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Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Autoguns are probably equivalent to the 7.62mm Nato rifles like the SLR with the lasgun being just a little more powerful, and probably more accurate at range.

An autogun has to be able to stop things like Orks, so it's more likely the equal to big game rifles in power. The very lowest it could feasibly be would be around what the BAR had, which is still a third again more energy than the ammo the SLR uses, though of course the rounds themselves would be more advanced, with greater armor-piercing and stopping power. Lasguns have as much punch, only without the issue of a round to be slowed by air-resistance or pulled by gravity, or travel time in which the target could move elsewhere, or the physical punch of a slug that can be softened and distributed by armor; it's a beam that can blow holes in metal or rock, so conventional body armor wouldn't stand up to it any better than a sheet of paper would.

In terms of training we can reasonably assume that Guardsmen of the Cadian/Catachan type have training as good as the best of Earth's military but with higher morale as a result of being hardened against enemies that the rest of us only see in nightmares. Veterans would be equivalent to the Gurkhas/SEALs/British Marines.

The average Guardsman has had as much training as modern Spec Ops by the time he reaches combat, and has gone through as rigorous a selection process to even get that far. A Cadian has had all that a dozen times over before he's even old enough to enter the military proper. A stormtrooper has had as much training as a Cadian, only at a drastically higher level.

Mathematically, IG would win - the reason for the doubt in this thread: GW.

As Ogiwan pointed out, GW can't write for toffee. My biggest bugbear (and I can't find the post about lasguns, but from memory):

GW say
- A lasgun shot is 3000MJ
- A lasgun magazine contains enough energy for 60 shots
- A lasgun magazine can be recharged by leaving it in the sun.

Let's look at Earth and its sun as an example:

- 3.85x10^21 joules of energy from the sun are absorbed by the lands, oceans and atmosphere every year. I'm going to ignore the atmosphere, because I don't know the split between surface and atmosphere absorption; this will skew the figures in the lasgun's favour.
- The Earth's surface is circa 5.1x10^14 m^2
- If my maths is right, that is just over 7.5MJ per square metre per year.
- I can only guess at the area of a lasgun mag, but if 0.2m by 0.1m, that is 0.02m^2, so you're looking at 150MJ per year, or 1/20th of a lasgun shot. So that is 1200 years to recharge a lasgun mag to full capacity.

This is assuming that it is a perfect system (i.e. no energy loss to heat/entropy), the lasgun does not use any energy for peripheral functions, and as stated it assumes no energy is absorbed by the atmosphere (which is not true, so it would actually take a lot longer).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

In terms of training we can reasonably assume that Guardsmen of the Cadian/Catachan type have training as good as the best of Earth's military but with higher morale as a result of being hardened against enemies that the rest of us only see in nightmares. Veterans would be equivalent to the Gurkhas/SEALs/British Marines.

The average Guardsman has had as much training as modern Spec Ops by the time he reaches combat, and has gone through as rigorous a selection process to even get that far. A Cadian has had all that a dozen times over before he's even old enough to enter the military proper. A stormtrooper has had as much training as a Cadian, only at a drastically higher level.

I don't know what fluff you've been reading, but the majority of guardsmen regiments don't strike me as the 'best of the best'. In fact, a lot of the time they are the criminal dregs.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

In terms of training we can reasonably assume that Guardsmen of the Cadian/Catachan type have training as good as the best of Earth's military but with higher morale as a result of being hardened against enemies that the rest of us only see in nightmares. Veterans would be equivalent to the Gurkhas/SEALs/British Marines.

The average Guardsman has had as much training as modern Spec Ops by the time he reaches combat, and has gone through as rigorous a selection process to even get that far. A Cadian has had all that a dozen times over before he's even old enough to enter the military proper. A stormtrooper has had as much training as a Cadian, only at a drastically higher level.

I don't know what fluff you've been reading, but the majority of guardsmen regiments don't strike me as the 'best of the best'. In fact, a lot of the time they are the criminal dregs.

"Criminal dregs", as you so nicely put it, are often the best of the best, having fought in gang wars their entire lives...

Emperors Faithful wrote:
I don't know what fluff you've been reading, but the majority of guardsmen regiments don't strike me as the 'best of the best'. In fact, a lot of the time they are the criminal dregs.

Here are some quotes: "Cadians are widely regarded as the best troops in the Imperium"
And: "Whenever required, the best soldiers in a PDF are transferred into the Imperial Guard, receiving further training as they are shipped to their destined location elsewhere in the galaxy."
Mordians: "This environment has bred a regimental system dedicated to the chain of command and an iron discipline at all levels."
Krieg: "Most who join generally do so out of a sense of duty and as a way to atone for the previous rebellion against the Emperor. Officers ranks are difficult to obtain, as with certain regiments of the Death Korps one must work his or her way up the ranks from the bottom."
Catachan: "They have the well-deserved reputation of being the deadliest experts of jungle warfare in the galaxy. Extremely resourceful and uncompromising warriors, they are deadly up close with their specialised close combat blades or from ambush with their lasguns."

