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Checking if you have enough AT is easy now a days.

Can you kill a Knight in 1 turn? If not, you need more AT.

What is the current opinion on Wyverns for ITC play? I’m looking at running 6 Basilisks, a total of 13 HWTs with Lascannons, Pask with all Plasma, an Artemia Hellhound, and 90 Infantry with 5 Mortars. Wyverns seem like they fill a gap in the list nicely but I’ve been warned against them. I wanted to field 2 in order to hit Cultists/Gaurdians/Fire Warriors camping on objectives while also being able to add some fire volume to things like Reapers and Hellblasters. The indirect fire and decent long range seems to synergize with a large screen of infantry as well as provide enough dice to damage light infantry significantly. Am I wrong to think they’re competitive?

the issue with wyverns is that they provide nothing mortars don't already do while being a damn sight more expensive. Sure wyverns got to reroll wounds but at that price point you're comparing 4d6 shots to 9d6 shots which can become reroll all misses if they're cadian and ordered or just gain rerolls 1 to hit/wound if they're other regiments. sure they're tougher and have a better svae but they're also a single model with a degrading statline as well.

The main point in their favor then seems to be the rule of 3. I’d love to just field 6 HWTs with Mortars instead of 2 Wyverns, but I’m already fielding 9 Lascannon teams. Right now in my list, the only option for Mortars are Infantry Squads or something from Forgeworld. Wyverns seem like the most efficient option.

In order to provide reroll to hit for mortars one need to invest additional 15pts per team. Wyverns are faster and much harder to kill. Assuming that bassies are also in the field, wyvern will be much less likely targeted by enemy. HWT is 6W 3T Sv5+, every two wounds You lose 1d6 attacks.

Wyvern can also benefit from catachan,cadian and tallarn doctrine, while for HWT only cadian one is useful

So HWT is very much glass cannon. As long as it is hidden it will perform better. Second they become visible or enemy has ingore LoS weapon, they are dead.

Another: mortar team is currently super cost efficient. We can anticipate its cost going up this CA IMO

Marshal_Gus wrote:
The main point in their favor then seems to be the rule of 3. I’d love to just field 6 HWTs with Mortars instead of 2 Wyverns, but I’m already fielding 9 Lascannon teams. Right now in my list, the only option for Mortars are Infantry Squads or something from Forgeworld. Wyverns seem like the most efficient option.

Put those lascannons into infantry squads. In HWT they die when opponent wants them dead. In HWT only weapon worth anything is mortar as those can be put out of LOS. Very expensive weapon that needs LOS? Death sentence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:
So, my list wasn't bad eventually.
I didn't played it very well because, eh, it was my first time with it, but it worked.
I needed a bit more projection capabilities and more bodies, definitely.

So in order to go 2000 pts, I made this one. However, I am afraid I will need more AT weaponry at 2000 (even if people don't play a lot of vehicles) and this list is really less armored than my 1500pts one (it worked well at 1500).

Swap veteran melta guns to plasma. Cheaper, better. And I would try to find points for scion HQ. Then put that and scions to patrol of their own to get exploding 6's and put tank commanders and russes to own spearhead for extra CP and ob sec leman russes(meltas to plasmas alone almost pays this off...)

edit: that does result in less CP actually. bat+spearhead+patrol<bat+bat. Adding another scion squad and scion HQ to turn patrol into battallion would fix that. I would consider making veterans into those(and command squad with 4xplasma if points enough)>

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
Is anyone really finding success with Leman Russ tanks outside of command tanks? Every time I end up bringing them they end up just being a wall at best, and vastly outperformed by other alternatives such as Basilisks

Basilisks are great and vastly out perform LRBT at killing stuff, they are the hammer that kills enemy units but at T6 you definitely need to hide them and screen them otherwise you just die. OTOH you don't have to hide LRBT at T8 although you still need to screen. Tank Orders to reroll Turret shots, Cadian rerolling ones, and overlapping fields of fire can make them a threat so that your opponent cant ignore them.

In summary Basilisks are better at being a hammer but LRBT can be the anvil.

I wouldn't say Baslisks vasly outperform the LRBT for killing stuff. Against hard targets (T8 and/or 3+ saves without invulnerable), the basilisk will outperform the LRBT pound for pound, but given the russes extra shots, it really excels against a ton of targets.

Don't get me wrong, I love my bassies. Just pray you don't see 5++ invulnerable saves.

 Ordana wrote:
Checking if you have enough AT is easy now a days.

Can you kill a Knight in 1 turn? If not, you need more AT.

This is my biggest challenge these days, cramming enough firepower to kill, or at least cripple, T8, 28W w/3++.

Mathwise, plasma scions seem to do it best, but now you gotta keep the rest of your army alive for a turn to pull that off.

