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2013/12/26 00:57:28
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor (Completed)
I, of course, never back down from any challenge. However, instead of taking my indestructible necrons, I opted to try out another top-tier tournament build instead - FMC Daemons. That is mainly because I wanted to try out Be'lakor, whose dataslate just came out a couple of days before. BTW, this battle took place before my battle against the O'vesa-star:
Grant's Seer Council build is a really tough army to play against. It is the only army build currently (and he is the only player currently) that has consistently given all of my armies problems (as well as a losing record). Well, all except my necrons, but that is because he hasn't faced my necrons with his seer council ever since the new Eldar codex came out yet. Since our last battle, my opponent has changed up his list. And I'm not talking about a minor tweak. He's given it a complete face-lift. Gone are his MSU wave serpents and venoms. In are the wraithknights (which, ironically, he had to borrow both of my wraithknights in order to run this list). In any case, this is going to be a tough fight and against an unbelievably tough army run by a veteran seer council player. Can Be'lakor and the daemons triumph? We will soon find out.
Be'lakor (Warlord)
Fateweaver - Fire Shield + Prescience, Iron Arm + Psychic Shriek
10x Pink Horrors
10x Pink Horrors
Daemon Prince - Daemon of Tzeentch, Level 1 Psyker, 3+, Wings, 1x Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names), 1x Greater Gift (Re-roll Invuln's) - Flickering Fire Daemon Prince - Daemon of Tzeentch, Level 1 Psyker, 3+, Wings, 1x Exalted Gift (Portaglyph), 1x Greater Gift (+1 Wound, It Will Not Die) - Flickering Fire
Allies:
Daemon Prince - Daemon of Tzeentch, Level 3 Psyker, 3+, Wings, The Black Mace - Enfeeble, Warp Speed, Smite
10x Cultists
Heldrake
The "Big Three".
2000 Eldar/Dark Eldar
This is an approximation of his list:
Primary:
Farseer - Jetbike, Shard of Anaris - Doom, Fortune, Guide Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, ? - Guide, Eldritch Storm, Mind War
1. 5 flying monstrous creatures. There is a 1 in 9 chance only of grounding 1 with Fateweaver there. Eldar does not have enough shots....unless they are willing to risk their troops contributing to their offense.
2. A one-man psychic wrecking machine. With Terrify and Hallucination (and to a degree, Puppet Master), he is the guy that will force the space elves to play a little more conservatively.
3. Terrify + Assault = really bad news for the Eldar.
4. Hallucination can really screw with the seer council.
5. Heldrakes = dead jetbikes.
6. Black Mace = a work-around for the re-rollable shenanigans. Now it's take a Toughness test or be removed from the game. Black Mace + Terrify = extremely bad news for Eldar.
7. Daemons have their own re-rollable 2++ shenanigans.
8. Board control. With 6 flyers and super-mobility, daemons should be able to control where the space elves will be. Positional Dominance - the control of the Movement Phase - will be a key strategy of Daemons.
9. Daemons have got 2 Eternal Warriors (Be'lakor + Iron Arm on Fateweaver) and a 3rd unit with re-rollable 2++. Insta-death from the wraithknights won't be as big a deal, especially since daemons are going 1st.
10. With the heldrake and a potential 48" of shooting from the FMC's, daemons should be able to get to the Eldar troops almost anywhere....and that will in essence be my strategy.
Eldar:
Top 10 Reasons Why Eldar Will Win.
1. Eldar are going 2nd in an objectives game. 'nuff said.
2. Re-rollable 2+ is a b*otch. My only reliable way of killing his seer council is in Assault, and that is only if I can get Terrify off.
3. Fortune + Runes of Warding means that the seer council is denying psychic powers on a re-rollable 3+.
4. Eldar mobility. Eldar (and necrons) are truly the masters of the Movement phase. Even their monstrous creatures are pretty darn fast.
5. Any MC that cannot wipe out the seer council in combat is basically dead the next turn (unless it's got a re-rollable 2++ as well). Hit-&-Run followed by shooting and assault will make damn sure of that.
6. Eldar psychic powers. Besides Fortune, they've got Doom, Mind War with a LD advantage, Renewer to heal wounds on the wraithknights and Conceal/Reveal to take away Shroud/Invisibility from Be'lakor.
7. Wraithknights will make daemons play a little more cautiously with their potential to insta-kill 2 key daemons - the Black Mace Daemon Prince (who can be 3++ maximum) and the Grimoire DP itself. They can control the movement of the Daemons to a degree.
8. 5 highly mobile troops vs 3 slow troops (+ the Portaglyph). The Portaglyph can easily be 1-shotted by a wraithknight. Fortunately we are not playing Big Guns as well!
