Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I do think it's worth listening to mikhaila on this one. Just check through his past posts. Almost every time GW's relationship with retailers has come up, in the past few years, he's been there, backing them up, saying that they're good to work with as long as you treat them fairly and respectfully, and sell through plenty of their stock. They gave him prize support for tourneys, etc., and he was generally extremely happy with the way they handled everything.

Think what it must have taken to turn his views around. This really is getting close to the last straw, for a lot of shops.

Also, think how little GW really value independent retailers, if they're prepared to lie outright to one of their most staunch supporters, who also does a huge amount of business with them.

This "Fortress Wall" thing around GW.... it's starting to look like a prison, or an insane asylum.

Thank goodness I re-read your post lol. I read the first line as, "I don't think it's worth listening..."

lol

Yeah, the most worrying sign of recent GW business practices has been the change in mikhaila's posts.

Bad things.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I agree, I was going to buy a Stormraven. But now im not because my store banned it for me now apprently.
Maybe as a protest i will get all the people from my store to buy it, then bring it in. I dont get how this is a "Screw You" to GW, its a screw you to customers who would otherwise be willing to spend there money there.

Regular rules still apply. If it is in your codex it is still ok.

Maybe as a protest i will get all the people from my store to buy it, then bring it in. I dont get how this is a "Screw You" to GW, its a screw you to customers who would otherwise be willing to spend there money there.

I said that early on in this thread, the retailers banning the book are just punishing their customers and driving them elsewhere. If customers buy hundreds of dollars worth of models (e.g., $82.50 Stormravens) at your store are you going to stop them from using them because you've banned the $33 rule book you couldn't sell? You're not punishing GW, you are punishing your customers and driving them to other businesses. Not really a well thought out move at all.

For those who missed my short-lived thread, here is the response from my local game store and I agree with them and support them.

"As a retail store, we take this is an attempt by Games Workshop to test the waters as to whether or not this is a reasonable way to market their products. It is our intention to make the waters hot and say in no uncertain terms that we do not approve of them cutting out stores. We value our partnership with GW, but this move is not in any way beneficial to the community or the stores which promote and sell their products.
To that end, we are banning use of Death from the Skies in any official format. Rules for flyers presented in White Dwarf are still allowed, but any new rules, including changes to point values, will not be respected or allowed in tournaments or any other event sponsored by Gryphon. We will continue to stand firm on this until GW reverses their decision as to making Death from the Skies a web exclusive.
We understand that this decision will hurt sales. We will sell fewer flyers and we will undoubtedly have fewer people attend our events. However, we need to make a stand and let GW know that we consider this decision to be irresponsible and unacceptable in our business relationship. Our industry is difficult enough without manufacturers deciding on methods to cut us out of the industry.
We will be contacting local stores and encouraging them to also take a stand.
If you enjoy having a store to play games, meet new friends and enjoy your hobby, I encourage you to take to the message boards. Discuss what we're doing. Discuss what GW is doing. Ask them to allow you to buy from your local store.
As always, we appreciate your business. We would also appreciate your understanding regarding our decision."

I would hope people could see how it hurts their business to have GW cut them out of the loop. Running a small business is a struggle without these kind of headaches.

To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can sell it, but you dont have thee kitchen to make it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can't even order it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.

FTFY

Most industries tend to have bodies that gather together to represent their collective interests. Do Hobby stores in the US have any such group?

rich1231 wrote:
Most industries tend to have bodies that gather together to represent their collective interests. Do Hobby stores in the US have any such group?

There is GAMA (http://gama.org/)

If you mean Lobbies or Unions?
No, Hobby stores are small businesses with not connection to one another.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If you mean Lobbies or Unions?
No, Hobby stores are small businesses with not connection to one another.

Not exactly correct. Some business types, even small ones, have trade associations that help promote the business type as a whole and there is such a thing for hobby stores as a matter of fact. One would think more Internet forum users could also use Google.

http://www.nrhsa.org/

NRHSA is a national organization which serves to unite hobby retailers to present one voice, one consistent message to the rest of the trade. You are the front line in the distribution chain, working directly with the consumer who pays our bills. You know what the consumer needs and you know what you need to best serve them. Your experiences should dictate what new products to develop, what information and training materials are needed, and what kind of advertising should be done to grow the market. The NRHSA organization is the tool for you to use to get that message across, loud and clear.

However, the best reason for joining NRHSA is because it unites your voice with that of hundreds of other top retailers across the country to provide one clear message to the rest of the trade. This is the power that won't be ignored. And when used effectively, manufacturers, distributors, and publishers will be influenced to provide you with just the products and services you need to please consumers and grow the market.

So, join today! The more members in NRHSA, the more power and influence retailers will have in our industry. Who better to have it than those who work most closely with the ultimate consumer?

