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In that case, Why wouldn't you just use reivers instead of veterans? Same attacks, more wounds, and can deep strike. 200 points gets you a deep striking 20 wound blob, with 31 attacks in CC, plus another 10 pistol shots with -1 ap.

 Grimgold wrote:
In that case, Why wouldn't you just use reivers instead of veterans? Same attacks, more wounds, and can deep strike. 200 points gets you a deep striking 20 wound blob, with 31 attacks in CC, plus another 10 pistol shots with -1 ap.

Because Veterans are 18ppm vs 20ppm for Deepstriking Reivers (So 90p vs 100p), they can ride inside a razorback, and they have 20 stormbolter shoots vs 5 Pistol Shots. Yeah they have half the wounds, but that is not really relevant, for what you want them to do.
Extra points if you run those Company Veterans alongside a Rhino with 2-3 Company Champions and a Librarian for those sweet rerroll to hit and to wound in meele for the veterans.

EDIT: And I'll say that I have 10 Reivers, 5 with bolters and 5 with pistol+CCW. I love them, and they are very usefull, but I think their lack of special weapons, even a powersword for the sargeant, really hurts them.

If you wanted a ton of shots and good CC wouldn't you go for aggressors? 110 points gets you extra toughness, and an extra wound, with power fists, and a ton more shots. Vets seem way too delicate even by the standards of aggressors, which are the second most most delicate of the primaris.

 Grimgold wrote:
If you wanted a ton of shots and good CC wouldn't you go for aggressors? 110 points gets you extra toughness, and an extra wound, with power fists, and a ton more shots. Vets seem way too delicate even by the standards of aggressors, which are the second most most delicate of the primaris.

I want a good amount of cheap shots and competent CC in a movile platform that can go where I need it. And Razorbacks are very good by themselves. Agressors aren't movile, and Reivers don't fill the same tactical role for me.

Drop pods aren't in a good place right now but if I used one it'd be full of veterans with Chainswords and Azrael.

To me, the deal breaker for Aggressors is their short range and slow movement. They might work okay as backline objective guards, but if you want to use them offensively you probably should put them in a Repulsor, which is a massive point sink. SB Vets, on the other hand, are able to ride in a Rhino or Razorback, and they can reach out and touch something at 24" compared to the 18" for Aggressors. And they can move a bit faster if their ride gets blown up or their target is destroyed (or moves away from them). Yes, you can advance Aggressors and still shoot them, but now you're hitting on 4's. With rerolls that's okay I suppose, but I'd still rather have the veterans. I do intend to get a set of Aggressors at some point and give them a fair trial, if for no other reason than they are very cool models.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
To me, the deal breaker for Aggressors is their short range and slow movement. They might work okay as backline objective guards, but if you want to use them offensively you probably should put them in a Repulsor, which is a massive point sink. SB Vets, on the other hand, are able to ride in a Rhino or Razorback, and they can reach out and touch something at 24" compared to the 18" for Aggressors. And they can move a bit faster if their ride gets blown up or their target is destroyed (or moves away from them). Yes, you can advance Aggressors and still shoot them, but now you're hitting on 4's. With rerolls that's okay I suppose, but I'd still rather have the veterans. I do intend to get a set of Aggressors at some point and give them a fair trial, if for no other reason than they are very cool models.

Unless I'm mistaken, Aggressors have Relentless advance, which negates the penalty for advancing and firing. This actually gives them a good movement (comparatively) of 5+D6 base since there is no reason not to advance every time.

Try playing Bolter Aggressors with Azrael. Just proxy them once.

Aggressor death balls (18 guys) as Raven Guard with the Ancient and Shrike win games all on their own. If they win the first tun, they massacre everything (342 shots with rerolls). If they lose the first turn they can make their ball at a safe spot. They just need some support against assault, but soup lists have plenty to choose from.

For Dark Angels they just aren’t flexible enough in the deployment and more vulnerable to alpha. It’s like night and day.

