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A few months ago I had my first really negative experience at a 40k event. It was an RTT at the local store. In game 2 I noticed my opponent hadn’t payed full price for wargear and was actually 10 points over. I pointed it out to the opponent and the TO, and the player agreed to drop wargear/alter points to correct it. I lost that game, and this gentleman went on to play a good friend of mine for game 3. He won this as well which gave him the tourney.

After the prizes were announced, I spoke with my friend about his game and discovered that the player had not informed him of the changes in his army. He had intentionally played his 3rd game with a list over by 10 points. He also had misrepresented his codex to both of us when asked directly about rules.

I regret, now, that I had not made a bigger deal about this at the time. I should have been more diligent about making him show rules in the codex. The player had won game 1 with an illegal list, and probably should have been disqualified from prizes. I know now that this was not the first time this gentleman had issues like this. After a detailed discussion with the TO about specifics, the player was banned from the regular event.

This gentleman is not a bad player by any means, just a bit of a cur. He has won several small tournaments and a GT. He was running a cut-throat list and had a very shrewd grasp of the game. This made his indiscretions all the more advantageous.

I would love to hear from 40k tournament veterans and organizers about their experiences with this. The point of any 40k event is for everyone to enjoy themselves. Only a few will walk away with prizes. If the majority of players are having negative experiences, the event won’t be able to keep on going.

-What do you do when you’re paired with a player like this or if this sort of thing is brought to your attention as a TO?
-Does the community as a whole do anything to prevent this from happening at the larger events? (Tar and feathering comes to mind)
-Is this just kinda common and I should expect people like this from time to time?
-Should I stop whining and just WAAC because this is the real game that is being played at top levels?

Please don’t degrade the thread by calling people out or slinging mud. That is not the intention of this post. I would like to hear honest opinions and suggestions on how we can keep the game cut-throat without crossing the line into outright cheating. Thanks.

I saw a similar thing with a player purposely playing vertical fire arcs wrong. He got into a huge fight and the Judge ruled against him and enforced the 45 degree arc which basically is 22degree down and leaves a 'blind spot'. It lost him the game.

Next game he was back to playing it as basically a 180 Degree arc which he used to win further games.

He wasn't top tables but was basically knowingly playing the rule wrong for an advantage and even after corrected, he reverted immediately.

Illegal list should be immediatly reported to a judge regardless if he 'oh, i will remove an item' because that allows someone to overcost his list, claim an honest mistake and drop 10 points of wargear which will have minimal impact this game if actually caught.

Illegal list = DQ.

If you reported it to a judge, a Judge should have come to the table next match and said 'you still have those 10 points removed right?'

Same thing happened to me. A guy brought in a custom bastion for his SoB(Which admittedly was JAW-DROPPINGLY GOOD looking, complete with stain glass and everything). it was taller by a few inches and he used this to focus fire over my ADL with a Vindicare manning a quad gun. Killed my Rune Priest, then Commisar, and broke the back of my blob. He also fired with 8 models out of 2 firing points that the bastion is listed as having.

I didn't realize I had been cheated until after the game when I saw his bastion next to a normal bastion and reread the rules for firing points. I mentioned it to another player but never to the TO.

I would say that in this case he should've had the game counted as a loss(he went on to win the tourney as well). In general knowingly cheating should result in a loss at least, but depending on the degree(such as using loaded dice) he should be DQ'd

I dont fault the TO, he did the right thing ultimately in my situation. I do agree the onus is on the TO to keep these events clean and enjoyable. Im particularly interested in hearing from them.

Acrimonious, getting the facts right and the other side of the story helps a lot before acusing anyone of cheating.

In your example, (about me) it was the first time I played that list/codex in that way (demons as primary). consequently, I was rusty on rules/army mechanics in general-eldar are my main army.

Facts:
-When writing the list that morning really fast I mistakenly listed a spell familiar as 10 points rather than 15 and was 5 points over. In the list writing process I was initially 10 points under because of this mistake and so I added a minor gift to fill the gap between 1490 and 1500.