So your quote about "lot of the time they are the criminal dregs" don't drink water. I would say the only ones I read are from criminals are Armageddon Steel Legionaries who where diverted from local gangs ( because their planet was assaulted by 1 Chaos and 2 Ork invasions ).
Guard that in fact have criminals are Penal Legions, other Guard units don't implement this rule. To become Guardsman you must first go trough PDF, most of them who start that life finish off with his previous and start over...

Lasgun vs. Assault Rifle

- Lasgun: tougher, quieter, more accurate, potentially deadlier (with stopping power depending on energy setting), more reliable (immune to jamming, and no moving components), blessed with a far greater ammunition capacity and longer-ranged (with far better ballistic properties on most battlefields). Also cheap to produce, easy to maintain and easy to resupply (no need for ammunition reserves, only replacements), but these factors are irrelevant if we're talking about a staged battle.
- Assault Rifle: lighter (on average), capable of multiple firing modes, more manoeuvrable in tight confines, more versatile (often able to mount accessories).

Advantage Lasgun.


Flak Armour vs. Interceptor Body Armour

- Flak Armour: protective against low-velocity bullets, explosives, shrapnel and heat or energy-based weaponry, with better overall coverage.
- Interceptor Body Armour: more effective against kinetic impacts (can partially or completely counter low-to-medium velocity 9mm bullets), heat-resistant, and protective against explosives and shrapnel.

Even.


Imperial Guardsman vs. U.S. Army Soldier

- Imperial Guardsman: physically larger, mentally and psychologically tougher, impartial to casualties, religiously-driven and better-trained (remember that Guardsmen are already the cream of the crop).
- U.S. Army Soldier: more tactically dynamic, better individual initiative, more flexible chain-of-command.

Advantage Guardsman.

Brother Coa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
I don't know what fluff you've been reading, but the majority of guardsmen regiments don't strike me as the 'best of the best'. In fact, a lot of the time they are the criminal dregs.

Here are some quotes: "Cadians are widely regarded as the best troops in the Imperium"
And: "Whenever required, the best soldiers in a PDF are transferred into the Imperial Guard, receiving further training as they are shipped to their destined location elsewhere in the galaxy."
Mordians: "This environment has bred a regimental system dedicated to the chain of command and an iron discipline at all levels."
Krieg: "Most who join generally do so out of a sense of duty and as a way to atone for the previous rebellion against the Emperor. Officers ranks are difficult to obtain, as with certain regiments of the Death Korps one must work his or her way up the ranks from the bottom."
Catachan: "They have the well-deserved reputation of being the deadliest experts of jungle warfare in the galaxy. Extremely resourceful and uncompromising warriors, they are deadly up close with their specialised close combat blades or from ambush with their lasguns."

Well of course looking at the top regiments in the galaxy is going to support the view the Guardsmen are elite soldiers one and all. What about the countless regiments that have no such credence? The ones that tend to die feebly and are generally stomped underfoot until the Space Marines arrive.

So your quote about "lot of the time they are the criminal dregs" don't drink water. I would say the only ones I read are from criminals are Armageddon Steel Legionaries who where diverted from local gangs ( because their planet was assaulted by 1 Chaos and 2 Ork invasions ).
Guard that in fact have criminals are Penal Legions, other Guard units don't implement this rule. To become Guardsman you must first go trough PDF, most of them who start that life finish off with his previous and start over...

Penal Legions tend to consist of guardsmen that have committed a crime while in the guard.

There's the Athonian Tunnel Rats for one example of IG recruited directly from gangs and the Necromundian (sp?) 18th. The Kaledon Hunters and other feudal worlds are basically just tribesmen with lasguns. Given a choice between quality and quantity an Imperial tithe is more concerned with quantity, hence the press gangs in Hive cities. Save up your hard earned coin, go for a night on the bender and next thing you know you've signed up with the Guard in the glorious service of the Emperor!

Generally, as seen from the Caiphas Cain novels, the IG are recruited from PDF units. Though often they come directly from the population, as was the case in 15 Hours. But even if we assume that they are taking the best of the PDF, what's the selection process like? The PDF will likely have never seen combat in generations, and they aren't going to be judged individually.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well of course looking at the top regiments in the galaxy is going to support the view the Guardsmen are elite soldiers one and all. What about the countless regiments that have no such credence? The ones that tend to die feebly and are generally stomped underfoot until the Space Marines arrive.