I'm not sure about 18 Agressors but they are arguably better against alpha strike in a dark angel list than in Raven Guard. Take a Dark shroud to get -1 to hit, and Azzy for a 4++ save, and they end up more durable. The place they lose out is their own potential for alpha strike, you will never get first turn double shots in dark angles.

They are reasonably mobile though with their advance and fire rule you are moving on average 8-9" per turn. To me for Dark Angles it would come down to why am I not using Sammi and dark talons as my anti-horde? But as part of an Azzy blob aggressors might be attractive.

Raven Guard Aggressors are also -1 to hit, and in cover (not difficult for infantry) the 2+ save is solid enough.

Dark Talons are amazing. Sammy and the Heavenfall Talonmaster are too. They are strong in a different way. Better vs assault and they always get their shots against the enemy regardless of terrain. On the other hand, they are actually more vulnerable to alpha, not nearly as versatile in deployment, don’t shoot quite as much as Aggressors point for point, and lastly Talons currently are in the danger zone of getting a points increase in next month’s big faq. If they stay at 160 points, forget the DA Aggressors and keep flying. Dark Talon spam is currently a meta defining list, and could be a dominating list if Dark Reapers take a hard hit from the nerf bat and Talons avoid it.

I would say Sammi and the Talonmaster are far less venerable to alpha strike than aggressors are. Being characters it is really easy to make them unable to be shot, and screens prevent charges.

Quick Questions: If you were to load a Terminator squad, what load would you go for? I am trying to go for a mixed Death/Ravenwing and trying to decide between Plasma or Assault Cannon.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Quick Questions: If you were to load a Terminator squad, what load would you go for? I am trying to go for a mixed Death/Ravenwing and trying to decide between Plasma or Assault Cannon.

Deathwing Knights.

Probably assault cannon to clear chaff. Put plasma on the Inceptors landing just behind your terminators, or Black Knights.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Quick Questions: If you were to load a Terminator squad, what load would you go for? I am trying to go for a mixed Death/Ravenwing and trying to decide between Plasma or Assault Cannon.

Depends on what's in your Ravenwing? If you have Black Knights or Plasma gun equipped Bikers, go with the Asscan. You are trying to combine unit strategy, so use one unit to fill in the holes of the other. If you have flamer and bolter bikers for the low toughness chaff, combines with storm bolters on the termies, that should clear quite a bit of T3 stuff. On the other hand if you are trying to get through a blob of Reivers, plasma is your friend.

Shrapnelbait wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Quick Questions: If you were to load a Terminator squad, what load would you go for? I am trying to go for a mixed Death/Ravenwing and trying to decide between Plasma or Assault Cannon.

Depends on what's in your Ravenwing? If you have Black Knights or Plasma gun equipped Bikers, go with the Asscan. You are trying to combine unit strategy, so use one unit to fill in the holes of the other. If you have flamer and bolter bikers for the low toughness chaff, combines with storm bolters on the termies, that should clear quite a bit of T3 stuff. On the other hand if you are trying to get through a blob of Reivers, plasma is your friend.

My Ravenwing is a mix of Black Knights and normal bikers with plasma. I am basically making an easily portable list(elite) for fun games, but at the same time trying to avoid gimping myself too much. Maybe it is my eternal desire to play mostly Deathwing and Ravenwing which is something GW will never properly balance.

The list is as follow:

Outrider detachment
* Sammael on Corvex
* 4 Ravenwing bikers with Plasma (I could technically got for another MSU Black Knights if I remove this squad, reduce the number of BK in the next unit by 1)
* 4 Black Knights
* Darkshroud

Vanguard Detachment
* Belial
* Deathwing Champion
* Deathwing Knights w. Watcher
* Deathwing Terminators w. Plasma/Assault Cannon
* Scout Squad with Bolters
* Scout Squad with Bolters

1498 points

Im trying to make a not terrible almost pure primaris army but i have some questions

Are inceptors any good, and plasma or bolters?

Are reivers useful? They seem kinda nice to tie up enemy shooty units.

Are hellblasters and one repulsor good enough anti tank, or is the range too short? I was looking at the xiphon interceptor, which is a cool model.

