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Captain Sicarius is the captain of the second company in M41. we all know that.

Tirus seems to be wearing Second Company colours and is referred to as Captain all the way through the game, and the game is implicitly set in a time period definitively when Sicarius should be in command of the Second Company.

However I propose a compromise that does not countermand the fluff AND allows everyone to be happy:

Sicarius was off duty for months after "The Damnos Incident" and needed to heal extensively after that brutal campaign. In his place Titus was promoted to lead the Company in his stead until Sicarius could return to command duty.

Titus has already been stated as not having been in command long, and his mentor Captain Trajan may well have been a captain of another company.


It's just an idea. but it fits the fluff.



All they have to do now is bring Titus back as a Grey Knight in Space Marine 2.....

I suppose that is one way to work around the conflict. It should be kept in mind, however, that the studio creating the game publicly stated that it happens in a "parallel timeline" and thus is not even intended to tie into the Codex fluff and its role for Sicarius.
Don't let that stop you from trying to mesh both accounts for your personal interpretation, though - artistic licence with the background works both ways, and we as readers and gamers are granted just the same leeway as novel authors and game designers.

I assumed that the game took place before the 'current' snapshot of the timeline: say, 222.M41 or something. Does the game specify otherwise?

What it actually came down to was copy rights. THQ was able to create a character free from any images, lore and generalized fluff by building their own character into the game.

Corennus wrote: All they have to do now is bring Titus back as a Grey Knight in Space Marine 2.....

Pffft.... That man is one of Khorne's greatest champions, whether he realizes it now or not.

Stormfather wrote:I assumed that the game took place before the 'current' snapshot of the timeline: say, 222.M41 or something. Does the game specify otherwise?

One of the wikis has a fairly good summary regarding this issue:

"Titus's gold armor trim and a Chapter 6 discussion with Squad Solinus (identified as a 2nd Company squad in the 5th edition Space Marines Codex) mark him as the 2nd Company Captain, which raises some timeline questions, as the current Captain of the 2nd Company is – and has been at least since 855.M41 – one Cato Sicarius. Since Sidonus lost his arm to Tyranids, it must be after the Hive Fleet Behemoth invasion (stopped in 745.M41), and since Sidonus has served for 225 years, it must be earlier than 970.M41. Titus mentions the Aurelian Crusade (the campaign of Dawn of War II) during the game, so Space Marine must happen after that."
- http://spacemarine.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Titus

This is further complicated by the fact that Cato Sicarius has an established predecessor, Captain Agemman (mentioned in the 3E C:SM).

 Maenus_Rajhana wrote:

Corennus wrote: All they have to do now is bring Titus back as a Grey Knight in Space Marine 2.....

Pffft.... That man is one of Khorne's greatest champions, whether he realizes it now or not.

Alaric proves that being a champion of Khorne doesn't bar you from being a Grey Knight.

I just assumed it took place after Sicarius either fell or rose to chapter master, some time in M42. Wouldn't be that much of a strethc considering we don't have any dates to go y.

Back when the Space Marine forums were still up, THQSledgehammer posted that SM took place in an alternate reality where Titus was current 2nd company captain. Unfortunately, the forums went down forever ago.

Fortunately we've got the waybackmachine for such cases - see my first post.

 Lynata wrote:

This is further complicated by the fact that Cato Sicarius has an established predecessor, Captain Agemman (mentioned in the 3E C:SM).

Agemann, captain of the first? I'm intrigued. How does that happen then?

I wasn't aware that DOWII took place in M41; if there are any references please show, as I am quite intrigued.

But the way I saw it was that the whole of DOW - DOWII: Retribution could have occured somewhere around M40 - early M41, which gives an ample amount of time for the Graia Campaign to happen, and Sicarius to rise to the 2nd Captain of the Ultramarines, and Graia got ate

4oursword wrote:Agemann, captain of the first? I'm intrigued. How does that happen then?