What do we have, that can start on the table, to dish that kind of damage? An artillery parking lot seems the next best thing, maybe, but could easily take half your army or more.

Maybe a cheap brigade for boots on the ground and then a couple spearheads full of TCs, basilisks and manticores? Investing that much into armor, would a skyshield or VSG actually be worth it for once?

I don't know, what's a Knight-killing pure AM list look like? I'm gonna work on this...

TankCmdr wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Checking if you have enough AT is easy now a days.

Can you kill a Knight in 1 turn? If not, you need more AT.

This is my biggest challenge these days, cramming enough firepower to kill, or at least cripple, T8, 28W w/3++.

Mathwise, plasma scions seem to do it best, but now you gotta keep the rest of your army alive for a turn to pull that off.

What do we have, that can start on the table, to dish that kind of damage? An artillery parking lot seems the next best thing, maybe, but could easily take half your army or more.

Maybe a cheap brigade for boots on the ground and then a couple spearheads full of TCs, basilisks and manticores? Investing that much into armor, would a skyshield or VSG actually be worth it for once?

I don't know, what's a Knight-killing pure AM list look like? I'm gonna work on this...

Well - LR demolishers and manticores are going to be your top performers here. Battle cannons aren't bad ether (maybe even better because they don't have to get into close combat range)

Realistically though - without mortal wounds you are best off ignoring a 3++ knight with 28 W and killing everything else.

Yup that's how I've been playing lol, just ignore the biggest scariest thing on the table and take enough bodies to win despite the damage it deals.

It's just a matter of pride now, I guess. I don't like things I can't find a way to kill.

Pask + 3TC should do 13-15 wounds for 846, not bad...

3 double shooting punishers does 9 wounds with +1 to hit stratagem without rerolling'1. That is only about 500 points. Question - do you have 9 punisher tanks? LOL.1 thing is for sure - you will have no trouble killing his infantry.

everything cadian
9 punishers and as many infantry with lascannons as you can fit.

Quick list I put together
9 punishers with hull heavy bolter (3 units so it's legal)
2 Batallions
4 CC
6 infantry las squads


That leaves
160 points - thats enough for HB sponsons on each tank or you can upgrade all hull mounts to lascannons or upgrade a few tanks to commanders...

Honestly this list looks disgusting now that I am thinking of it.

Rule of 3 for the CCs, sadly. I love punishers, but the 24" range will be a caveat, though if you manage to go first, and the Knight is not way back, you might pull it off

Edit: vultures could fix the range issue, officer of the fleet for rerolls, but youd lose OFoF

TankCmdr wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Checking if you have enough AT is easy now a days.

Can you kill a Knight in 1 turn? If not, you need more AT.

This is my biggest challenge these days, cramming enough firepower to kill, or at least cripple, T8, 28W w/3++.

Mathwise, plasma scions seem to do it best, but now you gotta keep the rest of your army alive for a turn to pull that off.

What do we have, that can start on the table, to dish that kind of damage? An artillery parking lot seems the next best thing, maybe, but could easily take half your army or more.

Maybe a cheap brigade for boots on the ground and then a couple spearheads full of TCs, basilisks and manticores? Investing that much into armor, would a skyshield or VSG actually be worth it for once?

I don't know, what's a Knight-killing pure AM list look like? I'm gonna work on this...

Let us know when you find it, cause I've found no guard artillery combo capable of one rounding a 3++ Castellan under 2000 points, and I've spent a lot of time on the mathhammer website.

A battalion of 3x scion ccs 3x max size scion troops with plasma pistols/4xpg in rapid fire range can one round a 5++ normal knight for 843 points. Though if your opponent let's that happen, they deserve to lose it. You can squeeze in another 27 plasma shots with another 3 max sized squads but then you can't deep strike them all because you go over 50% points.

My solution for AM is similar to my Deathwatch's: Ally in two gallants and chop the fether up to get around the 3++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TankCmdr wrote:
Yup that's how I've been playing lol, just ignore the biggest scariest thing on the table and take enough bodies to win despite the damage it deals.

It's just a matter of pride now, I guess. I don't like things I can't find a way to kill.

Pask + 3TC should do 13-15 wounds for 846, not bad...

How are you getting 13-15 wounds? I'm getting 9 for that setup without orders/hull lc.

28 shots, around 21 hits, 10.5 wounds, 3.5 through the saves, 7 damage

With the reroll shot die order, they average 9 shots each, 36 shots, 26.75 hit, 13.37 wound, 4.5 past save, 9 damage.

4 lascannon shots aren't going to add much to that through the 3++ and certainly aren't going to get an extra 4-6 damage through.