Considering we're comparing the US to the Imperial Guard, it'd make sense to take one of the "better" IG regiments. Regardless of individual opinions of the US, no one can deny that it's one of the most effective military entities in the world for all-out war. If we don't do this we could just as well compare 100 Cadians to 100 random Angolan (just as example) soldiers and watch the Imperial Guard sleep through the encounter.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Well of course looking at the top regiments in the galaxy is going to support the view the Guardsmen are elite soldiers one and all. What about the countless regiments that have no such credence? The ones that tend to die feebly and are generally stomped underfoot until the Space Marines arrive.

Such are rare since majority of the Guard use Cadian equipment and their training. And remember who are they fighting against, it's not the easy enemy...

Penal Legions tend to consist of guardsmen that have committed a crime while in the guard.

There's the Athonian Tunnel Rats for one example of IG recruited directly from gangs and the Necromundian (sp?) 18th. The Kaledon Hunters and other feudal worlds are basically just tribesmen with lasguns. Given a choice between quality and quantity an Imperial tithe is more concerned with quantity, hence the press gangs in Hive cities. Save up your hard earned coin, go for a night on the bender and next thing you know you've signed up with the Guard in the glorious service of the Emperor!

An...no. Penal Legions are mostly criminals that never went to Guard and who want some retribution in their life so they have been given a chance to atone their sins by killing the enemies of man. And no, Guard is looking toward quantity because they have no choice. If they all look toward quality, Guard Regiment would then have 2.000 - 6.000 Guardsman. And that is not much. Because they cannot produce such good equipment for everybody they produce average equipment and give them to more people ( more people you have large territory you may hold/conquer ). ANd we already have a quality - Stromtroopers.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Considering we're comparing the US to the Imperial Guard, it'd make sense to take one of the "better" IG regiments. Regardless of individual opinions of the US, no one can deny that it's one of the most effective military entities in the world for all-out war. If we don't do this we could just as well compare 100 Cadians to 100 random Angolan (just as example) soldiers and watch the Imperial Guard sleep through the encounter.

I'd say the effectiveness of the US military has more to do with its air superiority and vehicle support.

If you want to look at actual soldiers of a balls-droppingly impressive rapport then look into the Gurkhas. Those guys are insane.

Brother Coa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Well of course looking at the top regiments in the galaxy is going to support the view the Guardsmen are elite soldiers one and all. What about the countless regiments that have no such credence? The ones that tend to die feebly and are generally stomped underfoot until the Space Marines arrive.

Such are rare since majority of the Guard use Cadian equipment and their training. And remember who are they fighting against, it's not the easy enemy...

What are you talking about? Imperial Guardsmen are as common as pie. There are billions of them!

Just becuase a regiment uses standard Cadian equipment (and they don't train from birth like Cadians) doesn't make them their equal.

An...no. Penal Legions are mostly criminals that never went to Guard and who want some retribution in their life so they have been given a chance to atone their sins by killing the enemies of man.

Aha. No. Penal Legions are drawn from the Imperial Guard. Last Chancers are one of the more well known ones.

Common criminals are dealt with by their home planet.

And no, Guard is looking toward quantity because they have no choice. If they all look toward quality, Guard Regiment would then have 2.000 - 6.000 Guardsman. And that is not much. Because they cannot produce such good equipment for everybody they produce average equipment and give them to more people ( more people you have large territory you may hold/conquer ). ANd we already have a quality - Stromtroopers.

So you agree with me? The Imperial Guard is about quantity and not quality?

Emperors Faithful wrote:
What are you talking about? Imperial Guardsmen are as common as pie. There are billions of them!

Just becuase a regiment uses standard Cadian equipment (and they don't train from birth like Cadians) doesn't make them their equal.

No, but they are equal in equipment. Only difference is Cadians are trained from birth and other are trained first in planet's PDF then in Imperial Guard.

Aha. No. Penal Legions are drawn from the Imperial Guard. Last Chancers are one of the more well known ones.

Common criminals are dealt with by their home planet.

Don't troll. Here is from Lexicanum: "Penal Legions ARE Imperial Guard forces consisting entirely of convicted criminals, debtors, liberals and other social transgressors.
Crimes resulting in sentence to a Penal Legion can range from failure to return library books to murder, minor heresy, cowardice in battle, desertion, etc. By serving in the Penal Legions these individuals are given the chance of redeeming themselves in the eyes of the Emperor. Penal Legion units are formed from convicts, generally from those shipped to one of the Imperium's Penal Worlds, whose populations consist of criminals from throughout the Imperium."

Guardsman are rare in Penal Legion. They mostly draw men from prisons and prison worlds to give the chance to atone for their crimes...
They ARE Imperial Guard force, but that doesn't mean that majority of them are Imperial Guardsman.