9. Eldar does have the firepower to reliably ground 1 FMC a turn, especially if their troops contribute. Not counting the jetbike troops, they've got the seer council, 3 wraithknights, vemon and the warriors. Any Daemon FMC that is grounded (and without 2++) is practically dead, especially if they are within assault range of the seer council.
10. Did I mention that Eldar is going 2nd in an objectives game? Well, that's got to be worth 2 spots on the Top 10. They could lose the seer council and the wraithknights and still win the game because of this!
I don't recall the Eldar Warlord Trait, but it probably wasn't very important.
Be'lakor, Warlord for Chaos, has his own unique Warlord trait.
I deploy my MC's more towards my right corner. That is because I plan to use the central LOS-blocking terrain to my advantage.
The "turtle" is my Emperor's Will objective.
Just as I had anticipated, my opponent deploys in the opposite corner as far away from my daemons as possible.
Just a note here. My opponent was somewhat off his game today. I'm not sure whether it was fatigue, ring rust (he's been playing mainly Fantasy recently) or something else, but he did seem a little out of focus today.
He actually deploys his units initially at about 37" from my forces. I then remind him that my daemons can swoop 24" and then shoot 24". Thus, he resets his deployment and basically deploys as far away as he can.
In any case, this will allow me to take advantage of the protection of the central BLOS (blocking LOS) terrain.
Overview of our deployment.
All troops will be in reserves, with the exception of my opponent's Kabalite warriors in venom.
He then attempts to seize the initiative but fails.
Fateweaver - Iron Arm
CSM Daemon Prince (DP) - Invisibility
Be'lakor - Grimoire for the 2++
Basically, this would be the standard configuration of my daemons so unless I note otherwise, you can assume they will have these powers on.
I swoop all my FMC's and hide them behind the BLOS terrain. However, I decide to play Be'lakor very aggressively. Probably more aggressively than is prudent, but I'm not really too concerned. He's got a 8/9 chance of staying in the air and then he's got a 2++ save behind that. And if Grant is foolish enough to try to assault him, I've got 4 FMC's backing him up for the counter-assault.
My attempt at Puppet Master either gets denied or it did nothing.
Deldar 1
Spoiler:
The seer council cast their powers, including Guides on 2 WK's.
Grant then backs everyone up.
So much for board control for the WK's.
He then fires everything at Be'lakor and does squat. Be'lakor remains in the air and unscathed.
My opponent then uses his assault move to screen out his "precious" wraithknights.
So far, my opponent is playing very conservatively. If it was me, I'd at least leave 1 WK out as bait for Be'lakor to charge....but that's just me.
Chaos 2
Spoiler:
So I start off by casting Terrify. Grant makes the mistake of trying to save his Runes of Warding for a rainy day, but with Fortune, he has a re-rollable 5+ Deny attempt. Lo and behold, he fails! Though he does pass the subsequent Morale test, his seer council is no longer Fearless this turn.
So now I've got a major decision to make. It's a really risky one....but one that could potentially win me the game this turn. All of my FMC's are too far away to make the charge....with the exception of Be'lakor. So here's the gamble - Be'lakor is in range to assault. Now I'd prefer it to be my Black Mace DP, but that's not going to happen this turn. He's about 23-24" away (though he is Fleet from Warp Speed). If I assault and if I can cause enough wounds, I can potentially break the seer council. If I do that, then they will be destroyed. They are right at the board edge so I can either potentially sweep them or they will run off the table.
If I fail, I will most likely lose Be'lakor and also give up First Blood and Warlord as well. However, I've only got a very small window of opportunity. On my next turn, I may not be so lucky to get Terrify off again. I doubt my opponent would hold back using his Runes of Warding for a 2nd attempt.
Oh, and the Helturkey comes in.
Be'lakor decides to show the world what a big, bad, 1-man wrecking crew bad-a$$ that he is.
BTW, he currently has 2++ and Invisibility on him.
Nooooo!!! Be'lakor issues a challenge, which my opponent accepts with a farseer (the Baron was too far). He then smashes but my opponent makes both of his re-rollable 4++ saves.
The seer council then Hit-&-Runs out of combat.
Deldar 2
Spoiler:
2 of the jetbikes come in and my opponent turbo-boosts them deep into my deployment zone, thinking they'll be safe from my heldrake.
I decide NOT too remind him that the heldrake can go into Hover mode. After the fiasco that was my Turn 2, I can't afford to play nice anymore.
Eldar movement. He successfully casts Doom on Be'lakor.
This is going to hurt, especially with my Warlord in essence, grounded.
Shooting takes off 3W from my Warlord.
The seer council assaults....
....and then finishes him off in combat.
That nets both Warlord and First Blood for my opponent.
I must say, that is one gamble that definitely did not pay off.
Chaos 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
1 unit of horrors come in here.
Cultists walk onto my Emperor's Will objective.
Helturkey goes into Hovering mode and fly backwards.
Windriders are about to get something stinky coming their way.