Member Benefits
Board of Directors
Who we are
Mission Statement
Goals of the Organization

And there's this as well.

http://progamestores.org/
https://www.facebook.com/ProGameStore

About
The Professional Game Store Association is dedicated to promoting and strengthening the business of Hobby Game Retail Stores by partnering with manufacturers, publishers and distributors and taking a leadership role in support of the hobby game industry.

Mission
The Professional Game Store Association (PGSA) is created with the mission to promote and strengthen the business of Hobby Game Retail Stores by partnering with manufacturers, publishers and distributors and taking a leadership role in support of the hobby game industry.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can sell it, but you dont have thee kitchen to make it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.

That's ridiculous. A stand must be made. Imagine Ford Motors telling a used car dealership that the new model car could not be sold at their dealership.
The fact is that big, multi-national corporations like Microsoft, Walmart, BP, Monsanto, and yes, Games Workshop, always try to control the market and eliminate competition through the use of strong-arm tactics. If I want corn, I am not forced into going to the farmer. That is not how a free market economy works. Limiting product access is just another tactic by which GW is trying to control the hobby. They have a group of marketing and advertising experts sitting around plotting how to narrow the margin of loss and increase profits. The problem is these tactics are not cooperative efforts that benefit all. They are harmful practices that hurt the community while GW profits. If allowed to succeed, we will see a ban on retail sales altogether. Online retailers are already being hurt by gw's online policies. Soon there will be no game store that isn't GW.

That's their plan don't you think otherwise.

GW has made it pretty clear actually that their plan is to get people into the hobby via GW and shuffle them to FLGS where play is better.
The reason GW is cracking down on online retailers is simple, they hurt the hobby aswell.
Remember, many people said the Online retailers are hurting Stores by preventing sales.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
GW has made it pretty clear actually that their plan is to get people into the hobby via GW and shuffle them to FLGS where play is better.

So then why are they making a product aimed at experienced players online-only? DftS isn't for new players buying their first battleforce, by the time you're looking at flyer models/special expansion rules/etc you're at the point where you're supposedly "shuffled off to the FLGS". If what you're claiming is really true DftS would only be available through independent retailers, not from GW directly.

The real situation is that GW doesn't want FLGS to exist at all and only tolerates them because they can't get rid of them completely outside the UK.

The reason GW is cracking down on online retailers is simple, they hurt the hobby aswell.

Yeah, I'm sure it's idealism and defending the hobby rather than maximizing sales through their own (full retail price) online store...

Dakka should hire a lobbyist to go change this gak. Everyone contributes $10 a pop, bam. We go all AIPAC on GW.

Soon there will be no game store that isn't GW.

While this worked pretty well for GW in the UK they have no chance of doing anything like that in the US any time soon. GW not only does not have a store in every town in the US, they don't even have stores in every major city. The geography in the US is just too big and the populace too spread out for GW to feel they can open a store everywhere as they did in the UK and the fact is that most US customers buy from third party retailers, not directly from GW. If they killed all the third party stores in the US that sell their product their efforts to "conquer" the US the way they did the UK by making Warhammer more mainstream would be lost forever.

GW has been struggling with the US market for years. Its potential is massive, yet US sales overall continue to lag behind those in their much smaller home country. GW just doesn't seem to be able to figure it out even after nearly three decades in the US marketplace. For example, they still don't seem to realize that in a place as big as the US a lot of people aren't even aware that GW stores exist, yet they do very little to nothing to advertise and raise awareness of their shops. They still think word of mouth will work in the US the way it does in the UK and it just has not.

 chris_valera wrote:

The point of a business is to make money, but if they feel that strongly about it they'd be willing to "take one for the team" so to speak. I see a lot of huffing and puffing, but not of these retailers are cutting back on their orders, dropping GW, or doing anything that would cause GW any concern. They're not willing to break even on the GW for WM trade, they even insist on a profit on that. They won't even do a break-even trade, which, if you though GW was so evil, you would do

It's like all the people that huff and puff about politics, but can't take the time to vote, or even to make time (money) for it.

If they can't take the pain of a small loss in the short-term (which could be argued is a loss leader anyway) to make more money in the long run, or just to send a message, then what good are these complaints.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Uhh... Seems like you have a lot of wilful ignorance.

Many stores are offering discounts on Hordes, and Warmachine starter sets if you bring in a current edition GW rule book.
Consider a business that makes its bills every month because it sells GW products. Now consider everyone who would spend money on the new GW stuff going to GW's site instead. Now this store can't pay bills and goes out of business.

They should drop the product that's been keeping them afloat and go out of business sooner just to make a point?

You obviously don't have kids to feed or understand how to run a business. Talk about "huff and puff."

Considering this is what happens when GW advertises, do we want that?

