Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been giving this some thought, and I can't figure why I would ever want to take a power fist over a thunder hammer, where one was available. It's only a few points difference and the additional concussive ability of the thunder hammer seems great for the points.

Of course, this doesn't take into account the aesthetics of the model, personal preference, or other things, but I'm curious to know everyone's thoughts.

You pretty much nailed it. the only difference is points

for a bit more you get concussive and that is about it. really the only time that matters is against T5+ and or Eternal warrior as generally st 8 will insta paste anything less.

You take the power fist because it's five points cheaper. So few tings that you would want to charge survive a good hit from a power fist that having concussive doesn't matter that much.

I also perfer the fist. Concussive is nice, but is it worth the 5 points? I don't think so.

If I want concussive, I'll just look to any of the 30 grav gun shots my army has per turn.

I have problems paying for power fists as it is. 5 -more- points for something that is only situationally useful is too much for me.

I do like how they look though...

Power Fists on anything that's not an HQ choice, Thunder Hammers for stuff that might actually get some use out of the concussive, such as Chapter Masters and the like.

To be honest, I happily pay the extra 5 points for a TH just for the coolness. Objectively, though, I have to agree that a PF is better on anything that isn't a CM or captain at least.

For me it's a point thing, as I like cheaper HQs.

Hammers look really, really cool. No question.

Mechanics wise, a Thunderhammer means you assume you are going to see round 2 of a close combat. I recommend making different assumptions as a general.

Any vehicle you assault should probably be dead after taking a STR8+ hit to rear armor, as well as all the other attacks from the unit, so I don't really care for the crew shaken result either.

In general, if you can choose between TH and PF, then take the PF because you can probably do more with those 5pts (or more) than you can with Concussive in a typical game.

Plus, compare it on the reverse side of the spectrum to a power maul, which also has concussive. There is no way that it's worth it to take a power maul for concussive and to save a few points, so it doesn't make sense to spend a few points for concussive on your power fist.

When concussive is important, it's really important. If you're adding this weapon to a really expensive HQ unit, it's worth making sure that if combat goes multiple rounds, you don't lose your investment without at least taking theirs out with it. Nothing worse than having an epic round of combat between your Chapter Master and their warlord/deamon/MC end with their dude having 1 HP left and killing your dude in a higher initiative step. It's well worth the 5 points to prevent that kind of thing from happening to your 200+ point purchase. On cheaper models, save the points. But on an expensive lord, give them the tools they need to best ensure thay can compete against all comparably costed cc warlords.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
When concussive is important, it's really important. If you're adding this weapon to a really expensive HQ unit, it's worth making sure that if combat goes multiple rounds, you don't lose your investment without at least taking theirs out with it. Nothing worse than having an epic round of combat between your Chapter Master and their warlord/deamon/MC end with their dude having 1 HP left and killing your dude in a higher initiative step. It's well worth the 5 points to prevent that kind of thing from happening to your 200+ point purchase. On cheaper models, save the points. But on an expensive lord, give them the tools they need to best ensure thay can compete against all comparably costed cc warlords.

This is exactly how I feel.

The combination of AP on melee weapons, as well as challenge rules changed the way you have to build HQs. PFs and THs both have AP2, which is nice, but the issue then is initiative. I think a lot of people under estimate how important having initiative is. You used to be able to hide a powerfist, so I1 didn't matter too much, so long as the whole unit wasn't blown off the table before the PF went.

Now, you've got challenges, so hiding that I1 PF isn't as much of an option. And if you get stuck in a challenge where you're going last, it really hurts since there's a good chance you'll die at a higher initiative step.

It's why I like the Burning Blade over a PF, even though you pay so much more for it. You're getting your shredding in at I5, versus I1. It's also why I like THs, and like it more than Burning Blade when it comes to challenges. TH not only gets the bonus of being S8 AP2, but also, with concussive, means that anything, from I2 to I10, is striking with you that next turn, provided one of those wounds hits home.

