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I’m trying to prep for several upcoming ~1750 point tournaments and looking to finalize my list so I can finish the models that I need, but I’m struggling to settle on a list. For reference, most (if not all) of the tournaments are allowing Forge World units (please keep discussions about the validity of this outside of the thread). As a White Scars player, I feel the core of the list is pretty settled – 1x tank Chapter Master and 2-3x SM biker squads with 2x Grav-gun each. From there, however, I’m struggling to decide which allies and support units fill out the list best for a tournament setting, especially one heavy with Eldar and Tau (which seems to be the tournament norm for now). Even after taking some of the “nice-to-haves” I end up stalling out around 1100-1300 points.

I don’t really like the idea of bringing 2x Storm Talon or a Storm Raven. While they provide excellent anti-flier support that the bike list is sorely lacking naturally, in every game I’ve played and seen they generally fail to earn their points back if the opponent lacks fliers of their own. They reduce our potent alpha-strike, and add a reliance on reserve rolls we don't already have. Further, they provide excellent targets for the opponent’s anti-flier weapons, which normally lack an efficient target in the bike list. Considering the dominant lists run few, if any fliers, I think they’re out. Admittedly this makes the list weaker against Hell Talons (which aren’t as popular these days anyways), but you can’t fit every solution into your list at 1750. I think fliers are an okay filler, but only if you're bringing multiple.

Similarly, I’ve been avoiding anything with an AV value unless there is a compelling reason to take one (such as my list having a serious hole I’m unable to cover otherwise). This effectively negates the advantage of any AP 1, Melta, Lance, Tank Hunter, etc weaponry my opponent is bringing and, if I look at taking 2+/3+ T5 models, increases my target saturation. I have considered Vindicators for their natural bike synergy, but I feel TFC handle that role well enough. No other vehicles really seem enticing.

So I've been experimenting with adding a "deathstar", specifically a Devastator Centurion. I expect many players will balk at the addition of a Centurion deathstar, especially in a bike list that already has plenty of graviton. However, in my admittedly early testing, these units have performed well. The first reason for taking anything else but more bikes is that I often feel over-saturated on bikes beyond 15-20 models. Between their point reduction, increased footprint (4 bikes + AB previously versus 5 bikes now) and desire to refuse a flank/cram behind LoS blocking terrain, I struggle to find positions that are both good defensively for all of my bikes that also allow them to participate. I like to park every squad 18” away from the enemy and quickly run out of space.

Critically, I noticed that I was already strongly considering several ICs (Coteaz, Rune Priests, Inquisitors, Tau Commanders) that loved being grouped together. However, they needed a Space Marine unit to do it in (since the Inquisitors don’t like the Tau) and anything on bikes wouldn’t do between the speed and the weakness to Focus Fire (targeting the ICs). Further, this unit would have some combination of 4++, Rune Weapons, TL, ignores cover, and IBEY all wrapped up in one neat package. This led me to finding a unit that can bully the other deathstars, since most of the dominant deathstars rely on psychic powers, AP2/ignores cover, deepstriking and/or 2+ cover saves, which this unit threatens well.

But why Centurions? Admittedly, I’ve considered two alternatives. The Bike Command Squad(BCS) was the first, as they have a similar profile. For ~40 points less, they bring 12 grav shots instead of 15 and a similar amount of wounds, faster move and a built-in cover save. However, they lose 6” of range, have rules controversy (i.e. they need both the apoth and 4x grav to be comparable and some say that is not allowed), lose grav-amps, lose free hurricane bolter shots, lose 2+ save and more importantly they outpace/don’t protect the ics. I’ve also considered Legion of the Damned as an even cheaper alternative, but their rule preventing ICs from joining means I’d have to find a unit to act as ablative wounds for the Inquisitors (Henchmen, I’m looking at you). Basically, what I’m looking for is a Relentless/SnP squad that benefits from having my Independent Characters tag along. Please bring up any such opportunities that I am missing.

What I like in particular is the flexibility/"toolbox" feel of such a list. I don't rely on the deathstar, and can easily shuffle the ICs around to different units that are stronger in a particular matchup (TFC, Broadsides, etc) rather than being stuck with only one trick. Obviously, I've not settled on running Tau allies + collection of ICs + Dev Cents. But I'm not finding anything else that both meshes with the bikes as well and is as points efficient. Here is a thread with sample army lists, for those having trouble visualizing: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/567623.page#6329862

Feel free to contribute all constructive criticism. I'm looking to make Codex Space Marines compete with the common tier 1 armies.

