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Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Just stop man. You're embarassing yourself now. Just put your money where your mouth is and post your list. There's some brutally top tier lists there that nearly cannot lose more than marginally like the Poxwalkers, and you come off here from your non-competitive local store meta saying your Space Marines would 20-0 them all. Hilarious really. This is what message boards are good for. Comedy.
So much salt
You should realise every Meta is different. While yours seems to run soup and spam a lot of other places don't. My Meta for example is full of people who run what they like. I only see soups and spams when Team Ireland and Northern Ireland players are participating in tournaments or practicing against each other at my local club.
If a tournament in my area has 60ish people playing then it's usually 6-8 people bring spam and soup and the other 52-4 people just do "rule of cool" and play to have a great time.
Azuza001 wrote: My comparison was vs 100 guardsmen, but with us getting first turn of shooting due to dropping in / deep strike and killing 30 to begin with.
I am not saying it's a point effective option to kill guard, I am saying that the guard are going to have a lot of trouble killing that many warriors with the buffs we get vs the warriors having little issue killing them back.
If every army had a way to deal with every option out there then the game would be stale, it would be your marines and my warriors and his guard all represent the same thing so why bother. It's these differences that make things great for having different armies that are good at different things.
There are only a few guard players in my meta, but one runs mass infantry and the other mix of infantry and tanks. Myself I will be trying the warrior blob vs the infantry force once the codex is out for real. Maybe it's a waste, maybe not. I think one round of shooting isn't the way to measure a units usefulness, you have to look at the return fire as well, as well as other things like other units that could be used. That's when things get difficult in theory hammer.
Let's go back to your original post:
Azuza001 wrote: Am I missing something on the math of GEQ vs Warriors with support from a ghost ark?
40 warriors with out having to worry about moral should have little issue with 70 guards shooting Las at them even if they all were in double tap range.
70 guard, 140 shots, 70 hits, I will say 90 hits off of rerolls or whatever. That's 90 hits, 30 wounds since it's str 3 vs t4, let's say 36 wounds because rolls suck. That's still a 3+ save for only a loss of 6 guys on a squad of 20 that has 2 chances at rp, and 0 moral because I am sorry, the wl trait for ignore moral and block a power is just great. That's 3 getting up, then say 1 because rolls. So 70 guardsmen killed 2 warriors? How is that not an effective option for killing GEQ? Now you get to kill 30 more.
So your 480 points of Warriors, 160 point Ghost Ark, and then your Warlord drop in. Giving the Ark 10 shots too, you're killing 33 Guardsmen out of the original 100 (133 out of 400 points). So far so good, though you didn't actually kill that much for your investment. But then you're significantly underestimating their return fire. They're definitely going to have FRFSRF. It's closer to 268 shots (tho the sergeants don't benefit and don't rapid fire). Also Warriors have a 4+ save, not 3+. So the remaining 267 points of Guardsmen expect 134 hits, 44.7 wounds, and 22.3 failed saves. That's a full squad, so you're not getting RP, and it's also 268 points' worth of Warriors. The Guardsmen handily won the exchange even though you had more points of Warriors to start with and got to shoot first.
But you also can't just ignore the rest of their army. This is the problem with RP. Even if those Guardsmen roll a bit below average and only kill 19 Warriors, what's going to happen is that some of your opponent's other 1600 points finish off the last Warrior. You can only rely on getting RP on very beefy squads that stay pretty far away from the enemy.
At least you still have one full squad to shoot with next turn though, right? Except that it's probably stuck in CC.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 14:29:48
Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Just stop man. You're embarassing yourself now. Just put your money where your mouth is and post your list. There's some brutally top tier lists there that nearly cannot lose more than marginally like the Poxwalkers, and you come off here from your non-competitive local store meta saying your Space Marines would 20-0 them all. Hilarious really. This is what message boards are good for. Comedy.
Easy
Gman
Smashfether w/ combi-melta, TH, santic halo
2x fire raptors
repulsor full of aggressors
tiggy
scouts
Zimko wrote:
Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Automatically Appended Next Post: Most of those lists have like 2 units that can do some damage, kill the bikes, or the death company, or the oblits and those armies kill like 1 Unit a turn, with all the rest of the shooting. Slaneesh cultists are different.
Also, yeah in a tournament you are going to get a bad matchup, and if we can’t deal with chaff that well then maybe that’s our weakness. A triple superheavy is the other end of the spectrum but again, they don’t win tournaments (at least not around here).
What has been shown are two extreme examples, super hordey and super elite, were in the middle and have tools against everything.
those bikes have character protection. The death company will deep strike and have 3d6 charge. the oblits will also deep strike and poxwalkers will fill the board, taking all the objectives (that's a poxwalker apocolypse list. For every cultist you kill, they get a poxwalker, and the poxwalkers are untargetable.) and the poxwalkers will become a threat with all those character buffs.
You're dismissing these lists as if they're easy because you personally haven't seen them win anything. But they're a real threat.
