Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Charge through walls hahahaha.

Flip belts don't let the models ignore the height anymore, unless I am missing something.

Per FAQ:

‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total these models can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for these models in the Movement phase). During the Charge phase, models in this unit can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.

Or were you suggesting that he charge over the wall (i.e. rolling enough distance to get up and over)?

Core terrain rules infantry can charge through walls.

Edit: You could declare the walls as impassible, he would need to check, but in general when declaring a terrain feature is a wall infantry are no allowed to charge and fight though walls.

Wasn't it ruins infantry can go through? Solid wall isn't really ruin like. Anyway up to players classify what counts as ruin and what not

tneva82 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Charge through walls hahahaha.

Flip belts don't let the models ignore the height anymore, unless I am missing something.

Per FAQ:

‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total these models can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for these models in the Movement phase). During the Charge phase, models in this unit can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.

Or were you suggesting that he charge over the wall (i.e. rolling enough distance to get up and over)?

Core terrain rules infantry can charge through walls.

Edit: You could declare the walls as impassible, he would need to check, but in general when declaring a terrain feature is a wall infantry are no allowed to charge and fight though walls.

Wasn't it ruins infantry can go through? Solid wall isn't really ruin like. Anyway up to players classify what counts as ruin and what not

All terrain is supposed to be declared at the start of the game. Most players are used to halfway doing this step, but it is an important part of the game once you actually play with it.

All GW buildings are ruins, they sell them as ruins, they say they are ruins. So if you play them as something else you have house ruled that terrain (Which is 100% fine) but just making a note for people that might not know.


And to note, things like Rubble, Woods, Tanglewire, Pipes, and some others actually slow you down in the charge phase or makes you move over them like normal.

Putting down lots of obstacles like Woods, Rubble, Tank traps/tanglewire, pipes, etc.. not only hurts vehicles, MC, but also Infantry and can really change the game, when units like GSC has to -2 to the charge, or move 1/2 way for Guardsmen move move move, its really does make the game feel different.

So I'm taking the time to finalise my 2k list and not sure if I have enough anti tank.

Currently I got 10 haywire skyweavers and 12 fusion pistols split across 3 squads, is that enough at 2k?

I'm running 2 battalions to get as many CP as I can with 6x5 troupes all with caress, embrace, kiss, with 5 starweavers.

Also, the 6th troupe will have to deepstrike so I've given them all neuro disruptors so they can hopefully do something even if they fail to charge, anyone finding them useful at 5pts now?

That's plenty in the abstract, but fusion pistols are really hard to use effectively against vehicles unless you run soaring spite, and even then you usually only get one turn's worth of shots. Without the ability to shoot after advancing (which only works in the vehicle), it's just really tough to get into a position where you can actually use enough of them to really kill anything.

One of the major reasons people just don't run mono-faction quins at a competitive level is how hard they get countered by, say, flyers (or flying vehicles, or anything tough that isn't a vehicle). Luckily, craftworld eldar have many excellent options for dealing with the sorts of stuff harlequins just can't handle, so they soup together very effectively.

Ok thanks, yeah one of the battalions will have to be soaring spite, with the skyweavers and fusion boats, the other probably frozen stars ATM.

I'm not thinking it's going to be super competitive but we do play pretty strong lists and I see a fair bit of amour, like knights and tanks so need to make sure I have a fighting chance against those.

Just a note that buried most of the way down part 2 of the adepticon preview was something about Harlequins getting a PA update via White Dwarf, rather than their own book, along with Deathwatch. Dunno how to react to that - presumably they're not getting their own book because they aren't considered important enough, which feels pretty lame. On the other hand, at least they're getting *something*...

On the other other hand, it looks like the only Harlequin special character..is going to be for Imperium, not Harlequins. Lol.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/04/the-warhammer-preview-online-2-heroes-heretics-and-a-squirrelgw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-1/

Yeah, i saw it. But it got me pretty upset so i took a step back. I'm waiting for the full release and seeing what actually happens.