Given your stated preferences, centurions are the way to go. I run a group of three in my White Scars lists and have never been disappointed by them (except for the very first game I tried using them when they took a casualty and ran off the board on the top of turn 1). The Omniscope is a must buy with 50% of your games being turn 1 night fight. I also consider the missile launchers a must purchase upgrade. It adds a ton of flexibility into your list and synergizes with grav cannons better when shooting at vehicles, monstrous creatures, and heavy infantry.

My biggest concerns is I won't be able to get a lot of games in with them - only about 1/week. I have a lot more experience with the bike list pre-6th SM.

What do you run with them? Any ICs? Do you feel their mobility is sufficient? I feel like with bikes corralling the enemy, Scout and Hit & Run should be workable. How many models do you run?

Any other experience with support/allies? I've tried aircav, landspeeders, Blood Angels among others and haven't really found any satisfactory.

My core list is:
Chapter Master on Bike, Artificer Armor, Shield Eternal, Thunder Hammer
Level 2 Librarian on Bike
7 bikes with 2x plasma, combiplasma
8 bikes with 2x grav, combi-grav
3 centurions with missiles, gravcannons, omniscope
TFC
3 attack bikes with multimeltas

That comes out to about ~1230 points. From there, I scale on points level. I actually like including 1-2 minimum sized tactical squads with meltaguns in Razorbacks to maintain a ratio of 1 scoring unit per 500 points. The Razorback is particularly useful in nightfight as it can illuminate a target for the TFC or melta bikes to strip shrouded/stealth and help the TFC specifically ignore the 36" targeting restriction. It also gives you some long range fire support that doesn't have to be within 24" of the enemy to be effective. My favorite loadout is still las/plas for versatility since the upgrade points are all the same. I've also gotten good mileage out of a pair of Talons and a 4 missile devastator squad to add to the ranged threat. Bikes have a large footprint. Anything that can mass fires from across the table to support them is useful.

I run my centurions specifically as a bare group of three. Their mobility is limited if you have to deploy first and your opponent counter deploys away from them. This is why I upgrade them with Omniscope and Missiles. The omniscope lets them ignore nightfighting and the missiles let them effect the game while moving into optimal range for a turn or two. Overall the mobility is sufficient for the course of a game, especially since you and your opponent will generally end up converging on objectives. I don't like adding ICs. At 290 points, those three centurions already draw alot of fire and I don't think adding an IC really benefits them for the added cost. You already reroll failed wounds after all and the volume of fire is high enough that you reliably get 8-10 wounds without rerolls to hit. I'm considering adding a cheap Inquisitor for the next couple games, but mostly because I can use Prescience to make the TFC more lethal as well.

I haven't found allies to be really useful in my trial runs. They don't add alot that a WS list needs for the points associated with it.

Why not use either min or max size bike squads? Do you feel the libby is more useful than Khan? I've found Khan to be very useful in my matchups against Eldar/Tau due to Scout, but pretty dead otherwise.

I'm really not a big fan of Rhinos/Razorbacks because they give up first blood so easily and decrease target saturation. But partially this is probably a bias just because I'm sick of running them personally (I have Mech Salamanders and Rhino Rush Blood Angels).

I think it's interesting that you mention mass fire from across the table - I think that's exactly what Tau allies are capable of bringing, and I think they do it better than missile devs or speeders.

I thought Grav Amps only rerolled failed vehicle rolls. I'll have to check my dex when I get home.

I've tried the cheap inquisitor to some success. Critically, he (or the Tau Buff Commander, more reliably) can give them Ignores Cover.

I need to max them out. It's mostly a converted/painted constraint at the moment. In a TAC list, I think telepathy on level 2 is better than Khan. I've had no problems with Eldar or Tau so far and the invisibility, hallucination and puppet master are always good.

Like I said earlier, the biggest boon from the razorbacks is with helping your alpha strike ignore turn one night fight. Tau with black sun filters are good here, but they don't help other units. Maybe a predator would solve this? Even a single searchlight helps by stripping cover saves and removing that pesky 36" targeting restriction.

I'm not a big fan of BS 3 and Tau allies with efficient firepower are costly points wise. Missile devs are dirt cheap now at 130 points and no additional tax. I'm not a fan of speeders in a WS list. Attack bikes are a better buy since they benefit from chaper tactics.

I think the big thing here is how important you think ignore cover is for the centurions. I find they do generally enough damage through volume of fire + reroll wounds/armor penetration that makes adding the buff commander a premium, not a must.