I know the bikes have character protection, but they have to break sometime, its kinda hard to win a fight against aggressors with VoT and null zone up.... but i know what you are saying, they are a threat, im not denying it. All im saying is those lists hemorage KP, to the point that even if the bikes managed to kill a few units, once their gone its very easy to kill everything else.
Ive seen 3d6 +1 double bloodletter bombs fail with skarbrand behind them... and auspex scan would deny them the charge if they want to survive.
Oblits are scary, but again, they get one round of shooting off, can they kill 2 fire raptors with -1/2 to hit? Doubt they have that much dakka.
Ive personally minced poxerwalker hordes, sure there is a HUGE poxwalker horde to deal with at the end, but its not really that threatening IMO. If youve got the dakka, youve got the answer.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 15:33:20
Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Just stop man. You're embarassing yourself now. Just put your money where your mouth is and post your list. There's some brutally top tier lists there that nearly cannot lose more than marginally like the Poxwalkers, and you come off here from your non-competitive local store meta saying your Space Marines would 20-0 them all. Hilarious really. This is what message boards are good for. Comedy.
So much salt
You should realise every Meta is different. While yours seems to run soup and spam a lot of other places don't. My Meta for example is full of people who run what they like. I only see soups and spams when Team Ireland and Northern Ireland players are participating in tournaments or practicing against each other at my local club.
If a tournament in my area has 60ish people playing then it's usually 6-8 people bring spam and soup and the other 52-4 people just do "rule of cool" and play to have a great time.
That's not what's being discussed, though. Doing well when everyone is just playing whatever and going to have a good time - that doesn't matter, since you can't talk about that from a tactical perspective. If you're going to discuss competition and tournament play, the only thing worth discussing is how it competes against top level lists. I can throw random models in my bag and beat a player who just brought nothing but Tactical Marines "because he thinks it's cool", but you have to actually try to do good against things like Eldar/Ynnari, Imperial soup, or any of the other meta builds. And that's what needs to be discussed.
Ive personally minced poxerwalker hordes, sure there is a HUGE poxwalker horde to deal with at the end, but its not really that threatening IMO. If youve got the dakka, youve got the answer.
How large? Because the game is based around Objectives 90% of the time, not just Kill Points, and a huge, nigh-unkillable ObSec blob wins games because you can't get them off of objective markers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 14:46:54
That's not what's being discussed, though. Doing well when everyone is just playing whatever and going to have a good time - that doesn't matter, since you can't talk about that from a tactical perspective. If you're going to discuss competition and tournament play, the only thing worth discussing is how it competes against top level lists. I can throw random models in my bag and beat a player who just brought nothing but Tactical Marines "because he thinks it's cool", but you have to actually try to do good against things like Eldar/Ynnari, Imperial soup, or any of the other meta builds. And that's what needs to be discussed.
I was only giving insight that everyones Meta is different meaning everyone brings different lists to accommodate to their Meta. E.g. Therions Meta looks more "spam and soup" orientatied while my Meta is more "bring what you like".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 15:06:33
I keep seeing people mention the lord and artillery models, just making sure people notice his ability only applies to the 'Infantry' keyword.
Also wouldn't 2x tesla be better on the TB then 1 PC for GEQ? Or is it a matter of point cost / efficiency?
----
Does the abysall staffs effect still work on low leadership model hordes that get artificial leadership like Nids / Orks?
…Since the 'Phaerons will' strategy is use a characters MWBD ability for a second time in a turn, does that mean Imotekhs version that lets him MWBD 2 squads in a turn would let him MWBD 4 units if this was used? Or would he only get one extra use of mwbd for a total of 3 if the ability just lets him use the mwbd ability a second time?
Is the orb of eternity just a +1 rez orb, or is it Use the +1 effect once per battle and then it is still a rez orb so you can use that effect after?
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
That's not what's being discussed, though. Doing well when everyone is just playing whatever and going to have a good time - that doesn't matter, since you can't talk about that from a tactical perspective. If you're going to discuss competition and tournament play, the only thing worth discussing is how it competes against top level lists. I can throw random models in my bag and beat a player who just brought nothing but Tactical Marines "because he thinks it's cool", but you have to actually try to do good against things like Eldar/Ynnari, Imperial soup, or any of the other meta builds. And that's what needs to be discussed.
I was only giving insight that everyones Meta is different meaning everyone brings different lists to accommodate to their Meta. E.g. Therions Meta looks more "spam and soup" orientatied while my Meta is more "bring what you like".
That's true, and you should cater a bit to your meta, but when talking Tactica at large, you have to discuss "The" Meta (i.e. what is winning GTs), which is largely Spam and Soup.
Ive personally minced poxerwalker hordes, sure there is a HUGE poxwalker horde to deal with at the end, but its not really that threatening IMO. If youve got the dakka, youve got the answer.
How large? Because the game is based around Objectives 90% of the time, not just Kill Points, and a huge, nigh-unkillable ObSec blob wins games because you can't get them off of objective markers.
The bigger the better, actually. You can take a durable(ish) unit and charge the outer ends of the Poxwalkers and force them to pile in -OFF- the objective. You don't always have to kill the unit to get it to move off of an objective. Selective charging can work too. Models HAVE to pile in towards the closest enemy unit.