I've been waiting for Quins PA to get me back into 40k (Been playing a lot of AoS).

I was considering starting a small quin force - much less likely now, and I've been having loads of fun playing Farsight Enclave on TTS. Nice to play a Xenos army supported with well-written rules!

 grouchoben wrote:
I was considering starting a small quin force - much less likely now, and I've been having loads of fun playing Farsight Enclave on TTS. Nice to play a Xenos army supported with well-written rules!

The funny thing is tho, there are many ways to build and play quins that are all equal to each other (mostly b.c the book is mid tier competitive), the rules and points for the most part are fine after the updated points.

I've seen all of these do well at local event levels (IMO what really matters as its the average Joe playing), Players had success with:
Skyweaver spam, 12-18 bikes
Starweaver spam: 12+ starweaver
Troupe+starweaver: 2 Bats with fusion boats and melee squads
Mix detachmens/mix vanguard: characters, a bike unit, a troupe unit, etc..
Brigades: Yep even brigades now.

While its only 8 units (yes a crappy terrain piece that no one knows what GW was thinking with that PoS) besides the WWG, all the units are equally as viable, sure the Voidweaver is the worst of them all, but really with them being cheaper now, they are at least not completely over shadow by Starweavers (Basically the same stats as 2 starweavers with a extra gun, just no melee support).


All GW has to do is do what they did for GSC, give us a second wave of support, 3-4 more units and the book will be in an extremely healthy place. A 3rd HQ on a bike, a new unit type like a flyer, a cheap troop like mimes, finally a name character or a larger center piece like an Avatar of Cegorach. Funny enough, we are more popular than GSC by the numbers when it comes ot events (mostly b.c DE/CWE take Skyweavers and characters), but yet they got 4x the support we did.

How about the use of Voidweavers?
I've used them in a friendly game vs SM (mostly infantry) and they behaved so-so.

yukishiro1 wrote:

On the other other hand, it looks like the only Harlequin special character..is going to be for Imperium, not Harlequins. Lol.

If he has the Harlequin keyword won't he be able to be used in a Harlequin army? We haven't seen the warscroll yet.

It looks like he's just a sidekick for the other lady that comes along with her, but who knows, maybe you can take him on his own in a Harlequin army. There's always hope...

On the topic of the Harlequin Codex, I think it's actually an excellent book full of interesting, well-balanced stuff (except Voidweavers and the terrain piece). The problem is that it's only between 1/3 to 1/2 of an actual army.

On second thought, I can kinda see why they're not doing a whole PA book: there just isn't enough in the list. What Harlequins desperately need is not new stratagems, relics, etc - there are more than enough of those already for the few units the army has.What the army desperately needs is an expanded roster, but that isn't what PA seems to be about.

Has anyone had luck running lots of harlequins on foot?

Heafstaag wrote:
Has anyone had luck running lots of harlequins on foot?

Footslogging is a slow way to die.
Harlies are elite, not horde. It's better to transport them and unleash them when delivered.
On the other hand, I'd take Skyweavers over Harlies any day.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:
Has anyone had luck running lots of harlequins on foot?

Footslogging is a slow way to die.
Harlies are elite, not horde. It's better to transport them and unleash them when delivered.
On the other hand, I'd take Skyweavers over Harlies any day.

Hmm. I was just thinking with their points drop a big unit or two on foot may fun to try out.

 wuestenfux wrote:
How about the use of Voidweavers?
I've used them in a friendly game vs SM (mostly infantry) and they behaved so-so.

They are great for cheap extra fire power in maelstrom missions, where you want something to sit out of the front lines unlike Skyweavers. And Starweavers while good and useful, they don't have that extra punch. Use them to support your other units while being able to get somewhere else your would want your troops, skyweavers to go and DJ's are not good enough for. Often times if you have enough going forward, they wont be targeted as much and can do more damage than you would first think over a few turns.

