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Bah... figured out what happened. I was using Hamulator incorrectly. I plugged everything into the fantasy side and forgot that S4 reduces saves by 1.

So make that 5 dead MEQs instead of TEQ. Admittedly less impressive.

Railguns wrote:If you want Genestealers to fight Orks, just give them toxin sacs. The I bonus that furious charge grants you is redundant, and the 3+ to wound for one turn is worse than a rerollable 4+(with possible new rends) every round. It's really, really good.

What? I don't get exactly what you are getting at with this. Maybe if you run the math by me I'll get it. The I bonus that furious charge grants is a bit redundant on such high Init. models, for sure, but the +1 S on the charge I find more useful than toxin. Adrenal, coupled with their rending, can really help whittle down tough units like nobz, or even allow them to reliably wreck trukks or battlewagons in CC. Of course,

Edit: Nevermind, I had forgotten that the CC poisoned attacks of equal or higher S get to reroll failed to-wounds. You are definitely right about this one, for killing orks anyway. Rending skipping armor saves is a blessing for any CC battle, especially since removing the Broodlord's power attacks.

Gornall wrote:So make that 5 dead MEQs instead of TEQ. Admittedly less impressive.

Definatly less impressive. However 5 Terminators or 10 MEQ with PF cost about 200 points.
25 TS/AG Gargoyles also cost 200 points and on the charge (including shooting) will kill 4.51 TEQ or 9.03 MEQ before they can strike back which does seem quite good to me.

So more is better. And mathhammer seems to prove that the little guys got a huge bonus when operating in their perspective fields...Excellent.

I hate that the Hormie upgrades are 2 points apiece rather than the 1 point for Termies/Gargoyles. I guess double the attacks takes bigger glands.

I think it's to make the gargoyles more viable since hormagaunts are almost as fast and scoring.

Yeah, hormies are just more expensive in general. It's too bad, because aesthetically I prefer them to termagaunts. My last game not a single one of them was able to make it where I wanted them to go. Part of that is because I am still getting used to the new Synapse / Instinctive Behavior rules. I'm used to them clustering around warriors and other synapse creatures, but now they don't have to... the rage special rule for outside synapse could cause problems but for the most part my hormies are a throw-away assault unit anyway so it doesn't matter if they all-out charge. But toughness 3 is a bit fragile for no longer being Beasts. I miss my hormagaunt blitzes! No more 6" move, up to 6" run, 12" assault, not to mention 3" assault range....

ED209 wrote:I think the answer to Ork horde is Biovore.

Actually, I think Biovores are an all-around solid unit. As I said before, I think they pair nicely with Hive Guards against mech. The fact that they can now move and fire is huge. You can keep them tucked into your main mass and not leave them hanging out to dry in the backfield. I dunno that I'd call Biovores "core", but I do think they're solid for competitive gaming in the right army.

gorgon wrote:

ED209 wrote:I think the answer to Ork horde is Biovore.

Actually, I think Biovores are an all-around solid unit. As I said before, I think they pair nicely with Hive Guards against mech. The fact that they can now move and fire is huge. You can keep them tucked into your main mass and not leave them hanging out to dry in the backfield. I dunno that I'd call Biovores "core", but I do think they're solid for competitive gaming in the right army.

Yes, fire and move is also a major Buff for them. My problem with them now is the best number to use, because the multiple barrage weapons rule lower the effect of brood which got more than one biovore. So far I think fill every heavy solt left with one biovore is a good deal.

You don't have to run Hormagaunts with any upgrades.

At their core they are quicker, have more attacks, and higher initiative then a standard Gaunt for only a point more. You probably don't want to upgrade Termagaunts outside of non-tervigon lists (and lets face it, there are no Termagaunts without a Tervigon in a competitive list).

Are Hormagaunts "better" with the upgrade, sure, but they don't need the upgrade to be effective. You still have a very fast scoring unit that can get infantry cover and if they assault you get 3 re-rollable 1's attacks each.

I agree on Biovores, I think they have their place, but the supreme answer to Orks is a massive amout of poison gaunts. Either as part of a Tervigon Gaunt Screen, or a massive horde all it's own. All you do is set it up in such a way that Orks have to assault you if they want to objectives, sense most Ork players are Nob happy (as they should be) you just pile the wounds on any unit foolish enough to assault you. "Oh you have 20 Powerclaw attacks, I have 50 guys in combat, re-rolling to hits from my Hive Tyrant, and wounding you on 4's regardless of if you are bikerz or not."

I have two boxes of Gaunts waiting to have arms stuck on them so have been performing some Mathhammer on the options comparing units on points invested to see which is better?

20 TS Hormies, 20 TS/AG Gargoyles, 16 Devil-Gaunts or 26 TS Termagants or 11 Genestealers

I included Toxic Termagants as I was thinking of outflanking a unit with Hive Commander.

