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Game #2 of 3 - 2K Competitive - Jy2's Herald-Hammer Daemons vs Mortetvie's Eldau (Completed)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Do my "casual" Daemons have what it takes to beat a truly dangerous and good Eldar+Tau army?
Yes, I am blessed by the Chaos Gods today. Daemons annihilate the space elves.
Draw. Both armies are depleted by the end of the game.
No, the Chaos Gods are fickle and desert me in hour of darkest need. What should be have been a daemon romp turns out to be a route by the Eldar instead.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

This past week, I had a business trip down in SoCal. While there, I got a few games in. And since I drove down this time, I was able to bring a couple of my armies.


So begins my Ironman Rubber-matches with whom just may be one of the best Eldar players here in Cali - Adam Gati, aka Mortetvie. While there, I actually got in 3 games against his Eldau and with 3 different army builds. The first was with my ultra-dangerous and super-unbalanced NecrOrks. You can find that report here:

Game #1 of 3 - 2K Competitive - Jy2's Da Rushmore NecrOrks vs Mortetvie's Eldau

The 2nd was with my Herald-Hammer Daemons. Finally, my last match against him was a rematch of my double-FOC Wraithwing Tesla-crons from our Golden Throne practice game:


First off, an introduction to my opponent. Mortetvie is a very successful and a long-time Eldar player. He is also very, very good. Currently, he has been running his Eldau (Eldar+Tau) with much success. He's won numerous local RTT's. He recently beat Reecius' Imperial Wolves (Imperial Fists+Space Wolves) at the Golden Throne GT 2013 to win it all. Unfortunately, I couldn't make it there to defend my title (I was the inaugural Golden Throne Champion). Because of his success at the Golden Throne, he was invited to the Feast of Blades 2013 Invitational in the beginning of October. He then fought his way to a 5-1-1 record and a 9th place finish out of 110 very good players at Feast. And he did all of this with a deceptively good, extremely synergistic Eldar and Tau build that probably took many people by surprise (I know it took me by surprise the first time I played against him).


As for my Herald-Hammer Daemons, they have been on a tear as of late, dominating most of my opponents in the few games that I have played with them. My last three games with them include:

Priest-bomb Battle Sisters vs Jy2's Herald-Hammer Daemons

2K Herald-Hammer Daemons vs Brothererekose's Mechdar + Imperial Guards

1850 Herald-Hammer Daemons vs IG Air Cavalry

However, my game against Mortetvie may well be the 1st true test for my daemons. I'm currently not sure whether my new daemons are top-tier material, but this matchup against another GT winner and top-tier army will give me a lot of info. If I can beat his GT-winning Eldau army with my daemons, then I can seriously say that I have a GT-caliber army here. But no matter whether I win, lose or draw, I'm going to have fun here (fun going to town against my opponent, that is.....muahahahaha ).

BTW, Mortetvie has his own blog. If you're interested on his views and philosophies about the Eldar race (or just his views on 40K gaming in general), check it out.


The Spirit Chamber


-------------------------------------------------------------------


2000 Jy2's Herald-Hammer Daemons vs Mortetvie's Eldau


2000 Daemons

Fateweaver

Herald - Khorne, Juggernaut, Locus of Fury, Lesser Gift (Axe of Khorne)
Herald - Slaanesh, Steed, Lvl 2 Psyker, Locus of Grace, Greater Gift (Greater Etherblade)
Herald - Tzeentch, Disc, Lvl 3 Psyker, Locus of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
Herald - Tzeentch, Disc, Lvl 3 Psyker, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph)

18x Daemonettes
10x Pink Horrors
10x Pink Horrors
10x Pink Horrors

15x Flesh Hounds
19x Seekers of Slaanesh - Hearseeker
8x Screamers of Tzeentch



2000 Eldau

This is an approximation of his list going off my memory.

Primary:

Farseer
Spiritseer

5x Wraithguards - D-cannons
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatters
5x Wraithguards - D-scythes
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatters
3x Windrider Jetbikes
3x Windrider Jetbikes

5x Dark Reapers - Starswarm Missiles, Exarch w/Fast Shot
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatters
Wraithknight

Aegis Defense Line - Icarus Lascannon

Allies:

Tau "Buff" Commander - "The Works"

Riptide - Ion Accelerator, TL-Fusion, Early Warning Override

10x Kroots


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Mission: Bay Area Open

Primary: The Scouring - 4-pts

Secondary: Purge the Alien - 3-pts

Tertiary: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, 1-pt each


Deployment: Hammer & Anvil


Initiative: Daemons


-------------------------------------------------------------------


PRE-GAME THOUGHTS:

Daemons:

This is not going to be an easy fight. There are a few elements in Adam's army that concerns me. First is his reaper-star and their ability to ignore cover with insta-killing S8 shots. That's going to mean either a lot of dead dogs or dead screamers. Though I guess it isn't really as big a deal since I failed to get Invisibiltiy anyways. However, that presents me with another problem - I can only protect 1 unit at a time. No Invisibility and no Forewarning means that I am more vulnerable in this game than in any of my other games.