What about Eldar Seer/Deer council? I've only gotten games against inexperienced players, so I'm struggling to see if I've either got it handled well or it's their inexperience.

My concern with Telepathy is that there are multiple dead rolls and Psychic Shriek is of limited use against a lot of lists. I've found with biker librarians that oftentimes they want to use Witchfire attacks against whom the bike squad is not planning to assault, which can create problems too.

Do you really find Nightfight to be that big of a deal? Most of the guns are 18"-24", and with the 12" it really hasn't been a big problem for me. The only unit I tend to run that can fire over 36" is the TFC and taking a unit just to bring a Searchlight for it seems overkill.

While the Tau may eat up a lot of points between the buff Commander and Missilesides that I'm considering bringing, they are very points efficient for the cost. I'd rather have Kroot + Missilesides than Scouts + Missile devs any day. Missilesides are admittedly 50% more, but TL BS 3 beats BS 4 (especially against fliers), and bring 12 S7 shots versus 4 S8, and that's not even counting SMS.

I agree it's not a must, but it does open up their potential targets quite nicely (previous, units with good cover saves but poor armor saves made for great screens). I'm still trying to test and look at different ideas, of course.

The Seer Council is a tough matchup in general, but much more manageable if the DEldar player fails to get fortune. Depending on whether or not fortune is present, you can try to go for volume of fire to drown them in wounds or you can simply ignore and try to kill of his troops. You just need to be leery of the Seer Council splitting into 4 units at the end to contest 4 different objectives. It can be a super resilient unit, but the low LD of warlocks means they fail with some regularity. I recommend being patient and identyfing the right models to snipe out via barrage and sniper rifles (the warlocks with Jinx/Protect, the Baron (to remove hit & run and allow tarpitting), the farseer with fortune, etc).

Nightfight usually proves a big deal because of the stealth rule. A good opponent who knows he's going second can take advantage of cover by deploying in it or creating cover via an intervening unit. Even with first turn, the size of the bike footprint means you'll rarely have everything inside 12" to ignore the night fighting bonus. Turning cover from a 3+/4+ save to a 5+ save is huge. Barrage weapons go from 5+/6+ cover to no save. I think of the odd searchlight as a force multiplier and I generally miss having it when I don't run the vehicles. It also gives you options when going second to deploy conservatively, move the chapter master, and then drop the barrage anywhere on the table without incurring the shrouded penalty for night fight.

Well, I'd never use scouts to be honest. They just don't do enough damage and are too vulnerable (even for the cheap costs). Plus, the big bonus of devastators is there is no troop tax. You already paid it with bikes. So the question is really: are Kroots worth paying as a tax do get missilesides and a buffmander? I'd have to play a few games to be honest. Three missile sides are clearly better than 4 devastators, but the true opportunity cost is that the proposed Tau detachment is worth somewhere between 500 and 600 points. That buys me the four devastators and two storm talons with about 100-200 points to spare. So is the Buffmander + Kroot + Missilesides worth 2 Talons + Devastators + one other unit (maybe that Inquisitor)? I generally lean towards no because, like I said, in my experience so far the centurions are lethal enough without needing more help. Playtest it and see how it works for you though.

Seer council can be countered by bringing a tau commander. No coversaves and AP2 gravguns = sad panda council. Bikes are mobile enough to not allow the baron to tank everything on his invulnerable.

Another options is the rune priest, but the tau commander is overall much better.

From my experience, the centurions are too slow and too short-ranged. I would bring a bit more bikes, 3 squads is very light.

With superheavies now joining the party, drop pods are looking interesting as support. Too bad there is nothing really great to stuff inside them, would love some in-codex wolfguards.

@ Illumini: I find the range issue is solved by the krak missiles. They also have an effective 30" range with their grav cannons.

You are paying an insane amount of pts for those krak missiles when the enemy is not within 30".

I used them several times, even giving them scout by joining in Khan (which I in retrospect believe doesn´t actually work), and they were just too slow, too vulnerable and too easy to avoid. The good armies at the moment, eldar, tau and deamons don´t really have to give you any good targets if they don´t want to. IMO, the bikers just do grav much better, and they are scoring as well.

