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Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






People have asked me how I make characters, how I price them, and how I balance them.
Well, here's a one-stop-shop for how-to, and I figured, I'd lend my ear to people making their own things.
I'll also be including a set of 'new' Universal Special Rules created within the 40k Homebrew community, and slowly create a list of upgrade costs.
Hopefully as it grows, other people will join in and help with reviews and improving each others work, and expand on the guide, USR list and the glossary.

So, here we go - Ovion's Unit Creation Guide:
To make an effective Unit / Fandex / Supplement / Extended Codex, you first need a solid idea.
Without a driving force behind it and a goal for the unit, you'll pile on WAY too much junk.

You then need to really, for the most part, balance them really well - I mean, basic Marines, but with a few special rules or a couple of changes here and there is fine. (priced accordingly)
Basic Marines all with Thunder Hammers and Lascannons, less so. (It'd also be around 64pts each - so if you did that and it cost less, that's also bad.), but basic Marines, or Sisters, all armed with two Bolt Pistols instead of a Bolt Pistol and Boltgun, and have a set of twin-pistol options, would be fine and still be 14pts base.

And be sure to cost everything accordingly, even over cost it to ensure people are happy to play it.

As a general rule, each upgrade (+/-1stat, +/-1USR, etc) is 10pts.
Leadership is 5pts per +/-1.
For all wargear, or anything there's an equivalent item for already, use that items cost, use the latest 'universal' price for it you can.
There are exceptions, for example Eternal Warrior is 35pts. (As set in the Space Wolves Codex, and confirmed in the Black Legion Supplement and Codex: Space Marines)
You can also check the costs of stats, special rules and wargear below, or request a cost check in this thread.

These prices are Per Model for HQs, Monstrous Creatures, Single Model Units and Vehicles.
Per 3 Models for 'Elite troops' (As a general rule, this is usually the ones that are between 3 and 10 models for unit size).
Per 5 Models for 'Basic troops' As a general rule, this is usually the ones that are 10+ models for unit size).
And on rare occasions, per 10 models for 'Grot' style units.
Though you unltimately know what's elite infantry and what's basic when you're making it.

Certain weapons / rules, you can divide the cost by the average use.
For example, the Amaranthine USR I created for everyones use, is basically Eternal Warrior with a dice roll.
The standard is Amaranthine 5+, it stops instant death 1/3 of the time, so it costs 1/3 of Eternal Warrior (12pts)
On this note, always round up, it's better to cost a little more, than to be undercosted.

Conversely, if you confer things to groups, you need to cost it by the 'average' amount of that thing.
So if your character gives every character in your army a 'free' Power Weapon (this is an extreme example, but I've seen it happen), you've got assume the average army is going to have a minimum of 3 characters (1 HQ, 2 Troop), more likely 5-10, (1-2 HQ, 1-2 Elites, 2-4 Troops, 1-2 Fast Attack / Heavy Support) and remember in a 'standard' army (Single Force Org Chart), you can have up to 17 units, so that's a potential 255pts of free upgrades, and some can take even more in that single chart with things like Tech Marines or Haemonculi where you can take multiples per slot, so you could be getting 300, or even more in 'free' upgrades, so it needs to be priced accordingly.
But we'll call it 7 (A fairly common number - 1-2 HQ, 2-6 Troops and 1-4 other units with characters). A Power Weapon is 15pts each, so the rule costs 105pts.

Other things require some guesswork, testing and/or experience (having a feel for a thing), especially 'stranger' rules and gear, but in general the costing given here is a solid basis overall.

Furthermore, lay out the units VERY clearly, include all the rules, make sure all the rules and gear are in the unit entry, then any unique rules and gear are listed underneath.
This gives a clear, concise picture of what it actually has, what are options, etc.
If it's a mess, missing things, or hard to read, people just won't want to read it, and it'll be harder to sell it to your opponent.

For example, take my Repentia Superior. (This is based of the old Sisters of Battle Book, and even when I update it to Adepta Sororitas, I probably won't change this example, if I do, it'll likely be a different unit entirely.)
Repentia Superior Name at top, so we know what we're looking at.
Spoiler:
Make sure to put the unit in a spoiler, starting after the first name, it makes it neater on the forum, and stops everything from being WALL OF TEXTy, and makes quotes easier.
Army: Sisters of Battle The Army the unit belongs to clearly stated at the top. It matters less in a thread dedicated to that army, but it helps, especially in multiple-unit/army threads, and if printed as a single sheet for opponents, it makes it instantly clear what army it's for.
BG: Repentia Superior are longer served and more scarred than their sisters, maybe bearing some form of bionics, and more heraldry.
Likely they could have been redeemed and rejoined ranks, but they don't see themselves as such so continue on their path.
And for those within the Order Penitent, there's no chance for redemption anyway, just a few more days fighting the enemy.
Background at the top, to give you the details on just what the unit your about to read is, so people know why it has what it does.
While you don't have to provide a background, it certainly helps your case.