Well, Agemman was Captain of the 2nd, then was promoted to 1st Company Captain when his predecessor (one Saul Invictus) died, and Sicarius followed to replace him as Captain of the 2nd.

I'm going by Lexicanum now, though, as I'm still in the office. I can take a look at the Codex when I get back home to confirm - Lexicanum isn't a source itself, after all, merely a (not 100% reliable) index.

 Lynata wrote:
Fortunately we've got the waybackmachine for such cases - see my first post.

You expect me to read an entire thread (yes, ALL 6 or so posts) before posting myself? Shame on you.

Well, I've taken a look at the Codex, and it appears Lexicanum failed me once again. There's nothing in the 5E 'dex about Captain Invictus' death, in spite of the article citing a page as the source for this claim. There's also nothing in the 5E 'dex about Agemman ever having commanded the 2nd. I'm really confused how such misleading information ends up in the articles (given that people will generally expect a sourced claim to be "true"), but it serves to reinforce my opinion of 40k wikis in general.

However, at least my own memory did not betray me this time. The 3rd Edition Codex indeed features a "snapshot" of the Chapter dated 745.M41, and in it, Sicarius leads the 5th Company, Agemman the 2nd, and Invictus the 1st.
With the 5E Codex featuring a "snapshot" of the Chapter in 999.M41 that has Agemman in the 1st and Sicarius in the 2nd, it can be surmised that battle casualties resulted in promotions throughout the ranks of the Chapter's officer corps.

TheSGC wrote:You expect me to read an entire thread (yes, ALL 6 or so posts) before posting myself? Shame on you.

Sometimes I'm just too naive for this world.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, I've taken a look at the Codex, and it appears Lexicanum failed me once again. There's nothing in the 5E 'dex about Captain Invictus' death, in spite of the article citing a page as the source for this claim. There's also nothing in the 5E 'dex about Agemman ever having commanded the 2nd. I'm really confused how such misleading information ends up in the articles (given that people will generally expect a sourced claim to be "true"), but it serves to reinforce my opinion of 40k wikis in general.

However, at least my own memory did not betray me this time. The 3rd Edition Codex indeed features a "snapshot" of the Chapter dated 745.M41, and in it, Sicarius leads the 5th Company, Agemman the 2nd, and Invictus the 1st.
With the 5E Codex featuring a "snapshot" of the Chapter in 999.M41 that has Agemman in the 1st and Sicarius in the 2nd, it can be surmised that battle casualties resulted in promotions throughout the ranks of the Chapter's officer corps.

TheSGC wrote:You expect me to read an entire thread (yes, ALL 6 or so posts) before posting myself? Shame on you.

Sometimes I'm just too naive for this world.

In the chapter aproved collection from 2001 there are stats for Invictus, and details of his death. Page 123. Long story short: he died in the battle of Macagge defending the polar fortress.

Nevelon wrote:In the chapter aproved collection from 2001 there are stats for Invictus, and details of his death. Page 123. Long story short: he died in the battle of Macagge defending the polar fortress.

Ah, very nice. This even fits to the claim on Lexicanum, though it is incorrectly sourced.

Thanks for the addition.

I've assumed that it takes place in M42, possibly after Sicarius has been promoted again. Since this game takes place after Dawn of War 2, and considering the events in that game, it has to be in M42. Hive Fleet Leviathan appeared in the last year of M41, and the splinter fleet that attacked Aurelia was part of Leviathan (given the coloration).

The Blood Ravens that appear in Space Marine also don't use the Ravens' original creed "knowledge is power, guard it well." They instead use Gabriel Angelos's new creed from Chaos Rising and Retribution "None Shall Find us Wanting".

Given that Retribution was 10 years after Chaos Rising, it is almost certainly in M42. So setting up Titus as Cato's successor to the 2nd Company seems like the best solution.

As for the Graia discrepancy, the solution here is to just assume that it is a different Graia. More than one town can share the same name, why can't planets? Especially in a setting that loves to forget entire worlds in rounding errors.