PanzerLeader wrote:The Seer Council is a tough matchup in general, but much more manageable if the DEldar player fails to get fortune. Depending on whether or not fortune is present, you can try to go for volume of fire to drown them in wounds or you can simply ignore and try to kill of his troops. You just need to be leery of the Seer Council splitting into 4 units at the end to contest 4 different objectives. It can be a super resilient unit, but the low LD of warlocks means they fail with some regularity. I recommend being patient and identyfing the right models to snipe out via barrage and sniper rifles (the warlocks with Jinx/Protect, the Baron (to remove hit & run and allow tarpitting), the farseer with fortune, etc).

Nightfight usually proves a big deal because of the stealth rule. A good opponent who knows he's going second can take advantage of cover by deploying in it or creating cover via an intervening unit. Even with first turn, the size of the bike footprint means you'll rarely have everything inside 12" to ignore the night fighting bonus. Turning cover from a 3+/4+ save to a 5+ save is huge. Barrage weapons go from 5+/6+ cover to no save. I think of the odd searchlight as a force multiplier and I generally miss having it when I don't run the vehicles. It also gives you options when going second to deploy conservatively, move the chapter master, and then drop the barrage anywhere on the table without incurring the shrouded penalty for night fight.

Well, I'd never use scouts to be honest. They just don't do enough damage and are too vulnerable (even for the cheap costs). Plus, the big bonus of devastators is there is no troop tax. You already paid it with bikes. So the question is really: are Kroots worth paying as a tax do get missilesides and a buffmander? I'd have to play a few games to be honest. Three missile sides are clearly better than 4 devastators, but the true opportunity cost is that the proposed Tau detachment is worth somewhere between 500 and 600 points. That buys me the four devastators and two storm talons with about 100-200 points to spare. So is the Buffmander + Kroot + Missilesides worth 2 Talons + Devastators + one other unit (maybe that Inquisitor)? I generally lean towards no because, like I said, in my experience so far the centurions are lethal enough without needing more help. Playtest it and see how it works for you though.

Right, I understand the tactics on how to beat a Seer council, but my concern is I haven't played against an experienced player running the Seer Council. In that kind of match-up (which I expect) how manageable is it for us? The Tau buff Commander and SW Rune Priest both make that matchup significantly easier, but are they worth their opportunity costs?

I guess I've never run the Searchlight since they've actually been useful, so I don't miss it. I'll playtest it and see how it feels. The Auspex provides a more consistent use though, which is something I'm curious why more players don't use. The TFCs have an Ignores Cover shot though, so the only Barrage I see benefiting greatly is the OS of the Chapter Master.

I agree on Scouts, I just made that comparison because a lot of WS players like to use them for their Infantry objective-claiming squad. You can see my suggested lists by following the link in the OP. The Tau Detachment clocks in at just under 400 points, so the comparison is more Buffmander + Kroot + Missilesides vs 2 Talons + Devastators. Against many lists, I expect adding the Buffmander to Dev Cents to be overkill. However, adding him allows the Dev Cents to bully other deathstars, which without Ignores Cover they would really struggle to do. Against those lists were the Dev Cents don't need the extra power, however, I can push the Buffmander into the Broadsides, allowing them much more damage output. Basically, I'm liking the idea because he has several potential squads to buff, meaning I can pick the best squad for that particular opponent.

Illumini wrote:Seer council can be countered by bringing a tau commander. No coversaves and AP2 gravguns = sad panda council. Bikes are mobile enough to not allow the baron to tank everything on his invulnerable.

Another options is the rune priest, but the tau commander is overall much better.

From my experience, the centurions are too slow and too short-ranged. I would bring a bit more bikes, 3 squads is very light.

With superheavies now joining the party, drop pods are looking interesting as support. Too bad there is nothing really great to stuff inside them, would love some in-codex wolfguards.

I've actually been planning on bringing a Tau Commander or a Rune Priest (see the link in the OP for the army list).

I'd love to run Drop Pods, but I couldn't find anything that I felt was worth running without significant investment.

Here's a WIP List:
Space Marines Primary Detachment:
HQ
Chapter Master (Artificer Armor, Bike, Power Fist, The Shield Eternal)
Librarian (Bike, ML2)

Troops
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)

Heavy Support
Centurion Devastator Squad (3x Grav-cannon and grav-amp, 3x Chest ML, Omniscope)
Thunderfire Cannon

Tau Allied Detachment:
HQ
Commander (Command and Control Node, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Vectored Retro-thrusters)

Troops
Kroot Carnivore Squad (10 Kroot)

Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside Team (3x Twin-linked high-yield missile pod, 3x EWO, 2x Missile Drones) [Could get 4x more Missile Drones here]

Inquistorial Detachment
HQ
Inquisitor Coteaz
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (3x Servo Skulls, Psyker)

1748/1750

Illumini wrote:You are paying an insane amount of pts for those krak missiles when the enemy is not within 30".