You dont have to 1 turn a Castellan with 3++. you need to kill a normal Knight with a 4++.

If you kill of the normal knights in time the Castellan doesn't matter, it can't deal with the amount of units you have.
Kill the Castellan and the rest of the Knights can still tear you apart.

TankCmdr wrote:
Rule of 3 for the CCs, sadly. I love punishers, but the 24" range will be a caveat, though if you manage to go first, and the Knight is not way back, you might pull it off

Edit: vultures could fix the range issue, officer of the fleet for rerolls, but youd lose OFoF

Oh that is with standard punisher russ which come in squadrons. I suggested maybe making a few commanders with the remaining points.

RogueApiary wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TankCmdr wrote:
Yup that's how I've been playing lol, just ignore the biggest scariest thing on the table and take enough bodies to win despite the damage it deals.

It's just a matter of pride now, I guess. I don't like things I can't find a way to kill.

Pask + 3TC should do 13-15 wounds for 846, not bad...

How are you getting 13-15 wounds? I'm getting 9 for that setup without orders/hull lc.

28 shots, around 21 hits, 10.5 wounds, 3.5 through the saves, 7 damage

With the reroll shot die order, they average 9 shots each, 36 shots, 26.75 hit, 13.37 wound, 4.5 past save, 9 damage.

4 lascannon shots aren't going to add much to that through the 3++ and certainly aren't going to get an extra 4-6 damage through.

That's with rerolling one's, pound them to dust, overlapping fields of fire, and hull LCs. 8.75 BC hits --> 4.375 wounds --> 1.46 failed saves --> 2.9 damage.

LC will hit 97% of the time not moving --> .65 wounds --> .21 failed saves --> .76 damage

Total damage on average: ~3.66 per pask or tc with buffs

 Xenomancers wrote:
3 double shooting punishers does 9 wounds with +1 to hit stratagem without rerolling'1. That is only about 500 points. Question - do you have 9 punisher tanks? LOL.1 thing is for sure - you will have no trouble killing his infantry.

everything cadian
9 punishers and as many infantry with lascannons as you can fit.

Quick list I put together
9 punishers with hull heavy bolter (3 units so it's legal)
2 Batallions
4 CC
6 infantry las squads


That leaves
160 points - thats enough for HB sponsons on each tank or you can upgrade all hull mounts to lascannons or upgrade a few tanks to commanders...

Honestly this list looks disgusting now that I am thinking of it.

I think you might be better off just getting more infantry squads with the 150 points.

The tricky part is getting them all in 24" range. Though, if you're willing to sacrifice Cadian reroll 1's for Vostroyan +6" that might be less of an issue. Kind of surprised nobody's tried this yet. It's not like 9 LR hulls is a significant investment when 13 FW Hellhounds made it into the competitive scene.

He can pop Smoke on all of them first turn after advancing and get them into position. Group them tight so you have to multicharged them. I like it but fast moving Melta like SOB would frack this army up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wouldn't Pask and 9 Annihilators, with OLFoF and Old Grudges drop 30 Wounds on T8, 3++ save?

At ~1750pts, it had better. There's no room left for the rest of an army lol!

TankCmdr wrote:
At ~1750pts, it had better. There's no room left for the rest of an army lol!

luckily we can still fit in a Battalion and some HWT Mortars to clear the chaff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Resipsa131 wrote:

TankCmdr wrote:
At ~1750pts, it had better. There's no room left for the rest of an army lol!

luckily we can still fit in a Battalion and some HWT Mortars to clear the chaff.

Cant even do that because it’s more like 1861. So I guess you just run a 129 point spearhead with mortars a CC and an Astropaths to throw -1 on Pask

Resipsa131 wrote:

TankCmdr wrote:
At ~1750pts, it had better. There's no room left for the rest of an army lol!

luckily we can still fit in a Battalion and some HWT Mortars to clear the chaff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Resipsa131 wrote:

TankCmdr wrote:
At ~1750pts, it had better. There's no room left for the rest of an army lol!

luckily we can still fit in a Battalion and some HWT Mortars to clear the chaff.

Cant even do that because it’s more like 1861. So I guess you just run a 129 point spearhead with mortars a CC and an Astropaths to throw -1 on Pask

Yeah, I'm a much bigger fan of the 9 punisher version of this theoretical list. Even still, that 30" range with 9 LR hulls trying to stay bunched together is at the mercy of terrain.

Yeah, the vostroyan punisher spam is juicy, I'd like to see how it plays.

It got me thinking, what about:
9 Vultures w/twin punisher cannons
90 Infantry
3 CCs
Straken
Priest

Two battalions, one air wing,
2000 on the dot

TankCmdr wrote:
Yeah, the vostroyan punisher spam is juicy, I'd like to see how it plays.