Another concern of mine is his wraithknight. He's got the shooting that can insta-kill Fateweaver if I don't get Iron Arm off or any of my other models. Moreover, he is the one unit my flesh hounds want no part of. I really don't want to get stuck into combat with his WK. Now I have a chance to kill him thanks to my Khorne Herald, but it isn't a very good chance at all. What I want to do is to charge him with my seekers instead. They should be able to tear his wraithknight apart.

My opponent actually has a lot of weapons here to deal with my army. Wraithguards (both the d-cannons and d-scythes), his WK, the reaper-star and his riptide can all insta-kill most of my Fast Attacks. Moreover, Hallucination has a chance to stop any 1 of my units in their tracks. If he can manage to successfully Hallucinate one of my 3 fast attack units, that can be a game-changer right there.

With that said, I do have 2 things going for me. The first is Scouring being the Primary. That means my incredibly durable fast attacks (well, one of them, at least) cannot be ignored as they are scoring. He cannot just focus on my troops and ignore my fast units. He will be forced to deal with them and for a MTO army, you want your opponent to be pre-occupied with those units. Secondly is that I am going first. Normally, I prefer to go 2nd against armies with fast, scoring troops, but against his army, I feel it is more prudent that I go first. That means I will have a chance to "power-up" before he lays on me with his firepower - cast psychic powers, use the Grimoire, put Fatey into swooping mode and hide some of my guys. It also means that he will have 1 less turn of shooting before my army is on him.

In any case, I don't think this game will be close. It's either going to be an a$$-whooping by one army or the other. If the dice goes slightly my way, I think my daemons can take it (and probably take it big). If not, then I think it will be a
dominating win by the space elves.


Eldau: (by Mortetvie)

This game was fun and challenging and I think very close. Going into it I was not sure what to target first-what the biggest threats would be and how to ultimately secure victory by getting the objectives/KP to pull out a win. I gave Jim first turn but was kind of nervous about not taking first myself to try and get a solid alpha strike on his demons-primarily the Khorne dog unit was going to be in my face very fast and I was worried about their 3++...The army is FAST and full of danger. Over the course of the game Jim made a lot of clutch rolls and at one time, my D-Scythes got 19 hits on the Khorne dogs but only rolled 4 wounds!!! Well, I'll leave it at that and let everyone guessing as to how the game turned out.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:

Spoiler:
Warlord traits:

Daemons: Re-roll the Warpstorm table

Eldar: ?


Psychic Powers:

Daemons:

Fateweaver - Misfortune + ?, Hallucination + Iron Arm

Slaanesh Herald - Terrify, Psychic Shriek
Tzeentch Herald #1 - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire
Tzeentch Herald #2 - Foreboding, Prescience, Flickering Fire


Eldar:

Farseer - Guide, Prescience, Scryer's Gaze
Spiritseer - Horrify, Hallucination



Daemon deployment to the left.


And to the right.

My troops will be deepstriking in.


Adam deploys his army way back, with his jetbikes in reserves. As I expected, he deploys his wraithknight across from my dogs to counter them.


Overview of our deployment.

Sorry for the lighting. We are playing under less-than-optimal lighting conditions (and at night).


Dogs then do their scout move. I try to move away from my opponent's WK (wraithknight).

My opponent opts not to steal the initiative.




-------------------------------------------------------------------


Daemons 1

Spoiler:

Daemon movement. I try to get Fateweaver and my mini-screamer-star behind the ruins that is semi-LOS-blocking. Khorne-dogs start heading towards my left flank (after the riptide and away from the WK).

As for powers, Fatey gets Iron Arm. Screamer-star and Khorne-dogs get Prescience and I believe I put the Grimoire on the dogs (maybe).


There is no shooting. Everyone just runs forwards.




Eldau 1

Spoiler:

Riptide novas for the 3++ and advance.

Psykers cast their powers.

I believe his Spiritseer Hallucinates my dogs, but either I manage to deny it (thanks to my Collar of Khorne) or he rolls a useless effect for Hallucination.


My opponent does the Eldar shuffle.


WK advances.

Crap. I under-estimated the distance between them, and I'm not going to like what my opponent does next.


Shooting by his riptide kills 1 dog.


Notice anything missing?

That's right.

My entire unit of seekers, including the Herald.....gone as my opponent focuses the shooting of his entire army against them. This also nets him First Blood. Ouch!

VP's - Daemons: 0, Eldau: 2


He then takes advantage of my strung-out dogs and assault.


His WK makes the assault as well.


He assaults both ends of my strung-out dogs with his MC's. This is NOT the position I want to be in. Moreover, my Khorne Herald does not make it in to be able to attack with his pile-in move.