Fateweaver glides backwards as well. He is insurance in case the helturkey doesn't finish the job.
The flaming fart of death! Daemons are having Kentucky Fried space elves tonight, if you smell what the turkey is cooking.
Daemons then run.
Deldar 3
Spoiler:
The space elves maneuver to try to get a bead on my daemons. My opponent continues to play very conservatively.
This is what I mean by board control. I control the middle, with all of my daemons safely tucked away and out of sight. If my opponent gets anywhere near the middle (and thus, near my FMC's), he is looking at a potential assault by 3 Daemon Princes, one of which has the Black Mace. Thus, my opponent is forced to play somewhat more conservatively.
No shooting. He does not have LOS or range to my units.
Chaos 4
Spoiler:
My last unit of horrors come in. They almost scatter off the table. 1 dies to dangerous terrain.
Daemons wait and drop off the Turtleglyph.
Helturkey flies off the table.
I send a T8 Fatey with his re-rollable 2++ forwards. Can Big Bird stave off the eldar assault all by himself?
Up until this point, I was doing fine. No, better than fine, I actually felt that I had the advantage despite the loss of Be'lakor. And then we go to the Warpstorm table. BTW, Fatey already used his re-roll this turn for the Grimoire.
Warpstorm table is a 3D6 Daemonic Instability test for a random character (with the Daemonic Instability rule).
It strikes my Grimoire DP. He then fails his LD test on a 13 and dies!
NOOOOOOO!!!
Deldar 4
Spoiler:
Well, that warpstorm result was pretty game-changing. I've just lost my advantage and now, it'll be an uphill battle for my daemons.
Bikes come in and turbo-boost into the corner on the side where Grant's army is.
His other jetbike troops are hiding in his corner where his Emperor's Will objective is.
The seer council gets into position to try to assault my horrors. Actually, his plan is to try to multi-assault both my horrors and Fateweaver but I doubt he will be able to do so.
In shooting, he fails to ground Fateweaver.
However, the seer council does manage to successfully make the 8" charge through difficult terrain. Only 2-3 models are able to fight and they take out 2 horrors (1 from assault and 1 from Daemonic Instability).
Chaos 5
Spoiler:
I actually still feel good about my chances. Helturkey comes in. Fateweaver swoops towards my opponent's objectives.
I can potentially take out all of his troops this turn. Helturkey can potentially take out both units of jetbikes - 1 with vector strikes and the other with his flaming bad breath. Fatey can easily shoot down the venom and if I get a little lucky, maybe the troops inside will run away from the ensuing explosion.
No! Vector-strike manages only to kill 2 bikers. The lone remaining biker then passes morale.
Cultists spread out to try to deny my opponent the contest.
Horrors spread out as well. Black Mace DP plays free safety in case the game continues.
Portaglyph DP flies up to threaten the objectives. I also try to move him into position to shoot down the surviving biker, but he is about 1" away.
Portaglyph then produces a unit of 6 horrors, who then run towards an objective. Unfortunately, I roll very low for their run move and they do not make it to the objective.
Helturkey wipes out the 3rd unit of jetbikes.
However, the venom denies Fatey's attempt at Flickering Fire!!!
Finally, the seer council wipes out the unit of horrors in assault.
Damn, I think I just blew it. My plan to wipe out all of his troops this turn (or at least 2 of them) only ended up with 1 unit dead. If the game ends on 5, I'm pretty sure my opponent should take this.
Deldar 5
Spoiler:
Lone jetbike goes to claim 1 objective.
WK's spread out.
Warriors go to claim their Emperor's Will objective.
The Baron splits off from the seer council and goes after Fateweaver.
The seer council then turbos to try to contest both of my objectives.
Deldar knock Fatey from the sky and put 3W on him with shooting.
They then take him out with a combo-charge from both the Baron and 1 WK.
We then roll to see if the game continues. It doesn't.
It turns out that the seer council is contesting my Emperor's Will objective....
....as well as my only Crusade objective.
So Deldar takes both the Primary (Emperor's Will) and the Secondary (Crusade). My opponent has also got First Blood, Warlord and Linebreaker. The only thing I've got is Linebreaker with my Portaglyph DP. Deldar wins it 10-1.
Total Domination by Seer Council Deldar!!!
BTW, we played a hypothetical 6th turn. Check it out for some interesting results.
Chaos 6
Spoiler:
So just to see what would happen, we played a hypothetical 6th turn.
Heldrake goes into Hover mode and wipes out the unit of warriors on my opponent's Emperor's Will objective.
The Black Mace DP casts Warp Speed. He then assaults the seer council.
Now Grant must be really tired, because he accepts with the Shard of Anaris farseer (the Baron was too far away to accept).
My DP then insta-gibs him with a Smash attack and then sweeps the entire unit!
