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Hello

I have been thinking about the concept of a thunderfire cannon heavy army, by taking at least two in 1000 points. Is this viable or competitive, taking this many thunderfire cannons? Is it also worth maxing out on thunderfires, and taking the full four (3 in the main detatchment, 1 in an allied detatchment) in 1500 points? I'd like to know what the general consensus on Dakka is on this

Cheers

EDIT: Clarification, the chapter tactics that are being used are the Iron Hands one.

It entirely depends on whether you want anything else from the HS section. As there are some things in there, this may limit the possible number of thunderfires you can take.

Also which chapter trait are you using? IF and Ultra both want some devastators, so that limits you in this way, whereas the rest don't care so much, and give you free reign on the choices.

I would go for 1 or 2, depending on my army. Given I'm currently running an ultramarines successor, I would only take 1, as I have 2 lascannon devastator squads. Should I run a different chapter I would run 2.

I personally own 3 (2 painted, 1 unbuilt). I think 1 or 2 are optimal personally as otherwise you start running into diminishing returns. I've found them being changed to multiple barrage a bit hit and miss (literally), as if your opponent isn't clustered and you don't get a hit with the first shot you have good odds of doing nothing.

Don't forget to use them against vehicles if there are no better targets. Immobilizing a Land Raider with Tremor can be very funny.

Do it - but you need to remember to focus on two things;

1) Troops (to synergie with TFC's) but this is true of any army list

2) Anti-Air. Your valuable heavy supports are being used. Limits ones options.

I believe 2 is the right answer on most cases.
One can easily be destroyed or miss (the new rules are better if you roll a hit but much worse if you scatter 6+ inches). 2 give you great versatility and options.
1. you have 2 bolstered ruins where you can place objectives and camp safer.
2. you can slow down a greater chunk of the army walking towards you.
3. since it hits side armor now, everything changes. remember that 12 AV front chimera that you could not scratch the paintjob? Now you can wreck it with one Thunderfire and use the other to massacre the exposed guardsmen.

Taking 3 or 4 really takes away a lot of competitive choices (centurions, devs, stormravens, predators) and marines lists excel when they have options and different courses of action available.
The thunderfire is awesome but can not threaten all targets. If you took 3 or 4 you will run put of eligible targets unless your meta is full of footslogging orks and tyranids

In a standard list (1500 to 2000), if I had them, I would run 2, as they provide the firepower but leave a heavy slot for something different that fills another role e.g. anti-tank that TFC don't help much with.

Razerous wrote:
Do it - but you need to remember to focus on two things;

1) Troops (to synergie with TFC's) but this is true of any army list

2) Anti-Air. Your valuable heavy supports are being used. Limits ones options.

Eh the hunter is pretty terrible anyway due to no interceptor, so no big loss there. Just take ADL or Mortis contemptor as an elite. Yes I know there are still hold outs with using FW but it really does help vs fliers.

I've found one TFC is plenty. The techmarine can now bolster any terrain, not just ruins, so that is a good boost but between the sheer number of bolters a marine army can bring I usually have plenty of anti-infantry firepower. I need my heavies to fill other niches and usually end up running gravcannon centurions and 4x missile devestators instead of a second TFC.

I run 3, because I have anti tank everywhere else in my list. Melta bikes, dropping ironclads, stormtalons with lascannons, lascannons in tactical units and on razorbacks.

A thunderfire cannon is basically a swiss army knife that can't hurt heavy tanks, but can hurt anything with a side armor of 12 or under. Used properly, it decimates.

Pro tip: Tank shock units together so the TFC hits them easier.

 Kirasu wrote:
Mortis contemptor as an elite.

Unfortunately the Mortis pattern contemptor is a heavy choice.

Which really helps in the already jam-packed heavy support section of the marine codex.

The Imperial Guard barely has as many choices as the Marines do in that slot!

Honestly, if I was a marine player, my head would spin just trying to pick which heavies to take.