I haven't read the whole thread but this all seems pretty stupid to me. FLGS have been undercutting GW for years so it was only a matter of time before GW started doing direct only items. They started with models and have now progressed to books. Added to this is the weird little concept of people playing games in stores. I'm sure it's great for some but in 27 years of gaming I've never felt the desire to play a game in a shop. In these troublesome times of internets and dying high street stores (see HMV in the UK) I don't give a damn about petty shops refusing to recognise a book from a company that regularly gets slagged off. I mean, it's not like everything Forgeworld make isn't direct order only. Just look at the Abbaddon v Loken model and ask yourself "does anyone give a frag about flyers in the face of the Horus Heresy models?".

Look guys, girls play here! We swear!

Bloodwin wrote:
I mean, it's not like everything Forgeworld make isn't direct order only.

Except that FW stuff is direct-only because it's a niche market product with low sales volume and no practical way of getting it into every retail store. DftS, on the other hand, is a critical book for multiple armies and there is nothing preventing GW from making it available to independent retailers.

As for the rest, the US market is not the UK market.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
GW has made it pretty clear actually that their plan is to get people into the hobby via GW and shuffle them to FLGS where play is better.
The reason GW is cracking down on online retailers is simple, they hurt the hobby aswell.
Remember, many people said the Online retailers are hurting Stores by preventing sales.

An online retailer doesn't hurt sales on items that are available for purchase in a store. Our economy is driven by freedom of choice. I am impatient so I will go to a store to make a purchase rather than wait, but online retailers offer OOP models and bits I can't get anywhere else, so I am supporting both causes.
A manufacturer trying to control who can and who can't sell a product hurts the entire industry and is really a poor decision on their part. How much promotion of the new products are they losing? GW should realise how much advertising the small guys do to promote GW products. A move like this is a shot in the foot.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Bloodwin wrote:
I mean, it's not like everything Forgeworld make isn't direct order only.

Except that FW stuff is direct-only because it's a niche market product with low sales volume and no practical way of getting it into every retail store. DftS, on the other hand, is a critical book for multiple armies and there is nothing preventing GW from making it available to independent retailers.

As for the rest, the US market is not the UK market.

Also asking retailers to pay $600.00 for an item that "might" sell is too much to ask.

Bloodwin wrote:I haven't read the whole thread but this all seems pretty stupid to me. FLGS have been undercutting GW for years so it was only a matter of time before GW started doing direct only items. They started with models and have now progressed to books. Added to this is the weird little concept of people playing games in stores. I'm sure it's great for some but in 27 years of gaming I've never felt the desire to play a game in a shop. In these troublesome times of internets and dying high street stores (see HMV in the UK) I don't give a damn about petty shops refusing to recognise a book from a company that regularly gets slagged off. I mean, it's not like everything Forgeworld make isn't direct order only. Just look at the Abbaddon v Loken model and ask yourself "does anyone give a frag about flyers in the face of the Horus Heresy models?".

How do FLGS stores undercut GW? Is it because they offer a 5, 10, 15, or up to 25% discount off of GW products? You do realize that GW makes their money off of the distributor's price when the FLGS buys product from their GW sales rep right? GW stands to make MORE off of their webstore and with GW direct items. A 37.25 tactical squad from your FLGS will give what... 19 USD to GW? If you buy that same tactical squad off of GW's website, guess how much they get 37.25, so they have incentive to cut out the flgs, and no matter what an FLGS tries, they'll never be able to undercut the supplier of their product.

 StormK wrote:

That's ridiculous. A stand must be made. Imagine Ford Motors telling a used car dealership that the new model car could not be sold at their dealership.
The fact is that big, multi-national corporations like Microsoft, Walmart, BP, Monsanto, and yes, Games Workshop, always try to control the market and eliminate competition through the use of strong-arm tactics. If I want corn, I am not forced into going to the farmer. That is not how a free market economy works. Limiting product access is just another tactic by which GW is trying to control the hobby. They have a group of marketing and advertising experts sitting around plotting how to narrow the margin of loss and increase profits. The problem is these tactics are not cooperative efforts that benefit all. They are harmful practices that hurt the community while GW profits. If allowed to succeed, we will see a ban on retail sales altogether. Online retailers are already being hurt by gw's online policies. Soon there will be no game store that isn't GW.

That's their plan don't you think otherwise.

Huh, Imagine if Ford and GM and Chrysler all reached out into the US market and CLOSED, uhm, like 1000 dealerships. Oh, wait. They did.

I agree that game stores should funnel their outrage at GW, but not by banning the book. Because all you really did was make guys who got the book not able to use. Sorry Mr. Ultramarine player, you can't play with spiffy new Stormraven I sold you. Turn that frown upside down though, you can still pay me to play in my tournament here. And yes, Mr. Ork player, you can use your flyer if you have the White Dwarf rules, but I am not going to rewrite anything in your FAQ, so come play in my tournament, and I'll pick and choose what I'm going to ignore in the rules as we go along, and don't be unpleasant during the competition when I'm trying to figure out which way I'm going to rule.

