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So i've been running a biker command squad of five guys with grav rifles for a few games, but they never seem to do anything besides die horribly. I don't know if it's my opponents or just me, but they never unleased a salvo at full strength.


Would it be better to just have a biker troop squad with 2 grav guns and 8 marines? it seems that i need a lot of bikes to actually do anything

1. Make 2 units of 5 troop bikes with 2 grav guns each (would probably cost about the same, but more bodies and more targets)

or

2. Go to a command squad with 4 grav bikes plus the apothecary, and add a chapter master on a bike with eternal warrior shield and artificer armor. Put the CM up front to tank wounds for the squad.

In the analysis I've ran, the command squad has roughly the same RPP (resilience per point) compared to bike squads, except when shot by weapons that deny FnP.

Bike Squad
133.3333333 IG lasgun
49.99750012 bolter
13.33320003 PG
19.99980004 autocannon
13.33320003 Orbital Bombardment

Command Squad
128.5714286 IG lasgun
48.21187512 bolter
12.85701431 PG
19.28552147 autocannon
8.571342875 Orbital Bombardment

Damage Per Point
Their DPP (Damage per Point)values are also very similar vs MEQ and TEQ, but fail vs GEQ.
Bike Squad
37.03703704 GEQ
26.9360202 MEQ
20.2020202 TEQ

Command Squad
18.34215168 GEQ
26.80775873 MEQ
21.86948854 TEQ

Summary
Are command squads worth it?
- They are slightly more dangerous in assault
- They are not scoring.
- They have a smaller footprint (per point) than bike squads
- They are only 1 unit instead of 1.5 units (ie, less contesting ability - less overkill can be wasted, etc.)
- Weaker GEQ killing power may be bad if your facing lots of guardians, etc
- They will have better odds vs tanks and MCs
- They have no ablative bodies to lose without impacting firepower capacity. Bike squads can lose 3 models before this happens.
So are they worth it? That really depends on you. Personally I like to bring more bikes squads and spend those extra points on support elements.

Adding the Tank
Adding in a 2+ armor save character make a big difference with a command squad. Remember that a 2+ armor save is twice as durable as a 3+ armor save. However it does add to the point cost of the unit. So, a chapter master on a bike with artificer armor costs 170 points. He has 4 wounds, so that's identical to adding 8 bikes. 8 bikes would cost 168 points. Therefore adding a chapter master like that is nearly identical -- durability wise to adding more bikes. If you stick the CM in a squad with FnP, the CM actually is 33% more effective at tanking wounds.

This means that you can actually get more durability (and some more CC punch) by having a CM just sit in front and take the wounds. You want to use a CM for this as it had one extra wound (1/3 more wounds than a captain) for only 40 more points than a captain. The orbital bombardment is the icing on the cake.

Hmm, that is good points, but i rather not spend a lot on just a tank for the squad. already have a rune priest in there to cast prescience for some TL stuff.

And was the test between a 5 man command squad and a 8 man biker squad? because you said you have three ablative wounds.

i think they are worth it, especially if you put a chapter master/captain in from of the squad with a storm sheild. it would take a str 10 shot to ID him, and you get 4-5 wounds b4 you lose a grav gun.

eh, i dont know. again, it's probably my meta, but they never did anything (except for killing a wraith knight) i'm thinking plasma might be a better buy atm.


Anyways, i dont have a captain with them but i do have a divination rune priest to help them out some.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
And was the test between a 5 man command squad and a 8 man biker squad? because you said you have three ablative wounds.

5 man biker squad and 5 man command squad.

In the 5 man biker squad, you can lose 3 bikes before you start losing grav guns (assuming correct positioning)
Command squads have no ablative wounds. They either lose their FNP or a grav gun with the first causality (assuming you have 4 grav guns)

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
And was the test between a 5 man command squad and a 8 man biker squad? because you said you have three ablative wounds.

5 man biker squad and 5 man command squad.

In the 5 man biker squad, you can lose 3 bikes before you start losing grav guns (assuming correct positioning)
Command squads have no ablative wounds. They either lose their FNP or a grav gun with the first causality (assuming you have 4 grav guns)

ah, okay. I was asking for the 8 v 5 command squad then. Same amount of points give or take. can you run the numbers for these squads?

8 man biker squad ( two grav guns, combi-grav)
5 man command squad (bikes, four grav guns, Apothicary)

That was more towards my original question i made the topic for

Also remember with a cmd squad I believe you have to get a captain, whereas with troops you can get the Chapter master tank.

The issue i have with biker command is are they CC or snooty? You are paying for the Grav Guns so i want to use them every turn not just 1 or 2. I would put the points in Thunderfire Cannon and Assault Terms instead.

The chapter master can be excellent if you play the unit right. The thing about this unit is that it is shooty that is a CC bully. The unit is already getting nearly into charge range and so you can run up to an enemy shoot them up with grav and if something survives and won't murderize you you charge them and let the chapter master go to work. If you play white scars then you can bounce back out with hit and run. This is very useful as even thunder hammer termies have difficulty putting the chapter master down. You need to be careful about challenge shenanigans though.