So you agree with me? The Imperial Guard is about quantity and not quality?

Because they have no choice. Why every German solder in WW2 didn't have StG44? Because it was to expensive to be given to everyone, so they go to quantity. Witch served them well. Allies have also go to quantity, Americans just send troops ( I won't even mention Sherman "tin cans" ) until they overwhelm the Germans, Soviets to.
Guard is choosing quality, of course. But they are only focusing in that are to stormtroopers and SW squads. And because they are have to many men and not enough time or equipment available...

Brother Coa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
What are you talking about? Imperial Guardsmen are as common as pie. There are billions of them!

Just becuase a regiment uses standard Cadian equipment (and they don't train from birth like Cadians) doesn't make them their equal.

No, but they are equal in equipment. Only difference is Cadians are trained from birth and other are trained first in planet's PDF then in Imperial Guard.

OR they are conscripted straight into the Imperial Guard with only basic training. There's no requirement that they come from the PDF.

Aha. No. Penal Legions are drawn from the Imperial Guard. Last Chancers are one of the more well known ones.

Common criminals are dealt with by their home planet.

Don't troll. Here is from Lexicanum: "Penal Legions ARE Imperial Guard forces consisting entirely of convicted criminals, debtors, liberals and other social transgressors.
Crimes resulting in sentence to a Penal Legion can range from failure to return library books to murder, minor heresy, cowardice in battle, desertion, etc. By serving in the Penal Legions these individuals are given the chance of redeeming themselves in the eyes of the Emperor. Penal Legion units are formed from convicts, generally from those shipped to one of the Imperium's Penal Worlds, whose populations consist of criminals from throughout the Imperium."

Guardsman are rare in Penal Legion. They mostly draw men from prisons and prison worlds to give the chance to atone for their crimes...
They ARE Imperial Guard force, but that doesn't mean that majority of them are Imperial Guardsman.

Don't be insulting. I'm not trolling. And if I am, then so is the Imperial Guard Codex.

Imperial Codex, pg 41 wrote:
The Penal Legions are made up of the scum of the galaxy. Their ranks are drawn from Imperial Guard troops who have committed capital crimes, and had their sentences commuted to life service.

I read the rest of the page as well, nothing to suggest they are drawn from the criminal civilian populace.

So you agree with me? The Imperial Guard is about quantity and not quality?

Because they have no choice. Why every German solder in WW2 didn't have StG44? Because it was to expensive to be given to everyone, so they go to quantity. Witch served them well. Allies have also go to quantity, Americans just send troops ( I won't even mention Sherman "tin cans" ) until they overwhelm the Germans, Soviets to.
Guard is choosing quality, of course. But they are only focusing in that are to stormtroopers and SW squads. And because they are have to many men and not enough time or equipment available...

And? How does this disprove my point that Gaurdsmen regiments are not top quality?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
What are you talking about? Imperial Guardsmen are as common as pie. There are billions of them!

Just becuase a regiment uses standard Cadian equipment (and they don't train from birth like Cadians) doesn't make them their equal.

No, but they are equal in equipment. Only difference is Cadians are trained from birth and other are trained first in planet's PDF then in Imperial Guard.

OR they are conscripted straight into the Imperial Guard with only basic training. There's no requirement that they come from the PDF.

Aha. No. Penal Legions are drawn from the Imperial Guard. Last Chancers are one of the more well known ones.

Common criminals are dealt with by their home planet.

Don't troll. Here is from Lexicanum: "Penal Legions ARE Imperial Guard forces consisting entirely of convicted criminals, debtors, liberals and other social transgressors.
Crimes resulting in sentence to a Penal Legion can range from failure to return library books to murder, minor heresy, cowardice in battle, desertion, etc. By serving in the Penal Legions these individuals are given the chance of redeeming themselves in the eyes of the Emperor. Penal Legion units are formed from convicts, generally from those shipped to one of the Imperium's Penal Worlds, whose populations consist of criminals from throughout the Imperium."

Guardsman are rare in Penal Legion. They mostly draw men from prisons and prison worlds to give the chance to atone for their crimes...
They ARE Imperial Guard force, but that doesn't mean that majority of them are Imperial Guardsman.

Don't be insulting. I'm not trolling. And if I am, then so is the Imperial Guard Codex.

Imperial Codex, pg 41 wrote:
The Penal Legions are made up of the scum of the galaxy. Their ranks are drawn from Imperial Guard troops who have committed capital crimes, and had their sentences commuted to life service.

I read the rest of the page as well, nothing to suggest they are drawn from the criminal civilian populace.

So you agree with me? The Imperial Guard is about quantity and not quality?