Although I agree Poxwalker hordes are a difficult match-up for most.
-
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 15:21:30
Ive personally minced poxerwalker hordes, sure there is a HUGE poxwalker horde to deal with at the end, but its not really that threatening IMO. If youve got the dakka, youve got the answer.
How large? Because the game is based around Objectives 90% of the time, not just Kill Points, and a huge, nigh-unkillable ObSec blob wins games because you can't get them off of objective markers.
The bigger the better, actually. You can take a durable(ish) unit and charge the outer ends of the Poxwalkers and force them to pile in -OFF- the objective.
You don't always have to kill the unit to get it to move off of an objective. Selective charging can work too. Models HAVE to pile in towards the closest enemy unit.
Although I agree Poxwalker hordes are a difficult match-up for most.
-
I don't think that works the way you think it does. You have to pile in to the closest target, but you don't have to opt to pile in. You can remain stationary, and then on top of that, just walk out of combat the next turn because it's 8th.
That's true, and you should cater a bit to your meta, but when talking Tactica at large, you have to discuss "The" Meta (i.e. what is winning GTs), which is largely Spam and Soup.
I don't think that's quite true.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to talk about a bunch of things that aren't relevant to winning major tournaments in a tactics thread, such as:
1) I have this (generally understood to be suboptimal) unit I want to use: what is the best way to use it and what synergies does it have with other units?
2) My local meta differs from what you see at major tournaments in ways A, B, and C: what would work best for that?
and even:
3) I want a solid list that avoids certain things my local group is likely to respond to poorly: how does this change what a good army looks like?
Like, these are all things that allow for reasonable discussion, bringing in math and people's experience with units, about how to win with Necrons. There's a lot of room between "all we should talk about is what can win GTs" and "min units of Warriors work great... oh did I forget to mention my local group is super casual?". You only really have a problem when someone is insisting that units are good in a context where they're not, or when they're not clear about the context for their analysis or questions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 15:26:13
Lance845 wrote: So didn' they say that the necron dex was going to be the most drastic change thus far?
It doesn't look like it. We gained a new kind of warscythe (I think?) and crypteks gained the canoptek cloak.
Stratagems are the only fix to off world deepstrike/deployment from nightscythes and monoliths. Preatorians still don't have the dynasty keyword so they miss out on pretty much every stratagem and code. Flayed ones still have a complete gak weapon with no ap. RPs are the same.
All the problems still exist. Some even got worse.
What problems got worse?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also everyone needs to quit whining that Flayed Ones have no AP.
That. Is. Not. Their. Job.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 15:26:52
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
That's not what's being discussed, though. Doing well when everyone is just playing whatever and going to have a good time - that doesn't matter, since you can't talk about that from a tactical perspective. If you're going to discuss competition and tournament play, the only thing worth discussing is how it competes against top level lists. I can throw random models in my bag and beat a player who just brought nothing but Tactical Marines "because he thinks it's cool", but you have to actually try to do good against things like Eldar/Ynnari, Imperial soup, or any of the other meta builds. And that's what needs to be discussed.
I was only giving insight that everyones Meta is different meaning everyone brings different lists to accommodate to their Meta. E.g. Therions Meta looks more "spam and soup" orientatied while my Meta is more "bring what you like".
That's true, and you should cater a bit to your meta, but when talking Tactica at large, you have to discuss "The" Meta (i.e. what is winning GTs), which is largely Spam and Soup.
My Meta has changed bit though if I am being honest. It is a lot more competitive since the new year as a lot of people got new armies for Christmas and what not. A lot of the newbs that started 8th all asked the ETC and Ireland players what they should buy and how to make their lists "unkillable". As of the last tournament the top 10 lists included - 3 Mortarion + Magus w/ Poxwalkers and Cultists, 2 IG soups, 3 Eldar/Ynnari soups with D.reapers, shining Spears spam and 2 lists that mainly ran Tank Commanders, Guards men's and Tarox Prime spam.
I think that when we are talking about "The" Meta though it should be more clear . Otherwise we are going to have "my Meta" vs "your Meta" situations which doesn't benefit this thread much.
Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Just stop man. You're embarassing yourself now. Just put your money where your mouth is and post your list. There's some brutally top tier lists there that nearly cannot lose more than marginally like the Poxwalkers, and you come off here from your non-competitive local store meta saying your Space Marines would 20-0 them all. Hilarious really. This is what message boards are good for. Comedy.
So much salt
You should realise every Meta is different. While yours seems to run soup and spam a lot of other places don't. My Meta for example is full of people who run what they like. I only see soups and spams when Team Ireland and Northern Ireland players are participating in tournaments or practicing against each other at my local club.
If a tournament in my area has 60ish people playing then it's usually 6-8 people bring spam and soup and the other 52-4 people just do "rule of cool" and play to have a great time.