FO: Elites Always include where it goes in the Force Org Chart. Always.
Squad: Repentia Superior Fairly Self explanatory, you have it at the top - but this makes it look more professional and coherent.
You may replace any Mistress of Repentance with a Repentia Superior This is a special rule that details where it goes, you won't normally have this, but when you have such rules, they go here.
Unit: Repentia Superior, Points Per: 20, Models: 1, Unit Type: Infantry (Character), Fairly straight forward, Unit Name (model), points of each, number you can take (unique units are marked with a *), and the unit type. This, with the stats and wargear / special rules section, want to be repeated for each different model in a complex unit.
WS-4, BS-4, S-3, T-3, W-2, I-3, A-3, Ld-9, Sv-6+*. Statline. Core of the unit, make it clear and easy to read. Invulnerable Saves are marked with a *.
Force org changing rules, unit restrictions, etc, would go here.
Wargear: Wargear section, listing ALL the wargear.
Eviscerator As you can see, each item gets a different line.
Frag Grenades This makes it easier to read quickly, and harder to miss things.
Krak Grenades

Special Rules: Special Rules section, as above, list everything, on its own line.
( C: Precision Shots ) While you don't have to, I like listing the rules conferred by other things.
( C: Precision Strikes ) It helps you remember the little extras given by things, and shows your opponent what gives it what.
( C: Look Out, Sir (4+) ) Simplest method is brackets, initials of the rule/item giving it the rule, then the rule.
Acts of Faith
Fearless
Feel No Pain (5+)
Fleet
Rage
Shield of Faith
Soul of the Martyr
Zealot
( Z: Fearless ) List these conferred rules in the order they are given.
( Z: Hatred ) This usually means things granted by unit type are first, then wargear, then other rules.

Soul of the Martyr: And then underneath the unit entries, you put any new / unique rules and gear. In this case, it's just the one special rule.
The Repentia Superior and her make one final push to repay their enemy in kind.
This Act of Faith is used in the Assault Phase.
If successful, do not remove any models in the unit if they are killed before they have attacked.
Instead place them on their side.
After all other models involved in the assault have made their attacks, any mortally injured model placed on its side gets to make its full attacks, with no bonuses for charging.
After these attacks have been made, any models on their side are removed as casualties. I also like to start a new line after each full stop / period. It breaks up blocks of text a little, making it a little easier to read.
Always run a costing yourself, so that before you put it up, you can have a solid idea on what its points should be.

Continuing the Repentia Superior example:
Costing
Spoiler:
Base: Repentia - 17
+1W +10/3
+1A +10/3
+1Ld +5/3
+Zealot +10/3
+Soul of the Martyr +40/3
Total: 42. -22pts for Mistress of Repentance: 20pt upgrade.
Now, this was a tricky one, Soul is 4 times as effective as Spirit, so I decided to cost it at 40, but it's still Elite Infantry, so the cost is distributed across '3'.

Obviously this isn't everything to making units, some of it is just practice and experience.
And maybe the Repentia Superior wasnt the best choice for an example in some ways, but in others it shows the 'fuzzy math' needed quite nicely.

I call this a 'Linear' costing system. Everything is pretty straight forward, and along a set path, step to step.
There are limits to the 'linear' system, for some things rules are more effective, or rarer, and others it's less effective, or more common, but normally, these even out, and the overall price ends up 'feeling' right.

With a 'non-linear' system, things are a little more precise, but requires everything be priced with a scaling cost, and requires sets of equations, lists and charts, with everything changing with each stat change, etc.


Templates for unit entries can be found here
Standard Unit Derivatives, for default rules conferred by unit types, can be found here

Homebrew Glossary:
This section contains the definitions for terms related to the fanmade, to help newer people understand terms.
Spoiler:
Homebrew:
Originally refering to the creation (brewing) of Beer at home.
It is now used as a broader term to refer to fanmade, or homemade content for games.

Model / Squad / Unit:
Games Workshops terminology for Model, Squad and Unit is interchangeable.
This can often make it difficult to distinguish between them.

Unit:
Primarily refering to the overall Entry (Unit Entry), covering single models and entire squads.

Fandex:
A Fandex is an entire standalone document encompassing an entire Army or Army List.
It is either a new / original IP, adapting existing IP / Fictional force, or adapting an existing Codex and making changes.

Supplement:
A Supplement is an extension or addition to an existing Codexes Army List, often modifying it into an alternate, seperate Army List reliant on the original for the core units and rules.