I would have won with a Crushing Victory, taking both the Primary and Secondary had the game continued! Oh well, it is what it is. Sometimes, the dice goes for you and sometimes it goes against.
In any case, it was a very fun cat-&-mouse type of game where the "threat" of each other's armies was more pronounced than the actual damage output by either.
Post-game Analysis coming out tonight. Right now, I've got an Escalation game to play. Cheers.
Isn't it ironic to see what are normally 2 very aggressive armies playing so passively? That may make for a more boring game, but I feel that tactically, it makes sense in this matchup. Over-commit against an army with so much mobility and you just may be in trouble. The foolish thing would have been to rush the enemy. The more prudent thing would be to wait and see what happens. I know, that's very uncharacteristic of my playstyle. Likewise, it is also very uncharacteristic for my opponent as well. I'm talking about someone who would aggressively assault my 1000 pt+ paladinstar with his seer council in my other games.
So why did I do the things that I did? Why did I send Be'lakor all by himself against the entire Eldar army? Some see this as a mistake and I will say that I do not disagree with them. It was a calculated gamble that I took. The risk was high but so was the reward. I sacrificed Be'lakor, my Warlord, in order to potentially take out a unit about 3x his cost. Taking out that unit would have almost guaranteed me the game. Now if this was in a tournament, I most likely wouldn't have made that gamble. I would have chosen the safer route and kept Be'lakor in the air instead (or fly him off the table). However, this was just a casual game. In a casual game, it's ok to take some gambles. It's ok to take risks. That is what casual games are for - practice. You can practice unorthodox lists and strategies. You can experiment with tactics/things you normally don't do or use. It's ok to take a stumble and then try to get back up again. My win/loss record isn't as important to me as many would think. Of course I play to win, but I honestly don't mind losing if that would help me to improve my game. As a matter of fact, I'm actually glad I did what I did here in a casual game rather than if I had done it in a tournament game.
As for my opponent, he actually played alright. He had a sound, if somewhat conservative strategy. Then again, so did I. He was slightly off his game in regards to some of the finer details, and it almost cost him, but overall, his strategy was fundamentally sound. But despite all his mistakes, I basically handed Grant the game when I lost my Grimoire DP to the Warpstorm. I felt that that was the real turning point in the game, not the loss of Be'lakor. Losing Be'lakor hurt, but at that point, I still felt that I had control of the game. But after I lost the Grimoire, it just went downhill from there. Even my dice seemed to abandon me thereafter.
Running Fateweaver, Be'lakor and the Black Mace Daemon Prince prince makes for a potentially devastating combo, but for the long haul, I think I'm going to stick with Fateweaver, Lord of Change and Be'lakor. As a daemon player, if you are looking for some consistency in your army, you definitely need a way to control the Warpstorm table. In other words, you need Fateweaver to be your Warlord.
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2013/12/30 23:38:37
You need fateweacver for his reroll on the Warpstorm table.
I do however feel that the eldar list is unbalanced, you will however have a hard time to down the three nights.
He does have fortune, so the unit will be nigh unkillable. But no scryers gaze, so if his bikes come in to fast you will have time to kill them.
I gave it to the the deamons as he lacks the shooting to force enough grounding tests.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/26 09:30:46
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/12/26 09:46:58
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
There is also the fact Be'Lakor Has to be Warlord due to Fateweaver being only Ld 9 while Be'Lakor is Ld 10. I am not sure on this one, those knights will be very hardy because the only way you are killing them is in melee, which is risky for your normal Princes because if they don't kill him in one turn they are likely to be smashed if not rocking a 2+ invul. But I'd also wonder about the Eldars ability to ground your Princes considering the jetbikes will be hiding all game he only has two reliable units that can put hits on you, being the Fragile Venom and the TL catapults of the Seer council. Also this is another prime example of a Seerstar NOT taking runes of warding/Witnessing, they are 10/15pts each that could save your entire deathstar via re-rolling that failed fortune test or having a 3+ deny vs Hallucination/Terrify instead of a 5+, THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO TAKE THEM!
Rant over, now I think about it this is firmly in JY2's hands, the Black Mace guy is a deathstar destroyer and Be'lakor can kill a wraithknight a turn without fear. Then it just becomes a game of chase the jetbikes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/26 09:50:36
2013/12/26 10:12:44
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
What's funny is you can actually sing the song correctly with those lyrics! Well played.
I'm voting for demons.
How did you manage number 3??? A vote for daemons from me, too.
Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS.
2013/12/26 15:36:20
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
Valek wrote: You need fateweacver for his reroll on the Warpstorm table.
I do however feel that the eldar list is unbalanced, you will however have a hard time to down the three nights.
He does have fortune, so the unit will be nigh unkillable. But no scryers gaze, so if his bikes come in to fast you will have time to kill them.
I gave it to the the deamons as he lacks the shooting to force enough grounding tests.