That's not what's being discussed, though. Doing well when everyone is just playing whatever and going to have a good time - that doesn't matter, since you can't talk about that from a tactical perspective. If you're going to discuss competition and tournament play, the only thing worth discussing is how it competes against top level lists. I can throw random models in my bag and beat a player who just brought nothing but Tactical Marines "because he thinks it's cool", but you have to actually try to do good against things like Eldar/Ynnari, Imperial soup, or any of the other meta builds. And that's what needs to be discussed.
Ive personally minced poxerwalker hordes, sure there is a HUGE poxwalker horde to deal with at the end, but its not really that threatening IMO. If youve got the dakka, youve got the answer.
How large? Because the game is based around Objectives 90% of the time, not just Kill Points, and a huge, nigh-unkillable ObSec blob wins games because you can't get them off of objective markers.
I think it took me about 3 turns to clear everything that wasnt poxwalkers, it was basically morty, some DS termies, FBD's PBC' etc, 20 poxwalkers and like 80 cultists?
One fireraptor oneshot morty T1, the other a tank, then spent the next turn finishing off the tanks and PBC. Twas Dawn of War so my aggressors popped out top of t2, but I body blocked them with the tank for alot of LoS blocking. I spend turn 3 killing the cultists and the like, i wanted that horde nice at max size (was gauging the firepower of my list for a team tournament).
Needless to say it wasnt long before those poor poxwalkers were gone multiple damage weapons on the fire raptors, a dakka repulsor and double tapping aggressors with full rerolls is not scared of a horde of any kind.
This has derailed.
My point was, yes necrons may struggle against horde lists, but so do all the elite armies to certain extents. 210 ork boys won a 86 person tournament last year because noone expected a horde on that level, theres a ATC team list that has 300 cultists and 300 poxwalkers in it.
If you have spam in any extreme they are designed to be anti-meta and do well against a certain % of lists due to how awkward they are to face.
And yeah, if your meta is wholly ridiculous spam lists like posted above, then necrons may struggle, but if you have a meta thats 80% marines, eldar, custodes etc, your going to have a whale of a time.
Conversley, if you build a necron list that can go hard against hordes like that, youre stuffed if you go against more elite lists that you just aren't kitted out to fight.
I played my first game with the new codex vs Alaitoc Eldar (tournament list with a lot of Dark Reapers) last night, and wanted to share what I found out, with a quick ranking of the new stuff.
I ran two outrider, a Sautekh / Nephrekh soup for maximum mobility.
Dynasty codes: 1. Nephrekh
Worked great on my Wraiths which gave them a 18” movement plus possible charge due to adaptive subroutines. Also 16” move on scarabs/Cloaktek is very handy. The star was the deepstrike stratagem for my destroyers of course, which makes up for their main weakness: Getting shot down before doing anything.
2.Sautekh
My Tesseract Ark and Tomb Sentinel benefited the most as moving and shooting without penalties was ace. Also the possibility to advance Gauss Immortals and still shoot was nice. I took the Dynasty Warlord Trait which resulted in two extra CP -very cool.
Units: 1. Destroyers (4reg and 1 heavy)
The MVPs. I deepstriked them in turn one, and they went to town! They crippled a hemlock wraithfighter (he only survived because my opponent rolled 3 sixes for saves) in the first turn, and vaporized a unit of six Wraithguard in the second -courtesy of the Extermination Protocols. They finally live up to their name! I'm definitely running two full units in the future.
2. Cloaktek
I ran two (my only HQs), and due to their 10”+w6” and 16” movement they could always be where they where needed the most. They where healing vehicles, and boosting RP all over the place, which made my whole Army much more resilient. Autoinclude.
3. Wraiths (6 with claws)
My opponent got the first turn, and proceeded to shoot everything he had on my poor bugs. To make matters worse he enchanted them with two powers which gave a -1 on invuls, and allowed him to reroll woundrolls for shots targeting them. By sheer luck one Wraith survived with one wound remaining. This alone made them almost worthwhile since the rest of my army was basically untouched. I had a Cloaktek nearby and used the repair subroutines which saw 3 Wraiths get back up. I then used them in my turn to basically move back over half the board and wreck the faces of a group of Fireraptors and an Exarch who deepstriked into my deployment zone. Although they couldt really show what they should be capable of i was quite satisfied.
4. Scarabs
My secret match winners. Super fast with Nephrekh, they constantly where getting objectives, harassing scouts and denied deepstrikes. The nerfed 4+ to hit didnt bother me at all.
Honorable mention:
Tomb Sentinel
Had only room for one, but with the Sauthekh code he managed to single handedly destroy a wave serpent and kill a farseer on bike. My second one is getting ready...
Stratagems: 1. Extermination Protocols
Super powerful. I would say already one of the most powerful strats we have. Probably won me the game.
2. Translocation Crypt
Nothing really to say about this. Makes Nephrekh almost mandatory.
2. Adaptive Subroutines
The increased threatrange for the wraiths is phenomenal, making it very possible that they are in youre opponents face turn one.
