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I've been taking little breaks from my UM drop pod force to toy with White Scars. I've yet to face WSerpent spam or a dedicated Tau gunline with the bikes. Anyone tried this yet or know of a tournament where this has happened?

I fought a WS spam with my ravenwing army. My army consists of 6 squads of 6 bikes, 2 with 2x melta, 4 with 4x plasma and attack bike w/ MM, a 3 man command squad with apothecary, darkshroud, librarian, sammael. He had no serpents left after turn 3. He choose to attempt to erase the command squad with banner of devastation over keeping up the shields and most of his tanks died to melta / assault. The fire prisms can do a little damage, but the cover save is a bonus there and I run a formation so almost all my squads are within 6 of the shroud. It did die turn 1 to a serpents shields though.

Why didn't he keep the shields up against all that melta again?

You just turbo super fast on turn one and charge turn two. Victory. Make sure his vehicles can't get away during that time with placements blocking his escape routes.

The Eldar player does get a turn in there you know.

Martel732 wrote:
Why didn't he keep the shields up against all that melta again?

I'm guessing that if he didn't drop the Shields he wouldn't have enough firepower to kill enough bikes and would lose serpents to Krak Grenades instead of Melta. Dropping the Shields and trying to kill as many bikes as possible was probably his best option.

A serpent without under slung Shuriken only kills 1.9 Bike/turn by dropping the shield, under one if they keep it up. Against Bikes dropping your Shields doubles your firepower. 5 Serpents only kills 9-10 Bikes per turn.



The to OP, Outflanking Grav Centurions and Grav Bikers absolutely tore out the Riptide core to my FE army in a tournament Sat. With Hammer and Anvil its almost an autowin vs Riptide Spam, and still a big advantage using Scout in Vanguard and Dawn of War. He attached an Eternal Shield Chapter Master on Bike to the Cents to Tank and grant Scout/Outflank and Khan with Grav Bikes. Allied Astropath made it an 8/9 chance of coming in with 8/9 chance of choosing what side. It was the hardest counter I have yet faced.

Are these Eldar lists not using Wraithknights and warp spiders to assist the WS?

Cents can't scout.

Bikes actually do pretty well against eldar Martel732, eldar aren`t as invinsible as you make them out.

Wraithknights fall dead to gravguns, serpents don`t like them either, and bikers move fast enough to actually catch those serpents in close combat. Warp spiders aren`t that awesome, they have good damage output, but a bad jump, and they are caught in the open or in close combat by the fast moving bikers.

If the serpents keep their shields up, they don`t have the killing power they need, and if they drop their shields, they can get taken out by melta on the bikers or by support units.

Sure, eldar can win that match-up, and there are some units that are horrible for bikers (dark reapers with tau commander), but in my experience, my marines have a good chance against eldar.

Don`t have enough experience against good tau lists to talk too much about that match-up, but I would envision that it should be doable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jamo wrote:
Cents can't scout.

Put a character with scout in the unit and they can

Eldar are still a major problem for those not fielding bike spam yet. I realize I need the latest gimmick, but I'm hesistant because I don't know if bikes will be good for BA or if BA will even get gravy guns.

Martel732 wrote:Are these Eldar lists not using Wraithknights and warp spiders to assist the WS?

Well each Wraithknight means at least one less Serpent. Wraithknights die easier to Grav than Serpents do, their shooting is negligable vs the Bikes cover save, and when they get into combat with the bikes their weapon skill means they are killing only 2-3, then the Bike Hit and Run out with the possibility of their Grav still in tact. It only take ~13 Grav Shots to down a Wraithknight, which is less than it takes to kill a Serpent.

Warp Spiders are good and can damage bikes, but the SM army has more than just bikes in it as the Eldar army has more than just Serpents.

Jamo wrote:Cents can't scout.

Notice how I said they were joined by the White Scars Bike Chapter Master, an IC with the Scout USR, which is granted to the squad of Centurious?