Despite Prescience, his WK still whiffs in combat. I am fortunate to lose only 1 dog in combat.

Wow, a great turn for my opponent and a bad one for me. He's taken out one of the Big 3's and he's got the other one locked in combat. Now it's up to my screamer-star against the rest of his army.




Daemons 2

Spoiler:

I decide that I need to play aggressively. Only 1 unit of horrors come in and I deepstrike them behind his serpent.


Now this is NOT the position I want to be in.

Though, it isn't as bad as it seems. I can actually turn this to my advantage.


Dum dum dum dum.....

Enter my problem-solvers, the daemonettes. I am going to show you why you don't really want to combo-charge with your riptide.


Screamerstar and Fatey advance.

I believe I successfully Misfortune his reaper-star.


Horrors immobilize one of his wraithguard serpents.


Despite Fatey and the screamer-star blasting at them and Misfortune as well, my opponent only loses 1 dark reaper. I believe he denies the shooting of one of my Tzeentch characters.


Daemonettes then charge, and my S3 girls take out his T8 big guy like taking candy from a baby.

VP's - Daemons: 1, Eldau: 2


This, in turn, leads to my Khorne-dogs running down his riptide in a sweeping advance.

VP's - Daemons: 2, Eldau: 2

And just like that, I am back in the game and the pressure is on my opponent once again.




Eldau 2

Spoiler:

Eldau movement.


Kroots outflank onto my backfield objective.


Both units of jetbikes come in.

Wraithguards disembark.


D-scythe wraithguards get ready to toast my a$$.


Jetbikes (and maybe the scatter lasers from his immobilized serpent as well) shoot down 6 horrors.


Focused fire from the wraithguards only manage to down 2 doggies.

I don't really remember the details, but according to my opponent, his d-scythes only manage to wound 4 out of 19 hits!

I believe his reaper-star and the wave serpents manage to take off 3W from Fatey, though he is still flying.

My opponent didn't do nearly as much damage to my army as he had hoped. Next turn could be reallly bad for him.




Daemons 3

Spoiler:

My horrors mishap on another very aggressive deepstrike. My opponent then places them in the corner of my deployment zone.


Daemon movement. Wraithguards get Misfortuned.

Fateweaver swoops over them and kills 1 wraithguard with his vector-strike.


Daemonettes head on back after the kroots.


Herald drops off the Turtleglyph, which actually scatters into a better position than the initial drop.

Turtleglyph fails to produce a troop this turn.


I then go in for the kill. Both Fatey and the screamer-star goes after his jetbike troops.


After shooting, 1 unit of jetbikes is completely wiped out, and the other one - with just 1 bike left - is falling back.

VP's - Daemons: 3, Eldau: 2


I lose 2 dogs to Overwatch....


....and then wipe out his wraithguards in assault.

VP's - Daemons: 4, Eldau: 2

So that's 2 eldar troops down and 1 more falling back. 2 more troops to go and I just may be able to call it a day.




Eldau 3

Spoiler:

Lone jetbike regroups.


Eldar gets ready to kill some puppies.


Due to the lack of the Grimoire (who I put it on Fatey last turn), the space elves completely obliterate my puppies (and Herald also). And they were so cute also, they way they ripped through wraithbone armor....

VP's - Daemons: 4, Eldau: 4


Shooting from kroots take out 4 daemonettes.

Wow, what a difference between 3++ and 5++.




Daemons 4

Spoiler:

Last unit of horrors finally drop in here.


I am willing to sacrifice my Warlord just to take out his troops.

Of course, my Warlord does have a re-rollable 2++ from the Grimoire this turn.


Screamer-star start to head back after the kroots. His troops need to die.


However, I do split off 1 of the Heralds from the unit. He is going to take out that last biker. He is also my "guaranteed" Linebreaker.

Again, the Turtleglyph fails to produce any troops.


Fatey casts Flickering Fire on his wraithguards....and gets denied!


Biker....dead. Don't quite remember whether it was my lone horror or my Herald who took him out.

VP's - Daemons: 5, Eldau: 4


Daemonettes go after his kroots. Horrors shoot but only kill 2 kroots. They would then pass their Warpflame test.


I make what is probably my biggest mistake of the game. Instead of turboing my screamers after his kroots. I actually turbo them back and do the flyby attack on his reaperstar instead. Well, that didn't go so well. I only manage to kill 1 shield drone.

He's still got 2 troops on 2 objectives and my Turtleglyph isn't working!

It's a tense game once again as the momentum has once again shifted in favor of my Eldar opponent.




Eldau 4

Spoiler:

The eldar actually get ready for assault.


Kroots move to within rapid-fire range of my daemonettes.


The immobilized serpents shoots down my lone pink horror.