I loved the high mobility of my army, and I didnt even bring Tomb Blades. The Immortals where the only unit with a move characteristic below 10”. This enabled me to shift my forces very quickly and i could adapt to all kinds of shenanigans my opponent threw at me, while constantly replenishing my ranks. After Round 3 I had two thirds of his Army destroyed or rendered useless, while I had lost a unit of scarabs the Tomb Sentinel and most of my wraiths.
Overall a good start, looking forward to testing the c'tans and TB next time.
Oh, and I definitely need more CP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 17:17:38
Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Just stop man. You're embarassing yourself now. Just put your money where your mouth is and post your list. There's some brutally top tier lists there that nearly cannot lose more than marginally like the Poxwalkers, and you come off here from your non-competitive local store meta saying your Space Marines would 20-0 them all. Hilarious really. This is what message boards are good for. Comedy.
Easy
Gman
2x fire raptors
repulsor full of aggressors
tiggy
scouts
Zimko wrote:
Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Automatically Appended Next Post: Most of those lists have like 2 units that can do some damage, kill the bikes, or the death company, or the oblits and those armies kill like 1 Unit a turn, with all the rest of the shooting. Slaneesh cultists are different.
Also, yeah in a tournament you are going to get a bad matchup, and if we can’t deal with chaff that well then maybe that’s our weakness. A triple superheavy is the other end of the spectrum but again, they don’t win tournaments (at least not around here).
What has been shown are two extreme examples, super hordey and super elite, were in the middle and have tools against everything.
those bikes have character protection. The death company will deep strike and have 3d6 charge. the oblits will also deep strike and poxwalkers will fill the board, taking all the objectives (that's a poxwalker apocolypse list. For every cultist you kill, they get a poxwalker, and the poxwalkers are untargetable.) and the poxwalkers will become a threat with all those character buffs.
You're dismissing these lists as if they're easy because you personally haven't seen them win anything. But they're a real threat.
I know the bikes have character protection, but they have to break sometime, its kinda hard to win a fight against aggressors with VoT and null zone up.... but i know what you are saying, they are a threat, im not denying it. All im saying is those lists hemorage KP, to the point that even if the bikes managed to kill a few units, once their gone its very easy to kill everything else.
Ive seen 3d6 +1 double bloodletter bombs fail with skarbrand behind them... and auspex scan would deny them the charge if they want to survive.
Oblits are scary, but again, they get one round of shooting off, can they kill 2 fire raptors with -1/2 to hit? Doubt they have that much dakka.
Ive personally minced poxerwalker hordes, sure there is a HUGE poxwalker horde to deal with at the end, but its not really that threatening IMO. If youve got the dakka, youve got the answer.
I think we're losing perspective here. This is a Necron thread and I don't think Necrons have the ability to take on such lists. Is your argument that such lists are null and void because you can come up with a space marine list that beats them? Cause I still see these lists all the time.
Requizen wrote: I don't think that works the way you think it does. You have to pile in to the closest target, but you don't have to opt to pile in. You can remain stationary, and then on top of that, just walk out of combat the next turn because it's 8th.
Indeed you are correct that pile-in is optional. Certainly a major reason I don' play competitively anymore. That really seems broken that large infantry blobs cannot be dealt with other than killing them outright.
Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Just stop man. You're embarassing yourself now. Just put your money where your mouth is and post your list. There's some brutally top tier lists there that nearly cannot lose more than marginally like the Poxwalkers, and you come off here from your non-competitive local store meta saying your Space Marines would 20-0 them all. Hilarious really. This is what message boards are good for. Comedy.
Easy
Gman
2x fire raptors
repulsor full of aggressors
tiggy
scouts
Zimko wrote:
Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Automatically Appended Next Post: Most of those lists have like 2 units that can do some damage, kill the bikes, or the death company, or the oblits and those armies kill like 1 Unit a turn, with all the rest of the shooting. Slaneesh cultists are different.
Also, yeah in a tournament you are going to get a bad matchup, and if we can’t deal with chaff that well then maybe that’s our weakness. A triple superheavy is the other end of the spectrum but again, they don’t win tournaments (at least not around here).
What has been shown are two extreme examples, super hordey and super elite, were in the middle and have tools against everything.
those bikes have character protection. The death company will deep strike and have 3d6 charge. the oblits will also deep strike and poxwalkers will fill the board, taking all the objectives (that's a poxwalker apocolypse list. For every cultist you kill, they get a poxwalker, and the poxwalkers are untargetable.) and the poxwalkers will become a threat with all those character buffs.
You're dismissing these lists as if they're easy because you personally haven't seen them win anything. But they're a real threat.
I know the bikes have character protection, but they have to break sometime, its kinda hard to win a fight against aggressors with VoT and null zone up.... but i know what you are saying, they are a threat, im not denying it. All im saying is those lists hemorage KP, to the point that even if the bikes managed to kill a few units, once their gone its very easy to kill everything else.
Ive seen 3d6 +1 double bloodletter bombs fail with skarbrand behind them... and auspex scan would deny them the charge if they want to survive.
Oblits are scary, but again, they get one round of shooting off, can they kill 2 fire raptors with -1/2 to hit? Doubt they have that much dakka.