Yeah, it's a gamble not running Fateweaver as the Warlord, but I'm going to take that chance in this game, all in the name of experimentation.
Actually, I can kill the wraithknights quite easily. Terrify + assault = sweeping advance.
Yeah, my priority will be his troops. There's no point going after his seer council....unless I can successfully Terrify them.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: There is also the fact Be'Lakor Has to be Warlord due to Fateweaver being only Ld 9 while Be'Lakor is Ld 10. I am not sure on this one, those knights will be very hardy because the only way you are killing them is in melee, which is risky for your normal Princes because if they don't kill him in one turn they are likely to be smashed if not rocking a 2+ invul. But I'd also wonder about the Eldars ability to ground your Princes considering the jetbikes will be hiding all game he only has two reliable units that can put hits on you, being the Fragile Venom and the TL catapults of the Seer council. Also this is another prime example of a Seerstar NOT taking runes of warding/Witnessing, they are 10/15pts each that could save your entire deathstar via re-rolling that failed fortune test or having a 3+ deny vs Hallucination/Terrify instead of a 5+, THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO TAKE THEM!
Rant over, now I think about it this is firmly in JY2's hands, the Black Mace guy is a deathstar destroyer and Be'lakor can kill a wraithknight a turn without fear. Then it just becomes a game of chase the jetbikes.
I'm sorry. He actually does have Runes of Warding (maybe even 2). I just forgot to list it.
It's been awhile. I don't quite recall everything on his list.
What's funny is you can actually sing the song correctly with those lyrics! Well played.
I'm voting for demons.
How did you manage number 3??? A vote for daemons from me, too.
Grimoire, Portaglyph and the Black Mace.
Sorry, should've been clearer: I meant how the feth did he manage to sing that line in the melody/tune of the song?!
Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS.
2013/12/26 17:31:53
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
I think... that the Daemons can do a decent job against the Seer Council, due to their awesome speed and ability to redeploy via Ongoing Reserves. While the Seer Council is great at surviving (I doubt jy2 will bother even thinking about them unless they fail their Ld. 10 Fortune), they won't do much to help make one of the FMCs fall out of the sky. If we assume that Guide goes off on 2 of the Wraithknights, and everything goes "averagely", there is actually a *great* chance that the Council list will fail to bring even one Prince down in a turn of shooting (barring Insta-death from S10). That's all assuming jy2 gives all available units the range to shoot at them.
The Council will need to play somewhat defensively, as if he over-commits in the wrong direction, the Daemons will be able to kill the troops fairly easily, vector-striking the poor jetbikes into oblivion on their way off the board.
I actually think that this game could be a total rout in favor of Daemons, depending on terrain and objective placement at least. Trickiest part will be for jy2 to get the Crusade objectives, as the Council will be able to "guarantee" that one is not claimable. In any case, I really think the Council list is going to be fighting an uphill battle, and will rely on getting a few lucky S10 shots off on the FMCs to insta-kill them early on.
Looking forward to the Black Mace Prince single-handedly dismantling a Wraithknight, then getting obliterated by return fire. Warp Speed on that guy is just hilarious!
Thats no moon, thats a... no, wait... thats a moon.
having used wraithknights against FMC circus it is disgusting. I think it'll be a draw but the Wraithknights will be far more a problem than people think
13000
12000
:daemon 14000
:darkeldar 5000
2013/12/26 19:45:06
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
Black mace and Belakor are good counters to the wraithknights (assuming the Knights don't stay inside area terrain and get to swing first). The CSM prince's powers are illegal though, he needs at least one Tzeentch. 2 guided wraith knights plus a third unguided could give the princes trouble even if they stay in the air. 5 Reveals will be useful for dropping invisibility or Belakor's shrouding, on the other hand if Belakor ever gets Terrify off on the council a couple FMCs could probably sweep them. I don't see many troops living through the battle on either side, interested to see how it plays out.
2013/12/26 22:41:50
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
I think the Daemons are going to take this as his opponent lacks the friepower to bring him down. With puppet master he'll be able to control wraithknights and might get lucky at insta-killing other wraithknights and with Terrify he'll sweep the Eldar deathstar. I am really looking to forward to seeing this batrep.
-5000 Pts. of Orks
-1750 Pts. of Ravenwing
2013/12/26 23:17:18
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
This is a tough one. I think people are far underestimating Wraithknights. They are only 240 points and Daemons are going to have to devote tons of points to take one down. Plus they have 2 S10 AP2 guns, it is ridiculous...
Argel Tal and Cyrene: Still a better love story than Twilight
2013/12/27 00:37:33
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
herpguy wrote: This is a tough one. I think people are far underestimating Wraithknights. They are only 240 points and Daemons are going to have to devote tons of points to take one down. Plus they have 2 S10 AP2 guns, it is ridiculous...