I used them several times, even giving them scout by joining in Khan (which I in retrospect believe doesn´t actually work), and they were just too slow, too vulnerable and too easy to avoid. The good armies at the moment, eldar, tau and deamons don´t really have to give you any good targets if they don´t want to. IMO, the bikers just do grav much better, and they are scoring as well.

It works if Khan is on a bike. I've played in 14 tournament games (including 11 in GTs, of which my record is now 9-1-1) with my current centurion setup and I've found the versatility offered by the missiles to be well worth the 30 points for the squad. The missiles also synergize better when shooting the grav cannons at vehicles, monstrous creatures and MEQ. Since centurions can't overwatch, I never want them anywhere within 18" of the enemy's main assault threat anyway. I've found that I can easily mitigate my opponent's ability to avoid them through objective placement and deployment.

Ricter wrote:Right, I understand the tactics on how to beat a Seer council, but my concern is I haven't played against an experienced player running the Seer Council. In that kind of match-up (which I expect) how manageable is it for us? The Tau buff Commander and SW Rune Priest both make that matchup significantly easier, but are they worth their opportunity costs?

I guess I've never run the Searchlight since they've actually been useful, so I don't miss it. I'll playtest it and see how it feels. The Auspex provides a more consistent use though, which is something I'm curious why more players don't use. The TFCs have an Ignores Cover shot though, so the only Barrage I see benefiting greatly is the OS of the Chapter Master.

I agree on Scouts, I just made that comparison because a lot of WS players like to use them for their Infantry objective-claiming squad. You can see my suggested lists by following the link in the OP. The Tau Detachment clocks in at just under 400 points, so the comparison is more Buffmander + Kroot + Missilesides vs 2 Talons + Devastators. Against many lists, I expect adding the Buffmander to Dev Cents to be overkill. However, adding him allows the Dev Cents to bully other deathstars, which without Ignores Cover they would really struggle to do. Against those lists were the Dev Cents don't need the extra power, however, I can push the Buffmander into the Broadsides, allowing them much more damage output. Basically, I'm liking the idea because he has several potential squads to buff, meaning I can pick the best squad for that particular opponent.

I've actually been planning on bringing a Tau Commander or a Rune Priest (see the link in the OP for the army list).

I'd love to run Drop Pods, but I couldn't find anything that I felt was worth running without significant investment.

Here's a WIP List:
Space Marines Primary Detachment:
HQ
Chapter Master (Artificer Armor, Bike, Power Fist, The Shield Eternal)
Librarian (Bike, ML2)

Troops
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)

Heavy Support
Centurion Devastator Squad (3x Grav-cannon and grav-amp, 3x Chest ML, Omniscope)
Thunderfire Cannon

Tau Allied Detachment:
HQ
Commander (Command and Control Node, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Vectored Retro-thrusters)

Troops
Kroot Carnivore Squad (10 Kroot)

Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside Team (3x Twin-linked high-yield missile pod, 3x EWO, 2x Missile Drones) [Could get 4x more Missile Drones here]

Inquistorial Detachment
HQ
Inquisitor Coteaz
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (3x Servo Skulls, Psyker)

1748/1750

I think you'll find the Seer Council matchup manageable even in the hands of an experienced player. Its a solid list, but bikes have the inherent mobility to keep up with them. Playing against an experienced Seer Council player requires alot of nuance. You need to setup and time your attack on the council correctly. On the turn you want to neuter them, you need to mass everything on them. If your not in a position to do that, you need to ignore them and strip away supporting units instead. It sounds easy, but I see players consistently throw away games by plinking a couple of units worth of firepower off the super resilient council, not doing any real damage and then trying to refocus on supporting units instead without having enough assets yet. Based on mission and terrain, a good White Scars list has the mobility to keep a council screened off from doing real damage in the assault phase and contained.

The Auspex is an ok piece of kit. The 12" range is a little meh but I'm usually strapped to find 5 points to include it somewhere.

I like your Tau detachment and the flexibility with the Buffmander. I might have to try out something similiar in the near future. What do you expect Coteaz to add other than seize protection?

 Illumini wrote:
You are paying an insane amount of pts for those krak missiles when the enemy is not within 30".