Ive personally minced poxerwalker hordes, sure there is a HUGE poxwalker horde to deal with at the end, but its not really that threatening IMO. If youve got the dakka, youve got the answer.
I think we're losing perspective here. This is a Necron thread and I don't think Necrons have the ability to take on such lists. Is your argument that such lists are null and void because you can come up with a space marine list that beats them? Cause I still see these lists all the time.
That list he posted is a blast from the past 2017 tournament list that wins 20-0 as much as it loses 20-0, making it a non-starter. But you're absolutely right, the sequence of events in the conversation went bizarrely like this:
Statement: Necrons don't need to worry about GEQ because people don't play GEQ at tournaments
Reply: Here's many different take on all comers lists with 200 ish models that are top tier ETC quality armies (some played by ETC regulars by the way)
Anecdotal Retort: Ha! I have a Space Marine list in my back pocket that can kill hordes!
I didn't reply because a fish like that doesn't really deserve more attention.
Conclusion: Necrons do in fact need to worry about hordes, and they need to worry about super-heavy spam, and they need to worry about 8 deep striking Hive Tyrants, 8 Dark Talons, 240 Cultists turning into Poxwalkers, Imperial superhero spams, deep strike bombs and what not. They need to worry about everything, just like everyone else.
Odrankt wrote:
You should realise every Meta is different
Hey, I never said I don't know that. The game looks different in the ITC or ETC or rulebook rule sets (Guys here talk about some list leaking kill points when its for a tournament that uses KP only in 2 out of 5 missions). I took issue with sweeping statements that cross all borders and boundaries and are blatantly untrue. We have a down under hero saying here he can sweep a top tier field with basically a Stormraven spam from 2017, when he doesn't even know the missions or the rule set, and clearly doesn't understand the power or function of any of the lists posted. Me not understanding his meta has nothing to do with his comments.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 15:59:55
That's not what's being discussed, though. Doing well when everyone is just playing whatever and going to have a good time - that doesn't matter, since you can't talk about that from a tactical perspective. If you're going to discuss competition and tournament play, the only thing worth discussing is how it competes against top level lists. I can throw random models in my bag and beat a player who just brought nothing but Tactical Marines "because he thinks it's cool", but you have to actually try to do good against things like Eldar/Ynnari, Imperial soup, or any of the other meta builds. And that's what needs to be discussed.
I was only giving insight that everyones Meta is different meaning everyone brings different lists to accommodate to their Meta. E.g. Therions Meta looks more "spam and soup" orientatied while my Meta is more "bring what you like".
That's true, and you should cater a bit to your meta, but when talking Tactica at large, you have to discuss "The" Meta (i.e. what is winning GTs), which is largely Spam and Soup.
Which is pointless. Those GT's are all garbage lol. Half the player packets are full of house ruled or bogus callings or they have patched the missions to oblivion. On top of that, those games get a max of 2 turns in. GEQ are running amuck currently BECAUSE so many suckers cater to that environment.
Currently players in those environments know exactly how much time a game has, exactly how the missions will be scored and laughably use set objective placement. One of the MOST tactical elements in the game, and these mega events removed it. It;s a farce, all you need to do currently is hop to the codex that gets the most bodies for the cheapest cost and has a reliable way to advance deploy.
I have played those lists in pick up games where I can't be slow played using random book missions and utterly removed them. Guardsmen are always good for screening, but currently hordes are ruining events. That needs to be separated here. Playing ITC is not playing 40k. It's like Pathfinder, similar, but modified heavily. They tell you where objectives are, the game will last 6 turn (which is a joke when they can't make it to 3) and on top of that they home brew mission objectives entirely. The reaper is the most awful designed objective I have ever seen for example. Writing a mission where taking a heavy weapon team circumvents the point? Play testers eh?
Requizen wrote: I don't think that works the way you think it does. You have to pile in to the closest target, but you don't have to opt to pile in. You can remain stationary, and then on top of that, just walk out of combat the next turn because it's 8th.
Indeed you are correct that pile-in is optional. Certainly a major reason I don' play competitively anymore. That really seems broken that large infantry blobs cannot be dealt with other than killing them outright.
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Indeed, but missions and format are also major factors. But apparently we should beat are heads against a brick wall all day in here looking for a way to remove 200 GEQ in a 2-3 turn game... I'll save everyone some time, this book doesn't have a way to do that, on top of that, it forfeits board control every game. This faction, like many others cannot beat that format. So we should move on because the solution isn't going to magically appear.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 16:23:22
You seem to have a lot of rage towards the ITC format despite its obvious popularity in the US.
That said, where I play in Europe we don’t use ITC for anything (We use rulebook, Chapter Approved, Beta rules and the ETCFAQ). We use Eternal War and Maelstrom missions simultaneously (2 sets of objectives, Eternal War and the Tactical Objectives). Our tournaments have more time allocated per game than in the US and 95% are played to natural completion.