Extended Codex:
An Extended Codex adds to extending Codex Army Lists. It makes no changes to the orignal Army List and simply provides additional rules and units.

Stat / Rules Upgrades Library:
This section contains the costs, basic equations and common rules for creating units.
Spoiler:
Stats:
When increasing or decreasing the Statline of certain models, use the following guidelines:
+/-1 Weapon Skill (WS), Ballistic Skill (BS), Strength (S), Toughness (T), Wounds (W), Initiative (I) or Attacks = +/- 10pts per.
+/-1 Leadership (Ld) = +/- 5pts per.

When Changing unit Type, use the following guidelines:
Character +10
Independent Character +15
Bike +20
Jetbike +25
Eldar Jetbike +30 (Eldar / Dark Eldar +15)
Jump +15
Jet Pack +20
Monstrous Creature +50
Beast +15
Cavalry +15
Flying Monstrous Creature +90 (+40 for existing Monstrous Creature)
Terminator Armour +40
Super-Heavy Vehicle +60
Super-Heavy Walker +100
Super-Heavy Flyer +30
Gargantuan Creature +160 (+110 for existing Monstrous Creature)
Flying Gargantuan Creature +200 (+150 for existing Monstrous Creature, +110 for existing Flying Monstrous Creature)

USR Library:
This section contains the costs for the official special rules that can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Codexes and associated literature.
Spoiler:
-A-
Acute Senses +10pts
Adamantium Will +10pts
And They Shall Know No Fear +10pts
Armourbane +10pts
Assault Vehicle +10pts
-B-
Barrage +10pts
Blast +10pts
Blind +10pts
Brotherhood of Psykers +25pts
Brotherhood of Sorcerers +25pts
Bulky +/-0pts
Very Bulky +/-0pts
Extremely Bulky +/-0pts
-C-
Concussive +10pts
Counter-Attack +10pts
Crusader +10pts
-D-
Daemon +15pts
Deep Strike +10pts
-E-
Eternal Warrior +35pts
-F-
Fear +5pts
Fearless +10pts
Feel No Pain (2+): T1-2 +25pts / T3 +40pts / T4 +45pts / T5 +55pts / T6 +65pts / T7+ +75pts
Feel No Pain (3+): T1-2 +20pts / T3 +30pts / T4 +35pts / T5 +45pts / T6 +55pts / T7+ +65pts
Feel No Pain (4+): T1-2 +15pts / T3 +20pts / T4 +25pts / T5 +35pts / T6 +45pts / T7+ +55pts
Feel No Pain (5+): T1-2 +5pts / T3 +10pts / T4 +15pts / T5 +25pts / T6 +35pts / T7+ +45pts
Feel No Pain (6+): T1-2 +3pts / T3 +5pts / T4 +8pts / T5 +13pts / T6 +18pts / T7+ +23pts
Fleet +10pts
Fleshbane +10pts
Force +10pts
Furious Charge +10pts
-G-
Gets Hot (Multi Shot) -10pts
Gets Hot! (Single Shot) -5pts
-H-
Hammer of Wrath +10pts
Hatred +10pts
Haywire +10pts
Hit & Run +10pts
-I-
Ignores Cover +10pts
Infiltrate +15pts
Instant Death +10pts
Interceptor +5pts
It Will Not Die +10pts
-J-
Jink +10pts
-K-
-L-
Lance +10pts
Large Blast +20pts
-M-
Master-Crafted +10pts
Melta +10pts
Missile Lock +10pts
Monster Hunter +10pts
Move Through Cover +10pts
-N-
Night Vision +5pts
-O-
Outflank +10pts
-P-
Pinning +5pts
Poisoned (2+) +10pts
Poisoned (3+) +8pts
Poisoned (4+) +6pts
Poisoned (5+) +4pts
Poisoned (6+) +2pts
Power of the Machine Spirit +10pts
Prefered Enemy (Specific) +5pts
Prefered Enemy (All/Multi) +10pts
Psychic Pilot +15pts
Psyker +25pts
-Q-
-R-
Rage +10pts
Rampage +10pts
Relentless +10pts
Rending +10pts
-S-
Scout +10pts
Shred +10pts
Shrouded +15pts
Skilled Rider +10pts
Skyfire +15pts
Slow and Purposeful +5pts
Smash +15pts
Sniper +10pts
Soul Blaze +5pts
Specialist Weapon -5pts
Split Fire +10pts
Stealth +10pts
Strafing Run +10pts
Strikedown +10pts
Stubborn +10pts
Supersonic +10pts
Swarms +/-0pts
-T-
Tank Hunters +10pts
Torrent +15pts
Twin-Linked +50% of parent weapon -or- +10pts to confer to unknown weapon.
Two-Handed -5pts
-U-
Unwieldy -10pts
-V-
Vector Dancer +10pts
-W-
-X-
-Y-
-Z-
Zealot +15pts