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, compare it on the reverse side of the spectrum to a power maul, which also has concussive. There is no way that it's worth it to take a power maul for concussive and to save a few points, so it doesn't make sense to spend a few points for concussive on your power fist.

That's a terrible analogy because the power maul is not AP2 and is at a completely different points cost.

Fist is cheaper.

 DogofWar1 wrote:
The combination of AP on melee weapons, as well as challenge rules changed the way you have to build HQs. PFs and THs both have AP2, which is nice, but the issue then is initiative. I think a lot of people under estimate how important having initiative is. You used to be able to hide a powerfist, so I1 didn't matter too much, so long as the whole unit wasn't blown off the table before the PF went.

Now, you've got challenges, so hiding that I1 PF isn't as much of an option. And if you get stuck in a challenge where you're going last, it really hurts since there's a good chance you'll die at a higher initiative step.

It's why I like the Burning Blade over a PF, even though you pay so much more for it. You're getting your shredding in at I5, versus I1. It's also why I like THs, and like it more than Burning Blade when it comes to challenges. TH not only gets the bonus of being S8 AP2, but also, with concussive, means that anything, from I2 to I10, is striking with you that next turn, provided one of those wounds hits home.

This is one of the big things I'm getting used to, since I've basically "skipped over" 5th edition completely. It almost seems like power fists, thunder hammers, and even power axes aren't really worth it on Veteran Sergeants and the squad-upgrade, single-wound characters. I wonder though if the things that would be easily shredding through those Veteran Sergeants in a challenge would be typically striking before them based on intiative anyway?

 mazzHammer wrote:

 DogofWar1 wrote:
The combination of AP on melee weapons, as well as challenge rules changed the way you have to build HQs. PFs and THs both have AP2, which is nice, but the issue then is initiative. I think a lot of people under estimate how important having initiative is. You used to be able to hide a powerfist, so I1 didn't matter too much, so long as the whole unit wasn't blown off the table before the PF went.

Now, you've got challenges, so hiding that I1 PF isn't as much of an option. And if you get stuck in a challenge where you're going last, it really hurts since there's a good chance you'll die at a higher initiative step.

It's why I like the Burning Blade over a PF, even though you pay so much more for it. You're getting your shredding in at I5, versus I1. It's also why I like THs, and like it more than Burning Blade when it comes to challenges. TH not only gets the bonus of being S8 AP2, but also, with concussive, means that anything, from I2 to I10, is striking with you that next turn, provided one of those wounds hits home.

This is one of the big things I'm getting used to, since I've basically "skipped over" 5th edition completely. It almost seems like power fists, thunder hammers, and even power axes aren't really worth it on Veteran Sergeants and the squad-upgrade, single-wound characters. I wonder though if the things that would be easily shredding through those Veteran Sergeants in a challenge would be typically striking before them based on intiative anyway?

The problem is that most of the stuff that shreds single wound characters in challenges is also basically impervious to them. Here is an example versus a "weak" MC. A veteran sergeant with a power maul is fighting a challenge with a tervigon (the tervigon fights at I1 normally). Sarge gets 3 swings, hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s. This averages to just under 1 wound/turn BEFORE the tervigon gets her 3+ (mauls are only AP4). With a power sword, the sarge would average ~0.31 wounds a turn (hitting on 3s, wounding on 6s but denying the 3+ armor save). The tervigon in return gets 3 attacks, hitting on 4s and wounding on 2s which get her ~1.25 wounds/turn. In other words, the tervigon should kill the veteran in first round of combat the majority of the time and this is before accounting for additional buffs like toxin sacs, scything talons, or psychic powers.

The numbers only get worse when you start fighting multi-wound characters who are built for melee. Almost every CCW that is AP2 also fights at I1 and invulnerable saves are either very good (3++/4++) or the opponent has a high toughness or, in case of some demons, both. The only place I still like close combat upgrades on sergeants is in squads that I place my melee IC in to. That allows the IC to take on the challenge and sarge to help swing the combat as a "hidden" weapon.

you can get the extra attack with the power fist, provided you have another specialist weapon,

where as the hammer is 2 handed,

that being said, I generally find concussive to be quite nice, and prefer hammers genrally.

 easysauce wrote:
where as the hammer is 2 handed,

No, it's not.