VP's - Daemons: 5, Eldau: 5


Between kroots and wave serpents, the eldar shoot down 9 daemonettes. Ouch!


Shooting by the reaper-star and others take out 4 screamers.


They then assault. I do 2W to his unit and he kills 3 of my screamers after Daemonic Instability tests.

I actually shoot myself in the foot here. My opponent was thinking about charging Fateweaver with his wraithguards. I then persuade him not to. The reason why I didn't assault his wraithguards last turn with Fatey (besides the fact that I thought I could shoot them down) was actually because I'd rather he charged my Warlord with his wraithguard instead. That would actually pull them off of an objective as well as protect Fatey from getting gunned down on his turn. It would also preserve my Warlord as well as guarantee myself Linebreaker.

Alas, I tell my opponent my plan and so he opts not to assault Fatey. Should have just kept my mouth shut.




Daemons 5

Spoiler:

I make another mistake here. I move my Herald in to help out Fatey against his troops. There goes my "guaranteed" Linebreaker. Fateweaver moves to contest his objective.

To make matters worse, even with his re-roll, Fatey fails his Grimoire test!!!

My army is rapidly self-destructing right in front of my eyes thanks to a couple of bad decisions on my part and some late-game dice.

To add insult to injury, my Turtleglyph still won't produce any troops.


Shooting takes out another 2 kroots. They then fail morale and flee!


Herald perils while trying to cast Flickering Fire.


However, Fatey comes through and shoots down 4 of the wraithguards.


Horrors then go to assault his kroots. I am hoping he would fail his morale test to regroup. Then the unit would be destroyed, but even if they don't, I still have the numbers advantage. That's 20 pink horror attacks with 5++ saves against 5 kroot attacks with only a 6+ save (or no saves?).


Mofo!!! His kroots beat my horrors 5-1 after Daemonic Instability tests.


What Fatey fails to do with his shooting, he succeeds with his assault as he finishes off the lone wraithguard.

VP's - Daemons: 6, Eldau: 5


However, his reaperstar also finishes off my screamer and Grimoire Herald.

VP's - Daemons: 6, Eldau: 7

Crap! The situation has just become dire for my daemons. Next turn, he can easily get both my Warlord and my last Herald. Right now, I am kicking myself for not sending my screamer-star in the other direction. That would have been almost a guaranteed win for me!




Eldau 5

Spoiler:


Wave serpents start to head out.


The Eldar get ready to wipe out any presence of the Warp in their home base. (Disregard the wraithguard in the photo. It is dead.)


Sigh....

Eldar takes out my Warlord and his sidekick.

VP's - Daemons: 6, Eldau: 9


Bad turtle, bad! Turtle gets eaten by a serpent.

VP's - Daemons: 6, Eldau: 10

In combat, the horrors and kroots flail harmlessly at each other.


We roll to see if the game continues and it does not.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


My opponent takes Purge the Alien, which is the Secondary.


This objective is contested.


Daemonettes are on a 2-pt objective.


My horrors only have a 1-pt objective.

So I have 3-pts of objectives for the Scouring as I failed to take his kroots off of the last objective. However, my opponent gets +3 VP's for the Scouring for killing all 3 of my Fast Attacks. Thus, we draw on the Scouring.

Finally, my opponent has all 3 bonus points - Warlord, First Blood (seekers) and Linebreaker (his kroots). I have none. My Eldau opponent takes the game and shuts me out 6-0.




Complete Domination by Eldau!!!





-------------------------------------------------------------------


POST-GAME THOUGHTS:

Spoiler:
Daemons:

I'm still kicking myself after this game. I had victory within my grasp....and then I just let it slip. What went wrong, at least for me?

1. I think my biggest mistake was to try to go after his reaper-star with my screamer-star. I was initially planning to go after his kroots with them, but then I changed my mind when I saw that my Warlord may be in trouble if I left him unsupported. Should've just left Fatey to his own fate. If I moved my screamer-star back, I stood a great chance of winning the Scouring, which was Primary. Take out his kroots and then I have my 3-pt home objective. I also deny my opponent 1 VP for killing a Fast Attack in the Scouring as well as 2 VP's for Purge (screamers and Herald). Sure, I might have lost my Warlord, but this was probably the safer play.

2. Sacrificing my Herald. Should have just let him stay hidden for Linebreaker.

3. Putting the Grimoire on Fatey instead of my flesh hounds. The smarter play would have been to Grimoire my hounds and probably fly Fatey off the table (or try to fly him behind the LOS-blocking ruins). I know my hounds (and Khorne Herald) definitely would have survived with 3++ instead of just 5++ invuln's to smash at least another unit.

4. My opponent wasn't the only one to have some fickle dice. I was just as much a victim to them as well - Fateweaver and my 2 Tzeentch Heralds shooting at his Misfortuned reaper-star, only to kill just 1 model, only killing 1 shield drone with 8D3 flyby attacks from my screamers, Fatey failing his re-rollable Grimoire test and getting denied when trying to shoot down the wraithguards the 1st time and my Portaglyph not producing any troops in 3 turns. I'd say we both had our share of randomness in this game.