Tho i personally wouldn't take them unless you have a clear use for them, just throwing them in a list isn't fully efficient, they are our weakest unit for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Heafstaag wrote:
Has anyone had luck running lots of harlequins on foot?

Back in 7th, SURE!, in 8th. NO!

Tho having 1 or 2 units with no weapons on foot just for sitting out of LoS and using them as DS or bubble wrapping can be fine in some situations (I have done this a few times before, not very worth while tho especially when you can get kabals for 1/2 the price to do the same thing).

Some players has been able to reliably use a 12man foot unit. Tho against some armies or armies with units (Tau, TFC, Hive Guard, etc..) they will die instantly. But with Twilight pathways and Warrior Acrobats, also give them Prismatic Blur, and finally cast Veild of Tears. That'll give them a 28" movement with a 3++, -1 to be hit you could also stack Lightning-Fast for -2 and a 3++, and you'll most likely need to use Isha's Weeping if they are targeted turn 1 if you don't go first. Just remember tho, for every buff they get thats less buffs for your Skyweavers.

Hi all. I’m just about to start collecting harlequins and I’ve been looking through their rules. Quick question, is the Great Harlequin worth it for 2cp?

Hogiebear wrote:
Hi all. I’m just about to start collecting harlequins and I’ve been looking through their rules. Quick question, is the Great Harlequin worth it for 2cp?

I always found paying 2cp for basically re-roll 1's to hit is pricey. At least extend his aura to 9' or give him something in addition.

Hogiebear wrote:
Hi all. I’m just about to start collecting harlequins and I’ve been looking through their rules. Quick question, is the Great Harlequin worth it for 2cp?

IMO no, i'd rather have Lightning-Fast for a turn than re-roll 1's to hit in melee only.

Troupes on foot absolutely work, especially in any format where you're guaranteed good LOS-blocking terrain in the center of the board, as is now standard in most tournaments. 11 points for effectively flying infantry ob-sec with a 4+ invuln is extremely cheap, especially by eldar standards.

Nobody else has anything like flying ob-sec infantry, much less for 11 points and with a 4+ invuln standard.

Not only are they good...they're arguably one of the very best troops choices in the game. Literally every other faction in the game would kill for a troops choice that good. Skyweavers have a reputation for being the best unit in the book but IMO troupes are even better.

That said, what they aren't good for is running in a mono harlequin list, because while they are excellent, surprisingly resilient objective holders...they don't really kill all that much.

But that's true of mono quins generally, and it's why they aren't competitive on their own. They just don't have the firepower 8th edition needs to be top-tier competitive.

Troupes are fantastic in eldar soup, though.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/10/psychic-awakening-deathwatchgw-homepage-post-2/

They posted a preview of the Deathwatch rules, which are pathetic, literally just giving them the exact same stratagems all the other chapters got, with no suggestion of any new rules or content at all. They do say there are 14 strats and they don't list all of them...but they also say they're just the same ones other chapters get. So it looks like absolutely no new content of any kind.

This seems to bode very badly for the quins rules, since we're the other faction they decided didn't deserve its own book.

On the other hand, they can't just give us junk some other faction already has but we didn't get yet, because we aren't space marines. So presumably they have to give us *something* new...I'm just resigned to the idea it's going to be very, very little.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
How about the use of Voidweavers?
I've used them in a friendly game vs SM (mostly infantry) and they behaved so-so.

They are great for cheap extra fire power in maelstrom missions, where you want something to sit out of the front lines unlike Skyweavers. And Starweavers while good and useful, they don't have that extra punch. Use them to support your other units while being able to get somewhere else your would want your troops, skyweavers to go and DJ's are not good enough for. Often times if you have enough going forward, they wont be targeted as much and can do more damage than you would first think over a few turns.

This is also my impression after using three of them a friendly game vs IH.
They can sit back and target tougher enemy units, while the rest of the army is advancing increasing the pressure upon the enemy.
This keeps the Voidweavers longer alive also as objective sitting units.