New-USR Library:
This section contains new special rules created by the community and are available for use as found and priced here.
Spoiler:
-A-
Amaranthine:
On a roll of a 5+ the model may ignore the effects of Instant Death caused by an unsaved wound.
Amaranthine (6+): 6pts
Amaranthine (5+): 12pts
Amaranthine (4+): 18pts
Amaranthine (3+): 24pts
Amaranthine (2+): 30pts

-B-
-C-
-D-
-E-
-F-
-G-
-H-
-I-
-J-
-K-
-L-
-M-
-N-
-O-
-P-
-Q-
-R-
-S-
-T-
-U-
-V-
-W-
-X-
-Y-
-Z-

Wargear Library:
This section contains the most current costs for commonly used pieces of Wargear, as found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Codexes and associated literature.
Spoiler:
Coming Soon.

New Wargear Library:
This section contains new wargear created by the community and are available for use as found and priced here.
Spoiler:
Coming Soon.


As this grows, hopefully it'll become a sort of one-stop-shop for newcomers to crearting units, and a valuable resource for everyone.

This message was edited 18 times. Last update was at 2014/02/20 21:39:07


   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived





A vacuum where wargaming is impossible :C

Tysm, this is exactly the kind of thing I need to work with

Exalted.

 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Three things to add:

1) You should say something about elegance in design. Just because you can do something and have the points be balanced doesn't mean that you should do it. Before making a new unit you need to think very carefully about what elements of a character/unit/etc are defining characteristics that absolutely must be represented in the rules, and which are just fluff trivia that don't really add anything to the design. One of the most common newbie mistakes is trying to add a rule for every minor fluff detail of a character/unit and the result is a cluttered mess.

2) You should also talk about inventing entirely new rules. Just modifying stat lines and adding USRs might be the safest way of making new rules, but it's severely limited in what you can do. To make interesting new rules you're going to have to move beyond the basics and start inventing entirely new stuff. Even something as basic as a FOC swap (a very popular idea for making your own rules) is completely outside your system.

3) You need to cover vehicles. Infantry units are important, but no army is complete without its vehicles/MCs.

As a general rule, each upgrade (+/-1stat, +/-1USR, etc) is 10pts.


This is at best a very rough approximation. For example, IG veterans gain +1 BS at a cost of +2 points per model compared to a basic guardsman, where your "10 points per 5 troops models" rule would mean a cost increase of +4 points per model. But for that +2 points per model they also gain a huge improvement in upgrade options (3 special weapons, doctrines). Or consider C:SM sternguard, which get two stat increases (+1 A, +1 LD) for +8 points per model compared to tactical marines. Your "per 3 models" rule makes this upgrade cost 5 points, which means you're paying 3 points for the special issue ammo and improved upgrade options. But most people would agree that those prices are backwards, most of the increased point cost of sternguard is from their shooting upgrades, the LD bonus is nice but not game-changing, and the extra attack is pretty much worthless.

In reality how much an upgrade is worth depends heavily on the unit's role, its existing stats, etc. Giving +1 attack on a shooting unit is marginal at best, but that same +1 attack on a melee unit is incredibly powerful. Likewise for upgrades/special rules/etc. A better gun is worth much more on a BS 4 marine than on a BS 2 ork. Eternal Warrior is marginal on a 2-wound sergeant upgrade but incredibly powerful on a 5-wound HQ death star. A bonus to cover is worth much more on an objective camping unit than on a melee unit that has to rush forward out of cover. Etc.

Certain weapons / rules, you can divide the cost by the average use.
For example, the Amaranthine USR I created for everyones use, is basically Eternal Warrior with a dice roll.
The standard is Amaranthine 5+, it stops instant death 1/3 of the time, so it costs 1/3 of Eternal Warrior (12pts)


Just make sure that you consider the frequency of those use/no-use situations. That's a straightforward example since it's a fixed die roll, but a common mistake is assuming that if you have two situations, one where it works and one where it doesn't, you divide the cost in half. But that neglects the question of which of those situations is more likely. If the no-use situation is rare (for example, a hypothetical EW that didn't work against weapons with AP 4 or worse, when most ID-causing weapons have good AP) then you can't deduct many points.

USR Library:
This section contains the costs for the official special rules that can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Codexes and associated literature.