I used them several times, even giving them scout by joining in Khan (which I in retrospect believe doesn´t actually work), and they were just too slow, too vulnerable and too easy to avoid. The good armies at the moment, eldar, tau and deamons don´t really have to give you any good targets if they don´t want to. IMO, the bikers just do grav much better, and they are scoring as well.

Khan has Scout (if Warlord, of course), and Scout only requires one model in the squad to have the ability in order to make a Scout redeployment. So that works.

What support did you give them? I generally find that by playing a Bike army that the field is very condensed, as I can often trap opponents in smaller areas or force them to move in directions I want. If you would cut the Dev Cents, what would you run instead?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:

I think you'll find the Seer Council matchup manageable even in the hands of an experienced player. Its a solid list, but bikes have the inherent mobility to keep up with them. Playing against an experienced Seer Council player requires alot of nuance. You need to setup and time your attack on the council correctly. On the turn you want to neuter them, you need to mass everything on them. If your not in a position to do that, you need to ignore them and strip away supporting units instead. It sounds easy, but I see players consistently throw away games by plinking a couple of units worth of firepower off the super resilient council, not doing any real damage and then trying to refocus on supporting units instead without having enough assets yet. Based on mission and terrain, a good White Scars list has the mobility to keep a council screened off from doing real damage in the assault phase and contained.

The Auspex is an ok piece of kit. The 12" range is a little meh but I'm usually strapped to find 5 points to include it somewhere.

I like your Tau detachment and the flexibility with the Buffmander. I might have to try out something similiar in the near future. What do you expect Coteaz to add other than seize protection?

Hmmm... alright.

The Auspex of course has its limits, but it trades an otherwise near-useless shooting attack for a minor force multiplier. I'm testing it now, but I similarly struggle to find the 5 points for it.

Coteaz is there because he's ML 2 Divination (giving me two shots at Ignores Cover or 4++, whichever I'm trying for), improve my seize (as against Tau/Eldar I'll often want to go first), cheap scoring units (which we otherwise lack) and IBEY. IBEY has so far been really nice to prevent any kind of flyer, deepstriker or FMC from coming in close to the Cent Devs without getting shot first. Basically, he's there to prevent/improve alpha strikes for the Cent Devs.

but can't the Buffmander Give interceptor through the Early overide thing? 24" is a pretty big "No deep strike here" zone.

He can´t give interceptor, he only gets it himself

._. oh. darn. same for the Presicion shot one?

Yep

Crud. I knew sniping grav cannons seemed way to good to be true.

Yeah, the buffmander is insanely powerful already, if he had dolled out interceptor and precision shots as well, it might have been a bit over the top.

He can give them hit-and-run, re-rolls to hit, ignore cover, tanking, S10 AP1 attack in close combat and some other minor bonuses, so I would certainly bring him for a devstar

Yeah, that's my plan. With the other ICs I don't think I need the smash attack / tanking, so I'll skim some points there.

He'll be there for the H&R, TL and IC, which I think is well worth his price tag, especially since he'll have at least two great units to buff.

I got to play a few games with the updated list against Screamerstar. I'm making a full report, but I really like how the list is balanced so far.

Chapter Master did okay, missing out on FnP is definitely noticeable. Army-wide invulnerable save means that his Thunder Hammer and Orbital Bombardment aren't nearly as useful, but he still managed to cause 150+ pts of damage with it every time.

The Librarian flopped, every game. First game he died T1 due to Daemonic Possession (and giving away first blood that I otherwise would have gotten). Second game he cast Dominate, only for them to make every leadership check, and Psychic Shriek, only to fail or be denied. Every turn. Literally. Not impressed. I like Blessings much, much better.

Tau Commander was fantastic. The ability to hop between the Broadsides/Centurions is very nice. PEN feels really limited though, since it's basically only useful for Monster/Tank Hunters, which the Centurions don't really need. So it's basically only useful for when the Commander is with the Broadsides, and that's only when they're shooting MC/Vehicles (which so far, has been 1 turn per game).

Bikes were solid, of course. I didn't miss the extra Grav-guns and it was nice to have a back-up for tank-hunting in case the Broadsides didn't bring it down. Kroot basically infiltrated on to an objective and stayed there the whole game. They really don't have a good target to pick on in the Screamerstar list. I really want to get them sniper rounds, as I often find them staying at the 20-30" range and not moving.

Centurions were very solid. Absorbed a surprising amount of damage and volume of fire is just impressive. Even when Grimoire'd, they threaten the Screamstar with reliable ID wounds and ~4 Grav-cannon wounds on average. The potential precision ID wounds really seem to get the Daemon player's attention.