Incorrect, the Mortis contemptor is now an elite. It has been changed for the 5th time in the new FW book. It's now WS4, BS4 for the same cost as before (instead of BS5) and an elite. They brought it in line with other contemptors and allows you to make crazy lists with multiple contemptors and multiple TFCs

1. I want my other two slots free for flyers or for anti-aircraft.

As a Salamanders player, I only need TFCs in case I wind up facing an army with far more troops than my flamers can handle, usually only seen in ork and IG gropo armies, or with Tyranids.

 Jimsolo wrote:
1. I want my other two slots free for flyers or for anti-aircraft.

As a Salamanders player, I only need TFCs in case I wind up facing an army with far more troops than my flamers can handle, usually only seen in ork and IG gropo armies, or with Tyranids.

This. I always make a good use Heavy Support by taking things like Tri-Las Predators and Devastator Squads, which work better in pairs than a TFC would.

I'd take TFC as a single extra unit that serves to hammer away at a scoring unit in hard cover on an objective all day, you really don't need 2 to achieve this.

I voted for 2 as that's all I own and think it's actually the optimal number. Although I think 3 very rarely will run out if use and gives you that backup if you can't get what you need done with the first two. If I could afford another one right now I'd probably get it just to have but such is life.

 Kirasu wrote:

Razerous wrote:

2) Anti-Air. Your valuable heavy supports are being used. Limits ones options.

Eh the hunter is pretty terrible anyway due to no interceptor, so no big loss there. Just take ADL or Mortis contemptor as an elite. Yes I know there are still hold outs with using FW but it really does help vs fliers.

If the Hunter/Stalker had intercepter, they would be far too good for 70 points. Without Intercepter, 8 snapshot autocannon shots are about as effective as 2 BS4 autocannon shots. A predator with no upgrades is 70 points and has only 2 autocannon shots. The hunter gets signifigant increases in firepower against skimmers and flyers. So it isnt terrible, it is just terrible for the slot if you are considering maxing out heavy support.

 Exergy wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

Razerous wrote:

2) Anti-Air. Your valuable heavy supports are being used. Limits ones options.

Eh the hunter is pretty terrible anyway due to no interceptor, so no big loss there. Just take ADL or Mortis contemptor as an elite. Yes I know there are still hold outs with using FW but it really does help vs fliers.

If the Hunter/Stalker had intercepter, they would be far too good for 70 points. Without Intercepter, 8 snapshot autocannon shots are about as effective as 2 BS4 autocannon shots. A predator with no upgrades is 70 points and has only 2 autocannon shots. The hunter gets signifigant increases in firepower against skimmers and flyers. So it isnt terrible, it is just terrible for the slot if you are considering maxing out heavy support.

Except last I checked it only gets 4 shots, not 8.

 Kirasu wrote:
Incorrect, the Mortis contemptor is now an elite. It has been changed for the 5th time in the new FW book. It's now WS4, BS4 for the same cost as before (instead of BS5) and an elite. They brought it in line with other contemptors and allows you to make crazy lists with multiple contemptors and multiple TFCs

Which is book is that? I'm going off of Aeronautica and Apocalypse 2nd Edition, but now I'm curious. This would change my future purchases.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Incorrect, the Mortis contemptor is now an elite. It has been changed for the 5th time in the new FW book. It's now WS4, BS4 for the same cost as before (instead of BS5) and an elite. They brought it in line with other contemptors and allows you to make crazy lists with multiple contemptors and multiple TFCs

Which is book is that? I'm going off of Aeronautica and Apocalypse 2nd Edition, but now I'm curious. This would change my future purchases.

He is referring to the most up to date book, IA: Apocalypse.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

Razerous wrote:

2) Anti-Air. Your valuable heavy supports are being used. Limits ones options.

Eh the hunter is pretty terrible anyway due to no interceptor, so no big loss there. Just take ADL or Mortis contemptor as an elite. Yes I know there are still hold outs with using FW but it really does help vs fliers.