These are very bad. Your point costs don't seem to be very well thought out. For example, stealth is 10 points, but shrouded is only 15 points despite being at least twice as powerful. Armorbane is the same +10 points as melta, despite the fact that melta is just armorbane with a major limit on when you can use it. Master-crafted is twice as expensive as twin-linked, despite twin-linked being better in every way. Strafing run, an extremely powerful rule for most flyers, cost the same as supersonic, a rule that is usually just a drawback (flyers rarely want to go flat out instead of shooting, and losing hover mode can hurt). Etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/20 11:28:06


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





Seconding what pdog said. 2+ FNP on a daemon prince for 25pts? Yes please
   
Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






 Peregrine wrote:
Spoiler:
Three things to add:

1) You should say something about elegance in design. Just because you can do something and have the points be balanced doesn't mean that you should do it. Before making a new unit you need to think very carefully about what elements of a character/unit/etc are defining characteristics that absolutely must be represented in the rules, and which are just fluff trivia that don't really add anything to the design. One of the most common newbie mistakes is trying to add a rule for every minor fluff detail of a character/unit and the result is a cluttered mess.
I did touch on that to start, about having a solid plan for the unit.
This is really the first iteration of the guide, and it will be continually changing - and I'm not happy with some listed prices either, but it'll evolve as we go.


2) You should also talk about inventing entirely new rules. Just modifying stat lines and adding USRs might be the safest way of making new rules, but it's severely limited in what you can do. To make interesting new rules you're going to have to move beyond the basics and start inventing entirely new stuff. Even something as basic as a FOC swap (a very popular idea for making your own rules) is completely outside your system.
That's actually covered, (or was), unless I accidently deleted it in editing.
I'll add more on this with the next edit


3) You need to cover vehicles. Infantry units are important, but no army is complete without its vehicles/MCs.
Define cover vehicles?
Vehicles and MCs are single units, and as such are a +10per thing... otherwise there's not a lot different to standard unit creation apart from the statline, which is in the templates section.
We can expand on this if you have any ideas on what to add though


As a general rule, each upgrade (+/-1stat, +/-1USR, etc) is 10pts.


This is at best a very rough approximation. For example, IG veterans gain +1 BS at a cost of +2 points per model compared to a basic guardsman, where your "10 points per 5 troops models" rule would mean a cost increase of +4 points per model. But for that +2 points per model they also gain a huge improvement in upgrade options (3 special weapons, doctrines). Or consider C:SM sternguard, which get two stat increases (+1 A, +1 LD) for +8 points per model compared to tactical marines. Your "per 3 models" rule makes this upgrade cost 5 points, which means you're paying 3 points for the special issue ammo and improved upgrade options. But most people would agree that those prices are backwards, most of the increased point cost of sternguard is from their shooting upgrades, the LD bonus is nice but not game-changing, and the extra attack is pretty much worthless.
Wait... what?
10/5=2, 10/3 = 3.3.
I have absolutely no idea where you got 4pts per from at +1BS

And for Sternguard, that's a 15pt stat bonus over 3 models, but so is the ammo as a default upgrade, so it makes the Special Issue Ammo 3pts per, but 9pts.
It's likely a base 10pt upgrade, but across 3 models, that's 3.3, and rounding down gets the result.
I didn't just pull these numbers out of the air, I've gone over numerous codexes and compared units, and the majority of the time, it seems to hold up.

And while you have more options, the cost of options is built into the option, being it's full cost.
That unit with 4 Meltaguns costs an extra 40pts, has less boots on the ground making it easier to kill, and in most cases has bumped from 'Basic' to 'Elite' infantry,
Guard are a special case, in that they almost all seem to be basic infantry.

And further more, by your examples, they don't cost any more just for the options (because the options cost a ton)


In reality how much an upgrade is worth depends heavily on the unit's role, its existing stats, etc. Giving +1 attack on a shooting unit is marginal at best, but that same +1 attack on a melee unit is incredibly powerful. Likewise for upgrades/special rules/etc. A better gun is worth much more on a BS 4 marine than on a BS 2 ork. Eternal Warrior is marginal on a 2-wound sergeant upgrade but incredibly powerful on a 5-wound HQ death star. A bonus to cover is worth much more on an objective camping unit than on a melee unit that has to rush forward out of cover. Etc.
Yes, and I said there are limitations to the system, but that it invaribly works out overall.
This is also part of why I wanted to do the USR libary (I'll touch on that again in a moment)
The cost of Eternal Warrior is fairly well covered though, and it's been confirmed to be valued by Games Workshop as being 35pts several times.
In the case of EW, it should also be a factor that very few units should have it.


