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Just wanted to put this here even though it's not really BWG related... So, while I wait for Game Salute to get their schedule in order to start on all the weird west stuff for BWG, I've been working on my next game. Everything on my end is done, I'm just waiting in line so to speak. I'm hoping they'll get moving in the next month or so.

Anyway, my next game is a sci-fi Mech gladiator arena game called Mechadrome. Some of you have read the preliminary rules several months back, I'll have an updated public version done very soon. It's got a professional sports kind of vibe, where it's the most popular sport 1000 years from now and different armies and races and corporations sponsor teams to show off their latest hardware. Mech pilots are zillionare celebrities and everyone in the galaxy tunes in for Monday Night Mecha, wearing their favorite team colors and starting drunken barroom brawls when they lose.

The initial concept art for the mechs is being worked on right now and I should have something to show in a week or so I think. I'm at the point now where I need to nail down a format, so I'm wondering what you guys would rather see?

The game uses the same rules for BWG, right down to most of the weapon stats and all. Instead of heroes, professionals and henchmen we have Heavy, Medium and Light mechs. It will be a 15mm scale game, but the smallest mechs will be the same size as your average 28-30mm figure. Starting teams will have 7 models, and that will be 4 light mechs, 2 medium mechs and 1 heavy mech. I'll be starting with 2 teams .. the Terran Titans sponsored by Earth's military and the Team Bushido sponsored by the Mitsufugi Corporation that will have a kind of anime look. There will be others too, like martian tripod mechs, cybrogs & andriods, alien biomechs, space pirates with hacked together mechs and more. You can use the mechs right out of the box, or design your own team and easily swap around the weapons and other parts since everything will be designed to snap together real easy.

Anyway what I'm trying to decide on is if I should go the all plastic boxed game route, and do something similar to the new starter set from Dropzone Commander. Or, metal figures (with maybe the heavies in resin?) sold separate and just a rulebook. The latter is the cheapest method and because it's cheaper I could get more models done for the same amount of starting cash. However the whole idea of building your mechs from scratch with weapons you can swap around easily makes me feel like plastic is the way to go. With metal figures, you could customize everything, but you would probably have to glue your weapons on for them to stay properly unless you get creative with magnets.

The 3D sculpting for plastic models will cost about 3x as much as the 3D sculpting for metals, and the 2 technologies aren't really compatible. Plastics need CAD software, but most 3D sculptors who do metal or resin figures use programs like Zbrush, and I've been told by the manufacturer that the files just don't mix well. I don't want to have to pay to sculpt things twice. When it comes to the Kickstarter campaign, I would likely need something like $70,000 to fund the plastics, and we'd need like $40k to unlock each new team. With metal figures the funding level would be more like $10-20k, and maybe $10k for each new team.

So I'm leaning more toward metal to be honest, because I'll be able to get more done. But I would much rather have plastic models, so they will be easy to build and play with. What would you rather see?


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also .. here are the first rough sketches for the Terran mechs. Light, Medium and Heavy. Light mechs are more like an oversized battlesuit, so the guy moving around inside will control the arms and legs.

These are really rough, just meant to show the basic shapes. The final detailed pics will be done soon.

Sounds alot like Heavy Gear Arena by DP9. Best of luck to you as the mecha genre is definitely one of my favorites. I'd probably suggest starting out the initial KS with metals/resin and then putting in a higher stretch goal(s) of switching factions/units to plastic. Just make it clear from the beginning that it is your goal (if you decide to go that route) so no one can legitimately complain that they only pledged for metals.

yeah, I never played Heavy Gear and I'm only a little familiar with it. The models look cool though. I hope it won't be too much like it in the end. I was thinking of it more like Battletech, only you measure stuff instead of having hex spaces and you can build your own mechs. And more simplified rules, just basically making it BWG with robots. I've been thinking about adding a hit location kind of thing though, so weapons can get blown off.