I’m frankly amused by your hostility. All I did was point out an obvious flaw in the Necron strengths and weaknesses -analysis. The reality is that hordes exist and they are very competitive and flexible. Everyone could’ve just been polite and say that my concerns about Necrons don’t apply to them because their meta is different, but instead people went to war against the standard tournament meta like it’s my fault personally that competitive people like to push their army lists to the extreme limits.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 16:47:39
Red Corsair wrote: I really think folks are getting carried away with the guardsmen talk. There a screen, mortars and las guns will not be killing any significant portion of our army. Luckily we have units that pull double duty. DDA, which are all around pretty amazing I'd say. Plus wraiths can either float right past the screen or at worst in a long deployment, dig in with them, then in the next turn move on.
At this point though. I think there needs to be less theory hammer and more play testing. For example I am thinking our best builds won't bother with troops at all. You only need CP's IMHO for reserving destroyers, then using extermination protocols, and maybe 1 CP for the Canoptek advance and charge. I'd say 5-6 CP's is probably fine. Trying to farm CP's just seems to require taking less efficient units which then require more units and CP's to fix so why bother, just take the things that work already IMO.
Of course maybe it will turn out that our troops will pull more weight then we are guessing, but they haven't changed much from the index so I am guessing it's a safe assumption that our troops are still kind of matchup dependent.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. GEQ will not be fielded en mass, besides a few unique (rare) builds. Im not overly scared of them, especially when 50% of tesla immortals shots proc an extra 2 hits and hit on 2+ rr'ing 1's......, 10 Timmortals will put out a prodigious amount of firepower. A vault killing 1/3 of a GEQ blob from a single power alone, yet the 20 s7 tesla that can proc on 5's..... with that same GEQ blob unable to do anything to T7 28w. I dont know everyone else's meta but here on the west coast of Australia its a lot more elite, there have been a few select cases where a horde has done really well, but for the most part huge hordes are dying out due to the large number of things that can mince them.
This is what's misleading about tactica discussions. People who have absolutely zero understanding of the competitive meta are posting sweeping statements about what will or will not be fielded.
So, I'm attending a 5 game GT this weekend with my Imperials, here's a few lists for you to think about (Tournament lists went public two days before the event begins).
I posted only some of the choice lists. Are you still prepared to say Necrons don't need to concern themselves about GEQ? It's one of the most laughable statements I've seen yet. The truth about the tournament game is that you need to prepare against everything, and mostly you can't, and you'd be happy to get some luck with your matchups. This same tournament has multiple triple superheavy lists too, which are quite the polar opposite. My list is an Imperial soup with Astra Militarum, Adeptus Custodes, Dark Angels, Sisters, and Assassins.
Spoiler:
== Battalion Detachment, Imperium ==
HQ1: Celestine (200), 2 Geminae Superia (50), Order of Our Martyred Lady [250]
HQ2: Sammael in Sableclaw (216), Dark Angels [216]
HQ3: Ravenwing Talonmaster (123), Twin Heavy Bolter (17), Twin Assault Cannon (44), Power Sword (4),
Dark Angels [188]
Elite1: Platoon Commander (20), Warlord, Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila, Vostroyan [20]
Elite2: Culexus Assassin (85), Officio Assassinorum [85]
Troop1: Scout Squad (55), Dark Angels [55]
Troop2: Scout Squad (55), Dark Angels [55]
Troop3: Scout Squad (55), Dark Angels [55]
Fast1: Seraphim Squad (55), 4 Inferno Pistols (36), Order of Our Martyred Lady [91]
Heavy1: Heavy Weapons Team (18), 3 Mortars (15), Vostroyan [33]
== Supreme Command Detachment, Adeptus Custodes ==
HQ4: Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike (150), Hurricane Bolter (10) [160]
HQ5: Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike (150), Hurricane Bolter (10) [160]
HQ6: Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike (150), Hurricane Bolter (10) [160]
== Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, Astra Militarum, Vostroyan ==
LOW1: Shadowsword (390), 3 Twin Heavy Bolters (42), 2 Lascannons (40), Vostroyan [472]
You can stick your 10 Immortals where the sun doesn't shine with these lists.
This. I was going to say the same thing but as soon as I read his comment it kind of told me he was just playing for fun or the players at his shop just dont know how to make good list. I remain scared.
Which is pointless. Those GT's are all garbage lol. Half the player packets are full of house ruled or bogus callings or they have patched the missions to oblivion. On top of that, those games get a max of 2 turns in. GEQ are running amuck currently BECAUSE so many suckers cater to that environment.
Currently players in those environments know exactly how much time a game has, exactly how the missions will be scored and laughably use set objective placement. One of the MOST tactical elements in the game, and these mega events removed it. It;s a farce, all you need to do currently is hop to the codex that gets the most bodies for the cheapest cost and has a reliable way to advance deploy.
I have played those lists in pick up games where I can't be slow played using random book missions and utterly removed them. Guardsmen are always good for screening, but currently hordes are ruining events. That needs to be separated here. Playing ITC is not playing 40k. It's like Pathfinder, similar, but modified heavily. They tell you where objectives are, the game will last 6 turn (which is a joke when they can't make it to 3) and on top of that they home brew mission objectives entirely. The reaper is the most awful designed objective I have ever seen for example. Writing a mission where taking a heavy weapon team circumvents the point? Play testers eh?