-The list was written in Microsoft text with no wargear points cost check so this was simply a math error, not an attempt to cheat.

The games:
-My first opponent I played had no problems with me or my list and the wargear in question never came into play. Furthermore, he later became a friend if mine and we have since had a good time chatting about our games and warhammer in general.

-My second game was with you and you pointed out the error in my math. To resolve the matter, I agreed to drop a minor gift, bringing me 5 points under and you were OK with this and we continued our game. If you really were not ok with this, you should have brought a judge over to get his input.

Over the course of our game you had some bad dice and I had some good dice-I also let you do things you forgot to do and you said "thanks man, I can't say I would have done the same for you," which makes me think that you acknowledged I was being a good sport and giving you every chance to win.

In the end, neither the spell familiar nor the minor gift made a difference in my winning and you lost because you kept rolling poorly on your ld and saves from my shooting. I thought it was a good game between us and bystanders would have agreed that we were nothing but amicable throughout the game.

-My third round opponent, your friend, WAS informed that my list was over points and that I dropped the minor gift to rectify the situation. I have witnesses that heard me say this and heard my opponent acknowledge this.

This game was close but ultimately I won because the screamer star just did so much damage-nothing else really played a factor in the game.


-later on that evening, you and your friend were heard taking about me and my list behind my back by various people...if you had an issue you should have talked to me directly about it-I would have been fine not getting prize support if it meant that much to you guys that my math was slightly off...

Generally, directly confronting list/gameplay issues with the player in question and judge as issues arise is the proper way to handle things. Being passive-aggressive about things is never the answer and if you really are NOT ok with something but say you are, who's fault is that?

To conclude, this was a matter of mistake/bad math-not cheating. I was in the store for a long time after the event and this could have easily been cleared up then an there. Regardless, no hard feelings.

in 3rd ed. I had a list 1 point over at a ukgt heat. it was caught during second game. I recieved a loss for game 1 that i completed and the list was adjusted.
it was enough of a hit that i failed to make the cut to the finals. if I would have kept the win in game 1, I would have made it to the finals. I didn't lose game 2 automaticly since the frag grenade was not used when they came to the table and the opponent was ok with just its removal. they gave the player in the second game the option to take the win.

 skkipper wrote:
in 3rd ed. I had a list 1 point over at a ukgt heat. it was caught during second game. I recieved a loss for game 1 that i completed and the list was adjusted.
it was enough of a hit that i failed to make the cut to the finals. if I would have kept the win in game 1, I would have made it to the finals. I didn't lose game 2 automaticly since the frag grenade was not used when they came to the table and the opponent was ok with just its removal. they gave the player in the second game the option to take the win.

This is pretty close to the correct way to handle this. I'm glad to read that.

Yeah, let's not confuse math errors with cheating. Everyone makes math errors, and to be honest, these things aren't always caught by Army Builder either. In fact, Army Builder has a lot of flaws that are being continually corrected in the programming, so it's always a good rule of thumb to re-evaluate your list.

For instance, at Adepticon this year, my friend and I were playing in a game against opponents who had Ogres with Daemons. Each teammate was allowed 1200 pts, we noticed (As both of us also play ogres) that he was running 2 Ironblasters, which was illegal at only 300 pts for Rare. We simply let him know and allowed him to change the list (And had to go to the TO table to sign off on the changes), simple math mistake, and he had only typed the list, so really didn't check it. They went on to crush us of course... man, rolling 6's like a boss.

In another instance, I played a guy who was running 3 HQ units.. (Sisters with Grey Knight allies... all from the old books by the way). He had 2 canonesses and had a Grand Master in the army as well. It was pointed out to him that he could not have 3 HQ units... (Something that may seem fairly obvious to most people... and something that had been told to him BEFORE). Simply lost that Grand Master and played that many points down the rest of the tournament.