Also the idea is you can play the arena game with teams of 7 or so models per side, or you can expand using the same rules but having bigger battles that are all out wars the different armies are fighting, not a team sport. And those bigger games could include tanks and other vehicles, bases with a few troops on them, flying things, maybe even super heavies. But that would all come much much later.

One idea I had was to start as metal and switch to plastic like you suggest, but I wanted to get away from having to sculpt things twice. I was thinking in the KS there would be a sweet spot pledge for like 2 teams + the rules and other goodies. At a certain level we can unlock the full boxed game and then everyone who pledged that level will automagically get the full boxed game instead. Though maybe we can do something like having the heavies done in plastic first, since they're bigger and the smaller mechs could still be metal at first. The molds alone will cost something like $12,000 per sprue. I'm guessing we'd need something like 3-4 sprues for a full team. so I'm just scared we won't be able to afford plastics unless the campaign really took off.

Metal is fine by me...but shipping cost will increase as well.
Resin or PVC would be the logical bridge. Great detail and low weight.
Good Luck!!

I don't mind metal for regular sized figures, but once they start getting into the multi-part range I don't like metal as much since you have to pin everything, and then there's the big pieces that can warp just enough to not fit together snugly as the metal cools. I think the heavy mechs are going to end up around the size of an average warmachine jack or space marine dreadnought.

PCV could work, but I'm hesitant because I wasn't too impressed with the quality of my Sedition Wars figures, lots of warpage and crazy mold lines for some of them. PVC also still has high priced molds too, so I'd rather just do a traditional injection molded kind of model kit if I were to go with plastics. Been chatting here and there with Wargames Factory, so if I do plastics I'd want it to be with them for sure. I just have to get the final concept art all done first before we can move forward at all. Just worried the higher sculpting price will also be out of my startup price range, but I don't want to do a KS campaign without at least showing some model prototypes or 3D prints. I don't think the campaign will do too well if all I have is some concept art.

So.. waiting to get the final art done for the fist 2 teams and then I'll take it from there I guess

Here's a really really rough sketch of the Team Bushido light mech.



I should have detailed more final pics of the Terran Titans next week some time

If you go the kickstarter route could do plastic as a stretch goal?

Yeah I may try something like that. The issue was that if I have them sculpted for metal, I'd have to have them re-sculpted for plastic since the 2 kinds of software aren't compatible. But we'll see once I get the art done for the 2 teams I'll be able to get a good idea of what it will all cost and I can take it from there.

I'd also like to do some ruined building terrain too if I can, but those would probably just be resin. Been having a hard time finding good cityfight style buildings in 15mm, so I may as well just make my own

 Necros wrote:
Yeah I may try something like that. The issue was that if I have them sculpted for metal, I'd have to have them re-sculpted for plastic since the 2 kinds of software aren't compatible. But we'll see once I get the art done for the 2 teams I'll be able to get a good idea of what it will all cost and I can take it from there.

I'd also like to do some ruined building terrain too if I can, but those would probably just be resin. Been having a hard time finding good cityfight style buildings in 15mm, so I may as well just make my own

You'd likely find it'd sell for the terrain alone within reason. Look at the success of the DZC starter, it does well but including terrain (not something always greatly available to new players) is something that doesn't seem to occur to many games producers.

I would try for plastic from the get go, hopefully with some scenery as a separate pledge level to get those buyers in, that will help offset the price for plastic tooling.

Even better with plastic if there was something that would fit well for not terminators or the new bigger ones, as that could help sales.

Yeah terrain is something I'd really like to do. I was thinking of going the boxed game route and having cardstock buildings like Dropzone Commander and some board tiles.. and then do resin or plastic buildings as a stretch goal later on.

I just worry about needing a funding goal of like $75k if it's all plastic, and then not making it

 Necros wrote:
Yeah terrain is something I'd really like to do. I was thinking of going the boxed game route and having cardstock buildings like Dropzone Commander and some board tiles.. and then do resin or plastic buildings as a stretch goal later on.