It's possible. GW itself clearly refuses to move past 999.M41 as they wish to keep the 13th Black Crusade locked in as the pivotal moment at which the fate of the galaxy is decided, but I could easily see outsourced products "sneaking" later dates past the review if it's not clearly stated but instead requires "calculations" like the ones presented in this thread. Didn't something similar happen with some Black Library novel already?

If Relic were still around, I'd suggest you present your solution to them - perhaps then they would update their "alternate timeline" statement.

Either way, I suppose you have found a viable solution for those who want to incorporate this game's fluff and the idea of moving past the M41 barrier into their interpretation of the setting.

Apparently the Ciaphas Cain novels are written in-universe in the early years of M42, as Cain's memoirs.

I assumed that Space Marines would only rarely move company, with sergeants from 2-9 occasionally being promoted to the 1st, then returning to command or Captaincy positions when the position opened. It's interesting that Sicarius leads a company he wasn't a member of if he once led the 5th. Oh well.

 lcmiracle wrote:
But the way I saw it was that the whole of DOW - DOWII: Retribution could have occured somewhere around M40 - early M41

Not if the game developers are following GW's timeline. Tau, Tyranids and Necrons didn't show up until the latter half of M41.

Anfauglir wrote:Not if the game developers are following GW's timeline.

Which their spokesperson said they didn't.

It's probably one of those cases where you're bound to get disappointed when you look too closely at the details. At least their stories themselves are cool (though I didn't play DoW2, only DoW and the SM game).

4oursword wrote:I assumed that Space Marines would only rarely move company, with sergeants from 2-9 occasionally being promoted to the 1st, then returning to command or Captaincy positions when the position opened.

The way I understood it, the Marines are less looking for seniority, but rather what you're good at. The average Space Marine is supposed to do a little bit of everything during his time of service, starting in the Scout Company, then moving to the support units in the Reserves and becoming a heavy weapons specialist, driving vehicles for his Battle-Brothers, etc.

Promotions of rank are permanent, yet there's also a track of "secondary promotions", so to say, running from Scouts to Reserves to Battle Company, with the creme de la creme serving in the 1st. A Marine who never gets promoted in rank will eventually end up as a rank-and-file Marine in the 1st Company by valour of experience. At any point in this progression, however, a Marine can get sidelined for a promotion to Sergeant or Captain, or transfer into the Supernumaries (Librarium, Apothecarion, etc). The problem is, the Astartes are looking for this kind of talent early. The longer a Marine evades this sort of promotion in actual rank (rather than company membership), the more he shows that he's just better at doing a grunt's work.

Which ultimately means that the 1st and 2nd Battle Companies are full of infantry whose records indicate they'd be gakky leaders. I imagine a promotion is still possible, just not very likely. There's bound to be a reason why they were not selected earlier, so Chapter command feels more at ease promoting someone from another company who has at least demonstrated he's capable of doing this job.

At least that's how I understood it to work.

 Lynata wrote:
It's possible. GW itself clearly refuses to move past 999.M41 as they wish to keep the 13th Black Crusade locked in as the pivotal moment at which the fate of the galaxy is decided, but I could easily see outsourced products "sneaking" later dates past the review if it's not clearly stated but instead requires "calculations" like the ones presented in this thread. Didn't something similar happen with some Black Library novel already?

If Relic were still around, I'd suggest you present your solution to them - perhaps then they would update their "alternate timeline" statement.

Either way, I suppose you have found a viable solution for those who want to incorporate this game's fluff and the idea of moving past the M41 barrier into their interpretation of the setting.

Relic is still around and still has the license for 40k, although it's no longer absolutely exclusive as space hulk shows. It just jumped ship to Sega when it became clear that the S.S THQ was going down like the Titanic.

Oh! I wonder if this means if we'll ever have a sequel to Space Marine, or a DoW3. Might be cool.

