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Just curious does Sammael and white scar chapter tactic stack. The chapter tactic does not say it gives skilled rider it gives +1 jink, and auto pass danerous terrain test. So if Sammael joined a white scar unit and conferred skilled rider to them do you get +2 to your jink save?

Only models with the chapter Tactics rule(and appropriate Chapter Tactics) benefit from the chapter Tactics special rules.

So, No because Samael does not have Chapter Tactics at all, let alone Chapter Tactics(White Scars).

The Chapter Tactics rule is rather well written for Allies, which is good because you could easily have a unit with 2 different chapter Tactics via allies rules.

I don't see why not

Sammy wouldn't benefit but the unit would benefit from the wording you have posted, I will go look up the respective rules and see.

sammy would be focus fired to death before it would come into play so i dont see the advantage

Yes, models with both skilled rider and born in the saddle will receive a +2 bonus to jink saves.

I've looked at the respective rules now and it would work, Sammy would indeed not benefit due to the lack of chapter tactics.

Hiwpi, it will not be allowed as white scars chapter tactics is clearly the same as skilled rider just lacking the usr and it smacks at exploiting to me, as always you are all free to do as you please

 Formosa wrote:
I've looked at the respective rules now and it would work, Sammy would indeed not benefit due to the lack of chapter tactics.

Hiwpi, it will not be allowed as white scars chapter tactics is clearly the same as skilled rider just lacking the usr and it smacks at exploiting to me, as always you are all free to do as you please

Which using that logic, means that it was clearly intended to stack with Skilled Rider, otherwise they would have just stated that that CT = gains skilled Rider.

Fragile wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I've looked at the respective rules now and it would work, Sammy would indeed not benefit due to the lack of chapter tactics.

Hiwpi, it will not be allowed as white scars chapter tactics is clearly the same as skilled rider just lacking the usr and it smacks at exploiting to me, as always you are all free to do as you please

Which using that logic, means that it was clearly intended to stack with Skilled Rider, otherwise they would have just stated that that CT = gains skilled Rider.

As I said play it the way you like, at any event I run it will be disallowed, you are of course allowed to interpret it anyway you like, we run rai mainly here and a group of us agree beforehand and have an in-house faq to cover such things.

RAI it does work, because if they didn;t want Whate Scars chapter tactics to stack with Skilled Rider, they would have made White Scars' have Skilled rider in the first place

 CrownAxe wrote:
RAI it does work, because if they didn;t want Whate Scars chapter tactics to stack with Skilled Rider, they would have made White Scars' have Skilled rider in the first place

In your opinion, which whilst valid differs from mine, in my opinion they wanted to add a set of rules to explain an effect rather than one line thst says "white scars have skilled rider" to flesh out there chapter tactic like the other ones.

They are identical rules and unless otherwise stated in an faq I will treat them as such, skilled rider doesn't stack with itself and that how I will treat this, I as a ravenwing player would quite like it to but that is not how it works with me and my group, we all agree and modify rules to how we see they should be, as said before you are free to do as you please, if I play at tour venue I will do it your way, if you play at mine then it's our way as you'd expect at any kind if event or friendly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw a good example of this is the coteaz debate, we treat him as identical and as such you cannot have 2 in the same army regardless of a slight rule change or wording.

Thank you op for spotting this.

 Formosa wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
RAI it does work, because if they didn;t want Whate Scars chapter tactics to stack with Skilled Rider, they would have made White Scars' have Skilled rider in the first place

In your opinion, which whilst valid differs from mine, in my opinion they wanted to add a set of rules to explain an effect rather than one line thst says "white scars have skilled rider" to flesh out there chapter tactic like the other ones.

They are identical rules and unless otherwise stated in an faq I will treat them as such, skilled rider doesn't stack with itself and that how I will treat this, I as a ravenwing player would quite like it to but that is not how it works with me and my group, we all agree and modify rules to how we see they should be, as said before you are free to do as you please, if I play at tour venue I will do it your way, if you play at mine then it's our way as you'd expect at any kind if event or friendly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw a good example of this is the coteaz debate, we treat him as identical and as such you cannot have 2 in the same army regardless of a slight rule change or wording.

Thank you op for spotting this.

Just for the record, there is a huge difference between Born in the Saddle and Skilled Rider. Skilled Rider adds +1 to all cover saves and doesn't require movement for the benefit to kick in. So a SR behind a ruin starts at 3+ cover. BitS only improves Jink saves, so a WS behind a ruin is still a 4+. I think RAI they didn't consider them stacking, as the WS trait is set to represent specific expertise on a Bike and Skilled Rider has the same general intent but with a universal application between different unit types. SR is also not available in the base marine codex. RAW, they do stack.

