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Psychopomp wrote:Better. They could still win me back if they do this a few more times. I'm very frustrated, because I want to be a part of this, but it's also got to be worth my while. Maybe an Early Bird instead of the Starter Box. I honestly don't care about the game, it's the minis that interest me, and the freedom of choice could help.

'If they do this a few more times' Unreal behaviour.

Psychopomp wrote:No one has made any such claim that I've seen. Certainly not me, if that's who you've referred to.

I'm just one potential backer who gave feedback. And when I left, I explained why. Fireforge can keep adding value and maybe bring me back in but it'll be their decision to do so. I don't dictate their actions any more than they can dictate what I do with my money.

But there's still a chance in the next two weeks they'll keep adding some value and hit a threshold where I'll come back in. But there's a chance they won't. There's a lot of competition in this market right now, and they don't just have to offer me a better deal, they've got to offer me something I think beats other deals on offer.

You're not the same as a potential new backer. You joined it based on what was offered from the get go, have added plenty of 'contribution' in Fireforge's KS comment section, made a declaration of withdrawing and now are making a big deal about the level of value not being sufficient yet for you to come back in.

If you want to back Fireforge's Kickstarter please do so. If you don't want to back it then that's fine too. But please don't join and add any negativity into their comments section, Cheers. Oh and not derailing the discussion going forward here would also be cool.

I still don't understand where these accusations of negativity come from. I want this Kickstarter to do better. I want to see more value for all backers, to bring in more backers, and for some reason, I keep having to explain why it's going to take more rewards to get people like me off the fence, that Kickstarter isn't a fancy pre-order or Patreon system, it's an investor-investee connection tool.

I dunno. I guess any criticism, constructive or otherwise, must be negative. Were the comments all supposed to be, "Three days of stalling are great, and the doubts I'm starting to have that we'll see adequate value to keep me in are just a sign of happiness and optimism to come!"? If any backers - potential or otherwise - have any dobuts or concerns, should they just shut their mouths and walk away? Because that'll really help blow through the stretch goals, there.

I mean, Fireforge obviously independently took a look at the numbers and came to a similar conclusion. Other companies offer better deals than this, so it can't be impossible. I dunno. The "agree or shut up" attitude has burned me out. I'm done. Have fun accepting whatever you get. I'll just wait til retail, if I buy then.

I hope Fireforge would prefer for us to tell them how to get our money rather than for us all to walk away and never give them money at all. Customers who haggle are customers who are engaged.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I hope Fireforge would prefer for us to tell them how to get our money rather than for us all to walk away and never give them money at all. Customers who haggle are customers who are engaged.

Yes and it's a great thing to see such positivity on the KS comment section over the past 24 hours with feedback being engaged in by Fireforge while not being lost in a series of long egocentric voluminous posts...it's great

 Psychopomp wrote:

I still don't understand where these accusations of negativity come from. I want this Kickstarter to do better. I want to see more value for all backers, to bring in more backers, and for some reason, I keep having to explain why it's going to take more rewards to get people like me off the fence, that Kickstarter isn't a fancy pre-order or Patreon system, it's an investor-investee connection tool.

I dunno. I guess any criticism, constructive or otherwise, must be negative. Were the comments all supposed to be, "Three days of stalling are great, and the doubts I'm starting to have that we'll see adequate value to keep me in are just a sign of happiness and optimism to come!"? If any backers - potential or otherwise - have any dobuts or concerns, should they just shut their mouths and walk away? Because that'll really help blow through the stretch goals, there.

I mean, Fireforge obviously independently took a look at the numbers and came to a similar conclusion. Other companies offer better deals than this, so it can't be impossible. I dunno. The "agree or shut up" attitude has burned me out. I'm done. Have fun accepting whatever you get. I'll just wait til retail, if I buy then.

How are you drawing a distinction between an investor-invested relationship and a patron style preorder? They’re the same thing. Companies/creators use KS to gauge demand for the product they want to create. It’s the same thing companies that don’t use KS do. Before GW produces a new kit they calculate if the expected sales will justify the outlay of capital to create the kit. With KS creators are setting goals to ensure that guarantee enough sales to ensure successful product launch. Whether I back a KS run by Mierce or Red Box Games or Mantic or CMoN the product I am ordering via KS will also eventually be available through normal retail sales, I’m pledging support via KS to make sure the product gets made and I get the order I want, call it an investment or a preorder, it’s the same thing.