Because they have no choice. Why every German solder in WW2 didn't have StG44? Because it was to expensive to be given to everyone, so they go to quantity. Witch served them well. Allies have also go to quantity, Americans just send troops ( I won't even mention Sherman "tin cans" ) until they overwhelm the Germans, Soviets to.
Guard is choosing quality, of course. But they are only focusing in that are to stormtroopers and SW squads. And because they are have to many men and not enough time or equipment available...

And? How does this disprove my point that Gaurdsmen regiments are not top quality?

Actually per the IG Codex, the penal legions are from guardsmen that committed crimes (page 41 IG codex), but that in no way says they were less trained. Heck in the U.S. military (and virtually any others) you sometimes get special forces that end up in prison... does that mean they were not trained for combat?

And there are even guard that are brought up just because they need numbers in an emergency... they are called conscripts (and an example is 15 hours). BUT that is not normal in either case for the guards.

The Imperium has requirements for guardsmen, and they are high enough that most worlds only send their elites from the PDF to meet their requirements on troops. As the penalty for the troops not being up to the quality required is the life of the Planetary Govenor. (as I quoted earlier in the thread from page 8 of the IG codex)

Penal legions and conscripts are rare in the Guard, they exist but they are not the normal guardsmen. So using them to comment on guardsmen would by like using a stormtrooper on the other side of the arguement to say that all guardsmen are trained at SEAL team 6 levels.

On average, a guardsman would be on the lines of a SF member in the modern military (as they were the elite of their world first), even the penal legions would be... save they are criminals. Their Veterans would be equivilent to SEAL team 6 or the like. The Stormtroopers are frankly even scarier as they are just as trained as the veterans, with better gear, and have been indoctrinated since childhood that this is what they are for .... for their dead parents... for their Emperor... for mankind.

sekerra wrote:
Actually per the IG Codex, the penal legions are from guardsmen that committed crimes (page 41 IG codex), but that in no way says they were less trained. Heck in the U.S. military (and virtually any others) you sometimes get special forces that end up in prison... does that mean they were not trained for combat?

I know. Brother Coa was saying that Penal Legionnaires were made up of common criminals.

And there are even guard that are brought up just because they need numbers in an emergency... they are called conscripts (and an example is 15 hours). BUT that is not normal in either case for the guards.

In 15 hours he was not a conscript, his induction into the Guard was a result of the tithe. His family happened to be called up.

The Imperium has requirements for guardsmen, and they are high enough that most worlds only send their elites from the PDF to meet their requirements on troops. As the penalty for the troops not being up to the quality required is the life of the Planetary Govenor. (as I quoted earlier in the thread from page 8 of the IG codex).

The IG codex says that 1 in 10 (or more) of the PDF are tithed. I doubt that the Special Forces of any country make up anywhere near 10% of that country's fighting force.

And a Planetary Governor would also want to keep some of his special forces planetside for obvious reasons.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
In 15 hours he was not a conscript, his induction into the Guard was a result of the tithe. His family happened to be called up.

Yes, but that doesn't preclude him being a conscript. Conscripts are used when the Guard REALLY needs quantity instead of quality. The average Guardsmen has recevied significant training.

The IG codex says that 1 in 10 (or more) of the PDF are tithed. I doubt that the Special Forces of any country make up anywhere near 10% of that country's fighting force.

And a Planetary Governor would also want to keep some of his special forces planetside for obvious reasons.

It wouldn't only be their SpecOps forces. It'd be their 'elites' the best of the best of their military whether that means SpecOps forces, or units considered 'elite'. e.g. Besides, yeah the Goverors don't like giving up their militaries, but if they don't, they kinda get the Imperium pissed at them, and that's generally considered a bad thing.

I don't know what fluff you've been reading, but the majority of guardsmen regiments don't strike me as the 'best of the best'. In fact, a lot of the time they are the criminal dregs.

The best of the best often are the criminal dregs, as they are often the ones who know how to fight, and only need the discipline of the GUard beaten over their head (or through it if a Commissar is around) to become decent soldiers. However, for the point of this thread we've been assuming that the best of the best of each sides conventional forces are going at each other. For the IG it means we're sending in Cadians, and for modern day Earth we're sending in Western troops.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Lasgun vs. Assault Rifle

There are such things as Lascarbines, and we know that lasguns have multiple firing modes in terms of power per shot. THere is no reason why lasguns can't mount accessories as well. I believe the Elysians have that standard.

Flak Armour vs. Interceptor Body Armour

Interceptor Armor is not more effectinve against impacts. I'm sure that flak armor can shrug off 9 mil ammo perfectly fine. Remember, flak armor can stand up to hits from heavy machine gun fire. Can INterceptor Body Armor do that? I sincerely doubt it.