I just worry about needing a funding goal of like $75k if it's all plastic, and then not making it

I'd be fine with cardstock, like i said the main terrain reason is for new players as it gives something quick and easy to use to block LOS and look pretty so they can focus on the models and gameplay.

If the funding fails at $75k plastic first time round, couldn't you do a relaunch later in metal? It'd give you a good idea of if the game could reasonably make that much to begin with right?

Yeah that's probably what I'd do. Or just break it up and sell everything as separate sets and a rulebook instead of a big boxed game.


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Oh and.. kind of wondering, would it be "bad form" to do a KS campaign for this, and a BWG KS as well, within a few months of each other? BWG will be run and delivered by Game Salute. It's a Game Salute product line, all I really do is write it now. but I'll be doing Mechadrome myself though.

Not really bad form, mantic does it all the time it seems But it boils down to what you have your heart set on, do you want to follow what you did with BWG or do it along a different track?

Well the plan is to have both games going at the same time.. like Mantic has their sci fi and their fantasy games.. same idea here. So hopefully I'll get to the point soon where I have something new coming out every month or so for BWG or Mecharome or the 3rd game I'm planning.. but the 3rd would be a couple years away, want to make sure the first 2 are up and running and able to support themselves.

If Game Salute is running one, and you are doing one more yourself, I can't see there being a problem with there being 2 running close to each other.

I think you should make a goal to do plastic right away, with as much multikit stuff as possible. Some high end plastic kits that can be changed around would sell very well I imagine.

Yeah I'd like to jump right into plastic, it's just scary because it costs so much up front before you even get to the molds. Sculpting for metal is cheaper and safer, but then if I sculpt for metal I have to pay to have everything re-sculpted for plastic. So once I get the art all done I'll get my quotes and see what will work best. I don't think I want to go with PVC or Restic or any of those other things, just because the PVC molds are also pricey so if I'm spending that kinda money, I may as well do real plastic with Wargames Factory. I guess PVC is a good in-between for if I don't want to do metal, but I'd rather go for the high quality if I can afford it.

If I do plastic what I'm hoping to do is have the heavy mechs on 1 frame, and a medium & 2 lights on another.. so they would be packaged as 1 heavy or a squad of 3, or the whole team of 1 heavy and 2 squads. And then if I can do the big boxed game it would be 2 full teams, a board or separate board tiles and some cardstock buildings. Right now I have the rules written for boards with hex spaces, but I think I'm going to drop that and go for good old measuring instead.

But if I ended up going with metal, I think a big boxed game would be too expensive because of the metal figs, so I'd probably sell that as separate box sets and a rulebook. And then maybe still do the board and buildings as a separate thing.

Just gotta wait to get the finished artwork before I can start getting quotes But I definitely want to have both teams sculpted at least in 3D screenshots before I do a KS campaign. I don't think it'll work if it's just based on some artwork. I think that's what kind of hurt the BWG campaigns. If it's models people really need to see what the actual models will look like.

Is it possible to modify models designed for plastic to work in metal? That might be something that is easier to transition for.

I can understand the fears of trying to do it in plastic. That is a huge investment, and you would have to be able to make 2 starter armies up front, and have plenty of fun stretches (I want more dice!) too.

There will be dice Each team will have their own little emblem, so I was going to make special dice for each team with their emblem on #6. So far I have 6 teams planned. We'll start with the Terran Titans vs Team Bushido. Then I have the Redsand Raiders who are martians with tripod mechs. Driodstroyers are cybrogs and andriods with mechs with lots of lenses and tencacle hoses and stuff like that, kind of like the seekers from the Matrix. Buccaneers are space pirates with a road warrior feel with rusty mechs hacked together from other parts and starship hulls and stuff. And the Aphid Swarmers are an alien bug-race that drive not-nid Alieny bio-mechs. There will also be some free agents that you can add to any team, like hired guns in BWG.