Look dude, you might be a good player, but it's hard to take anyone seriously when you say things like "tournament lists are a joke, I can beat them all". Where are your GT victories? Got any podium finishes from 50-100+ person events? Me neither, but I'm not the one calling out the people who do crush tournaments on a consistent basis.
If you think the only reason people win events is because of slow play, you've never seriously competed at a top table.
Nobody's talking about monoliths?
Monoliths won't be killed by GEQ. And they can beam out flayed ones in charge distance.
You still have enough points for DDA and other stuff that will bring down stuff that can hurt your monolith.
Therion wrote: You seem to have a lot of rage towards the ITC format despite its obvious popularity in the US.
That said, where I play in Europe we don’t use ITC for anything (We use rulebook, Chapter Approved, Beta rules and the ETCFAQ). We use Eternal War and Maelstrom missions simultaneously (2 sets of objectives, Eternal War and the Tactical Objectives). Our tournaments have more time allocated per game than in the US and 95% are played to natural completion.
I’m frankly amused by your hostility. All I did was point out an obvious flaw in the Necron strengths and weaknesses -analysis. The reality is that hordes exist and they are very competitive and flexible. Everyone could’ve just been polite and say that my concerns about Necrons don’t apply to them because their meta is different, but instead people went to war against the standard tournament meta like it’s my fault personally that competitive people like to push their army lists to the extreme limits.
Please don't start to assume my mental or emotional state. You just displayed some of the rudest behavior toward another poster within the past couple pages, I found that remarkable since we are discussing a game played with space skeletons.
I agree completely the Necrons have an obvious flaw based on deployment and a lack of screening, your not adding anything new when that was discussed several pages back lol. It;s also not ever going to magically change, so you either move on, and look for alternative ways to play and as said already, stop worring about GEQ. Or shelf/sell the army. Not everyone in here can afford to play multiple armies like you or I, or wants to, so maybe let them discuss things without labasting them about how some global meta is going to crush them lol.
Da w - Even if it had QS (which it currently doesn't) i've had a monolith plinked down in a turn by single damage weapons. He looked me in the eyes the entire time and had his friend confirm the hits and wounds. *shivers*
/Sarc end
Hmm, wait~ did monolith go from 4+ to 3+ armor?
But yeah thankfully with the new strat I can either redeploy the mono with Deciever and then emergency port my guys out if they do kill it, or can drop it to get in a turn of fire and then emergency port in stuff when they do take it out, or port a unit from across the battlefield to the monolith with Dimensional Corridor. Will probably try it both ways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 17:23:46
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
Which is pointless. Those GT's are all garbage lol. Half the player packets are full of house ruled or bogus callings or they have patched the missions to oblivion. On top of that, those games get a max of 2 turns in. GEQ are running amuck currently BECAUSE so many suckers cater to that environment.
Currently players in those environments know exactly how much time a game has, exactly how the missions will be scored and laughably use set objective placement. One of the MOST tactical elements in the game, and these mega events removed it. It;s a farce, all you need to do currently is hop to the codex that gets the most bodies for the cheapest cost and has a reliable way to advance deploy.
I have played those lists in pick up games where I can't be slow played using random book missions and utterly removed them. Guardsmen are always good for screening, but currently hordes are ruining events. That needs to be separated here. Playing ITC is not playing 40k. It's like Pathfinder, similar, but modified heavily. They tell you where objectives are, the game will last 6 turn (which is a joke when they can't make it to 3) and on top of that they home brew mission objectives entirely. The reaper is the most awful designed objective I have ever seen for example. Writing a mission where taking a heavy weapon team circumvents the point? Play testers eh?
Look dude, you might be a good player, but it's hard to take anyone seriously when you say things like "tournament lists are a joke, I can beat them all". Where are your GT victories? Got any podium finishes from 50-100+ person events? Me neither, but I'm not the one calling out the people who do crush tournaments on a consistent basis.
If you think the only reason people win events is because of slow play, you've never seriously competed at a top table.
I didn't say I can beat them all. Where did I say that? I also never said slow play was the sole factor, so please stop trying to speak for me. Slow play is THE biggest talking point currently btw, it may not be the sole factor, but it's currently one of the biggest.
BTW the biggest tournament in the world just concluded a little over a month ago and GEQ were there in force but 2 made it to the top 8 and both were bizarre builds unlike what people are discussing. There was even a primaris blood angel list in the top 8 wrecking face.
Edit: I'll add, those players winning are very good because they are aware of the format and how to gain an edge. Your the one that seems to think that net lists are where the buck stops. I am telling you it stops where it does based on the format.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 17:26:38
12,000 
multiple damage weapons on the fire raptors, a dakka repulsor and double tapping aggressors with full rerolls is not scared of a horde of any kind. 
6000+
2500
2000
2000
~1660