Do you think 2 battalions are needed for the CP or could the harlies work with 1 battalion and for instance a Vanguard and outrider instead?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Troupes on foot absolutely work, especially in any format where you're guaranteed good LOS-blocking terrain in the center of the board, as is now standard in most tournaments. 11 points for effectively flying infantry ob-sec with a 4+ invuln is extremely cheap, especially by eldar standards.

Nobody else has anything like flying ob-sec infantry, much less for 11 points and with a 4+ invuln standard.

Not only are they good...they're arguably one of the very best troops choices in the game. Literally every other faction in the game would kill for a troops choice that good. Skyweavers have a reputation for being the best unit in the book but IMO troupes are even better.

I wonder what would be the best masque to take for a full n foot harlie list (3x12 troupe, no upgrades...well, maybe on 2-3 models), shadowseer, troupe master.

You've already got the -1 to wound, reroll wounds in assault, 4+ invuln, etc,

Frozen stars...capitalize on all of the attacks, especially if throw in the +1 to wound strat, and WT for 6+++
Dreaming Shaodw...mitigate morale.
Veiled Path...webway bonuses

Probably Frozen Stars.
Not sure I'd want to paint 36 more harlequins though....

Khornegod wrote:Do you think 2 battalions are needed for the CP or could the harlies work with 1 battalion and for instance a Vanguard and outrider instead?

For me 100% yes, if you are ok with souping, its so much better to just go DE for a 2nd battalion tho, 30pt kabals and 60pts Archons are cheap, 210pts and you can use your kabals as body blockers/DS/bubble wrap, etc.. Or if you are set on mono QUins take a couple Troupes with no weapons, I like Troupes but 6 units with weapons is way to many points for what they do.

bullyboy wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Troupes on foot absolutely work, especially in any format where you're guaranteed good LOS-blocking terrain in the center of the board, as is now standard in most tournaments. 11 points for effectively flying infantry ob-sec with a 4+ invuln is extremely cheap, especially by eldar standards.

Nobody else has anything like flying ob-sec infantry, much less for 11 points and with a 4+ invuln standard.

Not only are they good...they're arguably one of the very best troops choices in the game. Literally every other faction in the game would kill for a troops choice that good. Skyweavers have a reputation for being the best unit in the book but IMO troupes are even better.

I wonder what would be the best masque to take for a full n foot harlie list (3x12 troupe, no upgrades...well, maybe on 2-3 models), shadowseer, troupe master.

You've already got the -1 to wound, reroll wounds in assault, 4+ invuln, etc,

Frozen stars...capitalize on all of the attacks, especially if throw in the +1 to wound strat, and WT for 6+++
Dreaming Shaodw...mitigate morale.
Veiled Path...webway bonuses

Probably Frozen Stars.
Not sure I'd want to paint 36 more harlequins though....

Everytime i have tried a 12man unit on foot, it was shot of the table turn 1 (or at least only 3-5 left making it pointless for what i wanted). But 90% the players i play against has long range ignore LoS weapons, so it doesn't matter if i can't be seen, in cover, etc.. My srea does play with more heavy terrain tho as the few local shops can field up to 12 tables full of terrain, including buildings, walls, forest/woods, literally everything you can think of, so our players/TO's tend to love it and add more than what you see at large events like NOVA and LVO.

11-point troupes are a hugely inefficient target for indirect shooting. If someone has enough indirect shooting to be a big threat to a unit with a 4++ and -1 to wound (3++ if you went first along with probably either a -1 to hit a 6+++) that costs only 11 per model, you presumably *want* them shooting at your big troupe unit, not at something valuable like your bikes or boats.

If you do the math, even against the base profile of 4++ and -1 to wound, a thunderfire cannon kills all of 1.67 troupes on average in one round of shooting. If they have reroll 1s for hits and wounds, it's still only 2 models. That's 22 points per round of shooting.

To give some reference, that is terrible efficiency. Against ork boyz, for example, a TFC will instead kill 6 boyz, which is is 43 points. Literally twice as efficient.










Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:


I wonder what would be the best masque to take for a full n foot harlie list (3x12 troupe, no upgrades...well, maybe on 2-3 models), shadowseer, troupe master.

You've already got the -1 to wound, reroll wounds in assault, 4+ invuln, etc,

Frozen stars...capitalize on all of the attacks, especially if throw in the +1 to wound strat, and WT for 6+++
Dreaming Shaodw...mitigate morale.
Veiled Path...webway bonuses

Probably Frozen Stars.
Not sure I'd want to paint 36 more harlequins though....

Most people seem to run them frozen stars. I think it mostly depends on what else you want to do with the detachment. If you want to do a foot-only detachment, IMO either dreaming shadow with a curtainfall jester, or midnight sorrow with a solitaire. The 6 inch consolidate from midnight sorrow is actually pretty amazing on minimum-points foot harles because it makes it almost impossible to avoid a wrap, and a solitaire with the ability to fight on death is extremely useful as well.

Frozen stars really only makes you better at killing stuff, so it isn't my favorite for a detachment that isn't good at that.

I normally take 1 detachment that is mixed just for Stratagems, the traits don't matter compare to the stratagems, a unit to stop OW, a unit to get +1 to wound, a unit to heroic, etc.. , FYI heroic from behind a wall is really strong lol, so if they do not have ignore Los weapons you can force someone to move more than 6" away from the wall or they are getting hereoic on.

I don't like mixed detachments from a flavor point of view, so I don't run them. But yeah, harlequins are one of the few factions where the traits are of low enough power relative to the stratagems that it can make a lot of sense from a pure power perspective, especially if you can devote a detachment to it specifically.

I've got a batallion of harlies that I like to run alongside my other eldar (usually drukhari, sometimes craftworlders). I generally run three squads in star weavers with a couple of fusion pistols and a lot of caresses or kisses. I generally back them up with a Shadow Seer, Troupe Master, and Solitaire.

The issue I keep running into is that charging with multiple harlie units usually just results in my opponent spend 2CP and interrupting to kill the second harlie squad before it swings. So it feels like I'm doing something wrong by letting my semi-expensive clown units get beaten up, but surely it's not a great idea to have multiple harlequin units hanging back in their transports and *not* charging.

Any tips on how to *not* turn charging multiple squishy clowns into a suicide mission?

I never really multi-charge melee units unless i know i can survive or if its Bikes and let the Troupes go first. Or have so much threat that even if they kill off 1 Troupe unit the other 3-4 meleeing units will make up for it.

If you are going to multi-charge or plan on it with lots of Troupes you really need to have a Shadowseer and at least a -1 to hit somewhere. -1 to be hit and wound could really save them. also if you are only rolling 7-8 wounds, roll them 1 by 1 and on the first death use 1 CP to make them 3++.

That doesn't work, the strat is used at the end of the phase and then applies for the rest of the turn, not after taking a wound. It does work on overwatch, though with only 5 in the unit, it isn't worth deliberately failing an overwatch save by taking it on the 6+ armor save to trigger, like it is in a 12-man unit. Nor is it arguably worth using even if you do take a wound from overwatch anyway...1CP to improve the save on 4 1W models from a 4++ to a 3++ isn't a very good return.

As to advice...I'm having a little trouble following. What exactly are you charging that has the potential to weather the attacks from one unit then interrupt and have enough left in the tank to wipe a second unit? If they've got something that strong in combat...you are probably doing the wrong thing by charging it in the first place, at least without softening it up significantly first.

Or do you mean you're charging multiple different units with multiple different units of harles, all of which are threatening enough in combat to kill your harles if they strike first? If so...just don't do that? Target something else instead. Unless their whole army is combat, there should be a number of weaker, more tempting targets you'd be better going after instead.

5-man troupe squads are not deadly enough to really go toe to toe with anything in combat, whether they're striking first or not. So they shouldn't be used that way. Use them to bully stuff that doesn't want to be in combat...they're not going to do well thrown into combat specialists.