BTW you might want to think about running the chapter master as an allied iron hands. He gets IWND and a 6+ FnP (in case the apoth dies). You can then take an IWND stormraven and a 5 man TAC squad with +6 FnP to drop out of the hellturkey killer.

Hmmm, I think I may need to switch my weapons up and try plasma guns on them. Maybe try something that can hurt more than things with a 3+ save. I would still have a grav gun biker squad to take down MC's

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
And was the test between a 5 man command squad and a 8 man biker squad? because you said you have three ablative wounds.

5 man biker squad and 5 man command squad.

In the 5 man biker squad, you can lose 3 bikes before you start losing grav guns (assuming correct positioning)
Command squads have no ablative wounds. They either lose their FNP or a grav gun with the first causality (assuming you have 4 grav guns)

ah, okay. I was asking for the 8 v 5 command squad then. Same amount of points give or take. can you run the numbers for these squads?

8 man biker squad ( two grav guns, combi-grav)
5 man command squad (bikes, four grav guns, Apothicary)

That was more towards my original question i made the topic for

What your going to see is a higher damage output (per point) for the command squad, and more durability (per point) for the 8 man biker squad.
Check out the 11th company podcast. The next simhammer segment (which should be in the next show) will cover just this very topic

The super abridged version : About 10%-20%. Less than might initially think, yet more than one might expect from hearing 10%-20%
How much is 20%? Well, if you have an army with 20% more firepower than before that's actually quite a bit!

Awesome, thanks! I'm going to switch up the load outs in my next game though (especially if I play against orcs again @-@ )

I guess the thing to talk about now is either a tank for the squad, or for the weapon choice. Since i could always look up plasma vs grav guns, let's talk about character support!

Now, I talked about adding a prescience rune priest before, so what are your thoughts on that?

Prescience is better used in places other than bikes. Your bolters are already twin linked. Your going to get a lot more bang for your buck dropping presence on a thunderfire are rerolling every scatter dice it makes. My TFCs usually normally get about 5-6 hits. With prescience your going to double that on average.

In regards to a tank. Well, there are good reasons to use one. I've often used a chapter master to take a few hits. I won't take all 4 of his wounds as a tank, but more often than not I'm happy to toss a wound or two on him.

This is because the CM taking 2 wounds is roughly the same as losing 4 bikes. This can really help me keep my troops alive.
I wont do this if I need the CM to do some serious heavy lifting, like killing a wraithknight or riptide, but if there are no hard targets on the board, Ill happily give him 2 wounds as a tank.

PS - on bikes, go grav over plasma. Plasma is good and happy, but is best placed in drop pods. Bikes relentless and grav salvo is far to good of synergy to pass by.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Great analysis of RPP/DPP.

Thanks for this info, it was great. I was wondering about ways of tinkering with biker durability.. does the jink bonus from a WS character transfer over to allied units? Or not since it is chapter tactics.

IE could a White Scar techmarine/librarian whatever attach to a 7 man Black Knight unit so that they would get skilled rider AND +1 to jink saves?

Because having a character that functioned as a night shroud would be pretty boss. If so, you could go crazy and then throw in a night shroud as well to have a 2+ jink on your black knight squad...without turbo boosting. Ouch.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Great analysis of RPP/DPP.

Thanks for this info, it was great. I was wondering about ways of tinkering with biker durability.. does the jink bonus from a WS character transfer over to allied units? Or not since it is chapter tactics.

IE could a White Scar techmarine/librarian whatever attach to a 7 man Black Knight unit so that they would get skilled rider AND +1 to jink saves?

Because having a character that functioned as a night shroud would be pretty boss. If so, you could go crazy and then throw in a night shroud as well to have a 2+ jink on your black knight squad...without turbo boosting. Ouch.

It does not transfer. The model needs to have the Chapter Tactics rule to receive the benefit.

Good note on the prescience librarian, so let me ask; do grav guns (or plasma if I decide to go that route ) need TL for those shots on the grav squad? Or since it is a rube priest, should I take jaws and lightning on him?

Nards!

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Great analysis of RPP/DPP.

Thanks for this info, it was great. I was wondering about ways of tinkering with biker durability.. does the jink bonus from a WS character transfer over to allied units? Or not since it is chapter tactics.

IE could a White Scar techmarine/librarian whatever attach to a 7 man Black Knight unit so that they would get skilled rider AND +1 to jink saves?

Because having a character that functioned as a night shroud would be pretty boss. If so, you could go crazy and then throw in a night shroud as well to have a 2+ jink on your black knight squad...without turbo boosting. Ouch.

It does not transfer. The model needs to have the Chapter Tactics rule to receive the benefit.

Not only does the jink bonus not transfer, but putting a WS tank bike character with a non-WS bike squad lets your opponent use the focus fire rule to bypass the tank character (since the squad will have a different cover save from the character).