Brother Coa wrote:

So you agree with me? The Imperial Guard is about quantity and not quality?

Because they have no choice. Why every German solder in WW2 didn't have StG44? Because it was to expensive to be given to everyone, so they go to quantity. Witch served them well. Allies have also go to quantity, Americans just send troops ( I won't even mention Sherman "tin cans" ) until they overwhelm the Germans, Soviets to.
Guard is choosing quality, of course. But they are only focusing in that are to stormtroopers and SW squads. And because they are have to many men and not enough time or equipment available...

That they are numerous doesn't contradict that they go for quality over quantity. There are far more potential recruits than there are weapons, equipment, and transports to carry them. So potential recruits receive training equivalent to modern soldiers, and the top ten percent go through another half year of training, and are shipped off, wherein they train constantly in the months it takes for them to get anywhere. By the time they reach their destination, you have tens of thousands of soldiers roughly equal to modern Spec Ops, and much better equipped. Stormtroopers have that much training by the time they're seven, and then go through better than a decade of even more intense training after that.

There are more than ten quadrillion humans on hiveworlds alone, and roughly one billion regiments of around 2,000-10,000 soldiers each. That works out to well under one thousandth of the human population being in the Guard, meaning they can afford to be picky about who they take, and it's certainly cheaper to train one hundred thousand troops on their own world and only take and equip the best ten thousand of them than it is to equip and find transport for all of them, not to mention the greater cost of supplying and feeding them once they're deployed.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
In 15 hours he was not a conscript, his induction into the Guard was a result of the tithe. His family happened to be called up.

Yes, but that doesn't preclude him being a conscript. Conscripts are used when the Guard REALLY needs quantity instead of quality. The average Guardsmen has recevied significant training.

They were reffered to as Guardsmen throughout, and the IG codex notes that conscripts don't receive that title until they've earnt it.

The IG codex says that 1 in 10 (or more) of the PDF are tithed. I doubt that the Special Forces of any country make up anywhere near 10% of that country's fighting force.

And a Planetary Governor would also want to keep some of his special forces planetside for obvious reasons.

It wouldn't only be their SpecOps forces. It'd be their 'elites' the best of the best of their military whether that means SpecOps forces, or units considered 'elite'. e.g. Besides, yeah the Goverors don't like giving up their militaries, but if they don't, they kinda get the Imperium pissed at them, and that's generally considered a bad thing.

They'd have to be extremely poor quality for the Imperium to notice, and even then...

I don't know what fluff you've been reading, but the majority of guardsmen regiments don't strike me as the 'best of the best'. In fact, a lot of the time they are the criminal dregs.

The best of the best often are the criminal dregs, as they are often the ones who know how to fight, and only need the discipline of the GUard beaten over their head (or through it if a Commissar is around) to become decent soldiers. However, for the point of this thread we've been assuming that the best of the best of each sides conventional forces are going at each other. For the IG it means we're sending in Cadians, and for modern day Earth we're sending in Western troops.

Another point I disagree on. Western troops in and of themselves are not overly impressive. They owe much of their credence to air support and a great deal of firepower behind them.

Seriously, look these guys up. I thought the website was bullshitting me until I looked it up.
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/gurung.html

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

In terms of training we can reasonably assume that Guardsmen of the Cadian/Catachan type have training as good as the best of Earth's military but with higher morale as a result of being hardened against enemies that the rest of us only see in nightmares. Veterans would be equivalent to the Gurkhas/SEALs/British Marines.

The average Guardsman has had as much training as modern Spec Ops by the time he reaches combat, and has gone through as rigorous a selection process to even get that far. A Cadian has had all that a dozen times over before he's even old enough to enter the military proper. A stormtrooper has had as much training as a Cadian, only at a drastically higher level.

I don't know what fluff you've been reading, but the majority of guardsmen regiments don't strike me as the 'best of the best'. In fact, a lot of the time they are the criminal dregs.

You're thinking of penal legions, which are not the common imperial guard regiments.

You can continue to claim they are, but you would be wrong. Penal Legions are a specific part of the Guard, and by no means the majority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I know. Brother Coa was saying that Penal Legionnaires were made up of common criminals.

They are. Penal Legions draw their recruits from Penal Worlds, which are not exclusively Guard criminals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Flak Armour vs. Interceptor Body Armour

- Flak Armour: protective against low-velocity bullets, explosives, shrapnel and heat or energy-based weaponry, with better overall coverage.
- Interceptor Body Armour: more effective against kinetic impacts (can partially or completely counter low-to-medium velocity 9mm bullets), heat-resistant, and protective against explosives and shrapnel.

Even.

I will correct this mistake.