I will be cheating by using a primaris captain as azrael

Inceptors are good with both weapon loadouts, depends on what you need.

Reivers are good in a pure Primaris army, though definitely not needed.

Hellblasters are amazing anti-tank, especially with Weapons from the Dark Age... they will be targeted though so best to have redundancy (Plasma Inceptors could do this or more Hellblasters).

The biggest thing to worry about is that you will struggle against army's that have -1 to hit them since most of your damage is coming from Plasma. Redemptors will give you some good anti-infantry, so will Inceptors with Bolters, Intercessors, and the Reivers.

 ThePie wrote:
Im trying to make a not terrible almost pure primaris army but i have some questions

Are inceptors any good, and plasma or bolters?

Are reivers useful? They seem kinda nice to tie up enemy shooty units.

Are hellblasters and one repulsor good enough anti tank, or is the range too short? I was looking at the xiphon interceptor, which is a cool model.

I will be cheating by using a primaris captain as azrael

I haven't used bolter inceptors but Plasma Inceptors w/Weapons of the Dark Age prety much let me pick the highest point value model on the table and wipe it off the face of the earth. 170pts that can kill twice that is fantastic

Reivers are good, but I'm not sold on their grapnel or grav-chute options. It seem easier to keep them in cover and rush up when the opponent gets close to all your shooty marines.

Hellblasters can be incredibly good anti-tank, but the repulsor has the Land-Raider problem. It's about a third of your list in point value and has a bunch of weapons that do different things. It's hard to use in practice.

One unit of plasma inceptors and a deep striking captain means you don't need to worry about demon primarchs.

As others have said, your hellblasters will get focused early and often. In a pure primaris force the only counter to that is an ancient, which lets you hit back while they are being eliminated.

A jump pack master + Plasma interceptors is 273 points, and you more or less have to make that back in one round of shooting. The odds of killing a daemon primarch are pretty low, even assuming just a 4++

(2/3 + (1/6 * 2/3)) * 2/3 * 1/2 = 7/27 * 3 (damage per shot) * 12 (average Number of shots) = 9.3 wounds is what you should expect assuming you roll average. 9.3 wounds off of Mortarion/Magnus is debatably 273 points of value. However That's not taking into account mortarion's disgustingly resilient, or magnus getting a buff to his invul save.

Hellblasters aren't anti-tank. They are midfield control units. Very powerful vs other elite lists, but terrible against gunlines which will outrange them.

9.3 wounds is what you should expect (from 3 inceptors) assuming you roll average

I doubt I'd run with fewer than 6 Inceptors because of WftDA. That's too much damage to pass up, and as you demonstrated, you need more than 3 dudes to take down the seriously tough targets.

I posted this over in the Custodes thread but figured you guys would get some mileage out of it, too. I'm trying to figure out how to make a Custodes force work well in a relatively competitive environment, and it seems like DA actually pair up fairly well with them. This is what I have so far:

Outrider
Shield Captain - auric aquilus, hurricane bolter, misericordia, superior creation (warlord), victor of the blood games - 164
Shield Captain - eagle's eye, hurricane bolter, misericordia, victor of the blood games - 164
3x3 Vertus Praetors - hurricane bolters, misericordias - 846
1174

Battalion
Sammael - 216
Lieutenant with jump pack - power fist - 90
3x5 scouts - 165
6 Inceptors - plasma - 354
825

1999

Basically, Custodes bikes do their thing, clearing screens and bashing heads, while Sammael moves upfield. Ideally, Sammy will be in position to buff the Inceptors who'll drop in with the Lieutenant. I could just use a Master with a jump pack and another unit of scouts instead to ensure the Inceptors reroll their hits, but Sammy is pretty sweet. What do you guys think?

Yeah I suppose you could improve the cost benefit ratio by leaving the jump master out, because if they blow up, well you expected them to die the next turn anyway. They would function like the grav devs in a skyhammer annihilation force back in 7th ed, drop to squish the biggest bad they have and then forget about them because they are going to die.