I took these situations all very lightly, most people do not however. Remember that while some people do cheat, bad math isn't (ALWAYS) cheating. In my opinion, the second ruling was probably more just, making the player drop the over points and not get anything back for it. You're at a tournament, and you should make sure your lists are iron clad, people are always going to ask questions, especially if they lose.

Isnt it obvious? Stocks with rotten food thrown at cheaters

The bad math wasn't my fault. "Sparky" wrote my list as we bombed down a roads in a Punto. Him and Mike thought I should change my list. Never trust people from Ohio.


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Real cheaters, people who blatantly cheat should receive a loss that round and the guy cheated should get 75% of the max points for the round. Say Max is 20 points the cheated party should get 15.
Anybody with more than one issue should be DQ'd

Whoa, a guy with a Screamer Council cheated?

I am shocked.

@mortetvie:
First of all, there is nothing in this post that would betray you as the person I'm talking about. My stated goal with this thread was to get feedback from players and TO's on how to handle situations like the one I encountered. Accusing me of being passive-aggressive is unnecessary, and obviously aimed and provoking a response. In my original post I list several things that I wished I had done at the time, including being more assertive about the points issue. I informed a judge, he made a decision for you to change your list, and I went along with his ruling. You can't fault me for that.

I stand by my stated purpose and questions at the bottom of my original post. I want to know how TO's handle this sort of thing in general and what strategies players use when they encounter problem players. If you don't think you fall into this category, fine. If you hadn't outed yourself no one would have known I'm talking about you, other than the locals that know my screen name. They already know you've been banned from the local event, so its not news to any of them.

As far as your "witnesses": Yes, I absolutely talked over your list with my friend and calculated it and made sure you were over before pressing the issue with the TO. Why you would bother mentioning this, I'm not sure.

As far as our game together, it was amicable. I recall pointing out to you several times when I noticed you were doing something I didn't think was right, and you responded and corrected. Does this mean absolutely everything was played by the book? I admit to losing handily, partly due to bad dice, and largely due to my unfamiliarity with your codex and list build at the time. The fact that you reminded me to do something when you already had the game in the bag, and I responded with a thank you, doesn't say much more than whats on the surface.

I've obviously hit a nerve here and you felt the need to defend yourself, but I stand by my post as being non threatening and not offensive. I gave it a lot of effort to not be abusive or betray your identity and to stay within the forum guide lines. I absolutely am NOT here to throw "he said/They did" accusations around on the internet, or try to call in "witnesses" to things that can't be verified. If you don't think you fall into the category of player I'm talking about here then maybe you don't have anything to contribute to this thread.

I have a crowbar in my truck called 'Turn 7'. I'll be waiting for the cheaters in the parking lot.... Always waiting.

But yeah let the TO know and let it ride. Normally there is a few warnings thrown around and then banning from events and eventually the store. Though Im always a proponent of Turn 7 knee capping.

As people have pointed out, there is a difference between intentionally deceiving and trying to get away with things and an honest mistake.

Case in point for me-at Feast of Blades this year I played a tau guy who infiltrated his sniper drones and had table wide ethereal ld bubble going...looking at the totality of the circumstances, it was clear he was just confused between the old and new tau codex and was just rusty on his rules. This is not cheating but something easily resolved by going over the rule book/codex.

People make mistakes and generally want to work with you to fix things. Holding it in during an event and then complaining later and even going as far as trying to get a player banned for an honest mistake is childish and sad.

As far as our circumstances go, weather or not I am banned remains to be established on my end as the TO has been leading me to believe otherwise. Regardless, I think several things that happened that day could have been handle better.

Like I said earlier, no hard feelings, though since you made it a point to discuss a specific instance that involved me, I thought it only fair to give the other side of the story .

True. You should come to the next GE tournament and we'll all play it out with dice and laughs. I havnt seen you there in a while.

Though I wouldn't consider the original post complaining; it was posing a question to TO's with no specifics.