Certain weapons / rules, you can divide the cost by the average use.
For example, the Amaranthine USR I created for everyones use, is basically Eternal Warrior with a dice roll.
The standard is Amaranthine 5+, it stops instant death 1/3 of the time, so it costs 1/3 of Eternal Warrior (12pts)


Just make sure that you consider the frequency of those use/no-use situations. That's a straightforward example since it's a fixed die roll, but a common mistake is assuming that if you have two situations, one where it works and one where it doesn't, you divide the cost in half. But that neglects the question of which of those situations is more likely. If the no-use situation is rare (for example, a hypothetical EW that didn't work against weapons with AP 4 or worse, when most ID-causing weapons have good AP) then you can't deduct many points.
Yes, I know what you mean - and I do account for it myself, and when people don't I tell them about it.
As things get more complex, things get fuzzier and at the end of the day this covers the basics, and a framework.
The thread is also intended for people to post characters, get feedback, ask questions and learn.


USR Library:
This section contains the costs for the official special rules that can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Codexes and associated literature.


These are very bad. Your point costs don't seem to be very well thought out. For example, stealth is 10 points, but shrouded is only 15 points despite being at least twice as powerful. Armorbane is the same +10 points as melta, despite the fact that melta is just armorbane with a major limit on when you can use it. Master-crafted is twice as expensive as twin-linked, despite twin-linked being better in every way. Strafing run, an extremely powerful rule for most flyers, cost the same as supersonic, a rule that is usually just a drawback (flyers rarely want to go flat out instead of shooting, and losing hover mode can hurt). Etc.
Yeah, some of this isn't especially well done.
Mostof it is.
Most of it fits the standard +10.
And up till now, with a few exceptions (such as Eternal Warrior and S&P, and things confered by gear), it's pretty much all been +/-10 when I do things.
But the costs were done after a LOT of work, and late in the day, looking back, some of it isn't best done, and others will change as I go through and find appropriate specific, current costs for them.
Shrouded being 15pts is based off certain gear that grant it, but this is subject to change, as is much of it.
As I said above, it's hardly a finished work, and will keep changing.
And likely need updating and adapting with each codex release, to some minor or major extent.
And it'll be input like this that helps at the end of the day.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Seconding what pdog said. 2+ FNP on a daemon prince for 25pts? Yes please
Yeeeah, I think at that point I was semi-autoing it - looking at it, I can see my brain said standard FnP is 10pts, meaning each pt is 5.
Really it wants to be +5 for 6+, +10 for 5+, and +10 for each subsequent.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/20 13:27:02


   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Good to see this being thrashed out and peer-reviewed. I've used some of Ovion's rules of thumb in my many hombrew designs (see sig for links), but anything approximating a consistent set of unit design rules would be awesome.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

Novice Ginevra stories: Bolter B-Word Privileges (Sisters of Battle), Ollanius Pius Requiem (Sisters & Guard), Able Baker (Inquisition), The Beginning & Dancing with the Astartes (Marines)
A sequel: Army of Minerva - A Sister Ginevra Story
And you should read Lynta on why there is no canon in 40K

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

 
   
Made in il
Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot






Your FnP is still wrong, as the Tau shows it REALLY depends on what you put it on, and can't really get blanket price.

Crisis suit? 15 for regular 5+.
Riptide? 35 for the same.


FnP on anything T5 is worth alot more then on T4 who in turn is much more then T3.
T6 and above are a whole other class where it's prices should spike even higher.

Dito for eternal warrior.

Some USR power depends on the unit stats, and should be priced by formula, not by blanket prices.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived





A vacuum where wargaming is impossible :C

 BoomWolf wrote:
Your FnP is still wrong, as the Tau shows it REALLY depends on what you put it on, and can't really get blanket price.

Crisis suit? 15 for regular 5+.
Riptide? 35 for the same.


FnP on anything T5 is worth alot more then on T4 who in turn is much more then T3.
T6 and above are a whole other class where it's prices should spike even higher.

Dito for eternal warrior.

Some USR power depends on the unit stats, and should be priced by formula, not by blanket prices.

This makes sense.
What we need is a price scaling for each thing.

Something like:

FnP: [T1:2, T2:5, T3:10, T4:15, T5:20] etc.

 
   
Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






Yeah, but as I keep saying, this is a base - things should generally even out, but you still need to consider things case-by-case.

And as it grows, it can add extra rules, costs, etc.
Problem is, as you add the non-linear stuff, then everything needs to be non-linear, which will be really complex, likely require an excel sheet, and take a long time to put together.

   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived





A vacuum where wargaming is impossible :C

 Ovion wrote:
Yeah, but as I keep saying, this is a base - things should generally even out, but you still need to consider things case-by-case.

And as it grows, it can add extra rules, costs, etc.
Problem is, as you add the non-linear stuff, then everything needs to be non-linear, which will be really complex, likely require an excel sheet, and take a long time to put together.

If such a spreadsheet would come into being, I'd want a copy

 
   
Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






Yeah, but it's a loooong way off.

   
Made in il
Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot






 Ovion wrote:
Yeah, but as I keep saying, this is a base - things should generally even out, but you still need to consider things case-by-case.