If the Hunter/Stalker had intercepter, they would be far too good for 70 points. Without Intercepter, 8 snapshot autocannon shots are about as effective as 2 BS4 autocannon shots. A predator with no upgrades is 70 points and has only 2 autocannon shots. The hunter gets signifigant increases in firepower against skimmers and flyers. So it isnt terrible, it is just terrible for the slot if you are considering maxing out heavy support.

Except last I checked it only gets 4 shots, not 8.

4 that are twin linked, which is again very similar to just 2 shots at BS4. It can get 8 shots at two different targets

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Incorrect, the Mortis contemptor is now an elite. It has been changed for the 5th time in the new FW book. It's now WS4, BS4 for the same cost as before (instead of BS5) and an elite. They brought it in line with other contemptors and allows you to make crazy lists with multiple contemptors and multiple TFCs

Which is book is that? I'm going off of Aeronautica and Apocalypse 2nd Edition, but now I'm curious. This would change my future purchases.

He is referring to the most up to date book, IA: Apocalypse.

Well that's part of my confusion. The latest IA: Apoc book is IA: Apoc 2nd Edition, which has the Mortis Contemptor as a heavy support choice.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Incorrect, the Mortis contemptor is now an elite. It has been changed for the 5th time in the new FW book. It's now WS4, BS4 for the same cost as before (instead of BS5) and an elite. They brought it in line with other contemptors and allows you to make crazy lists with multiple contemptors and multiple TFCs

Which is book is that? I'm going off of Aeronautica and Apocalypse 2nd Edition, but now I'm curious. This would change my future purchases.

He is referring to the most up to date book, IA: Apocalypse.

Well that's part of my confusion. The latest IA: Apoc book is IA: Apoc 2nd Edition, which has the Mortis Contemptor as a heavy support choice.

No it isn't; go check ForgeWorld's site.

Well, I found it. Completely forgot they released the new book shortly after GW's apoc.

Being moved to elites would free up the heavies for thunderfires more then.

Yeah, the contemptor's rules change every 3 months due to FW constantly releasing new books.. some with the same name as older books!

 Kirasu wrote:
Yeah, the contemptor's rules change every 3 months due to FW constantly releasing new books.. some with the same name as older books!

Yeah, that's where my confusion stemmed from.

Shame it lost its BS5, makes the Keres cannons a little less appealing.

I'd certainly think about taking one or two thunderfires in a list if your anti-air is covered by other units, like stormtalons or contemptors.

 Kirasu wrote:
Incorrect, the Mortis contemptor is now an elite. It has been changed for the 5th time in the new FW book. It's now WS4, BS4 for the same cost as before (instead of BS5) and an elite. They brought it in line with other contemptors and allows you to make crazy lists with multiple contemptors and multiple TFCs

Are you kidding me?

Please tell me you are kidding.

Can you add servitor's to the Thunderfire crew since it is manned by a Techmarine. Would be interesting to throw in 2-3 Plasma Cannons along with the Barrage from the cannon.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Incorrect, the Mortis contemptor is now an elite. It has been changed for the 5th time in the new FW book. It's now WS4, BS4 for the same cost as before (instead of BS5) and an elite. They brought it in line with other contemptors and allows you to make crazy lists with multiple contemptors and multiple TFCs

Are you kidding me?

Please tell me you are kidding.

I'm not, this is its 4th version of the rules. BS4, AV10 rear armor were the main changes and it's now an elite (same cost). So you can spam them a lot easier and win! It's great because most SM elites are awful now.

Can you add servitor's to the Thunderfire crew since it is manned by a Techmarine. Would be interesting to throw in 2-3 Plasma Cannons along with the Barrage from the cannon.[/quote

Being an artillery piece, the tech marine is not an IC so it can't join anything and no the servitor entry says what counts, and that is just a Techmarine and/or Master of the Forge. The thunderfire does not include a techmarine instead it has a techmarine gunner

thanks Kirasu!

found a site to get them for cheap, and now want to run 4

there my anti infintry,

have 3 squads of melta LotD for anti tank

lots of PCs on tac marines for anti MeQ and TeQs

and a grav cammand squad for riptides wriathnights and the like.