Skilled rider is +1 to jink only and auto passes dang, go check it out, not saying this in a bad way just that you are mistaken


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you are missing or simply not reading my other posts, I know they stack, we have ruled however that this was not intended and have disallowed it, pure raw is too abusable as is trying to use just rai, we use both and agree, I simply don't see the issue you guys are making of this haha

Conceded. Missed that little tidbit when I last had to read it.

@Formosa I don't think determining which rules are correct by giving your groups house rules as a method is conducive to RAW. Skilled rider and white scars ct are indeed two completely different things.

 Formosa wrote:
Skilled rider is +1 to jink only and auto passes dang, go check it out, not saying this in a bad way just that you are mistaken


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you are missing or simply not reading my other posts, I know they stack, we have ruled however that this was not intended and have disallowed it, pure raw is too abusable as is trying to use just rai, we use both and agree, I simply don't see the issue you guys are making of this haha

Technically The Chapter Tactic is different because it gives S5 Hammer of Wrath

 Formosa wrote:
I know they stack, we have ruled however that this was not intended and have disallowed it, pure raw is too abusable as is trying to use just rai, we use both and agree, I simply don't see the issue you guys are making of this haha

The default position of YMDC is RAW. So unless otherwise stated, that's what posters are looking for; ie. the OP wants RAW, not the strange and obscure house rules your club plays with.
Also, if you're worried about Scars being OP....then you don't have any Wave Serpents in your club, I'm guessing.

Formosa, I'd think you above all other people here being a dark angel's player would recognize the merit of "getting creative" as I am with this combo. We all know dark angels are subpar, so what is wrong with creative combo's in order to bring us back into the realm of competition? Seems like you'r throwing salt on my game.

DA are not sub par, they are the best at what they do. What they do is not an easy stratagem to play and isn't very flexible.

That aside, The rules do stack RAW. They are not identical and there is no reason to believe they were not intended to stack, and I cnnot think of any examples of two similar rules not stacking because they were similar. Looking at the way other chapter tactics where written it is more reasonable to believe they were intended to stack.

 DJGietzen wrote:
DA are not sub par, they are the best at what they do. What they do is not an easy stratagem to play and isn't very flexible.

That aside, The rules do stack RAW. They are not identical and there is no reason to believe they were not intended to stack, and I cnnot think of any examples of two similar rules not stacking because they were similar. Looking at the way other chapter tactics where written it is more reasonable to believe they were intended to stack.

Yeah, they are sub-par if you don't believe me, look here

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/stats/armies

I only see one army on that list with 1 win per 2 losses and a substantial amount of games played.

Thanks for everyone's input, your all still not reading my posts so I will spell it out.

I know they stack, no ifs, no buts, no arrrghs.

we as a group however have decided that skilled rider does not stack with it.

I'm not interested nor looking for a debate on this so please stop wasting your time, I only posted what we have decided as an aid to others if they wanted an alternative to raw, forum rules aside it is usefull to have more than one opinion on the subject

 Formosa wrote:
Thanks for everyone's input, your all still not reading my posts so I will spell it out.

I know they stack, no ifs, no buts, no arrrghs.

we as a group however have decided that skilled rider does not stack with it.

I'm not interested nor looking for a debate on this so please stop wasting your time, I only posted what we have decided as an aid to others if they wanted an alternative to raw, forum rules aside it is usefull to have more than one opinion on the subject

Nobody ever questioned if it is okay to use house rules. They question your reasoning and the fact that you let a clear HIWPI look like it would be RAI. They showed to you why your interpretation of the Intent could be wrong.

The way you are playing this particular case has nothing to do with RAI or RAW. Its a house rule that (although you can feel free to play with of course) nerfs an army for no reason. I wouldnt want to play in your group.

Thats like saying long fangs split fire was intended to work like the USR. Just because they are vaguely similar.

Im at work ... so im not wasting my time ...

Fire control and split fire are not remotely worded the same or have the same rules or effect.

Skilled rider and born in the saddle are functionally identical with the exception of hammer of wrath bolted to the end, we agreed that the only reason they didn't just say "skilled rider and +1 str how" was that we believe it's been done to pad out the rule to make it similar looking to the others, we also believe this is a deliberate design edit.