Nobody should have an issue with whether or not other people like a KS enough to back it. Support or don’t, make whatever comments you deem appropriate be it praise or criticism. The issue that seems to be the crux of the debate in this thread, as I see it, is that the value of a KS is subjective not objective. If you don’t think a KS has enough value for you that’s fine but somebody else may believe the value is there and that doesn’t mean one of the two is wrong. I don’t want/need a lot of new miniatures regardless of how awesome or cheap they might be so pledging this KS to get 3 boxes for $56 plus shipping with a few stretch goals if it funds is plenty of value for me. I’ll get some stuff I want without spending too much and I have plenty of stuff to paint while I wait for it. Other people may want two full armies at a good discount and that’s fine that’s part of the reason for different pledge levels. The world don’t move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you may not be right for some.

There’s a whole host of reasons why this KS may not fund or may just barely fund and and the perceived value of the higher pledge levels is certainly one of them. There’s also a fairly soft market for fantasy mass battle games in 28-32mm scale, that’s part of the reason WHFB doesn’t exist anymore and AOS uses round bases and Shadespire exists.

Prestor Jon wrote:

Nobody should have an issue with whether or not other people like a KS enough to back it. Support or don’t, make whatever comments you deem appropriate be it praise or criticism. The issue that seems to be the crux of the debate in this thread, as I see it, is that the value of a KS is subjective not objective. If you don’t think a KS has enough value for you that’s fine but somebody else may believe the value is there and that doesn’t mean one of the two is wrong.

Here, here. People should realize that someone giving their personal feeling about value for them is an acceptable thing to state, not an invitation to lose their ****. And just as importantly people need to differentiate between when people are speaking to their personal opinion about the value and the overall market reality of value, which looks like this:



Two entirely different things, and one is very objective even though it's made up of subjective and semi-subjective opinions.

When you look at a kickstarter, at least this one, the rewards are clearly spelled out.

A) This is what is offered if we fund.
B) If we exceed fuding, you gets this
C) if we really exceed funding you get this as well

So, when you make the decision to back, the rewards are clearly stated. You back it already knowing the level of value you will get and hopefully made that decision when you decided to back it.

I don't understand backing something when you know the value before hand and then making comments to try and get the project creator to change what they are offering. They told you in advance what the offer was. It is your choice to take that offer or not.

There have been projects that I was interested in but what was offered was not what I wanted... So I didn't back them. I did not back and then post multiple messages in the comments to try and force the creator to add more. I don't know that just seems odd to me.

Constructive criticism is fine, but after a certain point of repeating the same thing it does not seem constructive.

I, for one, clearly applaud FF for adding an extra box of your choice and one sprue of your choice for orders over 100. Heck, even a sprue of your choice for orders less than 100.

Although I backed at the EB pledge from the get go, I am feeling very happy with the money I am spending now to get this funded.

Sure, there is tremendous competition out there for your hobby dollar. Spend it where you want for what you need - and I need me some of those zombie warriors!!

frankelee wrote:

Here, here. People should realize that someone giving their personal feeling about value for them is an acceptable thing to state, not an invitation to lose their ****. And just as importantly people need to differentiate between when people are speaking to their personal opinion about the value and the overall market reality of value, which looks like this:
.

The key here is that the people posting comments about the value of kickstarter being not good enough never stated it was their personnal feeling, but rather keep posting arguments about it being an objective statement.

That's why they got such reactions from other backers thinking it was already good value for them.

I completely agree with what Prestor Jon explained.

Just backed for Soldier. Was always intending to, but just too lazy to get around to it.

That extra sprue is really a solid bonus to me. Now I can get everything I want with the soldier pledge plus a cavalry sprue.

Hopefully people don't actually need to say 'IN MY OPINION" every time before...stating their opinion, do they?

No, they don't.

I think just about everyone here realizes that's what people are doing in just about every post they make.

And people on 'both sides' at the extremes are overreacting, but hey, it's better than the usual debate about 'What Kickstarter is for', right?

And shifting goals and adding 'value' does kind of mean that Fireforge realized that they needed to add more 'value' here if they want this to fund, and if they want it to be even more successful that just barely funding.

Good for them - and for everyone who has pledged!

Awesome, an extra box will do nicely.

I am really into these guys because they are so ordinary. I think they will work great contrasted against more fantastical units such as the Sigmarines or Beastmen, much in the way Bretonia or the Empire used to.

I agree!

But GW knew what it was doing when it unfortunately offed the Olde Worlde and gave us AoS.

Much that was fantastic about the Olde Worlde was that it could 'fit' in ours (late medieval/early Renaissance) - and that meant other miniatures could too.

I *love* that setting - though I like AoS to a lesser degree too.