- Flak armor: Protective against high-impact bullets and large caliber explosive rounds such as those used by Orks. EXTREMELY protective against explosives and shrapnel (almost equivalent to carapace armor against these two). Effective against heat and energy weapons, better overall coverage, capable of easily withstanding high caliber rounds such as that of the .50 cal M2 Browning and still providing protection to its user. Weight: 11kg (24.2lb) for full suit (helmet, gauntlets, chest/back plate, boots, pauldrons).

- Interceptor Body Armor: Useful against kinetic impacts, not designed for use against energy weapons and may in fact actually be harmful to the user when receiving one, protective against explosives and shrapnel for what little part of the body that it actually covers. Weight: 15kg (~33lb) for vest with various inserts, including groin and neck.

Advantage: Flak Armor.

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Flak Armour vs. Interceptor Body Armour

- Flak Armour: protective against low-velocity bullets, explosives, shrapnel and heat or energy-based weaponry, with better overall coverage.
- Interceptor Body Armour: more effective against kinetic impacts (can partially or completely counter low-to-medium velocity 9mm bullets), heat-resistant, and protective against explosives and shrapnel.

Even.

I will correct this mistake.

- Flak armor: Protective against high-impact bullets and large caliber explosive rounds such as those used by Orks. EXTREMELY protective against explosives and shrapnel (almost equivalent to carapace armor against these two). Effective against heat and energy weapons, better overall coverage, capable of easily withstanding high caliber rounds such as that of the .50 cal M2 Browning and still providing protection to its user. Weight: 11kg (24.2lb) for full suit (helmet, gauntlets, chest/back plate, boots, pauldrons).

- Interceptor Body Armor: Useful against kinetic impacts, not designed for use against energy weapons and may in fact actually be harmful to the user when receiving one, protective against explosives and shrapnel for what little part of the body that it actually covers. Weight: 15kg (~33lb) for vest with various inserts, including groin and neck.

Advantage: Flak Armor.

"It [Flak Armour] is meant to provide defence against low-velocity, dispersed damage, such as explosions, shrapnel and ricochet material, rather than to protect against a direct impact, in which case the armour's protection is almost negligible."

Melissia wrote:You're thinking of penal legions, which are not the common imperial guard regiments.

No, I'm not. I'm talking about gangs and criminals inducted directly into the Imperial Guard. Like the Anthonian Tunnel Rats. Or some Armageddon Steel Legions. Or the Necromundian 18th. And those are the noteworthy ones.

You can continue to claim they are, but you would be wrong. Penal Legions are a specific part of the Guard, and by no means the majority.

Never said they were the majority. In fact I wasn't talking about Penal Legions at all.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I know. Brother Coa was saying that Penal Legionnaires were made up of common criminals.

They are. Penal Legions draw their recruits from Penal Worlds, which are not exclusively Guard criminals.

And I've already provided an extract from the IG codex (pg 41) that shows the Penal Legions are drawn exclusively from the Imperial Guard.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Seriously, look these guys up. I thought the website was bullshitting me until I looked it up.
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/gurung.html

Thing is, you cannot take a hero and hold him (or her) up to be the example of a group. Sgt. Yakov Pavlov commanded a detachment of about a dozen soldiers who defended an apartment against German attacks for two months, and received the Hero of the Soviet Union (and other decorations). However, Soviet armies also saw gross incompetence and cowardice. What makes a hero a hero isn't that they are racially pre-inclined to be a killing machine; they just hulk out and turn into one. Thinking about it, Ghurkas are one of the so-called "Martial Races" of the British Empire. If you take a look at the British rationale for calling Ghurkas a martial race, its really racist, and smacks of "the White Man's Burden."

That said, I give you the Cracked.com article "5 Real-Life Soldiers who make Rambo look like a *****"

Ogiwan wrote:However, Soviet armies also saw gross incompetence and cowardice. What makes a hero a hero isn't that they are racially pre-inclined to be a killing machine; they just hulk out and turn into one.

Gurkhas have a real recorded history of hulking out though.

You don't say the All Blacks Rugby team are good at Rugby becuase they win a couple of matches once in a while. You say they are a damn good team because they scare the gak out of their opponent, then proceed to rip the opposing teams head off while having a jolly good time, and they have a history of doing so.

Thinking about it, Ghurkas are one of the so-called "Martial Races" of the British Empire. If you take a look at the British rationale for calling Ghurkas a martial race, its really racist, and smacks of "the White Man's Burden."

Yeah, after watching a YouTube doco on them it does strike me like that. Even closer to grimdark 40k than I thought.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:"It [Flak Armour] is meant to provide defence against low-velocity, dispersed damage, such as explosions, shrapnel and ricochet material, rather than to protect against a direct impact, in which case the armour's protection is almost negligible."