Broadsides were okay. They put out a high volume of shots, but really had trouble wrecking anything. 22-24 S7 shots just doesn't do much to AV 13, even with TH. Between their saves I need 2 rounds to glance it to death and that's just not impressive. Interceptor was beautiful though. Plowing DS'ing units before they get to attack was a huge advantage.

The Thunderfire cannon... has been a disappointment. I'm not quite sure what the problem is, since pre-6th ed codex I was using 2 of these quite happily, and they've only been buffed since then. But I just can't get them to pull their weight any more. More and more often my opponents are spreading out heavily, and 2-3 S6 hits are not worth 100 points.

The Screamerstar is even worse than I thought. Insane amount of poor AP shots make my 2+ armor save not nearly as useful, and I can't assault it to avoid taking damage as nearly everything has AP2 attacks. But that's why I asked to play against this list - it's my worst match-up, I think.

interesting to hear your feedback on the TFC. I've been considering adding one to my salamanders list in place of a plasma cannon dev squad, but it just doesn't feel like a good trade. I wonder if it's the fact that it was changed to barrage in 6th... seems much easier to miss now vs. rolling scatter for each shot separately.

Sounds like bad luck on the librarian. Dominate is a poor power IMO and you missed out on the best two powers. He should have been helpful boosting against Tzeentch shooting (every unit in 6" denies on a 5+, chapter master on a 4+ if he's close enough to benefit). Demons are also a bad matchup for shriek because he has lots of ML3 to try and deny on a 4+ and has invulnerables everywhere to mitigate damage.

varl wrote:interesting to hear your feedback on the TFC. I've been considering adding one to my salamanders list in place of a plasma cannon dev squad, but it just doesn't feel like a good trade. I wonder if it's the fact that it was changed to barrage in 6th... seems much easier to miss now vs. rolling scatter for each shot separately.

You don't have to fire indirectly. But it seems that opponents are more willing to spread out than they used to be.

PanzerLeader wrote:Sounds like bad luck on the librarian. Dominate is a poor power IMO and you missed out on the best two powers. He should have been helpful boosting against Tzeentch shooting (every unit in 6" denies on a 5+, chapter master on a 4+ if he's close enough to benefit). Demons are also a bad matchup for shriek because he has lots of ML3 to try and deny on a 4+ and has invulnerables everywhere to mitigate damage.

I thought Dominate would be interesting enough against the Screamerstar because even though it got denied on a 4+, it had a pretty good chance (~40%) of simply denying the entire squad from participating in a single phase. Considering that the Screamerstar was basically his entirely list, I had decent odds of basically preventing my opponent from playing in a phase. Yeah, I hadn't expected much out of Shriek. But by the time I got to use it, Dominate had already failed to do anything over 2 rounds and I was just hoping to get anything from him. He did help out on the DtW, at least.

What powers would you go for against Daemons? Hallucination only does something useful on a 3-4, Mental Fortitude isn't useful, he lacks AP 2/3 shooting to make Invisibility useful, and Terrify runs into the same problem as Dominate. Is there something I'm missing?

Ricter wrote:

varl wrote:interesting to hear your feedback on the TFC. I've been considering adding one to my salamanders list in place of a plasma cannon dev squad, but it just doesn't feel like a good trade. I wonder if it's the fact that it was changed to barrage in 6th... seems much easier to miss now vs. rolling scatter for each shot separately.

You don't have to fire indirectly. But it seems that opponents are more willing to spread out than they used to be.

PanzerLeader wrote:Sounds like bad luck on the librarian. Dominate is a poor power IMO and you missed out on the best two powers. He should have been helpful boosting against Tzeentch shooting (every unit in 6" denies on a 5+, chapter master on a 4+ if he's close enough to benefit). Demons are also a bad matchup for shriek because he has lots of ML3 to try and deny on a 4+ and has invulnerables everywhere to mitigate damage.

I thought Dominate would be interesting enough against the Screamerstar because even though it got denied on a 4+, it had a pretty good chance (~40%) of simply denying the entire squad from participating in a single phase. Considering that the Screamerstar was basically his entirely list, I had decent odds of basically preventing my opponent from playing in a phase. Yeah, I hadn't expected much out of Shriek. But by the time I got to use it, Dominate had already failed to do anything over 2 rounds and I was just hoping to get anything from him. He did help out on the DtW, at least.

