Judge: NSA phone surveillance program unconstitutional

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**Dreadclaw69**

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/16/justice/nsa-surveillance-court-ruling/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

(CNN) -- The government's once-secret program of collecting domestic telephone communication records of Americans was ruled unconstitutional Monday by a federal court.
Judge Richard Leon said the surveillance program of so-called metadata was an apparent violation of privacy rights, ruling in favor of four plaintiffs.
"I cannot imagine a more 'indiscriminate' and 'arbitrary invasion' than this systematic and high-tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval," said the judge, an appointee of President George W. Bush. "Surely, such a program infringes on 'that degree of privacy' that the Founders enshrined in the Fourth Amendment."
But the judge stayed enforcement of his order barring the government from collecting the phone metadata, pending an appeal by the government. There was no initial indication whether the Obama administration would seek such an appeal.
Leon said the "plaintiffs in this case have also shown a strong likelihood of success on the merits of a Fourth Amendment claim. As such, they too have adequately demonstrated irreparable injury."
The case is Klayman v. Obama (13-cv-881).

**daedalus**

But the judge stayed enforcement of his order barring the government from collecting the phone metadata, pending an appeal by the government. There was no initial indication whether the Obama administration would seek such an appeal.

I... I thought how that worked was that typically judges allowed enforcement of their orders UNTIL such a time as the opposing party appeals, not to stay enforcement on the off chance they happen to get around to appealing.

Otherwise, what do you actually have to do in order to get the order enforced after the fact?

**jamesk1973**

The hell you say.

**Alexzandvar**

The NSA is pretty much a good example of what happens when you create a program with zero restrictions and let it run wild.

I feel bad for Obama in this regard at least, he has to keep things like this in place to keep the establishment conservatives happy, while also pissing off libertarians and social conservatives.

I would say we should shut down the NSA, but in this day and age they are most likely just a necessary evil.

**jamesk1973**

"I would say we should shut down the NSA, but in this day and age they are most likely just a necessary evil. "

That is exactly what they are counting on. They are counting on acceptance to the fact that rights are being trampled.

They are counting on us to do nothing. That way it will be easier for the next reduction in rights to occur.

**Ensis Ferrae**

The thing that I find most appalling in that whole situation, is that the NSA is quite clearly in violation of Executive Order 12223.

For those who are not sure what that is, EO 12223 was an order put in place after Watergate, because during the 1960s, Army Intelligence, the CIA, etc. were all actively placing spies and moles within the various "fringe element" groups (black panthers, the hippy peace movements, etc) and collecting intelligence on US citizens. This is kind of an obvious no bueno situation, so EO 12223 expressly forbids the collection/storage of Intelligence gathered against suspected US citizens. There are of course a few exceptions, but VERY FEW people have the authority to make that exception to the order.

**Alexzandvar**

jamesk1973 wrote:
"I would say we should shut down the NSA, but in this day and age they are most likely just a necessary evil. "

That is exactly what they are counting on. They are counting on acceptance to the fact that rights are being trampled.

They are counting on us to do nothing. That way it will be easier for the next reduction in rights to occur.

The NSA as much as you would like to think are not a bond villain waiting for your to get your guard down so he can kidnap your family.

They are just a another government agency, they abuse there power yes, and should restrictions be placed on them? Yes. Should they be shut down? No.

Also privacy rights are murky business, so I get why you might be afraid of them getting up in those but the NSA is not going to come steal your guns or take away your free speach.

**jamesk1973**

"Also privacy rights are murky business, so I get why you might be afraid of them getting up in those but the NSA is not going to come steal your guns or take away your free speach. "

No, they'll just monitor my activities until their is "reasonable belief" that I possess weapons.

Then when the BATF is done collecting the weapons belonging to those folks who registered their weapons or joined the NRA; then they'll get around to me.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

jamesk1973 wrote:
"Also privacy rights are murky business, so I get why you might be afraid of them getting up in those but the NSA is not going to come steal your guns or take away your free speach. "

No, they'll just monitor my activities until their is "reasonable belief" that I possess weapons.