And as it grows, it can add extra rules, costs, etc.
Problem is, as you add the non-linear stuff, then everything needs to be non-linear, which will be really complex, likely require an excel sheet, and take a long time to put together.



True, but on some cases its more obvious then others.

FnP is an obvius offener, as your T matters ALOT, and it also combos into EW pretty well.
EW is another offender, as the more wounds you got, the more it matters, but the higher your T the less it matters. (to to T6 where above that it matters not how high)

Another example is stealth and shrouded, having both is worth more then the sum of their parts.

Skyfire? worth 20 if you HAVE interceptor, or if like tau can choose to not have it, but if you DON'T have interceptor, its not worth even half, heck, its probably a free ability as it gimps you against any non-flyer.


For most USRs, a generic cost works, some just requires special attention.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





United States

Ovion and peregrine both have excellent points. The rules should have a decent base to work from. However, as many people have said, these things aren't so black and white. Sure, fleshbane on a ccw is awesome, but if the model is initiative 1 with WS2, it's not exactly a huge deal, as compared to a daemon prince having the same Rule on his ccw.

There's always a middle ground, you just have to adjust as you see fit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/30 03:22:27


 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






The question is, does GW have some spreadsheet or set of formulas hidden in a safe somewhere they use to build new units? Given the weirdnesses in pricing, where the same upgrade to similar vehicles costs different amounts in different books, I strongly suspect they just wing it.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

Novice Ginevra stories: Bolter B-Word Privileges (Sisters of Battle), Ollanius Pius Requiem (Sisters & Guard), Able Baker (Inquisition), The Beginning & Dancing with the Astartes (Marines)
A sequel: Army of Minerva - A Sister Ginevra Story
And you should read Lynta on why there is no canon in 40K

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived





A vacuum where wargaming is impossible :C

 SisterSydney wrote:
The question is, does GW have some spreadsheet or set of formulas hidden in a safe somewhere they use to build new units? Given the weirdnesses in pricing, where the same upgrade to similar vehicles costs different amounts in different books, I strongly suspect they just wing it.

Considering that spreadsheet formulae = work, GW would probably never do it :/

 
   
Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






Yeah.
There's a formula - there has to be, and I think what I have above is reasonably similar, espially for 'standard' stats and gear, as it matches almost everything I've put it to.

But then, it also seems that each codex matches its own internal pointing formula to a degree... or maybe it's just cross-edition and made-in-one-for-the-next-edition strangeness.

Once every codex is in 6th ed, I'll go through again and see what there is to see.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/30 14:54:37


   
Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






Hm, looking at it, the simple gain of FnP has been ranged from 10-15pts for T4 models. (15 Tau Battlesuit)
35pts for a T6 model. (Riptide)

That's a +20 boost for that, to the +2T, if we assume that is the only variable here.

So if we assume it's +15pts for a T4 model, and +10 for a T3, then probably +5 for a T2.
Meaning 5pts for under T4, 10pts for over.

This would likely make it:
Feel No Pain (2+): T1-2 +25pts, T3 +40pts, T4 +45pts, T5 +55pts, T6 +65pts T7+ +75pts
Feel No Pain (3+): T1-2 +20pts, T3 +30pts, T4 +35pts, T5 +45pts, T6 +55pts T7+ +65pts
Feel No Pain (4+): T1-2 +15pts, T3 +20pts, T4 +25pts, T5 +35pts, T6 +45pts T7+ +55pts
Feel No Pain (5+): T1-2 +5pts, T3 +10pts, T4 +15pts, T5 +25pts, T6 +35pts T7+ +45pts
Feel No Pain (6+): T1-2 +3pts, T3 +5pts, T4 +8pts, T5 +13pts, T6 +18pts T7+ +23pts

Does this seem more appropriate?

   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Wow that looks complex. And of course that's not considering the offensive capability of the model in question....

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

Novice Ginevra stories: Bolter B-Word Privileges (Sisters of Battle), Ollanius Pius Requiem (Sisters & Guard), Able Baker (Inquisition), The Beginning & Dancing with the Astartes (Marines)
A sequel: Army of Minerva - A Sister Ginevra Story
And you should read Lynta on why there is no canon in 40K

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

 
   
Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






The offensive capability should be covered by its other costs though really.

But there is some scaling for FnP based on more than just its internal value...

   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Oh, definitely. No one ever said this WASN'T complex.

Also, off topic, I just downloaded your FOC chart w/ fortifications & inquisition -- very cool.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

Novice Ginevra stories: Bolter B-Word Privileges (Sisters of Battle), Ollanius Pius Requiem (Sisters & Guard), Able Baker (Inquisition), The Beginning & Dancing with the Astartes (Marines)
A sequel: Army of Minerva - A Sister Ginevra Story
And you should read Lynta on why there is no canon in 40K

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

 
   
Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






Yeah.
That's the official FoC now, just nicely represented by a pretty picture.