I didn't know that the thunder hammer was a two-handed weapon. (que flashbacks to 3rd edition) It make even more sense to be pairing it with the storm shield, which seems to be the default for it anyway.

PanzerLeader wrote:
The problem is that most of the stuff that shreds single wound characters in challenges is also basically impervious to them. Here is an example versus a "weak" MC. A veteran sergeant with a power maul is fighting a challenge with a tervigon (the tervigon fights at I1 normally). Sarge gets 3 swings, hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s. This averages to just under 1 wound/turn BEFORE the tervigon gets her 3+ (mauls are only AP4). With a power sword, the sarge would average ~0.31 wounds a turn (hitting on 3s, wounding on 6s but denying the 3+ armor save). The tervigon in return gets 3 attacks, hitting on 4s and wounding on 2s which get her ~1.25 wounds/turn. In other words, the tervigon should kill the veteran in first round of combat the majority of the time and this is before accounting for additional buffs like toxin sacs, scything talons, or psychic powers.

3 attacks hitting on 3s (66% hits) is 2 hits, wounding on 4s (50% wound) 1 wound (not under) == 33% chance to wound.
3 attacks hitting on 3s (66% hits) is 2 hits, wounding on 6s (16% wound) .32 wounds == 33% chance to wound. It's like they're equal or something.

I agree that CC upgrades are rarely useful on a sarge, but wanted to point out that your math is incorrect.

OK, so the Thunder Hammer is NOT two-handed.

Let's say, for sake of arguement, I've got a Space Marine captain with a Thunder Hammer. Which of the following additional load-outs would you think more competitive?

1 - Artificer Armor & Plasma Pistol (for the additional attack)
2 - Artificer Armor & Storm Shield
3 - only the Storm Shield

Seeing as the Space Marine Captains come with a 4++ already, is it really worthwhile to upgrade that to 3++ with the Storm Shield if you have a standard 2+ already? How much AP2 is really out there that the 3++ would come into play?

Since your taking a hammer probably number 2 as he wouldn't benefit from the pistol (specialist (no?))

rigeld2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
The problem is that most of the stuff that shreds single wound characters in challenges is also basically impervious to them. Here is an example versus a "weak" MC. A veteran sergeant with a power maul is fighting a challenge with a tervigon (the tervigon fights at I1 normally). Sarge gets 3 swings, hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s. This averages to just under 1 wound/turn BEFORE the tervigon gets her 3+ (mauls are only AP4). With a power sword, the sarge would average ~0.31 wounds a turn (hitting on 3s, wounding on 6s but denying the 3+ armor save). The tervigon in return gets 3 attacks, hitting on 4s and wounding on 2s which get her ~1.25 wounds/turn. In other words, the tervigon should kill the veteran in first round of combat the majority of the time and this is before accounting for additional buffs like toxin sacs, scything talons, or psychic powers.

3 attacks hitting on 3s (66% hits) is 2 hits, wounding on 4s (50% wound) 1 wound (not under) == 33% chance to wound.
3 attacks hitting on 3s (66% hits) is 2 hits, wounding on 6s (16% wound) .32 wounds == 33% chance to wound. It's like they're equal or something.

I agree that CC upgrades are rarely useful on a sarge, but wanted to point out that your math is incorrect.

My math was correct. Please reread my post.

For the power maul, I said just under 1 wound/turn before saves. So the math is 3*0.66*0.5 which equals 0.99 (hence, just under 1 wound/turn) BEFORE saves.

For the power sword, the math is 3*0.66*0.16 which equals 0.3168 (you rounded up to 0.32, I cut it off at two decimals instead of rounding).

The 3*0.66 actually equals 1.98 and not an even 2.

 mazzHammer wrote:
OK, so the Thunder Hammer is NOT two-handed.