I was all for Grav Bike Command Squads before, and after eating their dirt personally I'm even more impressed by them.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I was all for Grav Bike Command Squads before, and after eating their dirt personally I'm even more impressed by them.

can you tell me what they did, and possibly how you use them?

 labmouse42 wrote:
In the analysis I've ran, the command squad has roughly the same RPP (resilience per point) compared to bike squads, except when shot by weapons that deny FnP.

Bike Squad
133.3333333 IG lasgun
49.99750012 bolter
13.33320003 PG
19.99980004 autocannon
13.33320003 LC

Command Squad
128.5714286 IG lasgun
48.21187512 bolter
12.85701431 PG
19.28552147 autocannon
8.571342875 LC

Damage Per Point
Their DPP (Damage per Point)values are also very similar vs MEQ and TEQ, but fail vs GEQ.
Bike Squad
37.03703704 GEQ
26.9360202 MEQ
20.2020202 TEQ

Command Squad
18.34215168 GEQ
26.80775873 MEQ
21.86948854 TEQ

Summary
Are command squads worth it?
- They are slightly more dangerous in assault
- They are not scoring.
- They have a smaller footprint (per point) than bike squads
- They are only 1 unit instead of 1.5 units (ie, less contesting ability - less overkill can be wasted, etc.)
- Weaker GEQ killing power may be bad if your facing lots of guardians, etc
- They will have better odds vs tanks and MCs
- They have no ablative bodies to lose without impacting firepower capacity. Bike squads can lose 3 models before this happens.
So are they worth it? That really depends on you. Personally I like to bring more bikes squads and spend those extra points on support elements.

Adding the Tank
Adding in a 2+ armor save character make a big difference with a command squad. Remember that a 2+ armor save is twice as durable as a 3+ armor save. However it does add to the point cost of the unit. So, a chapter master on a bike with artificer armor costs 170 points. He has 4 wounds, so that's identical to adding 8 bikes. 8 bikes would cost 168 points. Therefore adding a chapter master like that is nearly identical -- durability wise to adding more bikes. If you stick the CM in a squad with FnP, the CM actually is 33% more effective at tanking wounds.

This means that you can actually get more durability (and some more CC punch) by having a CM just sit in front and take the wounds. You want to use a CM for this as it had one extra wound (1/3 more wounds than a captain) for only 40 more points than a captain. The orbital bombardment is the icing on the cake.

You're missing a pretty big advantage (at least, I've double checked the rules and I can't find anything I miss). The Feel No Pain from the apoth spreads to any characters joining the unit. Between Khan and a Chapter Master (a very popular combo), that's on average, an extra 2.3 wounds - almost another character in its own right! If you're running those two (or more characters) in a squad together that's a huge advantage that you don't even hint at.

Why would you run Khan in that squad? The Chapter Master already makes your bike squads into troops, and you can make a Captain into something much more efficient than Khan.

Ricter wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
If you stick the CM in a squad with FnP, the CM actually is 33% more effective at tanking wounds.

You're missing a pretty big advantage (at least, I've double checked the rules and I can't find anything I miss). The Feel No Pain from the apoth spreads to any characters joining the unit. Between Khan and a Chapter Master (a very popular combo), that's on average, an extra 2.3 wounds - almost another character in its own right! If you're running those two (or more characters) in a squad together that's a huge advantage that you don't even hint at.

I did note it. That's why I said with FnP the CM is 33% more effective at tanking wounds. Point for point hes more efficient at taking damage than just more bikes with FnP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corollax wrote:
Why would you run Khan in that squad? The Chapter Master already makes your bike squads into troops, and you can make a Captain into something much more efficient than Khan.

Scout. Being able to bring your bikes further than 12" from your edge is pretty good. This is even better if your not going first. That keeps you from failing a LD check then falling off the board before you have your first turn.

 labmouse42 wrote:
In the analysis I've ran, the command squad has roughly the same RPP (resilience per point) compared to bike squads, except when shot by weapons that deny FnP.

Bike Squad
13.33320003 LC

Command Squad
8.571342875 LC

I have not run the numbers myself, but wouldnt LC be more similar to plasmaguns. Both units are bikers right. Both have T5, hence gets FNP against str9 weapons. Str10 is the different animal.

Thanks. That number is supposed to represent the ID value. I updated to reflect such.

The idea is once you lose the FNP the command squads value per point drops dramatically.

 labmouse42 wrote:

I did note it. That's why I said with FnP the CM is 33% more effective at tanking wounds. Point for point hes more efficient at taking damage than just more bikes with FnP.

Totally missed that last part, my bad.

It happens. Its my fault for printing a wall of text.

The white scars command squad with 4 grav guns, apothocary and captain with burning blade won my opponent the game last night against my iron warriors (barely ;P) but my oblitts and lord have consistantly been dropped by a single round of shooting from that squad. Is it a huge pointsink? Yeah. But damn scary to face.