This game also goes to show why I don't think Daemons are a top-tier army. They are very strong, no doubt. However, the element of randomness in a daemon army is what IMO keeps them on the bubble. All you need is just a bad Grimoire roll (even with Fatey there) or just 1 bad Warpstorm table and you could be out of the running for the top spot in a tournament. With Fateweaver in the army, the chances of failing a Grimoire test is 1 in 9. A typical game is 5 turns. That means a daemon player is bound to fail at least 1 Grimoire test in every 2 games on average. That means that in a Grand Tournament of 5-7 games, you're probably going to fail the Grimoire at least 2-3 times and it's even more without Fateweaver (or if Fatey gets killed). In such games, you chances of getting screwed is extremely high. You just can't do that against high-level players playing very strong, tournament lists.

And then there are the games where you don't get the powers that you need. Like in this game - no Invisibility and no Forewarning. Basically, I only have 1 power to protect 1 important unit. That means I am playing largely on a crutch with many points of failure in my army. I can guarantee you that the game probably would have been much, much different if I had gotten even one of those powers. In any case, daemons are strong. If they can get the dice going for them, daemons just may be the strongest army in the game and there is no army they can't beat. However, it is also because of their random nature, they are more prone to bad luck than most other armies. 1 bad dice at the wrong time and that's it - they are out of the running for the top spot. They are very close to being a top-tier army but it is just in their nature that they will self-destruct just when you need them not to the most.

Congrats to Adam for a fine performance. Despite losing both his wraithknight and riptide in 1 turn - a mistake I hope he doesn't repeat in the future - he systematically and methodically played his way back for the win. That's what the great players do. They don't give up even when things are looking grim. Instead, they re-assess their situation and re-strategize what they need to do to get the job done.




This message was edited 16 times. Last update was at 2013/11/08 00:25:32



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Fortress of Solitude

Golly, this will be interesting.

The Daemons have my vote, as their playstyle and abilities resemble very much those of your Necrorks. Unless mortevie plays radically differently the daemons should be able to pin him in his deployment zone and go for the objectives.

Better still for the daemons, all the killy blobs are scoring.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/05 03:53:03


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Sydney August 2014 Warhammer 40k Tournament-Best General 
   
Made in us
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I think I'll vote Daemons, for a couple of reasons:

1) They have substantially similar strengths as your NecrOrks list (they can quickly bracket your opponent into their DZ, and follow up by cleaning house), with better shooting and arguably better levels of survivability and scoring potential.

2) Extremely fast/tricky armies play to your strengths as a general. More importantly, this is a style that seemed to catch Mortetvie off-guard last time. If he keeps his serpents and bikes trapped in his DZ like last game, you should be able to do exactly the same thing you did in that game. (On the other hand, he may have learned from that experience, making things more difficult).

3) You consistently play high-objective-count game-types (which I actually like from a gameplay perspective). In many cases though, you have an advantage due to experience with this game-type and a strong list focus on area/objective control. Lists that focus on obliterating an opponent's army and seizing no more than a couple objectives (like some Eldar/Tau builds) will have trouble performing as well as your lists in games like this.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/05 04:10:54


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Looking forward to this match. I think that Axe of Khorne will be worth its weight in gold this game. With a 1/3 chance/Turn of IDing the Wraithknight, it denies a crucial Tarpit.

Alot of this game will come down to crucial powers and what units clash. The player with more control over how jy2 hits the eldar lines is going to have a huge advantage.

The Scouring will be a huge advantage for jy2. Hammer and Anvil is in Mortetvie's favor. Inititive will make it tough for Mortetvie to deal a substantial amount of damage and preemptive strike the linchpin units, but going second with Eldar jetbikes is always a sound strategy.

I vote narrow win for Mortetvie, but that was made before seeing who won initiative. It isn't going to be an easy fight, that is for certain. Jy2's Herald Hammer lists is a no joke competitive list.

40k is 100% Skill +/- 50% Luck

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San Jose, CA



Pre-game Analysis up.




Some more info. Might as well post it now for your voting pleasure.


Psychic Powers:

Daemons:

Fateweaver - Misfortune + ?, Hallucination + Iron Arm

Slaanesh Herald - Terrify, Psychic Shriek
Tzeentch Herald #1 - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire
Tzeentch Herald #2 - Foreboding, Prescience, Flickering Fire


Eldar:

Farseer - Guide, Prescience, Scryer's Gaze

Spiritseer - Horrify, Hallucination

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/05 05:28:56



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This game was fun and challenging and I think very close. Going into it I was not sure what to target first-what the biggest threats would be and how to ultimately secure victory by getting the objectives/KP to pull out a win. I gave Jim first turn but was kind of nervous about not taking first myself to try and get a solid alpha strike on his demons-primarily the Khorne dog unit was going to be in my face very fast and I was worried about their 3++...The army is FAST and full of danger. Over the course of the game Jim made a lot of clutch rolls and at one time, my D-Scythes got 19 hits on the Khorne dogs but only rolled 4 wounds!!! Well, I'll leave it at that and let everyone guessing as to how the game turned out.