Then when the BATF is done collecting the weapons belonging to those folks who registered their weapons or joined the NRA; then they'll get around to me.

Could you use the quote feature for future posts, please?

**Ouze**

Alexzandvar wrote:
I get why you might be afraid of them getting up in those but the NSA is not going to come steal your guns or take away your free speach.

Well, first understand that every thread - regardless of how unrelated to the topic - needs to descend into gun rights (or Obamacare) on these fora.

That being said we still need to acknowledge, I think, that this point it's no longer exclusively the arena of the paranoid that citizens who engage in badthink online might, for example, have their taxes scrutinized extra careful like. Sure, it's not happening wholesale, but that's the magic of chilling effects - you only need a few good examples.

Besides, there's probably no good reason to examine all the reasons why these wholesale breaches of privacy are laying the groundwork for future totalitarianism or whatever. The founding fathers already covered that with the 4th amendment so no reason to reinvent the wheel. It doesn't matter how noble the mission of the NSA is in their heart of hearts, it only matters that they have been allowed to overreach and we must now correct that error.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Ouze wrote:

Besides, there's probably no good reason to examine all the reasons why these wholesale breaches of privacy are laying the groundwork for future totalitarianism or whatever. The founding fathers already covered that with the 4th amendment so no reason to reinvent the wheel. It doesn't matter how noble the mission of the NSA is in their heart of hearts, it only matters that they have been allowed to overreach and we must now correct that error.

This is all especially true, given the apparent apathy that the NSA is able to willfully ignore EO 12223

**Ouze**

Those are more like Executive Suggestions, amirite?

**Sgt_Scruffy**

guideline, really

**jamesk1973**

Unless it is an Obama executive order then that mofo is the fething law!

**Ensis Ferrae**

Ouze wrote:
Those are more like Executive Suggestions, amirite?

Perhaps the Head of the NSA's favorite movie is Pirates of the Caribbean??

**Alfndrate**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Ouze wrote:
Those are more like Executive Suggestions, amirite?

Perhaps the Head of the NSA's favorite movie is Pirates of the Caribbean??

Parlay!

**Alexzandvar**

jamesk1973 wrote:
"Also privacy rights are murky business, so I get why you might be afraid of them getting up in those but the NSA is not going to come steal your guns or take away your free speach. "

No, they'll just monitor my activities until their is "reasonable belief" that I possess weapons.

Then when the BATF is done collecting the weapons belonging to those folks who registered their weapons or joined the NRA; then they'll get around to me.

I don't get it, what would make them do that?

You made the leap from "People who look at my internet history" to "Evil over watch coming to take away my guns"

The fact that yes they can look to see what you possibly may do (despite the chances of randomly happening to you are about the same odds as being struck by lightning) does not mean they have the right to do anything but monitor.

I understand you believe they are violating your 4th rights, which is understandable, privacy rights have been a constantly moving thing for the past 100 years and need to be properly defined.

**jamesk1973**

Alexzandvar wrote:

I don't get it, what would make them do that?

You made the leap from "People who look at my internet history" to "Evil over watch coming to take away my guns"

Oh they are not going to come for them tomorrow of the next month.

Baby steps. Baby steps.

They are laying the groundwork for what is to come. This has been in the works for many years.

It is really just nature taking its course.

Every system submits to entropy. The system will attempt to overcome this decline through the increased use of force to maintain itself.

The ever increasing tightening of the government's grip will be crouched in innocuous terms such as safety and equality.

What it really means is dependence, power, and tyranny.

This has all happened before and will again.

**Co'tor Shas**

jamesk1973 wrote:
Alexzandvar wrote:

I don't get it, what would make them do that?

You made the leap from "People who look at my internet history" to "Evil over watch coming to take away my guns"

Oh they are not going to come for them tomorrow of the next month.

Baby steps. Baby steps.

They are laying the groundwork for what is to come. This has been in the works for many years.

It is really just nature taking its course.

Every system submits to entropy. The system will attempt to overcome this decline through the increased use of force to maintain itself.