Yeah wraithkights really aren't that incredibly hard to kill. As said previously Belakor can flatten them. S10 AP2 is great until you realise most of the daemons heavy hitters are FMC's so aren't going to be hit to often. I personally believe that 3 wraithkights are more of a liability especially against this daemon list. I can't see them accomplishing a lot and seem like a large point sink on something that won't realistically earn its cost back and has no strategic relevance.
2013/12/27 00:57:24
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
This was before idea of the current change to the 2+ reroll that jy2 suggested so I was still playing it as a regular reroll. It would be interesting to get a rematch with jy2 with the new changes in the reroll.
I honestly don't know how much it would change the outcome but but it would interesting still. Close combat wouldn't change much since demons lack reliable shooting in this game the 4++ reroll is the only major reroll I relied on
2013/12/27 17:23:01
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
1. 5 flying monstrous creatures. There is a 1 in 9 chance only of grounding 1 with Fateweaver there. Eldar does not have enough shots....unless they are willing to risk their troops contributing to their offense.
2. A one-man psychic wrecking machine. With Terrify and Hallucination (and to a degree, Puppet Master), he is the guy that will force the space elves to play a little more conservatively.
3. Terrify + Assault = really bad news for the Eldar.
4. Hallucination can really screw with the seer council.
5. Heldrakes = dead jetbikes.
6. Black Mace = a work-around for the re-rollable shenanigans. Now it's take a Toughness test or be removed from the game. Black Mace + Terrify = extremely bad news for Eldar.
7. Daemons have their own re-rollable 2++ shenanigans.
8. Board control. With 6 flyers and super-mobility, daemons should be able to control where the space elves will be. Positional Dominance - the control of the Movement Phase - will be a key strategy of Daemons.
9. Daemons have got 2 Eternal Warriors (Be'lakor + Iron Arm on Fateweaver) and a 3rd unit with re-rollable 2++. Insta-death from the wraithknights won't be as big a deal, especially since daemons are going 1st.
10. With the heldrake and a potential 48" of shooting from the FMC's, daemons should be able to get to the Eldar troops almost anywhere....and that will in essence be my strategy.
Eldar:
Top 10 Reasons Why Eldar Will Win.
1. Eldar are going 2nd in an objectives game. 'nuff said.
2. Re-rollable 2+ is a b*otch. My only reliable way of killing his seer council is in Assault, and that is only if I can get Terrify off.
3. Fortune + Runes of Warding means that the seer council is denying psychic powers on a re-rollable 3+.
4. Eldar mobility. Eldar (and necrons) are truly the masters of the Movement phase. Even their monstrous creatures are pretty darn fast.
5. Any MC that cannot wipe out the seer council in combat is basically dead the next turn (unless it's got a re-rollable 2++ as well). Hit-&-Run followed by shooting and assault will make damn sure of that.
6. Eldar psychic powers. Besides Fortune, they've got Doom, Mind War with a LD advantage, Renewer to heal wounds on the wraithknights and Conceal/Reveal to take away Shroud/Invisibility from Be'lakor.
7. Wraithknights will make daemons play a little more cautiously with their potential to insta-kill 2 key daemons - the Black Mace Daemon Prince (who can be 3++ maximum) and the Grimoire DP itself. They can control the movement of the Daemons to a degree.
8. 5 highly mobile troops vs 3 slow troops (+ the Portaglyph). The Portaglyph can easily be 1-shotted by a wraithknight. Fortunately we are not playing Big Guns as well!
9. Eldar does have the firepower to reliably ground 1 FMC a turn, especially if their troops contribute. Not counting the jetbike troops, they've got the seer council, 3 wraithknights, vemon and the warriors. Any Daemon FMC that is grounded (and without 2++) is practically dead, especially if they are within assault range of the seer council.
10. Did I mention that Eldar is going 2nd in an objectives game? Well, that's got to be worth 2 spots on the Top 10. They could lose the seer council and the wraithknights and still win the game because of this!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jathomas2013 wrote: having used wraithknights against FMC circus it is disgusting. I think it'll be a draw but the Wraithknights will be far more a problem than people think
Actually, my plan is to ignore his wraithknights unless they are foolish enough to move into the assault range of my FMC's. And then it is Terrify and death by sweeping advance.
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: Black mace and Belakor are good counters to the wraithknights (assuming the Knights don't stay inside area terrain and get to swing first). The CSM prince's powers are illegal though, he needs at least one Tzeentch. 2 guided wraith knights plus a third unguided could give the princes trouble even if they stay in the air. 5 Reveals will be useful for dropping invisibility or Belakor's shrouding, on the other hand if Belakor ever gets Terrify off on the council a couple FMCs could probably sweep them. I don't see many troops living through the battle on either side, interested to see how it plays out.
My bad. Thanks for spotting that. I haven't played the CSMDP in quite a while. Fortunately, his 3rd power didn't matter in this game. I never used it.