One round of Shooting & Assault
VS .. T-HG . .TA-Gar .Dev-G . T-TG . .GeneS
MEQ . 05.83 . 07.22 . 05.78 . 06.50 . 06.11
GEQ . 17.50 . 17.78 . 16.00 . 21.67 . 11.00
TEQ . 02.92 . 03.61 . 02.89 . 03.25 . 04.89
Ork . 14.58 . 18.89 . 14.44 . 17.33 . 09.78

Having a gun really helps especially with Fleshborer ignoring Ork and GEQ saves. Not sure how likely Termagants are to get the charge though.

Getting Assaulted/Second Round
VS .. T-HG . .TA-Gar .Dev-G . T-TG . .GeneS
MEQ . 03.89 . 02.22 . 00.89 . 02.17 . 04.07
GEQ . 11.67 . 05.56 . 02.67 . 06.50 . 07.33
TEQ . 01.94 . 01.11 . 00.44 . 01.08 . 03.26
Ork . 09.72 . 05.56 . 02.22 . 05.42 . 06.52

HG's get the advantage now with there second attack and higher Initiative. Still not sure it is enough to make me want to use them though.

Lyracian wrote:I have two boxes of Gaunts waiting to have arms stuck on them so have been performing some Mathhammer on the options comparing units on points invested to see which is better?

20 TS Hormies, 20 TS/AG Gargoyles, 16 Devil-Gaunts or 26 TS Termagants or 11 Genestealers

It's not genestealers. I tried running an updated Stealer Shock list a couple times last night. The loss of extended carapace is crippling, particularly against a Lash list - flamers are just too dangerous for 14 (or 17 with poison!) point models.

I suggest magnets; it's minorly annoying inserting that many magnets into arms, but about $0.21 per model of magnets negates the need for an extra $2 'gaunt, and it's faster than painting two 'gaunts.

Aduro wrote:The Thorax Swarm weapons that the T-Fex has, and Tyrant can purchase, are specifically allowed to be fired in addition to their other weapons.

I had missed that. Thanks for clearing that up.

Orks have lootas and lootas are definitely a problem for the necromancer nids...

Biovores can be a valid answer. Remember guys that even in taking lots of hive guard, lots of gants, tervigons and t-fexes. You still have points to spend and you still have every slot open. I am thinking more and more about a unit of three biovores instead of my outflanking genestealers. that can really help versus 30+ lootas, and will help thin out gant screens as well in the mirror match.

If you want to phalanx up hard core, with no enveloping element, and you want to eschew close combat altogether and just tarpit/attrition with gants... then something like this would be fantastic...

tervigon
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
30x termagants
30x termagants
tervigon
4x spore mines
t-fex with rc
t-fex with rc
3x biovores

I have been running my hive guard and termagants in multiples of the number of tervigons i have for the purposes of catalyst. Thats why it isn't more split up. If i am facing three thunderfire cannons I want FNP on every gant unit. If I'm facing hydras and autocannon HWS I want FNP on EVERY hive guard. If I'm facing long fangs I want FNP on every tervigon.

But as you see here, you have enough points leftover after you've covered your anti-tank base to field some good carpet bombing anti-horde.

Make sure that you deploy your biovores in LOS if you plan to leave them out of synapse. If they lurk and have no LOS they won't get to fire, even though they have barrage weapons. If you are playing a list like this, You won't need to worry about it, the HQ tervigon can just hang out and babysit and you can deploy them out of LOS.

I was reading the nid book last night. I seem to have noticed that termagaunst do not have fleet stated in their unit descruption. Is this true? Did I miss something?

Yup, not all critters get fleet in the new codex. Sad, really, but in reality how often do you expect to use it with termigaunts?

tervigon
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
30x termagants
30x termagants
tervigon
4x spore mines
t-fex with rc
t-fex with rc
3x biovores

Unlike some of your previous lists, this doesn't strike to me as scary at all. You don't have any real close combat units, your army is slow as heck and in addition to the Biovores shooting your entire ranged power consists of 2x S10 AP4 and 8x S8 AP4 hits per turn (within 24" which is a short to medium distance). Since it's only 4 units total firing at a maximum of 4 targets, your entire shooting phase is almost as succesful as it can be if you can shake or stun 2 vehicles. That's just not all that good, especially when you don't even have a close combat phase.

Therion wrote:

tervigon
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
30x termagants
30x termagants
tervigon
4x spore mines
t-fex with rc
t-fex with rc
3x biovores

Unlike some of your previous lists, this doesn't strike to me as scary at all. You don't have any real close combat units, your army is slow as heck and in addition to the Biovores shooting your entire ranged power consists of 2x S10 AP4 and 8x S8 AP4 hits per turn (within 24" which is a short to medium distance). Since it's only 4 units total firing at a maximum of 4 targets, your entire shooting phase is almost as succesful as it can be if you can shake or stun 2 vehicles. That's just not all that good, especially when you don't even have a close combat phase.