Which is proven demonstratively false by its actual effect in both tabletop and roleplaying games.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:And I've already provided an extract from the IG codex (pg 41) that shows the Penal Legions are drawn exclusively from the Imperial Guard.

And my source comes from codex imperalis, amongst other places. Penal legions do not draw exclusively from Guard criminals. They draw from all sorts of criminals sent to Penal Worlds.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:And I've already provided an extract from the IG codex (pg 41) that shows the Penal Legions are drawn exclusively from the Imperial Guard.

And my source comes from codex imperalis, amongst other places. Penal legions do not draw exclusively from Guard criminals. They draw from all sorts of criminals sent to Penal Worlds.

So I've got the Last Chancer's fluff and the actual Imperial Guard Codex.

In my opinion the Imperial Guard Codex trumps the Codex Imperalis, but then this will just devolve into a arguement between source viability.

im2randomghghhe wrote: The vehicle penetrating rounds are still hitting a flat surface-each individual scale is flat. It is simply the fact that they are made of titanium that protects you. You know, titanium? that stuff that is the hardest and most durable metal in the world? Can withstand Liquid Nitrogen? Ya, that.
Also, being wet/sandy isn't nearly enough to keep such sophisticated armour from protecting to the best of it's ability. And it's going to protect you from A LOT more than 50% of bullets that hit you.

2. With all the military experimentation going on, I wouldn't be surpirsed if within 5/10/20 years we saw something that completely out-classed the lasgun. Especially with all the railgun experiments, imagine, all soldiers using rail-rifles. Awesome, right?

3. ...since when are grenades designed to explode on impact?

4. The whole point of the dragonskin is that it is almost impossible for the kinetic energy of the blast/projectile to affect the user. After being spread through all the scales, the energy likely wouldn't even be enough to bruise the person inside. The only reason the person wearing the dragonskin would be dead is that they had nothing on their head, and the steel shards likely would have pierced their skull.

5. ...we're just going around in circles...

6. Just an explosion? What kind of WH40K fan are you?

1. That's not how Dragonskin works. It's a vest of overlapping Titanium scales, arranged to move against each other to dissapate the kinetic energy of an impact. Current anti-armour rounds are not designed to penetrate that, they're for flat solid surfaces you find on todays vehicles. Can withtand Liquid Nitrogen? And? There's no practical use for that.
Yes, it is. The whole system depends on the scales distributing the force. When they're impaired they just can't do it properly.

2. Railgun? Infantry Railgun rifles in 10 years? There's no way we're going to have that any time soon. The technology behind Battleship cannons hasn't been perfected yet. Where would you get a power source that's single man portable? Plus, we're talking about now, what do we have today not potentially have 50 or more years away.

3. Grenades lobbed by a Grenade Launcher aren't the same as thrown ones. They are designed to explode when they hit a target, or SOME have longer delayed charges so they can be launched further.

4. Well that's ridiculous. The scales are still moving against the wearer, the bigger the impact, the more they move. You can see in the demonstration that the manikin feels the impact of the bullets, and from the grenade. That grenade would have pulped the insides of the wearer. The suit wouldn't do a thing against energy weapons. Especially plasma or laser.

5. Only because you keep running.

6. Not what I said. It's just an EXPLOSIVE. A big explosive. A pretty horrible video that just showed exactly that.

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:"It [Flak Armour] is meant to provide defence against low-velocity, dispersed damage, such as explosions, shrapnel and ricochet material, rather than to protect against a direct impact, in which case the armour's protection is almost negligible."

Which is proven demonstratively false by its actual effect in both tabletop and roleplaying games.

Ah, but we're talking about a hypothetical, canon-based Imperial Guard force. A game system isn't truly representative... only indicative. I'd say that the in-game portrayal of Flak Armour is proven false by the above quote.

So IMO, the two types of body armour are relatively even in terms of effectiveness. Interceptor Body Armour is slightly more effective against las-weapons than Flak Armour is against bullets, but Flak provides more coverage.

That's a quote from you though, no specified cannon source.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
I know. Brother Coa was saying that Penal Legionnaires were made up of common criminals.

What part of: "Penal Legion units are formed from convicts, generally from those shipped to one of the Imperium's Penal Worlds, whose populations consist of criminals from throughout the Imperium." and "forces consisting entirely of convicted criminals, debtors, liberals and other social transgressors." you didn't understand?

An my recourses are not IG codex, it's: Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader, Warhammer 40,000: Compendium and Codex Imperialis.

iproxtaco wrote:That's a quote from you though, no specified cannon source.

Here. First paragraph.

Lexicanum itself is not a source. Much like wikipedia, it is fan-made, and many of its explanations are as well.