And I hear tell that there might be yet more changes to it coming soon.

   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 Ovion wrote:
Yeah.
That's the official FoC now, just nicely represented by a pretty picture.

And I hear tell that there might be yet more changes to it coming soon.

Yeah, you will have to include a superheavy slot (damn escalation mutter mutter).

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Mmmmm.... Baneblade.... Need to write up some Sororitas super heavies soon.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

Novice Ginevra stories: Bolter B-Word Privileges (Sisters of Battle), Ollanius Pius Requiem (Sisters & Guard), Able Baker (Inquisition), The Beginning & Dancing with the Astartes (Marines)
A sequel: Army of Minerva - A Sister Ginevra Story
And you should read Lynta on why there is no canon in 40K

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight







ive been working on a supplement / Fandex for my tanith that has combined at least 2-3 other fan codeices from around the web. This guide will come in use!!

Thank you.


Just to continue discussion, how do people feel about adding in new Special characters to supplements / fandexes? I'm usually hesitant to do so but this guide might give me a little more courage to try out one or two of my own.

   
Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






Special Characters are good times.

People are welcome to post their stuff here too.

I'm surprised that no one has already tbh.
I made a thread for people to review my units and the single reply I got was someone else wanting a review....

   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight







We just dont want to steal your thunder but if you insist

I'll go digging for my SC i made up for my Vet squad IG. See if you think i costed him right.

Been working on a Ibram Gaunt for 6th ed too. Trying to balance it between the 3.5 codex and the lord commissar stats from 5 ed.


edit; Found it!


Senior Lt Jonus Remaus ( Points 60)
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W2 I3 A3 LD9 SV4+
Unit Type: Infantry (Veteran Squad upgrade to sergeant)
Wargear: Liberus (Power sword), Lasgun Carbine, Las pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Grav Chute
Special Rules: Iron discipline, From the skies!
From The skies: Any Vet squad that Remaus is bought for gains the ability to deep strike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/04 01:01:37


   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived





A vacuum where wargaming is impossible :C

 Ovion wrote:

People are welcome to post their stuff here too.

If you insist

This SC is for the CSM codex:

Sedecim, the Soul Hunter

WS: 9
BS: 5
Str: 6
T: 6
W: 4
I: 7
A: 5
Ld: 8
Sv: 3+

Unit Type: (Flying/Jump) Monstrous Creature (Character)

Wargear: Daemon of Tzeentch, Wings, Power Armour, The Black Mace

Special Rules: Daemon, Fearless, VotLW,
Soul Hunter (Whenever this model wins a challenge or destroys a unit/vehicle, roll a D2:
1: Gain +1 wound (up to a maximum of 10)
2: Cause the nearest unengaged non-vehicle unit within 12" to move into base-to-base contact with Sedecim (they may not participate in the assault in this turn))


Costing:
Spoiler:

+Daemon Prince [145 pts]
+Daemon of Tzeentch, Wings, PA [75 pts]
+1 T [10 pts]
+Soul Hunter [50 pts]
+The Black Mace [45 pts]
- 1Ld, -1 I [-15 pts]

Total: [310 pts]


Ofc, I'll need some opinions about the homebrew rule...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/04 08:25:12


 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Interesting, but why would "soul hunter" have any effect on vehicles, which have no souls? Fluff would be helpful!

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

Novice Ginevra stories: Bolter B-Word Privileges (Sisters of Battle), Ollanius Pius Requiem (Sisters & Guard), Able Baker (Inquisition), The Beginning & Dancing with the Astartes (Marines)
A sequel: Army of Minerva - A Sister Ginevra Story
And you should read Lynta on why there is no canon in 40K

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived





A vacuum where wargaming is impossible :C

 SisterSydney wrote:
Interesting, but why would "soul hunter" have any effect on vehicles, which have no souls? Fluff would be helpful!

Still writing the guy's fluff, but essentially he eats souls to gain power, rather than giving them over to his god. And the reason it affects vehicles is because the usually contain a living crew.

Long story short, though, he sticks around with a nurgle warband because this pissed off Tzeentch, and he doesn't want to die.

 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Ah, ok, crews. Also cool fluff.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

Novice Ginevra stories: Bolter B-Word Privileges (Sisters of Battle), Ollanius Pius Requiem (Sisters & Guard), Able Baker (Inquisition), The Beginning & Dancing with the Astartes (Marines)
A sequel: Army of Minerva - A Sister Ginevra Story
And you should read Lynta on why there is no canon in 40K

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

 
   
 
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