GW remains the 800 pound gorilla, and perhaps the slow progress here is due to the fact that the minis won't 'fit' in AoS?

Going 'generic' with "plain" humans and 'regular' Undead was both a blessing and a curse!

Fireforge has to be a bit surprised and disappointed that we're some two weeks in and this campaign still hasn't funded, never mind unlocking all those extra things that people want to be unlocked.

Tre Manor seems to be having a similar problem funding his generic barbarians.

Is it possible that there are just too many unpainted miniatures and big high-mini count games available? I feel like the Kickstarter model has hit critical mass. I really like the Fireforge figures- particularly the zombies. I backed for a couple boxes, but I just can't justifiably add a bunch to the 'pile'. I still have Relic Knights, Strange Aeons, dozens of things from recent GW releases (still haven't painted anything Necromunda), a large Sisters of Battle army, plus several hundred (maybe even a couple thousand) unpainted miniatures from other half-baked projects that I've been collecting for thirty years.

Tre's campaign, though, hasnt attracted quite as many people who want to be vocal about how it isn't worth it, or good enough, etc etc.

That's the weird bit I've been talking about: it's fine to not like something, it's just so strange that *this* KS has an absolute following of people who want to convince other people not to back it, for whatever reason. To the point of pledging so that they can go on the KS page and express that.

Which is a tremendous bummer as someone who already knows how I want to paint most of them!

Tre's campaign hasn't attracted as many people period.

Also, he does not have a range of HiPS plastic kits out there with all of the scale of production that implies for potential backers.

I think the issue with Tre's campaigns are different.

Tre is an absolutely incredible sculptor, but I personally stopped backing his projects because for whatever reason he doesn't want to adjust to the last 20 years of scale creep so his models are smaller than anything else I buy.

That is true. And Fireforge has explicitly addressed scale creep, which is why I am interested at all in their generic fantasy plastics despite buying well over 100 of their historical plastic minis to use as generic fantasy dudes. Unfortunately, their first set looks quite a bit like the Starks CMON has for sale right now, so they have another layer of competition right there.

ecurtz wrote:
I think the issue with Tre's campaigns are different.

Tre is an absolutely incredible sculptor, but I personally stopped backing his projects because for whatever reason he doesn't want to adjust to the last 20 years of scale creep so his models are smaller than anything else I buy.

It doesn’t make sense for Tre to increase the scale of his sculpts to the point where it invalidates his whole back catalog. He has made some adjustment, the minis from his most recent Njorn KS are a full head taller and broader than GW LotR minis whereas his older stuff fits in with LotR minis much better. His stuff fits in fine with the Hasslefree minis I have and the bulk of the stuff I’ve gotten from Reaper and Mierce. It doesn’t match up well with AoS or CMoN’s Zombicide but neither does Tre’s aesthetic.

I think part of the issue with FireForge’s KS is that the minis are a bit of a one trick pony. They’re good for the core of an army but the rules from FireForge are an unknown and I’m not sure how well they match up as proxies for other systems. It’s not a self contained board game/dungeon crawl and it’s not a third party alternate version of minis for an established game. Clearly FireForge wanted this KS to do great and be a springboard for their own version of WHFB but the response has been rather underwhelming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
That is true. And Fireforge has explicitly addressed scale creep, which is why I am interested at all in their generic fantasy plastics despite buying well over 100 of their historical plastic minis to use as generic fantasy dudes. Unfortunately, their first set looks quite a bit like the Starks CMON has for sale right now, so they have another layer of competition right there.

How did they address scale creep? The comparison shots for their new fantasy minis in this KS use GW’s Empire Greatswords a kit that predates AoS by several years. FireForge’s humans match up with GW fantasy humans from kits that are a decade old already.

At the beginning of the thread, I brought up scale as an issue I had. Fireforge posted photos and discussed the issue. Now, while I was unable to see much of the difference, Fireforge and many of the posters here stated the minis are closer to 32mm, and match current CMON plastics in height, but with thicker, more heroic limbs and heads that are closer to modern GW rather than old bobble-head GW scale. I guess I am taking them at their word.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
At the beginning of the thread, I brought up scale as an issue I had. Fireforge posted photos and discussed the issue. Now, while I was unable to see much of the difference, Fireforge and many of the posters here stated the minis are closer to 32mm, and match current CMON plastics in height, but with thicker, more heroic limbs and heads that are closer to modern GW rather than old bobble-head GW scale. I guess I am taking them at their word.

Ah, I was hoping for the old bobble-head scale, not 32mm.