Yeah, basically all game, Grant was guiding his wraithknights.
herpguy wrote: This is a tough one. I think people are far underestimating Wraithknights. They are only 240 points and Daemons are going to have to devote tons of points to take one down. Plus they have 2 S10 AP2 guns, it is ridiculous...
Yeah wraithkights really aren't that incredibly hard to kill. As said previously Belakor can flatten them. S10 AP2 is great until you realise most of the daemons heavy hitters are FMC's so aren't going to be hit to often. I personally believe that 3 wraithkights are more of a liability especially against this daemon list. I can't see them accomplishing a lot and seem like a large point sink on something that won't realistically earn its cost back and has no strategic relevance.
Personally, I don't see them as a liability at all. They are actually very good and will force me to play a little more conservatively.
Naw wrote: Can you enlighten me on this re-rollable 2++ drama? Did GW come to their senses and FAQ it?
This is an FAQ only for the tournaments that utilize the BAO format. It was done via a poll through emails by attendees who voted to change the 2++ rerollable to the second roll being no better than a 4++. Since Jy2 and GTA both play in a lot of these tournaments they tend to use the FAQs in their batreps.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/27 23:32:25
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2013/12/27 23:49:14
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
herpguy wrote: This is a tough one. I think people are far underestimating Wraithknights. They are only 240 points and Daemons are going to have to devote tons of points to take one down. Plus they have 2 S10 AP2 guns, it is ridiculous...
Yeah wraithkights really aren't that incredibly hard to kill. As said previously Belakor can flatten them. S10 AP2 is great until you realise most of the daemons heavy hitters are FMC's so aren't going to be hit to often. I personally believe that 3 wraithkights are more of a liability especially against this daemon list. I can't see them accomplishing a lot and seem like a large point sink on something that won't realistically earn its cost back and has no strategic relevance.
Personally, I don't see them as a liability at all. They are actually very good and will force me to play a little more conservatively.
But I will still ignore them nonetheless.
Meh perhaps liability is the wrong word. Sure their killy and certainly influence the way an opponent will play against a list. I just see riptide syndrome here. A metric fukc tonne of expensive MC's which have no actual strategic relevance and CAN realistically be ignored and end up doing very little. Sure against an unprepared player (and potentially a prepared one) they have the ability to be devastating but as you have said ignoring them, tying them up with worthless units makes them a points tax in a competitive environment.
Of course you never know, now that I've said this they will probably rock up and wipe the table.
2013/12/28 02:12:20
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
I'm going with Daemons. When I played them against my O'Vesastar, they bullied me......... lol jk. I got killed, and it wasn't even the most competitive build. I have also played against a different Seer Council, I did not find it nearly as difficult as jy2's Daemons. That might be a reflection on skill too, but both jy2 and ImotekhtheStormlord are great players.
Gotta go with dem Daemons!
2013/12/28 08:08:36
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
Commander_Farsight wrote: I'm going with Daemons. When I played them against my O'Vesastar, they bullied me......... lol jk. I got killed, and it wasn't even the most competitive build. I have also played against a different Seer Council, I did not find it nearly as difficult as jy2's Daemons. That might be a reflection on skill too, but both jy2 and ImotekhtheStormlord are great players.
Gotta go with dem Daemons!
To be fair Grant is really good with his seer council. I think it will be close but jy2 gets it.
2013/12/28 16:03:46
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
I think Daemons will take it, plenty of nastiness there. A couple of questions,
1) Be'lakor being Warlord, are you not very much at the mercy of the warp storm? I guess you have Fatey's single re-roll but still..
2) Is Black Mace DP that good? I've never actually run one, but the idea of having to give up one psychic power to the not so great CSM Tzeentch is unappealing...I wonder if having Be'lakor in the CSM attachment instead then you could run a tooled up DP (slaanesh for Lash?) or a LoC in the CD attachment
3) Is the hell-drake bale-flamer or hades autocannon? I was thinking about running a similar list and have been leaning towards the autocannon as I normally struggle against tanks, and you can get plenty of anti-infantry firepower from other sources...
Just my thoughts, looking forward to seeing how the Batrep goes.
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2013/12/28 16:35:43
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's NEW Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor
This is an FAQ only for the tournaments that utilize the BAO format. It was done via a poll through emails by attendees who voted to change the 2++ rerollable to the second roll being no better than a 4++. Since Jy2 and GTA both play in a lot of these tournaments they tend to use the FAQs in their batreps.
Right. This game was played before all of that. Thus, we played the re-rollable 2++'s as 2+/2+ instead of 2+/4+.
BaconUprising wrote: Meh perhaps liability is the wrong word. Sure their killy and certainly influence the way an opponent will play against a list. I just see riptide syndrome here. A metric fukc tonne of expensive MC's which have no actual strategic relevance and CAN realistically be ignored and end up doing very little. Sure against an unprepared player (and potentially a prepared one) they have the ability to be devastating but as you have said ignoring them, tying them up with worthless units makes them a points tax in a competitive environment.