Let's say, for sake of arguement, I've got a Space Marine captain with a Thunder Hammer. Which of the following additional load-outs would you think more competitive?

1 - Artificer Armor & Plasma Pistol (for the additional attack)
2 - Artificer Armor & Storm Shield
3 - only the Storm Shield

Seeing as the Space Marine Captains come with a 4++ already, is it really worthwhile to upgrade that to 3++ with the Storm Shield if you have a standard 2+ already? How much AP2 is really out there that the 3++ would come into play?

While the TH is not two handed, it is still a specialist weapon. So the plasma pistol won't give you the extra attack. You could pick up a lightning claw (or the Teeth of Terra if you are a big spender) for the extra attack and the best of both worlds. Against soft targets you use the claw/teeth, and hard targets get the hammer. No SS in this setup, so you would be relying on your armor and iron halo.

I don't think the SS is worth it personally. But I will admit to being very stingy with wargear. The artificer armor is a must buy though.

Actually PanzerLeader your math is wrong.
you round up as well when you say a 2/3 chance is 0.66.

For the power maul, you have 3* 2/3 * 1/2 *1/3 = 1/3 (exactly 1 as 2/3 = 0.666666666 with as many 6 as you can and not only 0.66 as you rounded up)

For the power sword you have 3 * 2/3 * 1/6 = 1/3

To make it clearer if you want, you have exactly as many hits, but while you have half a chance of wounding then a third of passing save for the maul, you have a sixth of a chance of wounding and passing directly the save for the sword.
In both case it is 6 hits to an unsaved wound.

 mazzHammer wrote:


Let's say, for sake of arguement, I've got a Space Marine captain with a Thunder Hammer. Which of the following additional load-outs would you think more competitive?

1 - Artificer Armor & Plasma Pistol (for the additional attack)
2 - Artificer Armor & Storm Shield
3 - only the Storm Shield

My vote is just Storm Shield, keep it cheap and provides a high chance of surviving until you can smack them at I1.

 minigun762 wrote:

 mazzHammer wrote:


Let's say, for sake of arguement, I've got a Space Marine captain with a Thunder Hammer. Which of the following additional load-outs would you think more competitive?

1 - Artificer Armor & Plasma Pistol (for the additional attack)
2 - Artificer Armor & Storm Shield
3 - only the Storm Shield

My vote is just Storm Shield, keep it cheap and provides a high chance of surviving until you can smack them at I1.

You really want the 2+ armour though. It makes quite a difference against basic mooks and small-arms fire.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

 mazzHammer wrote:


Let's say, for sake of arguement, I've got a Space Marine captain with a Thunder Hammer. Which of the following additional load-outs would you think more competitive?

1 - Artificer Armor & Plasma Pistol (for the additional attack)
2 - Artificer Armor & Storm Shield
3 - only the Storm Shield

My vote is just Storm Shield, keep it cheap and provides a high chance of surviving until you can smack them at I1.

You really want the 2+ armour though. It makes quite a difference against basic mooks and small-arms fire.

I'd never say no to the 2+, but if I'm already investing in a 2+/3++, I'd be more tempted to just through the points together for a CM instead of a Captain, to get that extra wound and attack.

 minigun762 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

 mazzHammer wrote:


Let's say, for sake of arguement, I've got a Space Marine captain with a Thunder Hammer. Which of the following additional load-outs would you think more competitive?

1 - Artificer Armor & Plasma Pistol (for the additional attack)
2 - Artificer Armor & Storm Shield
3 - only the Storm Shield

My vote is just Storm Shield, keep it cheap and provides a high chance of surviving until you can smack them at I1.

You really want the 2+ armour though. It makes quite a difference against basic mooks and small-arms fire.

I'd never say no to the 2+, but if I'm already investing in a 2+/3++, I'd be more tempted to just through the points together for a CM instead of a Captain, to get that extra wound and attack.

And the Orbital Bombardment. I guess it matters if you want the Captain to unlock a Command Squad or the Chapter Master to get Honour Guard though.