28mm is what I want for my average guys. I liked that they looked closer to the Greatswords than the CMON mini in size and proportion.

 Azazelx wrote:

Wirecat wrote:
I am still on a fence about this. On one hand, I want to cave in and spend a 100... on their old historical boxes only, or mostly - possibly getting a single box of living peasants. On the other - while 20% discount is good, shipping may outweigh it and waiting a long time for these peasants to be ready...

New boxes are not shiny enough neither cheap enough to fill the rank-and-file for KoW and for skirmishes I really don't need more than a box or two of generic MaAs, even with command group. :( Although these dworfs... they look interesting but chances of them happening right now are so slim. Even more sad face. :(

If you want their historicals now, rather than whenever they ship from this KS, I'd point you towards Firestorm games. 10%-off MSRP and free shipping worldwide for orders over 40 quid. I'm sure there are other places that deliver to European locations in a similar way, but I'm not that familiar with them.

Thank You for suggestion. Unfortunately, You are right. Recent problems, uncertain shipment time and price and constant availability of Firestorm definitely put me off this Kickstarter. A shame, really. More variety - and HIPS plastic variety is good thing that I try to support as I can. :(

 eflix29 wrote:

I believe there needs to be significantly more miniature based value

Mmmh.. I don't know... what's holding me back is not the amounth of miniatures ( I don't play large scale game ), but rather the quality of the sculpts, their finished renders look like wip to me.
Their armor sculpting are fine, but the flesh of the zombies, the clothe looks totally amateur-ish.. Humans faces are also lacking character, and legs are too thick.

The clothing looks fine to me, and the proportions are (almost) heroic scale, the most tried and tested in the entire market.

As for characterful faces, check these out from an entirely different kickstarter:



Now think about how many of those fine, fine details on these figures will be visible in the final models, even given that they're in resin and are individual characters. Nope, the Fireforge stuff is perhaps not the best ever, but they're perfectly fine, especially given that they're in HIPs rather than premium resin and are all Generic mooks.

 Sarouan wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:


As far as the updates go:

These are all unlocked, yes?

Spoiler:

Only the heroes on foot. That doesn't include the second human faction.

Sorry, tried to copypasta the photo with the four heroes foot + mounted versions of the first human and undead heroes - didn't realise it was one large image with the second human faction etc. A bit less exciting without those mounted models, though. They're quite nice.

So far, the hyperboles I read the most are the ones you write here, not in the comment section. Or maybe on the Kickstarter under another name, who knows. You're overeacting to a storm in a glass of water, as far as I see it. Most of the reactions are actually fine. Maybe you don't like the fact your point of view isn't shared that much on the comment section itself, but there is no need to act outraged like you do here.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. There are (were when I was reading it) a few too many people acting hyperbolic over there, and some usual suspects here deciding to go on the attack/insult others when those people disagree with their own perspective. It's the difference between a calm discourse that you and I are having here, despite our disagreement on some aspects of the campaign and the need to get a bit too emotive and silly and insult others with a bit too much of the "entitled" phrase because they're frustrated that others don't have the same value opinion of the project - instead of having an adult discussion about their different perspectives

 Sarouan wrote:
Here, have a good pat in the back for your good deeds.
What I find the most funny is that some people really think it's just one guy moaning that gets the company's reaction. It's not. All that drama in the comments section is completely unnecessary, as well as the comments here. But if you'd like to think/feel you have a major role in all this, suit yourself.
What is sad though is that Psychopomp/Narzoth will be seen if he comes back, and that people will clearly notice and make fun of it because of the way Kickstarter made that new feature about comments made by backers leaving the project.

I don't think anyone really think's that they're influence-Jesus, and certainly not Psychopomp. I never got that from his posts. The way it works - as I'm sure you know - is that enough consumers complain about a think and make their voices heard en masse, sometimes companies listen - especially if they think it will be good business. Sitting down and keeping quiet like good little boys and girls never got anyone anything or fixed anything that was out of whack. It happens in the wider world pretty regularly, and our little niche hobby is no different. Don't get me wrong - I don't think Fireforge is perpetuating any great injustice here, but if the market is not on board with a thing, it's far more useful for them to get the feedback on why consumers are not on board than to just be wondering why nobody is interested in their kits. People deciding to carry water and call others who are giving this information on why they aren't backing the campaign "entitled" does nobody involved any favours.

 Donomar wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I hope Fireforge would prefer for us to tell them how to get our money rather than for us all to walk away and never give them money at all. Customers who haggle are customers who are engaged.