Of course you never know, now that I've said this they will probably rock up and wipe the table.
Wraithknights are excellent units for board control, especially when backed up by the other WK's or the seer council. With the seer council there, he doesn't really need to fear much. He can actually play the WK as aggressively as he wants. Even if I were to assault them, he can then counter-assault with his seer council and other WK's. It'll probably end up being a trade-off, but then, his 240-lb WK's are much cheaper than my 300+ bloated FMC's. And then there's the chance that they can insta-kill some of my FMC's as well. Meanwhile, as they advance, it would force me to keep my troops away from any objectives close to them, thus giving me fewer options and as a result, a lot less flexibility. Sometimes, the impact of a unit is not necessarily in how much they can kill but rather, how much they can impact the way your opponent plays. Fortunately for me, my opponent doesn't play them very aggressively in this game but rather, like timid mice instead of the fearless undead that they were supposed to be.
Mainly, WK's are an excellent Take-All-Comer's unit in a TAC army that was designed to fight any army and not just mine.
Commander_Farsight wrote: I'm going with Daemons. When I played them against my O'Vesastar, they bullied me......... lol jk. I got killed, and it wasn't even the most competitive build. I have also played against a different Seer Council, I did not find it nearly as difficult as jy2's Daemons. That might be a reflection on skill too, but both jy2 and ImotekhtheStormlord are great players.
Gotta go with dem Daemons!
In your opponent's defense, I don't believe he ever got Fortune against you or me. Playing against the seer council with Fortune is a whole different ballgame.
CaptainJay wrote: I think Daemons will take it, plenty of nastiness there. A couple of questions,
1) Be'lakor being Warlord, are you not very much at the mercy of the warp storm? I guess you have Fatey's single re-roll but still..
2) Is Black Mace DP that good? I've never actually run one, but the idea of having to give up one psychic power to the not so great CSM Tzeentch is unappealing...I wonder if having Be'lakor in the CSM attachment instead then you could run a tooled up DP (slaanesh for Lash?) or a LoC in the CD attachment
3) Is the hell-drake bale-flamer or hades autocannon? I was thinking about running a similar list and have been leaning towards the autocannon as I normally struggle against tanks, and you can get plenty of anti-infantry firepower from other sources...
Just my thoughts, looking forward to seeing how the Batrep goes.
1. I'm somewhat concerned, but this is an experimental list (and the 1st time I am playing it). I'm willing to take the chance. Fatey's single re-roll can help here, that is, if he doesn't blow it on a failed Grimoire.
2. The Black Mace DP is a pure beatstick. There is practically no one that he can't best in combat. He is also great against Horde armies with the number of attacks he has and the forced Toughness tests caused by his weapon. However, you do have to pick your battles carefully. He is also a finesse unit so you do have to play him somewhat carefully. One of my favorites is to charge him into a blob squad and watch him go-to-town on them (not that I've experienced it).
Be'lakor as an allied CSM detachment works too. In such a build, I would run a Lord of Change is my 2nd Daemon HQ. The Fatey/LoC/Be'lakor would actually be my normal build. Fatey/Be'lakor/CSMDP is more of an experimental build that I am trying out.
3. I always run my heldrakes with the baleflamer....unless if I'm running 3 of them.
If you were to run a Daemons list where you weren't testing, and it was the most competitive build you felt like you could make, what variation of the army would you run? FMC spam, etc.
Oh, and very true on the fortune thing, I seized in the game and then took out 3/4 of it with all of the O'Vesastars shooting, and then on turn 5 promptly lost the game because of objectives, lol. The council itself was still nasty though. Provided this was before I remembered that I have the Talisman sooo, it might have been a win for me if I had used it, and I got the rolls like at the beginning of our game a few weeks ago
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/28 18:59:43
2013/12/28 20:21:47
Subject: 2K Competitive - Grant Theft Auto's Seer Council Deldar vs Jy2's FMC Daemons w/Be'lakor (Turn 2 Up)
The 2 strongest daemon builds currently in tournament play are FMC-spam daemons (with a CSMDP + Heldrake allies) and probably a Dog-rush/Screamerstar type of list.
But FMC-spam really isn't my style. I am running it here as an experimentation, but I don't normally run FMC-spam. Rather, my lists will probably include FMC's, soulgrinders and 1 fast attack - either flesh hounds, seekers or screamers. Then my fun list will be my Herald-hammer daemons with Heralds and 3 different FA units.
Yeah, a good alpha-strike can potentially cripple the seer council and the O'vesa-star can definitely hit very hard. But the thing that usually wins games for Eldar (and Necrons) are their super-fast troops in objectives-based games. That is something you always have to keep in mind when playing against Eldar.
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