My local store was a little miffed that it didn't get offered for him to sell, but by punishing your customers you're targeting the wrong audience. That would be like saying that because I bought my copy of Mantic's Dreadball through the kickstarter that I can't bring it to his store. Because I took money out of his pocket by doing that. Huh, just the opposite. I took it in and it drummed up interest and he's getting an account with Mantic to sell games to customers.

Anyway, I hope they copies of all those old FAQs, otherwise its going to be fun times playing a tournament in those stores.

I happen to agree with some of the stores not allowing it in their facilities ..... IT IS THIER STORE. They can do as they wish.

GW has a mindset for stuff that works in the UK and think that perhaps the same will work in the US. That is more queer than a football bat. Look at the differences in the countries. Our cops have guns, their cops have nightsticks ( or whatever they call them); they have Rally car racing, we got NASCAR (FOR REAL?!? GO FAST TURN LEFT????); they have mass tranist everyhwere, we have mass carbon monoxide problems (Look at a Los Angeles night sky to see what I mean).

Most people that I know that play are actually quite displeased with GW for doing this. My personal take on why this is so, is because the FLGS I play at is NOT a GW store. There is not one of those within 100 miles of us. The guy who runs the place has built like 12 tables for us to play on. All of them were out of pocket for him. To do something like this is fairly poor of GW in my eyes.

When I first got into the hobby and started visiting the boards people were always going nuts about GW doing this or GW doing that. I would write most of that off, but this one ... I happen to agree with the disgruntled mass that have the nerve to say something about how they feel. I put myself in their shoes and found them uncomfortable.

Then again .... I am also a Union Ironworker that has ZERO qualms with MFing someone who has it coming .... perk of the job. Rant over.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can sell it, but you dont have thee kitchen to make it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.

I'm sorry that this is a simple inconvience to you as a gamer but the it's a matter of protecting the livelihood of the store owners that are affected by this. With that in mind, who is the "spoiled brat" in that situation? This is likely the first step of many in cutting out the store from necessary products to play the game with existing models and is IMO a totally justified stand for stores to take in regards to official events. GW was the first gaming company (I believe they beat TSR/WOTC to the punch IIRC) to cut out the distributor from most of their dealings to save 5-10% and the stores are the next logical hurdle in GW's mind between them and the consumer.

While I wouldn't support a store in stopping casual players who came for a pickup game from using the rules, I would say making a store rule that keeps the older rules as completely legal in all games including casual is reasonable as is not allowing the new rules in tournies and other official events (with the proper notice of course in the posted tourney rules). As for sushi, plenty of stores do ban outside food if they sell food inside. Continuing your rather ridiculous analogy, do you think McDonalds would be ok if you sat down with a Papa John's pizza in their restaurant just because they dont' sell pizza?

I don't really see how stores banning DftS in tournaments is more offensive than banning FW books in tournaments, aside from the fact that FW models are much more rare than stormtalons or dakkajets.

 warboss wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can sell it, but you dont have thee kitchen to make it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.

I'm sorry that this is a simple inconvience to you as a gamer but the it's a matter of protecting the livelihood of the store owners that are affected by this. With that in mind, who is the "spoiled brat" in that situation? This is likely the first step of many in cutting out the store from necessary products to play the game with existing models and is IMO a totally justified stand for stores to take in regards to official events. GW was the first gaming company (I believe they beat TSR/WOTC to the punch IIRC) to cut out the distributor from most of their dealings to save 5-10% and the stores are the next logical hurdle in GW's mind between them and the consumer.

While I wouldn't support a store in stopping casual players who came for a pickup game from using the rules, I would say making a store rule that keeps the older rules as completely legal in all games including casual is reasonable as is not allowing the new rules in tournies and other official events (with the proper notice of course in the posted tourney rules). As for sushi, plenty of stores do ban outside food if they sell food inside. Continuing your rather ridiculous analogy, do you think McDonalds would be ok if you sat down with a Papa John's pizza in their restaurant just because they dont' sell pizza?

Actually, many resturants allow you to come in with other food aslong as either you, or someone else in your party buys something from them.
This is just them being upset because they dont get so sell something, its like the stores that ban KS products because someone else got it from them before.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Actually, many resturants allow you to come in with other food aslong as either you, or someone else in your party buys something from them.
This is just them being upset because they dont get so sell something, its like the stores that ban KS products because someone else got it from them before.

You and I must not visit the same restaurants.

And did it cross your mind that perhaps these stores are defending their livelyhood? Being upset about one direct only sales item may prevent them from cutting them out of the GW sales strategy entirely.