 Kain wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
It's possible. GW itself clearly refuses to move past 999.M41 as they wish to keep the 13th Black Crusade locked in as the pivotal moment at which the fate of the galaxy is decided, but I could easily see outsourced products "sneaking" later dates past the review if it's not clearly stated but instead requires "calculations" like the ones presented in this thread. Didn't something similar happen with some Black Library novel already?

If Relic were still around, I'd suggest you present your solution to them - perhaps then they would update their "alternate timeline" statement.

Either way, I suppose you have found a viable solution for those who want to incorporate this game's fluff and the idea of moving past the M41 barrier into their interpretation of the setting.

Relic is still around and still has the license for 40k, although it's no longer absolutely exclusive as space hulk shows. It just jumped ship to Sega when it became clear that the S.S THQ was going down like the Titanic.

Neither Relic nor Sega (nor GW for that matter) have announced that they have a 40k license at this time. Its certainly possible, but it is just speculation at this point.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
It's possible. GW itself clearly refuses to move past 999.M41 as they wish to keep the 13th Black Crusade locked in as the pivotal moment at which the fate of the galaxy is decided, but I could easily see outsourced products "sneaking" later dates past the review if it's not clearly stated but instead requires "calculations" like the ones presented in this thread. Didn't something similar happen with some Black Library novel already?

If Relic were still around, I'd suggest you present your solution to them - perhaps then they would update their "alternate timeline" statement.

Either way, I suppose you have found a viable solution for those who want to incorporate this game's fluff and the idea of moving past the M41 barrier into their interpretation of the setting.

Relic is still around and still has the license for 40k, although it's no longer absolutely exclusive as space hulk shows. It just jumped ship to Sega when it became clear that the S.S THQ was going down like the Titanic.

Neither Relic nor Sega (nor GW for that matter) have announced that they have a 40k license at this time. Its certainly possible, but it is just speculation at this point.

Given that they never stated it was lost in the downfall of THQ It's much safer to assume they still have it. GW would be silly to cut it just because THQ failed (it was never DOW's fault that the company tanked anyway).

 Kain wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
It's possible. GW itself clearly refuses to move past 999.M41 as they wish to keep the 13th Black Crusade locked in as the pivotal moment at which the fate of the galaxy is decided, but I could easily see outsourced products "sneaking" later dates past the review if it's not clearly stated but instead requires "calculations" like the ones presented in this thread. Didn't something similar happen with some Black Library novel already?

If Relic were still around, I'd suggest you present your solution to them - perhaps then they would update their "alternate timeline" statement.

Either way, I suppose you have found a viable solution for those who want to incorporate this game's fluff and the idea of moving past the M41 barrier into their interpretation of the setting.

Relic is still around and still has the license for 40k, although it's no longer absolutely exclusive as space hulk shows. It just jumped ship to Sega when it became clear that the S.S THQ was going down like the Titanic.

Neither Relic nor Sega (nor GW for that matter) have announced that they have a 40k license at this time. Its certainly possible, but it is just speculation at this point.

Given that they never stated it was lost in the downfall of THQ It's much safer to assume they still have it. GW would be silly to cut it just because THQ failed (it was never DOW's fault that the company tanked anyway).

That's not how licenses work. Especially since THQ held an exclusive license and that clearly is not how GW is doing things with the 40k license at this point. Its pretty obvious that if Sega/Relic were to show interest in making another 40k that GW would give them a license in a heartbeat, all I'm saying is that we have had no word either way so it's best to just wait and see.

Sega does have the rights to Warhammer Fantasy battle, and Creative Assembly is working on a total war style WFB game. It isn't too much of a stretch to hope that they pick up a license to make DOW3 with Relic.

I like the narrative that Space Marine happens after the present day and Cato has been killed in battle(good riddance, fething D-bag!) and Titus is his replacement.

The other possibility, that Sicarus now leads the Ultramarines after Calgar's death is just as repulsive as the first is awesome.