The ever increasing tightening of the government's grip will be crouched in innocuous terms such as safety and equality.

What it really means is dependence, power, and tyranny.

This has all happened before and will again.

If you are kidding, it is very convincing. If you are not, than you probably have a tinfoil hat. Despite claims by insane people the government is not after your guns or trying to limit you freedom. The NSA is just a governemnt agency that overstepped it's bounds, as sometimes happens. There is no conspiracy, and you need to stop trying to create one.

**jamesk1973**

Co'tor Shas wrote:

There is no conspiracy, and you need to stop trying to create one.

...said the Jewish leaders in 1937.

I never said there was a conspiracy.

Throughout the ages governments and countries have come and gone. We are nothing special. What I am saying is this is how it starts.

**wowsmash**

Or are they? These are not the droids your looking for! Anyone?

**Kanluwen**

jamesk1973 wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:

There is no conspiracy, and you need to stop trying to create one.

...said the Jewish leaders in 1937.

I never said there was a conspiracy.

Throughout the ages governments and countries have come and gone. We are nothing special. What I am saying is this is how it starts.

Did you really just try to compare gun control to the Holocaust?

**Co'tor Shas**

jamesk1973 wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:

There is no conspiracy, and you need to stop trying to create one.

...said the Jewish leaders in 1937.

My god you are a

.

First off comparing this to the fething holocaust is wrong and insulting. It's as bad as republicans comparing the ACA to apartheid. Now what you need to do is either provide conclusive evidence that there is a government conspiracy in the US to take way our rights or, and please don't make me repeat myself, stop talking!

**Alfndrate**

jamesk1973 wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:

There is no conspiracy, and you need to stop trying to create one.

...said the Jewish leaders in 1937.

Well at first I thought you might be a little bonkers, but now I can see your nuts

Seriously, you just went off the proverbial deep end dude...

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
jamesk1973 wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:

There is no conspiracy, and you need to stop trying to create one.

...said the Jewish leaders in 1937.

My god you are a .

First off comparing this to the fething holocaust is wrong and insulting. It's as bad as republicans comparing the ACA to apartheid. Now what you need to do is either provide conclusive evidence that there is a government conspiracy in the US to take way our rights or, and please don't make me repeat myself, stop talking!

I believe he was using the holocaust as a showing that a government doesn't always care about all of it's people. I don't think he was trying to say gun control is equal or worse.

**daedalus**

jamesk1973 wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:

There is no conspiracy, and you need to stop trying to create one.

...said the Jewish leaders in 1937.

I never said there was a conspiracy.

Throughout the ages governments and countries have come and gone. We are nothing special. What I am saying is this is how it starts.

You know, I've never understood how on Earth people can sit back and declare, "oh that couldn't happen to us!" like something's changed or the world is somehow different now.

**jamesk1973**

I am just pointing out the flaw in your thinking.

No matter how much YOU do not want to believe in something does not make it so.

Throughout history tyranny has shown a common theme.

Disarm the civilian population at the earliest possible opportunity.

Their favorite reason is for the citizen's "protection" or "safety".

“Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA — ordinary citizens don’t need guns, as their having guns doesn’t serve the state.” - Heinrich Himmler.

“Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe.”
~Senator Diane Feinstein, 1993

**Kanluwen**

You really do not understand why this makes you look paranoid and completely smashes any reasonable argument you might have had, do you?

**whembly**

Kanluwen wrote:
You really do not understand why this makes you look paranoid and completely smashes any reasonable argument you might have had, do you?

What's wrong with keeping your weapons? Even *if* you want to have it in case our government goes "tyrannical"?? (mind you, we're no where fething close to that).

Further more... why can't we all be good prepared boys scouts?

**Alfndrate**

whembly wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
You really do not understand why this makes you look paranoid and completely smashes any reasonable argument you might have had, do you?

What's wrong with keeping your weapons? Even *if* you want to have it in case our government goes "tyrannical"?? (mind you, we're no where fething close to that).

Further more... why can't we all be good prepared boys scouts?

It's not that, it was the, "said the Jewish leaders in 1937" comment...