What about SM lists that aren't White Scars with Khan? The chances drop off quite a bit I'm guessing?

Jamo wrote:
Cents can't scout.

DTs can, Cents can have a DT.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar are still a major problem for those not fielding bike spam yet.

Very true, but the fact that Bike Spam or armies utilizing Grav are around does affect Serpent Spam armies and ultimately changes the Meta as a whole, and as the internet changes we often see a following in local lists. But, it doesn't necessarily mean every local meta gets changed. Serpent Spam is definitely a problem for many many armies.

All and all sounds promising. I think I might develop the WS more. I've ran them in smaller matches or as allies, but I haven't done the dedicated WS bike horde yet... I think its time.

Martel732 wrote:
What about SM lists that aren't White Scars with Khan? The chances drop off quite a bit I'm guessing?

Grav bikers still work, they don't need WhiteScars expecially the Eldar aren't ignoring the Armor Save most of the time. It takes two Squads to with Grav/Grav/CombiGrav to down a Serpent. The bikes cost marginally more and the Serpent is only killing 1.9-2.5 Bikes per turn. Doesn't matter the Chapter Tacitcs, Bikes do well against Serpents.

But, outflanking and scouting Centurions are really only possible with White Scars. Scouting Cents have a 36" threat Range T1 and have enough shots to drop 1.5 Wave Serpents/Turn with Split Fire depending on how the FAQ Grav. RAW, no cover saves makes it a hard counter to Wave Serpents. I hope they keep it.

 Lobukia wrote:
I've been taking little breaks from my UM drop pod force to toy with White Scars. I've yet to face WSerpent spam or a dedicated Tau gunline with the bikes. Anyone tried this yet or know of a tournament where this has happened?

My 4 Serpent/2 Wraithknight list got toasted by White Scars at my last tournament. The problem is that the Bikes will get to you sooner or later, and clever placement makes it very easy for the Marine player to keep his Grav alive.

Martel732 wrote:
What about SM lists that aren't White Scars with Khan? The chances drop off quite a bit I'm guessing?

RW with Sammy work just as well. Slightly different but the changes are cosmetic really. You've still got a lot of scouting bikes with hit and run. RW and WS are both an excellent counter to the current meta.

I don't play loyalist scum, but I do however play a big CSM nurgle bike squad with a sorcerer on bike, so it is more less the same strats, the WSerpents aren't really that much of a problem there. Tau on the other hand decimate my squads and I assume the loyalist ones being T5 instead of 6 should be easier targets. I know the white scars get some kind of improved jink save? or something along those lines, a broadsiders unit can make you save enough times to decimate the unit on 3+ svs and in the worst case scenario you get their plasma bomb next to your bikes, without cover, and melt them in 1 turn.

Just like the introduction of Tau to the general meta made Fliers less prominent and annoying...I think you're going to see less of an issue with Serpents as Tyranids come out soon.

Mechdar already has a tough time handling any kind of horde efficiently.

I think things are going to balance out a bit soon...even bikes might be a little less common if move run assault with new fleet is true.

But this is all simple possibility.

I play Mechdar and horde bugs.

Can't mechdar just spam the wounds on hordes like they do marines? I mean, they kill marines *through* the 3+ armor, so won't they just be killing that many more horde models?

Martel732 wrote:
Can't mechdar just spam the wounds on hordes like they do marines? I mean, they kill marines *through* the 3+ armor, so won't they just be killing that many more horde models?

Not enough shots...it doesn't matter how strong they are...especially with tyranids who get their 6+ and then a 5+ almost all the time.

And Eldar can't "jump" a horde like it can marines or other average sized armies...it does get boxed in.

The only bonus is...you never really need your shield up.

Though who knows what Hive Guard are bringing too.

 ductvader wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can't mechdar just spam the wounds on hordes like they do marines? I mean, they kill marines *through* the 3+ armor, so won't they just be killing that many more horde models?