It got me thinking, what about:
9 Vultures w/twin punisher cannons
90 Infantry
3 CCs
Straken
Priest

Two battalions, one air wing,
2000 on the dot

The fact that this list is possible horrifies me, but would be hilarious to see on a table nonetheless.

Can vultures be squadroned? Ifso then that's pretty cool!

 Vaktathi wrote:

TankCmdr wrote:
Yeah, the vostroyan punisher spam is juicy, I'd like to see how it plays.

It got me thinking, what about:
9 Vultures w/twin punisher cannons
90 Infantry
3 CCs
Straken
Priest

Two battalions, one air wing,
2000 on the dot

The fact that this list is possible horrifies me, but would be hilarious to see on a table nonetheless.

Ditto. I imagine a superheavy spamming list would be difficult (like any skew list) but i think with 18 punisher gatlings even knights beginn to struggle at 360 shots .
On the other hand, any INfantry heavy list would probably go cry in a corner.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

TankCmdr wrote:
Yeah, the vostroyan punisher spam is juicy, I'd like to see how it plays.

It got me thinking, what about:
9 Vultures w/twin punisher cannons
90 Infantry
3 CCs
Straken
Priest

Two battalions, one air wing,
2000 on the dot

The fact that this list is possible horrifies me, but would be hilarious to see on a table nonetheless.

Ditto. I imagine a superheavy spamming list would be difficult (like any skew list) but i think with 18 punisher gatlings even knights beginn to struggle at 360 shots .
On the other hand, any INfantry heavy list would probably go cry in a corner.

Agreed, the anit tank on that is lacking but "Quantity has a Quality all of it own. "

RogueApiary wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
3 double shooting punishers does 9 wounds with +1 to hit stratagem without rerolling'1. That is only about 500 points. Question - do you have 9 punisher tanks? LOL.1 thing is for sure - you will have no trouble killing his infantry.

everything cadian
9 punishers and as many infantry with lascannons as you can fit.

Quick list I put together
9 punishers with hull heavy bolter (3 units so it's legal)
2 Batallions
4 CC
6 infantry las squads


That leaves
160 points - thats enough for HB sponsons on each tank or you can upgrade all hull mounts to lascannons or upgrade a few tanks to commanders...

Honestly this list looks disgusting now that I am thinking of it.

I think you might be better off just getting more infantry squads with the 150 points.

The tricky part is getting them all in 24" range. Though, if you're willing to sacrifice Cadian reroll 1's for Vostroyan +6" that might be less of an issue. Kind of surprised nobody's tried this yet. It's not like 9 LR hulls is a significant investment when 13 FW Hellhounds made it into the competitive scene.

Humm - the cadian reroll 1's and +1 to hit are vital to the strategy I think. Is there anyway to increase the accuracy of vostroyan russ?

 Xenomancers wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
3 double shooting punishers does 9 wounds with +1 to hit stratagem without rerolling'1. That is only about 500 points. Question - do you have 9 punisher tanks? LOL.1 thing is for sure - you will have no trouble killing his infantry.

everything cadian
9 punishers and as many infantry with lascannons as you can fit.

Quick list I put together
9 punishers with hull heavy bolter (3 units so it's legal)
2 Batallions
4 CC
6 infantry las squads


That leaves
160 points - thats enough for HB sponsons on each tank or you can upgrade all hull mounts to lascannons or upgrade a few tanks to commanders...

Honestly this list looks disgusting now that I am thinking of it.

I think you might be better off just getting more infantry squads with the 150 points.

The tricky part is getting them all in 24" range. Though, if you're willing to sacrifice Cadian reroll 1's for Vostroyan +6" that might be less of an issue. Kind of surprised nobody's tried this yet. It's not like 9 LR hulls is a significant investment when 13 FW Hellhounds made it into the competitive scene.

Humm - the cadian reroll 1's and +1 to hit are vital to the strategy I think. Is there anyway to increase the accuracy of vostroyan russ?

Unfirtunately, only one of them can get the +1BS for the Vostroyan unique strategem. Tank commanders can give a couple reroll 1's out.

You probably wouldn't be getting the cadian reroll 1's since the Knight player would likely stay outside of 24", forcing you to move up. Losing the cadian strategem hurts but I think two tank commander punishers + 9 regular punishers all with triple HB still one rounds the Knight. 30" range is a lot more forgiving for getting all 11 tanks in place IMO, especially if they start their Knight at their back board edge.

Cadian would definitely be the better choice vs. any chaos list as the relic would shred everything in range for a turn.

God, now I really want to try this.

If he Knight player wants to stay outside of 24" range thats perfectly fine cause it means he is losing the game on objectives anyway.