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Thanks Adam. I will use your comments in my Pre-game Thoughts.




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Just read Turn 1, and I was not surprised to see the T3 W1 Seekers die off easily. I know they are fast, but they seem to die off before they can do anything in return. I have yet to field Seekers, since I do not have mines painted. Every time I have faced Seekers I usually shoot at them first due to them being so fragile. With the track record of what the Seekers have done or not done, it's been tough to consider adding them to my Demon Army. I know you use them as a bait or 'shoot at me' unit. Wouldn't you be better off with another Flesh Hounds unit or other Demon options?

What other benefits do you see in the Seekers other than their Fast movement and Rending attacks? They are still Str 3 Attacks, can they even wound the Wraithknight?

Thanks again for posting all your Battle Reports.
J
   
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Looking at turn 1-I wish my WK was where my riptide was as he would have tied the dogs up longer, allowed my riptide to shoot more and not been so vulnerable to rending from slaaesh.

Positioning is key in 40k!


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joshuafalcon wrote:
Just read Turn 1, and I was not surprised to see the T3 W1 Seekers die off easily. I know they are fast, but they seem to die off before they can do anything in return. I have yet to field Seekers, since I do not have mines painted. Every time I have faced Seekers I usually shoot at them first due to them being so fragile. With the track record of what the Seekers have done or not done, it's been tough to consider adding them to my Demon Army. I know you use them as a bait or 'shoot at me' unit. Wouldn't you be better off with another Flesh Hounds unit or other Demon options?

What other benefits do you see in the Seekers other than their Fast movement and Rending attacks? They are still Str 3 Attacks, can they even wound the Wraithknight?

Thanks again for posting all your Battle Reports.
J


I'm pretty sure JY2 uses them primarily because you HAVE to shoot at them. You honestly have no choice. Which makes them awesome in an MTO build, because it diverts fire from the other threats. They will kill anything with a toughness value. 14 Seekers will kill a Wraith Knight on the Charge. If you toss in prescience it's only 10. They're one of the most lethal units in the game….which is obviously offset by how easy they die. Haha

Edited for math.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/06 20:41:10


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I can't say I support the decision to give jy2 the first turn nor the deployment of the Wraithknight. The Axe of Khorne is a nasty weapon against the Knight. If that Knight falls, the Riptide will get run down as well. Only a single Tarpit was necessary here and IMO the Riptide could have done a better job on his lonesome. Also, I'm not understanding the Nova Charged Shield. The Hounds don't have rending or AP2 attacks and the Herald was way too far away to be contributing against the Riptide for two full turns. Were you concerned about not killing the Seekers? 3s to hit and 6s to wound vs a 2+ means the Riptide would actually have a solid chance of dealing more wounds to the hounds then he would take for a round or two. By getting the Wraithknight into combat you run the risk of getting him IDed and the Riptide swept jy2's T2.

T2 will be very interesting with the Daemonettes assaulting into the Wraithknight, the ID potential from the Herald, and the possible Flee from the Riptide. This could get ugly for Mortetvie especially if the Wraithknight gets IDed or the Riptide breaks, though you can never count out scoring Eldar Jetbikes. Either way, Mortevie gets one more good round of shooting before things get really ugly.

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Fortress of Solitude

At the end of turn 2 it is looking really bad for the Eldau. The Riptide/Wraithknight move was a blunder and the Eldau shooting has been underwhelming.

The Daemons should be able to go in for the kill now.

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joshuafalcon wrote:
Just read Turn 1, and I was not surprised to see the T3 W1 Seekers die off easily. I know they are fast, but they seem to die off before they can do anything in return. I have yet to field Seekers, since I do not have mines painted. Every time I have faced Seekers I usually shoot at them first due to them being so fragile. With the track record of what the Seekers have done or not done, it's been tough to consider adding them to my Demon Army. I know you use them as a bait or 'shoot at me' unit. Wouldn't you be better off with another Flesh Hounds unit or other Demon options?

What other benefits do you see in the Seekers other than their Fast movement and Rending attacks? They are still Str 3 Attacks, can they even wound the Wraithknight?

Thanks again for posting all your Battle Reports.
J

Although fragile, seekers are a huge threat with their rending attacks and their mobility as well. I use them for board control more than anything else.

