rather rusty guns after reading how the alliances are described in the rulebook.

the book describes BB's as "two or more armies striving for a common goal" while convenience is described "the tides of war can often throw unlikely allies together to work towards a common cause". this seems to answer a big portion of the colours in the matrix (except, notably, the Tau and SM one - damn! )

Eldar/Tau - no reason why these two can't trust each other - Battle Brothers.
IG/rest of the imperium - Obvious
IG/Orks - your "common cause" bond - Convenience

and so on.... as far as I can see....

as for the xenocidal scum whatnot, the more broad sighted commander can see them as "useful xenocidal scum". for the time of the alliance they could be seen as more trustworthy allies to the astartes and the rest of the imperium.

and this brings me to SOB - perhaps it could be seen that, due to the sister's fanatisicm, they do not trust anyone outside their own organisation.

I still agree with you that there are some ridiculous combo's - GK being "convenience" with the astartes, but perhaps again that might be because of inquisitor's great distrust for everyone except themselves.

sounds familiar

I would try to explain it a bit more, but we would be here all night, and that uncertainty seems to explain the matrix's flaw - vagueness. its just plain vague, but if you look into the alliance you want to make in detail, you can often see why it's there on the table - it just "works".