However we don't have as many good targets for a suicide squad of six dudes, Magnus and Mortarion are more or less it, all of the rest of the superheavies aren't very threatening. So I don't know if a six man plasma inceptor squad has a place in a TAC list.

Well, with everything splitting fire, they can gun down a couple vehicles or even heavy infantry as necessary. They'll be priority 1 once they drop, but I wouldn't quite call them a suicide squad. With a bunch of Custodes bikes rocketing up the field, you'll have the opportunity to tie up or just kill a fair amount of whatever might threaten them. 400pts of guys isn't too large an amount to keep off the table for a turn if you need to put your hurricane bolters to work for a round to clear up a landing zone and essentially ensure that your bikes will be getting into combat the turn your Inceptors come down.

I ran a list over the weekend with 6 Plasma Inceptors and 15 Hellblasters. It did very well. The Inceptors dropped in with a Master, Erased an enemy flyer with leftover shots, and because I dropped them in cover ate a lot of the fire that would have otherwise gone at my Primaris force marching up the middle. Azrael, Lieutenant, Dark Shroud, and 3 5-man Hellblaster squads made up my center, and they erased everything that got within range. I had scouts that blocked off landing zones for my Inceptors and then a small Black Knight unit (6-man) with a Talonmaster that flanked and distracted.

I was playing Ultramarines, but no Roboute. His Hellblasters and Predators didn't do enough fast enough to stop me before I was on him and mopping up. The game was over on turn 3 and my opponent conceded.

I haven't heard much in the way of using Predators for Dark Angels. Are they very useful for us?

 Captain Garius wrote:
I ran a list over the weekend with 6 Plasma Inceptors and 15 Hellblasters. It did very well. The Inceptors dropped in with a Master, Erased an enemy flyer with leftover shots, and because I dropped them in cover ate a lot of the fire that would have otherwise gone at my Primaris force marching up the middle. Azrael, Lieutenant, Dark Shroud, and 3 5-man Hellblaster squads made up my center, and they erased everything that got within range. I had scouts that blocked off landing zones for my Inceptors and then a small Black Knight unit (6-man) with a Talonmaster that flanked and distracted.

I was playing Ultramarines, but no Roboute. His Hellblasters and Predators didn't do enough fast enough to stop me before I was on him and mopping up. The game was over on turn 3 and my opponent conceded.

what army were you up against?

It seems to me that DA infantry gunline will struggle against horde armies like nids or orks

Also, do you think running inceptors is better with a jumpack capitain and a leutenant to maximize kill potential or is that too much points for a suicide squad?

Currently i'm working on a similar list, seems to perform pretty well against space marines

Battalion
HQ
LeutenantJP chainsword plasma pistol
Leutenant chainsword SBolter
Troops
Intercessors x5
Intercessors x5
Scouts x5 Bolters
Scouts x5 pistols,knives
Heavy support
Hellblasters x10 Plasma incinerators

Outrider
HQ
MasterJP powersword plasma pistol powersword will be swapped with a heaven fall blade

Fast attack
Inceptors x6 Assault plasmas
Inceptors x3 Assault bolters
Inceptors x3 Assault bolters
DarkShroud HeavyBolter


Patrol
HQ
Azrael
Elites
Culexus
Chapter Ancient Combi plasma

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I haven't heard much in the way of using Predators for Dark Angels. Are they very useful for us?

They’re still good, but they don’t benefit from Grim Resolve so if you want lascannons Devastators are more accurate, and if you want Dakka Sammael or the Talonmaster are far superior. I have been toying with the idea of swapping my 10 man Dev squad with lascannons out for a Predator because it’s cheaper and may help a little with vehicle saturation, but I haven’t put it on the table yet. The Devs have been pretty good for me, but they tend to get shot up fast. On more than one occasion they have died without firing a shot, . The Predator is more mobile and can hide if needed, and it may draw some heat off my Rhino and Razorbacks which also tend to eat a lot of bullets early.

Strategems: Not talking about the obvious ones like wotda, but how many of them do you use in your games? Do people use Cluster Mines, Stasis Shells, Flack Missiles, or Hellfire Rounds to do mortal wounds to targets?