So we'll start off with the first 2 teams. Each team will have 1 heavy mech, 2 of the same medium mechs and 4 of the same light mechs (maybe 2 different poses). You add the weapons you want to personalize them, and other equipment like booster jets or shield generators or extra armor. Basically a light mech gets 3 slots for weapons & equipment, mediums get 4 and heavies get 5.

Unlocking a new team will probably be a pretty hefty goal though.. just guessing we would need 3 molds (heavy + med & 2 lights + weapon sprue). Molds alone cost around $12k each. So I'd have to mix in some free agents and other smaller goals inbetween. I was actually thinking about pairing up 2 teams each as their own separate boxed game like for Season 2 or Season 3. Each boxed game would have the full rules and everything you need to play so you can just buy the set with the teams you like best, or buy them all or just buy the minis separately. So, if we don't get high enough, I could do each new season as a whole separate KS campaign, after the first one has been delivered of course.

Got some new art tonight. Here is the updated design for the Terran Titans light mech, and also the Team Bushido light mech

Here's the Team Bushido Medium Mech

And here's the Heavy Terran mech

Ohhh I like the Terran Heavy, not too sure about leaving the soft fleshy part exposed mind

Nothing fleshy on him at all and he's also going to have a shield generator on his back, so he'll have 4 armor (like hp) and 5 shields

Then I shall rephrase to "clear perspex bullseye" still the designs look damn cool, liking the terrans a lot.

Forgot to share this one.. here is the Terran medium mech .. still a WIP, he's not playing a drum with a wrecking ball. Still needs to get some more weapons added

What will the goal of the matches be? Scoring points in some way or just killing the other team?

What type of arenas will matches be played in?

For terrain you should look into working with Proxie Models. Ken is located in York, so you could stop by and check it out yourself if you wanted to do a little roadtrip.

If you go for plastic you'd need a lot more people to sign up for it and if you encounter issues, then you'll have a lot more unhappy people to deal with. With metal you can do it for less and need fewer people to support you.

Maybe you can do your first kickstarter for metal/resin and then in a few years if the game has legs you could do another one for different plastic models. That way everything from the first KS would still be useful for gamers and you could still sell it alongside the plastic stuff.

There will be different missions with different goals. There's the basic set up and kill game, but other things like take & hold objectives, capture the flag, king of the hill and other things like that.

The arenas will be (mostly) abandoned cities, derelict space stations, canyony asteroid bases and more. The boxed game will come with a basic cityfight arena where the board will look like streets and city blocks, and ruined building corner pieces for terrain that you can lay out all over the board for obstacles.

I was actually about to contact Ken about using his bases for the models

I am actually leaning more toward metal and resin. I'm going over the basic costs for the molds and sculpting in my head and it's making my brain hurt. If each frame is gonna cost like $12k and what if I end up needing 3-4 frames between the heavy, medium and light mechs + weapons + bases. And then there's the sculpting charge on top of that too. But, I'm still going to get the concept art finished up and then get the estimates and see if we can make it work. I'd much rather have the full boxed game with plastic minis, but I'll have to see what I can afford. I don't want to rely 100% on kickstarter, because that would be such a high funding goal that people would probably just laugh at me. So I want to see what I can afford to do with my preliminary budget and take it from there.

So I'll see how it goes. If it ends up being too high, I can start with metal and resin and maybe follow Dropzone Commander's lead and do a plastic 2-player starter set later on. Or possibly save that as a really high stretch goal. Maybe if I start with metal and have a sweet spot for 2 teams + a rulebook, if we can do the boxed game as a stretch then people at the sweet spot get an automagical upgrade to the full box.

Got my vote for more off the wall objectives. Cat and mouse games or even a mario kart style race could be interesting too.

And here's the Team Bushido heavy mech