I use seekers because I have the models (and I happen to like them) and they are finished (i.e. painted). I don't have another 15-20 flesh hounds nor do I really want to get more (ok, ok, I actually have another 10 unbuilt flesh hounds). However, with this list, I am trying to minimize the spam. It's uniqueness is how the various, different units in the codex all can work together with great chemistry.


 mortetvie wrote:
Looking at turn 1-I wish my WK was where my riptide was as he would have tied the dogs up longer, allowed my riptide to shoot more and not been so vulnerable to rending from slaaesh.

Positioning is key in 40k!


Yeah, totally agree. It's not just about firepower or assault capability. The Movement phase is just as important in 40K and the Movement phase is all about positioning....which is why my units are almost always in a position to support each other.


anonymou5 wrote:

I'm pretty sure JY2 uses them primarily because you HAVE to shoot at them. You honestly have no choice. Which makes them awesome in an MTO build, because it diverts fire from the other threats. They will kill anything with a toughness value. 14 Seekers will kill a Wraith Knight on the Charge. If you toss in prescience it's only 10. They're one of the most lethal units in the game….which is obviously offset by how easy they die. Haha

Edited for math.

Honestly, I don't really want my opponent to shoot at them, but because they are normally the only unit that is unbuffed, they tend to draw most of the enemy firepower.

I think I still have a lot to learn in regards to my army. I'm beginning to think that the best way to play my seekers may be to play them in a more reserve, counter-assault role. In this list, the flesh hounds are the anvil and the seekers are actually the hammer unit. Basically, flesh hounds hit and tie things up. Seekers then hit that unit and finish them off. But until then, they should hide so that my opponent is forced to shoot at units with 2+ saves.


 Zagman wrote:
I can't say I support the decision to give jy2 the first turn nor the deployment of the Wraithknight. The Axe of Khorne is a nasty weapon against the Knight. If that Knight falls, the Riptide will get run down as well. Only a single Tarpit was necessary here and IMO the Riptide could have done a better job on his lonesome. Also, I'm not understanding the Nova Charged Shield. The Hounds don't have rending or AP2 attacks and the Herald was way too far away to be contributing against the Riptide for two full turns. Were you concerned about not killing the Seekers? 3s to hit and 6s to wound vs a 2+ means the Riptide would actually have a solid chance of dealing more wounds to the hounds then he would take for a round or two. By getting the Wraithknight into combat you run the risk of getting him IDed and the Riptide swept jy2's T2.

T2 will be very interesting with the Daemonettes assaulting into the Wraithknight, the ID potential from the Herald, and the possible Flee from the Riptide. This could get ugly for Mortetvie especially if the Wraithknight gets IDed or the Riptide breaks, though you can never count out scoring Eldar Jetbikes. Either way, Mortevie gets one more good round of shooting before things get really ugly.

Good call. That is exactly what happens.


 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
At the end of turn 2 it is looking really bad for the Eldau. The Riptide/Wraithknight move was a blunder and the Eldau shooting has been underwhelming.

The Daemons should be able to go in for the kill now.

There is still a lot of fight left in my opponent. Maybe in the hands of any other opponent, it may be game over, but my opponent is a GT winner. Things aren't going to go down that easily for me.




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 jy2 wrote:






anonymou5 wrote:

I'm pretty sure JY2 uses them primarily because you HAVE to shoot at them. You honestly have no choice. Which makes them awesome in an MTO build, because it diverts fire from the other threats. They will kill anything with a toughness value. 14 Seekers will kill a Wraith Knight on the Charge. If you toss in prescience it's only 10. They're one of the most lethal units in the game….which is obviously offset by how easy they die. Haha

Edited for math.

Honestly, I don't really want my opponent to shoot at them, but because they are normally the only unit that is unbuffed, they tend to draw most of the enemy firepower.

I think I still have a lot to learn in regards to my army. I'm beginning to think that the best way to play my seekers may be to play them in a more reserve, counter-assault role. In this list, the flesh hounds are the anvil and the seekers are actually the hammer unit. Basically, flesh hounds hit and tie things up. Seekers then hit that unit and finish them off. But until then, they should hide so that my opponent is forced to shoot at units with 2+ saves.



Fair enough. Haha. That's often how I use my Daemonettes in my Circus/Hounds build. They Deep Strike in to support the Hounds with their slashy slash. People move WKs, Riptides and the like to threaten my Hounds, and the Hounds bypass them and the Daemonettes go in. (although when possible I like to multi assault Riptides with Hounds, always hilarious)

I like telling people that I include Daemonettes in my lists for two purposes. Mobile scoring and murder.

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Yep, losing the riptide like that was bad and dumb-lesson learned lol!

Also, Fatey passed a TON of grounding tests and invulnerable saves-he should have died my turn but alas, that is dice for you :(.

It was also a shame both of my bikes came on, perhaps I should have moved them elsewhere, who knows but I do remember failing 80% of their saves lol...

One thing you have to hand to Jim is his target priority and going after my scoring units was great play.