Not enough shots...it doesn't matter how strong they are...especially with tyranids who get their 6+ and then a 5+ almost all the time.

And Eldar can't "jump" a horde like it can marines or other average sized armies...it does get boxed in.

The only bonus is...you never really need your shield up.

Though who knows what Hive Guard are bringing too.

Well, if the Eldar don't have enough shot vs the hordes, the marines have zero chance. This is what I was afraid of in the war of never-ending shooting escalation.

Martel732 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can't mechdar just spam the wounds on hordes like they do marines? I mean, they kill marines *through* the 3+ armor, so won't they just be killing that many more horde models?

Not enough shots...it doesn't matter how strong they are...especially with tyranids who get their 6+ and then a 5+ almost all the time.

And Eldar can't "jump" a horde like it can marines or other average sized armies...it does get boxed in.

The only bonus is...you never really need your shield up.

Though who knows what Hive Guard are bringing too.

Well, if the Eldar don't have enough shot vs the hordes, the marines have zero chance. This is what I was afraid of in the war of never-ending shooting escalation.

I predict Eldar will need to start relying on Scorpions Storms Guardians, and Hawks a bit more than they currently are...

But we're getting off topic.

True, but its all interrelated. It's just super frustrating because 85% of the marine codex doesn't do anything in a competitive sense.

Marine have always purposefully been the middle ground.

Good at everything...everything. Great at nothing. And then chapters and other books allow you to play to certain strength a bit more...but nothing like the xenos and chaos armies can.

Marines always last because they have enough toys to deal with it all...to a certain extent the same is true of guard. Both can adapt to the meta better than most.

Bikes are big now...and when bugs come out...LoD, SternGuard, and especially Imperial Fists will start to see more use.

I find that untrue. There are a few things in the marine codex that are relatively not worth their points in people's opinions, but I actually love the codex. That codex is able to run multiple different armies that specialize in different things. Not many codexes can have 5 competitive armies made from it. Calgar + UM spam is a decent list. I am aware that gravspam bikes is considered most competitive, but lists change per new codexes. I'm thinking we may start seeing whirlwinds and more thunderfire moving up in competitive with the new tyranid codex coming soon.

Martel732 wrote:
True, but its all interrelated. It's just super frustrating because 85% of the marine codex doesn't do anything in a competitive sense.

That is a ridicolous claim, there are lots of good units in the SM codex. The heavy and fast slots are highly contended, and while bikes are the decisively best troop, the others are fully usable in some configurations. There are also many good HQ`s (and many bad) The elite slot is generally a bit lacking, but there are some flashes of light in there as well.

I won the last tourney I attended with space marines. I went up against 2x screamerstar deamons, eldar, 2x heldrake chaos and wraithwing + flyerspam necrons. It was pretty much only missing tau to be a run against the gauntlet of the "best" 40k lists.

I ran white scars bikers, but my list included scouts+storm, thunderfires, stormraven, stormtalons and a dual flamer speeder - all very good units when used in the right context.

My most frequent opponent is a very capable eldar player, with access to a lot of wave serpents. I`ve played against 8 skimmer lists, 3x wraithknight lists and other nasty eldar lists, and in general, it is an interesting and open fight each time. Things just aren`t as bleak as you make them out to be, the new marines are plenty capable of taking the fight to all other codexes.

I find the internal balance to the new marine codex to be very poor. There are so many units that just seem like something no one would ever use. And so far these posts haven't mentioned any of them. For good reason.

Marines

Good:
Chapter Master
Libby
MotF
Most Special Characters
Command Squads
Honour Guard
Sternguard
Legion of the Danged
(Termies and Vanguard are situational at best, but might be good)
Crusader Squads
Tacticals
Scouts
StormTalons
StormRavens
Attack Bikes
Bike Squads
Landspeeders
(Assault marines, maybe)
Vindicator
Stalker
Hunter
Dev Cents
Devastators
Thunderfires
(Landraiders can work and Whirlwinds too)

That's a pretty good list of good units, IMO