What powers would you go for against Daemons? Hallucination only does something useful on a 3-4, Mental Fortitude isn't useful, he lacks AP 2/3 shooting to make Invisibility useful, and Terrify runs into the same problem as Dominate. Is there something I'm missing?

Invisibility is still good because it gives you 2+ cover against all his shooting when you move. It also makes all those screamers WS1 when fighting you, which makes charging them more feasible. They go to 1 attack each when hitting at AP2 and now they'll need 5's to hit. Even when maxed out (9 screamers + 4 heralds), that reduces damage from about 3.75 wounds/turn to just over 2 wounds/turn. 2 wounds a turn is very tankable for the chaptermaster and then you can hit and run out on your turn to try and isolate the grimoire herald in a bad position. Puppet Master is also good since you can grab a herald or fateweaver and use flickering fire for mass wounds.

PanzerLeader wrote:

Invisibility is still good because it gives you 2+ cover against all his shooting when you move. It also makes all those screamers WS1 when fighting you, which makes charging them more feasible. They go to 1 attack each when hitting at AP2 and now they'll need 5's to hit. Even when maxed out (9 screamers + 4 heralds), that reduces damage from about 3.75 wounds/turn to just over 2 wounds/turn. 2 wounds a turn is very tankable for the chaptermaster and then you can hit and run out on your turn to try and isolate the grimoire herald in a bad position. Puppet Master is also good since you can grab a herald or fateweaver and use flickering fire for mass wounds.

Sure, but they don't ignore my 2+ armor save when shooting. And in assault, swapping them from 4+ to 5+ isn't that big of a deal (compared to the damage output improvement I'd get from say, prescience). I definitely see how invisibility can be useful in general, but against Screamerstar I don't see it as much.

If you Puppet Master, can you target the unit he is in? Otherwise it would have been worthless to me since they weren't in LoS of enemy squads.

Ricter wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

Invisibility is still good because it gives you 2+ cover against all his shooting when you move. It also makes all those screamers WS1 when fighting you, which makes charging them more feasible. They go to 1 attack each when hitting at AP2 and now they'll need 5's to hit. Even when maxed out (9 screamers + 4 heralds), that reduces damage from about 3.75 wounds/turn to just over 2 wounds/turn. 2 wounds a turn is very tankable for the chaptermaster and then you can hit and run out on your turn to try and isolate the grimoire herald in a bad position. Puppet Master is also good since you can grab a herald or fateweaver and use flickering fire for mass wounds.

Sure, but they don't ignore my 2+ armor save when shooting. And in assault, swapping them from 4+ to 5+ isn't that big of a deal (compared to the damage output improvement I'd get from say, prescience). I definitely see how invisibility can be useful in general, but against Screamerstar I don't see it as much.

If you Puppet Master, can you target the unit he is in? Otherwise it would have been worthless to me since they weren't in LoS of enemy squads.

Can't target his own squad. But herald could target fate weaver or another FMC or vice versa. I like invisibility because it lets me turn an entire bike squad into rolling terminators, but I think you nailed it originally when you said telepathy is weak versus screamer star. Try it against a few other match ups. Shriek is particularly good against TFCs and MCs without invulnerable saves in particular.

Ricter wrote:

varl wrote:interesting to hear your feedback on the TFC. I've been considering adding one to my salamanders list in place of a plasma cannon dev squad, but it just doesn't feel like a good trade. I wonder if it's the fact that it was changed to barrage in 6th... seems much easier to miss now vs. rolling scatter for each shot separately.

You don't have to fire indirectly. But it seems that opponents are more willing to spread out than they used to be.

Barrage always fire as barrage, so if your opponent is hiding under roofs, the thunderfire is poor. The only difference between direct and indirect is that direct lets you subtract Bs, while indirect allow you to shoot without LoS.

The TFC is your best bet to take out the herald. Get one S6 shot through his 2+ LoS and 5++ save and he is gone.

 Illumini wrote:

Barrage always fire as barrage, so if your opponent is hiding under roofs, the thunderfire is poor. The only difference between direct and indirect is that direct lets you subtract Bs, while indirect allow you to shoot without LoS.

The TFC is your best bet to take out the herald. Get one S6 shot through his 2+ LoS and 5++ save and he is gone.

Right, but he made a message about accuracy, and I wanted to make sure he knew he could still direct fire to subtract BS.

I know. But its odds still aren't that good. I need 9 hits on average, and that's not including turns where he rolls +1 to invulnerable saves on the Warp Storm or gets a 4+ invulnerable save or has a good cover save, etc. So even in ideal conditions, that's ~3 turns on average.