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 Ordana wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
A Marine Captain rocking a jump pack and a Thunder Hammer contributes a hell of a lot more than his buff.

I'd hope so given he costs almost as much as 25 guardsmen on top of a company commander.

But that's not what your argument was. You said:

Tyel wrote:Most of the non-psychic characters in the game contribute nothing but their buff. They are still twice or more as much.

He's an example of "most of the non-psychic characters in the game" that contribute FAR more than "nothing but their buff".

I ask again: What the hell do people expect Guard Company Commanders to contribute? Their wargear options are pathetic and even decked out with melee gear, they just aren't capable of doing much.

CC's synergize well with Infantry Squads while costing almost nothing. FRFSRF and MMM are more then worth having even on bog standard 10 basic Guardsman.

See again about how "their wargear options are pathetic". This kind of nonsense is the perfect example of circular logic.

Also, lol @ FRFSRF "more than worth having even on bog standard 10 basic Guardsmen"...well no gak. It literally only affects bog standard basic Guardsmen.
Oh, and if you want to get technical? It only affects 9 out of the 10. Sergeants can't take Lasguns for some asinine reason.

The next cheapest Imperial Battalion is AdMech and then your paying 50% more for mandatory HQ choices with completely no synergy at all to their troops.

This ignores the fact that the current AdMech book is a joke that happened thanks to the insufferable whining from those precious little Cult Mechanicus players who "couldn't field armies!!11!!" without using Skitarii to have cheap troops.

AdMech got what the whiners wanted. Skitarii players didn't want this, and quite a few of us have flatout stated that they should not have been rolled in or at the goddamned least should have been given a few HQ options synergizing specifically with them.

Same thing goes for the fact that the hallmark facet of the Skitarii(Doctrina Imperatives) was thrown into Stratagems that now require you to take the worst unit upgrade on Skitarii(Data-Tethers) to get full use of the stratagems.

Skitarii being separate from the rest of the AdMech never made much sense and the army was woefully incomplete on its own. The problem was that GW really just didn't appear to think through that project much and delivered two incomplete factions that didn't quite add up to a full complete army even when combined, and with 8E they really ham-fisted them together instead of taking the time to properly merge and flesh them out.

That fact that the MF'inf *AdMech* didnt even have a transport (and still doesnt really, the Termite in its current incarnation doesnt really fit well) is absurd.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Skitarii being separate from the rest of the AdMech never made much sense and the army was woefully incomplete on its own.

You are kidding, right?
2x Troops choices(Vanguard and Rangers)
2x Elites choices(Infiltrators and Ruststalkers)
2x Heavy Support choices(Ballistarius Ironstriders and Onagers)
1x Fast Attack(Sydonian Dragoons)

The only thing the army was missing was an HQ--and given that the Ironstriders got moved to Fast Attack in 8E, it goes from 1FA and 2HS to 2FA and 1 HS. That's a fairly "complete" force as it stands.

Compare to Cult Mechanicus at its launch:
2x Troops(Destroyers and Breachers)
2x Elites(Electropriest variants)
0x FA
1x Heavy Support (Kastelan Robots--Datasmiths were part of this unit)
1x HQ (Techpriest Dominus--It took Agents of the Imperium for the Enginseer and Servitors to be added and then 13th Black Crusade to bring in Cawl)

Skitarii was a far more "complete" army than Cult was.

The problem was that GW really just didn't appear to think through that project much and delivered two incomplete factions that didn't quite add up to a full complete army even when combined, and with 8E they really ham-fisted them together instead of taking the time to properly merge and flesh them out.

You say this and yet the intention was clear that they weren't supposed to "add up to a full complete army even when combined". Skitarii had the ability to run without HQs(their unique FOC allowed for them to have 0 HQs) and Cult had a FOC with 0 FAs, they required formations to even have their army abilities crossover.

That fact that the MF'inf *AdMech* didnt even have a transport (and still doesnt really, the Termite in its current incarnation doesnt really fit well) is absurd.

I'll agree on the Cult side of things, but I never had mobility issues with Skitarii.

The real issue was that the dedicated assault unit(Ruststalkers) had no way to prevent Overwatch.

Overwatch is an annoyance at best unless you're charging Robots backed by Cawl, or Necrons /w rerolls.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Skitarii being separate from the rest of the AdMech never made much sense and the army was woefully incomplete on its own.