Well, I do have much more close combat than a "shooting only" army. Crushing claw tervigons and even t-fexes destroy non power fisted space marines, and 30x termagants with furious charge and poison don't really lose to many infantry units or monstrous creatures out there... but i get your point. I don't have any CC units that can fight against other dedicated CC units.

One of my real problems with the nid dex, is that outside of swarmlord, they don't really have a real CC threat. CC has escalated to the point of insanity in 40k, thunderhammer terminators, complex nob bikers, complex bloodcrusher units with skulltaker, complex thunderwolf cavalry with a thunderhammer and thunderhammer lord and plenty of storm shields. These units just absolutely NUKE anything they fight, charging them with a hive tyrant is cute, bonesword warriors just detonate on contact, I'm either going to be running a swarmlord with 2 guard and a FNP caddy, or I think I'll leave the CC to the units that have invulnerable saves and strength 8. A unit of 30 gants can attrition a unit down, and i can keep plugging in new gant units until the threat is over. That would be how this list handled an aggressive opponent. Now this probably isn't the list I'll be running. First of all, I'm going to need at least 120 painted termagants if I'm going to bring this list to a tourney. That will impact my finish times, and this list is not designed to score massacre victories either. But what it can do, is take over table center, and just not move, while peppering fast movers...

To get massacres, and to get 7 turn games in, I think I am looking at a max of one termagant screen and one tervigon. i will probably make swarmlord fit a 1750, and I'll just come out my opponent harder than a gant farm would. I still need mass hive guard, and still need t-fexes, although a brood of FNP screamer killers is currently tantalizing me for land raider hunting.

Now when our gaming group uses the 'safeword' and we dial back our lists, then the mid-tier nid CC comes back into the mix. But you have to prepared to fight the deathstars in a tourney setting, and every point spent on a cc upgrade for a unit that can't beat or even score a reasonable amount of wounds on a death star is going to weaken your overall list.

So I guess i kind of agree with you.... i just think there is only one CC answer for nids. I've tried warriors and tried genestealers, i've tried hive tyrants... they don't really do it to the units that need it done to.

Mahu wrote:You don't have to run Hormagaunts with any upgrades.

At their core they are quicker, have more attacks, and higher initiative then a standard Gaunt for only a point more. You probably don't want to upgrade Termagaunts outside of non-tervigon lists (and lets face it, there are no Termagaunts without a Tervigon in a competitive list).

Are Hormagaunts "better" with the upgrade, sure, but they don't need the upgrade to be effective. You still have a very fast scoring unit that can get infantry cover and if they assault you get 3 re-rollable 1's attacks each.

I like the Toxin Sacs upgrade for them. It's pretty much +1 Str, but better, and allows them to take on anything no matter how big it is. If your area is overloaded with Eldar, then Adrenals would be nice instead, to let you strike before the Aspect Warriors. I have fewish Eldar in my area so I just gave my Tonic Sacs.

I like 'stealers now. Mine are 8 pts cheaper per stealer on average and the only negatives for them is loss of 4+ and no grenades.

I expect the 1pt PE to go away so it doesn't shock me. In my group I face enough HB's and HF's that the 4+ save rarely helped out anyway. One guy like to drop a dual HF dreadnaught in a pod. If he doesn't scatter too far off one entire brood of 12 was obliterated before it got to do anything, 4+ save or not.

I very rarely outflanked as my opponents would set up a perimeter more or less denying me any chance of hell of ever getting into assault range, even on the flanks.

Loss of grenades MIGHT hurt. Worst comes to worst I just won't assault units in cover that are large in size.

Shep wrote:

Well, I do have much more close combat than a "shooting only" army. Crushing claw tervigons and even t-fexes destroy non power fisted space marines, and 30x termagants with furious charge and poison don't really lose to many infantry units or monstrous creatures out there... but i get your point. I don't have any CC units that can fight against other dedicated CC units.

One of my real problems with the nid dex, is that outside of swarmlord, they don't really have a real CC threat. CC has escalated to the point of insanity in 40k, thunderhammer terminators, complex nob bikers, complex bloodcrusher units with skulltaker, complex thunderwolf cavalry with a thunderhammer and thunderhammer lord and plenty of storm shields. These units just absolutely NUKE anything they fight, charging them with a hive tyrant is cute, bonesword warriors just detonate on contact, I'm either going to be running a swarmlord with 2 guard and a FNP caddy, or I think I'll leave the CC to the units that have invulnerable saves and strength 8. A unit of 30 gants can attrition a unit down, and i can keep plugging in new gant units until the threat is over. That would be how this list handled an aggressive opponent. Now this probably isn't the list I'll be running. First of all, I'm going to need at least 120 painted termagants if I'm going to bring this list to a tourney. That will impact my finish times, and this list is not designed to score massacre victories either. But what it can do, is take over table center, and just not move, while peppering fast movers...