Once again, youre throwing insults at the same time you say No Hard Feelings. I didnt hold anything in, it all developed that day as described in my post. My complaints that day were not the first against you, and thus the event organizer made a decision. The right decision, in my opinion, but you obviously disagree.
I Math mistakes are somewhat understandable, and if that had been all it would have ended there. I left tons of details out on purpose, as I'm trying to get feedback on this issue in general not cry sour grapes MONTHS later.
@Mortetvie: you seem to be intent on making this a he said/i said despite my repeated stated purpose of this thread.


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As to whether or not you're allowed back, it's not my event or my decision.

Don't make me roll to see if we go on to 'Turn 7'



Both of you calm down, put on your big boy pants, and let normal constructive arguing take place over what should be done WHEN and IF someone cheats. No one has cheated yet; as the OP only said it might have happened as no details where left. For all we know that cheating event may have never taken place as 40k is a gentleman's sport and it is quite impossible to ever think someone would cheat at it. This is under the assumption the cheating might never take place and only in the future if ever. So pour some brandy, dawn your monocle, rolls some dice, and get on with the nerd life.

Now shall we...

99% of what people think is cheating are just mistakes.

10 points one way or another would not be that big of a deal to me because I should be able to win even with it since it has such a small impact on the game.

Ironically as a side note, I have been accused of cheating against Mortetvie.

 Blackmoor wrote:
99% of what people think is cheating are just mistakes.

10 points one way or another would not be that big of a deal to me because I should be able to win even with it since it has such a small impact on the game.

Ironically as a side note, I have been accused of cheating against Mortetvie.

I agree that to a large extent (90%+) of accusations of cheating are misunderstandings. Calling a ref over and getting a determination right then as there is the way to go IMO.

Also, to clarify your reference to me, I don't recall ever accusing you of cheating-just to clear things up .

I agree that most accusations of cheating could be called misunderstandings of the rules.

@Blackmoor: i know youre a seasoned tournament vet. Is this something you have to deal with regularly at larger events? Its harder to cheat against someone that's confident with the rules, but its also a massive pain to police peoples every move and the facing of their flyers etc. I would appreciate more of your input on the topics of the post if you could.

Someone who plays a rule wrong is a mistake.

Someone who has a judge clarify a rule and teaches them how to play the rule correctly or by the rules of the event then purposely tries to play the rule wrong again when the judge isn't watching is a cheater.

And then there is the dice cheaters and the measurement cheaters.

Note to self bring out loaded dice when playing Alan. We can have a misunderstanding !!!

Plenty of people make mistakes. I've made plenty of mistakes. Cheating, is rare but happens. At a GT last October, (2012) we had a few cases. One was a case of a single large loaded dice, being used for initiative rolls and such... No question the dice was loaded. He denied that he knew, but it was a single dice used only for beginning of game rolls, through a GT and was proven to be loaded.

We had another player caught cheating with rules issues and movement. He had a bad reputation, and had made very important rules mistakes that could have changed the first two games I had played against him, so I was on the lookout when we played at the top table of that same GT. I ended up catching him cheating, after asking a TO to watch him play from behind. Again, this was repeated mis-rules that I frequently called him on. (Lasguns ap 6 when shooting at gants. There is really no excuse there.) I won that game fortunately, and the player was not invited back, plus local stores were notified.

At the latest version of the GT in question, the TO provided a dice brick for every player, at no additional cost. Obviously some people didn't like this, but given the previous problems it felt like an unfortunate necessity and the right call overall.

Basically, when thinking cheating: Be sure. One rules mistake (especially changes in editions) doesn't warrant it. It needs to be clearly intentional, insistent, and repeated, preferrably witnessed by another. I asked the TO judge to take a few minutes to watch while I was on a "bathroom break" and he saw many of the things I did, which justified accusing him of cheating in my mind.