This is the rai we are referring to, you of course can disagree but your opinion is just as valid as ours, short of the designer saying.otherwise there is no way to know the true rai.

To sum it up, 'No, Sammael doesn't benefit from Chapter Tactics(White Scars), because read your darn codex.'

Because if you did read your codex, you'd know you can't do that.

 Formosa wrote:
Fire control and split fire are not remotely worded the same or have the same rules or effect.

Skilled rider and born in the saddle are functionally identical with the exception of hammer of wrath bolted to the end, we agreed that the only reason they didn't just say "skilled rider and +1 str how" was that we believe it's been done to pad out the rule to make it similar looking to the others, we also believe this is a deliberate design edit.

This is the rai we are referring to, you of course can disagree but your opinion is just as valid as ours, short of the designer saying.otherwise there is no way to know the true rai.

The RAW are very clear here. You already acknowledged that. So why exactly do you think it would be helpful to read about a house rule that is built upon a wobbly RAI interpretation which is demonstrably subjective at best?

People get confused over stuff like this. I personally dont think its a reasonable interpretation of the rules at all.

Oh and if you dont want to discuss ... dont respond. Im wasting my time at work on dec 23rd ... thats not a waste thats protest!

Crazyterran wrote:
To sum it up, 'No, Sammael doesn't benefit from Chapter Tactics(White Scars), because read your darn codex.'

Because if you did read your codex, you'd know you can't do that.

What I'm reading is that you do, but Sammael doesn't get the white scars, but his trait skilled rider is conferred to his unit. Since Dark Angels, and Space Marines are battle brothers he can join a full 10 man(w AB) white scar bike squad, and all of them will have 3+ cover saves in the open with movement, and 2+ if they turbo in the open, just leave sammael in the back since he's got 1 less than the squad.

 Mywik wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Fire control and split fire are not remotely worded the same or have the same rules or effect.

Skilled rider and born in the saddle are functionally identical with the exception of hammer of wrath bolted to the end, we agreed that the only reason they didn't just say "skilled rider and +1 str how" was that we believe it's been done to pad out the rule to make it similar looking to the others, we also believe this is a deliberate design edit.

This is the rai we are referring to, you of course can disagree but your opinion is just as valid as ours, short of the designer saying.otherwise there is no way to know the true rai.

The RAW are very clear here. You already acknowledged that. So why exactly do you think it would be helpful to read about a house rule that is built upon a wobbly RAI interpretation which is demonstrably subjective at best?

People get confused over stuff like this. I personally dont think its a reasonable interpretation of the rules at all.

Oh and if you dont want to discuss ... dont respond. Im wasting my time at work on dec 23rd ... thats not a waste thats protest!

Haha well spoken and to answer, call it wobbly all you like but differing opinions are always welcome, just because raw they work doesn't mean everyone thinks they should, so I put what we have done so that others can see while there is a raw, you don't necessarily have to be forced into it.

Best example is one I used earlier, raw seems to be that 2 coteaz are allowed, this is clearly ridiculous and as such we don't allow it, raw is not perfect and neither is rai, we try to walk the line and I encourage others to do similar

I would like to point out, that Formosa did say (initially) RAW yes, HIWPI no. It was only later he changed "HIWPI" to RAI.

I disagree the intent is not stack (otherwise they would have just given them the rule, or said it does not stack) nor do I see it as broken (our any other error you care to use). Unlike Doom with EW in Kill Teams, or WS with Shrouded in Kill Teams (back when both were allowed).

Niexist wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
DA are not sub par, they are the best at what they do. What they do is not an easy stratagem to play and isn't very flexible.

That aside, The rules do stack RAW. They are not identical and there is no reason to believe they were not intended to stack, and I cnnot think of any examples of two similar rules not stacking because they were similar. Looking at the way other chapter tactics where written it is more reasonable to believe they were intended to stack.

Yeah, they are sub-par if you don't believe me, look here

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/stats/armies

I only see one army on that list with 1 win per 2 losses and a substantial amount of games played.

While I cannot see that without joining, I can simply say that those type of lists have little bearing on whether a army is subpar or not. Only 1 army on the list proves that there is not enough data to make that claim.

DA are most definitely NOT Sub-par!!
Maybe played by beginner players because they're in the Starter set... But not sub-par. Play Adepta Sororitas and then talk about sub-par, but even they are not too bad...

odin wrote:
sammy would be focus fired to death before it would come into play so i dont see the advantage

As much as i'd agree the WS would have 2+, see above
You cannot Look out Sir! on Focus Fire either. Sammael would go down fast!