Only an idea here : what about that Doomthrope? by not drop it with a spore ,hide it behind Tervigon or Tyrannofex or sth. big enough could cover it,when those hard hitters come to assault they have to move into the 6" range(unless they can fleet) ,then they will be sucked by Doom and next round again, no matter they are in CC or not. This may be a too defensive method ,but with a formation of Termagant and Tervigon could be useful ,beside by doing so we could free 310pts from swarmlord,then buy sth. nice, like biovore,genestealers(a extra broodlord in the formation will also help the life sucker),gargoyles, another tervigon etc.

So I guess i kind of agree with you.... i just think there is only one CC answer for nids. I've tried warriors and tried genestealers, i've tried hive tyrants... they don't really do it to the units that need it done to.

Well, although not having played against any of the new Nid variants, I'd be willing to guess that the very list you're talking about is the strongest/most flexible one currently out there. Swarmlord and his guard combined with the Hive Guard, maybe a pod of Zoanthropes, the T-fexes and a Tervigon and Termagants.

i dunno about you guys but holy gak. Gargoyles are the bomb. Im gonna run them with both toxin sacs and adrenal glands. Better pray those rhinos arent opened up. GOTT STRAFE ULTRAMAR

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:i dunno about you guys but holy gak. Gargoyles are the bomb. Im gonna run them with both toxin sacs and adrenal glands. Better pray those rhinos arent opened up. GOTT STRAFE ULTRAMAR

Even better, suround all the exits with Gargoles ,and then open the rhino softly

I wasn't keen on Mawlocs, but I'm giving thought to an alpha strike attack with three of them burying on turn 1 to jump out on turn 2 as Flyrant, a load of Shrikes with Parasite, Gargoyles and a Harpy hit the enemy lines and present too many targets. Main problem is that the whole play is totally broadcast, necessitating some sort of sucker punch. Perhaps infil Stealers or even Ymgarls to help with herding? Zoey spam in pods might be good, to guarantee one of them arrives turn 2 as well.

lindsay40k wrote:I wasn't keen on Mawlocs, but I'm giving thought to an alpha strike attack with three of them burying on turn 1 to jump out on turn 2 as Flyrant, a load of Shrikes with Parasite, Gargoyles and a Harpy hit the enemy lines and present too many targets. Main problem is that the whole play is totally broadcast, necessitating some sort of sucker punch. Perhaps infil Stealers or even Ymgarls to help with herding? Zoey spam in pods might be good, to guarantee one of them arrives turn 2 as well.

If the enemy cannot move out of the way they are destroyed. I can think of some very interesting shepherding tactics against mech players who like to deploy in a big wall.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:I wasn't keen on Mawlocs, but I'm giving thought to an alpha strike attack with three of them burying on turn 1 to jump out on turn 2 as Flyrant, a load of Shrikes with Parasite, Gargoyles and a Harpy hit the enemy lines and present too many targets. Main problem is that the whole play is totally broadcast, necessitating some sort of sucker punch. Perhaps infil Stealers or even Ymgarls to help with herding? Zoey spam in pods might be good, to guarantee one of them arrives turn 2 as well.

If the enemy cannot move out of the way they are destroyed. I can think of some very interesting shepherding tactics against mech players who like to deploy in a big wall.

If any unit cannot more out of the way, they are destroyed... my biggest fear with this tactic is scattering under another Mawloc and it betting OHKO'd due to it's large base not being able to get clear

Only way to guarantee this not happening is for a Lictor to arrive the turn before in the vicinity of where you intend to strike and still not be dead when you pop up, and this broadcasts the play even more obviously.

Perhaps an Apocalypse formation will present a less risky way of pulling his off, with like a Barrage of Mawlocs

Edit: Hmm, if you can run a Lictor near to a TH termie squad and tarpit them with Gaunts whilst a Mawloc digs, assuming no counter-charge in the Marine turn you've basically got yourself a bunch of guaranteed kills as the 'no moving within 1" rule' will force the Termies and Gaunts to stay locked together - assuming any Gaunts survive the burst. Not easy to setup, but a handy way to get past extreme saving throws. And of course, that many Gaunts will probably get a load of Termie kills anyway if souped-up by a Tervigon...

The only models/units that move from a mawlok deep strike are those that were hit with the template. Take this theoretical siituation. You have a circle of chimeras. Two layers thick. Mawlok asplodes up into the middle of it. Only the chimeras on the inner layer are hit by the template, but they cannot clear 1 inch without landing on top of the other chimeras. All those chimeras are now dead.

What happens to the models inside them?

Eaten.