Thanks for sharing Jifel. I have regular opponents at local events that I always breathe a sigh of relief when i see im matched with, just because I know I dont have to police every move or question every rule. Doing this just sucks the fun out of the whole event, thats a large reason I want to hear what people have to say on it and how TO's deal with it.

jathomas2013 wrote:
Same thing happened to me. A guy brought in a custom bastion for his SoB(Which admittedly was JAW-DROPPINGLY GOOD looking, complete with stain glass and everything). it was taller by a few inches and he used this to focus fire over my ADL with a Vindicare manning a quad gun. Killed my Rune Priest, then Commisar, and broke the back of my blob. He also fired with 8 models out of 2 firing points that the bastion is listed as having.

I didn't realize I had been cheated until after the game when I saw his bastion next to a normal bastion and reread the rules for firing points. I mentioned it to another player but never to the TO.

I would say that in this case he should've had the game counted as a loss(he went on to win the tourney as well). In general knowingly cheating should result in a loss at least, but depending on the degree(such as using loaded dice) he should be DQ'd

I believe this particular example is referring to me. I do remember playing against you in a tournament in California I believe. It was shortly after I had created the bastion and sisters army to go with it. I do remember clearing the bastion with every TO prior to competing in any tournament. I believe in the rule book that the bastion's firepoints are listed "as per model". There is a reason why I cleared the model through the TO's prior to the tournament.

The primary reason I felt a need to reply to this thread is I saw that you mentioned it to another tournament goer but not a TO, and not to me. I have been in tournaments before and had mistakes brought to my attention during the tournament. One in particular was a GT in LA, I made a mistake in the first day of the tournament with my opponent and my opponent brought it to my attention the second day before the 4th round started. We checked the rules and I realized that I was wrong and had definitely made a mistake the day prior. I asked to go to the judge and have them correct the mistake by overturning my win from the prior day and making it a loss, my opponent interjected and asked it be made a draw instead. If I do remember correctly Alan Blackmoor was at that tournament.

I had no idea that the bastion had upset you so much, had I known I would much rather you brought it to my attention so that we could have found an amicable solution.

I personally feel this should be the most ideal solution in a tournament scene for when someone thinks another is "cheating". Bring it to their attention. If someone is actually cheating, then they will be far less likely to want to correct the mistake. I am dearly sorry if you feel you were cheated in our game. I hope that one day we may be able to face eachother again on the tabletop, a chance to have a great game where no one feels wronged.

Acrimonious wrote:
the player was banned from the regular event.

This gentleman is not a bad player by any means, just a bit of a cur. He has won several small tournaments and a GT. He was running a cut-throat list and had a very shrewd grasp of the game. This made his indiscretions all the more advantageous.

So was he banned? As a result of a mis-calculation of points as it turns out? and is he definitely a cur, a cad, and plague to gaming tables all over the USA?

Colour me intrigued.

To be clear, the points were one issue of many that this player had that day. I didn't expand on the other indiscretions because the details really don't matter, and that's not the point of the thread. As I said, this was not the first round of complaints against the player.

I almost got into a fist fight with a TFG during a 5th edition tournament. He was running a list with 9 Rhinos, and was moving a couple of them twice in the same turn. It was hard to keep track of with so many rhinos on the board, but I watched him do it.

I called him on it, and he started to get nasty. I told him lets roll it off like gentleman, and he continued to be a betch. I snapped and told him to shut his fackin mouth, and if it continues we can step outside and settle it.

So much manliness in one thread. I might swoon!

But seriously. First talk to your opponent. If that doesn't work talk to the TO. If it's not resolved to your satisfaction don't attend again.

Lastly, remember it's a day to play with little toy soldiers. Prize support/winning shouldn't be the key motivator for going to events of any type for 40k or Fantasy.

On the subject of math errors, I regularly play friendly games of 40k against Mrs. Bull0's Ulthwé Eldar, and a few weeks ago she overcosted her army list by around 300 points. We tend to rush with the lists as we have a kid, so barely have time to play as it is. Naturally she kicked my ass. We had a real laugh about it afterwards when we realised the mistake I can't say if I noticed the other guy was 10pts over I'd give a monkey's, but like I said, I mostly play friendly games.