Yes and it's a great thing to see such positivity on the KS comment section over the past 24 hours with feedback being engaged in by Fireforge while not being lost in a series of long egocentric voluminous posts...it's great

Why you gotta be so negative and toxic here, man? I must have also missed the campaign suddenly funding with all of that Power of Positivity.

Prestor Jon wrote:

Nobody should have an issue with whether or not other people like a KS enough to back it. Support or don’t, make whatever comments you deem appropriate be it praise or criticism. The issue that seems to be the crux of the debate in this thread, as I see it, is that the value of a KS is subjective not objective. If you don’t think a KS has enough value for you that’s fine but somebody else may believe the value is there and that doesn’t mean one of the two is wrong. I don’t want/need a lot of new miniatures regardless of how awesome or cheap they might be so pledging this KS to get 3 boxes for $56 plus shipping with a few stretch goals if it funds is plenty of value for me. I’ll get some stuff I want without spending too much and I have plenty of stuff to paint while I wait for it. Other people may want two full armies at a good discount and that’s fine that’s part of the reason for different pledge levels. The world don’t move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you may not be right for some.

There’s a whole host of reasons why this KS may not fund or may just barely fund and and the perceived value of the higher pledge levels is certainly one of them. There’s also a fairly soft market for fantasy mass battle games in 28-32mm scale, that’s part of the reason WHFB doesn’t exist anymore and AOS uses round bases and Shadespire exists.

You're absolutely right here, Willis - and you illustrate very well why people feeling the need to insult or belittle others because they have a different opinion isn't needed - either here or in the comments. Similarly, feeling a need to insult Mantic or CMoN or whoever and their models and materials and backers is simply frustrated, emotive scapegoating. Thinking that the KS market has "changed" as a result of CMoN/Mantic is one thing (even if it's factually incorrect - both companies were very early adopters and always offered a lot of "value" in terms of numbers of models) - but feeling a need to belittle/blame them and their customers because this thing hasn't funded is where it becomes really unnecessary and triggers the less pleasant discourse. I notice that the tone of this thread has overall been much more pleasant since I last posted, and there's really only one person who felt a need to take a sarcastic swipe, quoted above.

However, given just how close this is to funding (even at the basic level) then it's pretty suggestive that there is indeed a market for them - and perhaps if better value was offered from the get-go it may have been enough to have funded the project early and have it sailing through stretch goals by now with that momentum. Or conversely, it might not have. There's no way to prove or disprove a supposition like that - even though I feel that it would have at least safely funded by now - but that moment/opportunity has now long passed.

Forgotten World alpha rules (part 1) now available



We uploaded the first part of the alpha version for Forgotten World rules. Remember that rules are still work in progress and the alpha version is just to show you on what we are working.

In this first part you will get the basic rules for Forgotten World - Conquerors rules that are focused on battles between regimented units.

Download the alpha rules

https://fireforge-games.com/forgotten_world_rules_a20.pdf

 Azazelx wrote:

Spoiler:

 Donomar wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I hope Fireforge would prefer for us to tell them how to get our money rather than for us all to walk away and never give them money at all. Customers who haggle are customers who are engaged.

Yes and it's a great thing to see such positivity on the KS comment section over the past 24 hours with feedback being engaged in by Fireforge while not being lost in a series of long egocentric voluminous posts...it's great

Why you gotta be so negative and toxic here, man? I must have also missed the campaign suddenly funding with all of that Power of Positivity.

What part of that was incorrect? A number of backers made comments indicating how things had improved in the KS comment section after said departure. There had been noticeable negativity in there beforehand coinciding with a significant lull too. Good progress has been made and it looks good to fund at this stage thankfully.

Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.

General deal got a bit better. An extra free character was added.

The Early bird with freebies is 51% off retail... not counting the free extra sprue...

9 boxes at 20E

free shields at 7.50E

Realm warden at 8E

Shadow soul at 8E

4 x foot heroes at 10E each

Equals 243.50E retail for 120E

 MDSW wrote:
Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.

Not worth it with the retail price and having to wait a year. Easier to get 20% off and free shipping at retail

Smokestack wrote:General deal got a bit better. An extra free character was added.

The Early bird with freebies is 51% off retail... not counting the free extra sprue...




Equals 243.50E retail for 120E

lord marcus wrote:

 MDSW wrote:
Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.

Not worth it with the retail price and having to wait a year. Easier to get 20% off and free shipping at retail

Isn't the value 51% off retail as Smokestack has highlighted?

I think the extra box plus one sprue for pledges above €100 really brings out the value in this KS. That extra box can be put into the villagers which will arrive later in the year.