By now I have really been wishing I went first! Sometimes it's just better to try and get the alpha strike then have the last say on objectives.

Just a sort if editorial/aside: the seekers can't assault or move up to higher levels of ruins...I was thinking of ignoring them completely as focusing on the dogs and screamers while staying on higher levels o ruins would have taken the seekers out of the game for a while but that wouldn't have made for a very fun game lol...sometimes throwing caution to the wind and seeing what happens is the best way to learn in friendly games . For example, I learned valuable lessons in target priority, maneuvering and that its ok to choose firs turn if tactically sound in this game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 02:18:52


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 mortetvie wrote:
Yep, losing the riptide like that was bad and dumb-lesson learned lol!

Also, Fatey passed a TON of grounding tests and invulnerable saves-he should have died my turn but alas, that is dice for you :(.

It was also a shame both of my bikes came on, perhaps I should have moved them elsewhere, who knows but I do remember failing 80% of their saves lol...

One thing you have to hand to Jim is his target priority and going after my scoring units was great play.

By now I have really been wishing I went first! Sometimes it's just better to try and get the alpha strike then have the last say on objectives.


Lol, its always good to learn lessons, some are just kind of painful.

Jy2 does seem to have priority down game after game, and he is great at overloading a singly type of threat in an opponents army, fast moving durable assault units.

1st turn against an army like this is a must. The firepower your list can put out could very easily have hamstringed his advance. Target the Hounds and and let his Seekers kill themselves on DScythe Overwatch. Tough to do with an army that excels at winning games just by going second.

I look forward to reading the rest.

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I really wonder how many dogs I could have killed first turn...maybe 10-12? Would have really changed the game :(. Hindsight is a very cruel but informative teacher, sometimes .

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 mortetvie wrote:
I really wonder how many dogs I could have killed first turn...maybe 10-12? Would have really changed the game :(. Hindsight is a very cruel but informative teacher, sometimes .


Yeah, 8-10 was definitely possible. Enough to make the unit manageable. The benefit of hindsight.

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Turn 4 posted.


I think I should be able to finish this report later tonight.




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Dangerous exposing FW like that. Not that he might get assaulted, but that he might get multi assaulted with the Screamers. Daemonic Instability is a good way to take out Invincible Fateweaver.

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MI

Again, he puts his precious Jetbikes in harms way for no reason at all. Why?

Another good game and interesting read, nonetheless.

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 hippesthippo wrote:
Again, he puts his precious Jetbikes in harms way for no reason at all. Why?

Another good game and interesting read, nonetheless.


From what I have seen, he uses jetbikes less as objective capturers and more as troubleshooting support units.

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MI

For what, a hand full of bolter shots? Objectives win games, he was still in it before he fed his Bikes to Jim..

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Battle report completed.


Post-game Analysis coming up later.




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An extremely exciting back-and-forth of a report.

Thanks for sharing!

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Was a good game. Interestingly, I should have charged fatey and combo charged with reapers and it is likely he would have died to combat res... He was -3 ld from horrify, after all.

Also, killing that wraithguard unit was crazy bad dice on my part an good dice on yours but it was the best move at that point lol.

Was a very close game indeed! As far as my jetbikes go, meh-I moved them and hid them behind a ruins where I thought they would be safe but I guessed wrong :(.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 05:38:21


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The batreps that go back and forth are always my fav, this one was all over the map! Both sides seemed to have atrocious dice rolls at times but glad to see the Herald-Hammer rampage get stopped

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Great battle report (I follow mortetvie's blog) and there were two huge things that I took from this:

-Don't get rattled and play to the objectives. Many players would likely go into panic mode leading to bad decisions if they lose both a Wraithknight and Riptide in a single turn. Problem solving your way out of that is very significant.

-Only kiling a few Flesh Hounds from shooting and overwatch fire from Wraithguard with D-Scythes is horribly unlucky. I think the Flesh Hounds were probably the MVP as they essentially outlasted things they should have succumbed to.

Overall, very cool report and definitely one of those where you have to really deconstruct your opponent's army and problem solve every action/reaction. Thanks for sharing.

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Mortetvie, do you use a Shuriken cannon on your bikes? I've found that if they don't have it, they are best hidden somewhere completely out of range and LOS. If they do have it, then you can stay at around 24" and jump in front of LOS blocking terrain and back behind it with the assault jump. I realise you probably know all that, being an experienced player that you are, but just thought I'd mention it, as you seem to be sort of at a loss what to do with your jetbikes in the games that I've seen. I've been using those min squads since 4th ed, even when they were a lot more expensive, and they are one of the biggest reasons I've been winning more than losing even with an aged 4th edition Eldar 'dex in 6th.


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I'm talking about the times before the new codex, of course. Now they're even better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 12:28:45


 
   
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Great report! I can't wait for the final report. : )

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