You are kidding, right?
2x Troops choices(Vanguard and Rangers)
2x Elites choices(Infiltrators and Ruststalkers)
2x Heavy Support choices(Ballistarius Ironstriders and Onagers)
1x Fast Attack(Sydonian Dragoons)

Which amounts to a fraction of the unit options of something like Eldar, Chaos, Guard, Marines, Orks, etc, and most of these are just equipment swaps of fundamentally the same base unit, and lacking HQ's and transports.

Compare to Cult Mechanicus at its launch:
2x Troops(Destroyers and Breachers)
2x Elites(Electropriest variants)
0x FA
1x Heavy Support (Kastelan Robots--Datasmiths were part of this unit)
1x HQ (Techpriest Dominus--It took Agents of the Imperium for the Enginseer and Servitors to be added and then 13th Black Crusade to bring in Cawl)

Skitarii was a far more "complete" army than Cult was.

So they only had 6 instead of 7 units

Neither was terribly complete, and having the Skitarii being a distinct faction from the AdMech made little sense outside of GW's marketing windows for that time.

The problem was that GW really just didn't appear to think through that project much and delivered two incomplete factions that didn't quite add up to a full complete army even when combined, and with 8E they really ham-fisted them together instead of taking the time to properly merge and flesh them out.

You say this and yet the intention was clear that they weren't supposed to "add up to a full complete army even when combined".

I guess one could see that as intentional, I saw it as a poorly planned release in what was by far the most poorly handled edition the game has ever bad.

Skitarii had the ability to run without HQs(their unique FOC allowed for them to have 0 HQs)

Only by dint of GW going out of their way to make a new FoC for them because they wouldnt fit the one they built every other army to for the preceding 16 years and 3 editions

The real issue was that the dedicated assault unit(Ruststalkers) had no way to prevent Overwatch.

Most dedicated assault units did not, that was rather rare, the only one I can remember off the top of my head that could was Banshees IIRC.

Don't get sucked in. Admech standalone obviously have issues stemming from a limited range. In general Imperium has a lot of "incomplete" standalone factions because allies are supposed to be available to them.

You're just in an argument which has devolved into "Defend Guard At All Costs."

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Skitarii being separate from the rest of the AdMech never made much sense and the army was woefully incomplete on its own.

You are kidding, right?
2x Troops choices(Vanguard and Rangers)
2x Elites choices(Infiltrators and Ruststalkers)
2x Heavy Support choices(Ballistarius Ironstriders and Onagers)
1x Fast Attack(Sydonian Dragoons)

Which amounts to a fraction of the unit options of something like Eldar, Chaos, Guard, Marines, Orks, etc, and most of these are just equipment swaps of fundamentally the same base unit, and lacking HQ's and transports.

It amounted to a fraction of the unit options of established factions that had how many years to get bloated?

Ironstriders were distinct to Dragoons even though they were "equipment swaps". The same goes for Ruststalkers+Infiltrators, etc.

So they only had 6 instead of 7 units

Neither was terribly complete, and having the Skitarii being a distinct faction from the AdMech made little sense outside of GW's marketing windows for that time.

And yet GSC and Harlequins didn't get rolled into other books. GSC, if you strip out the Guard items they have rebadged into the book(Leman Russes, Chimeras, Sentinels), are sitting around these same numbers. Same with Harlequins.

You say they "made little sense out of GW's marketing windows" while ignoring they were effectively introducing brand new factions into the game.

I guess one could see that as intentional, I saw it as a poorly planned release in what was by far the most poorly handled edition the game has ever bad.

Then I don't think you actually ever played someone who went full Skitarii and enjoyed the army, but instead dealt with metachasers bringing Convocations and Flesh Tearers crap.

Only by dint of GW going out of their way to make a new FoC for them because they wouldnt fit the one they built every other army to for the preceding 16 years and 3 editions

And yet the same thing happened with Harlequins, I don't see you calling for them to get rolled into Aeldari.

The real issue was that the dedicated assault unit(Ruststalkers) had no way to prevent Overwatch.

Most dedicated assault units did not, that was rather rare, the only one I can remember off the top of my head that could was Banshees IIRC.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It amounted to a fraction of the unit options of established factions that had how many years to get bloated?

Even comparing them to their early 2E iterations where they got their first proper codex books, these were on the thin side.

And yet GSC and Harlequins didn't get rolled into other books. GSC, if you strip out the Guard items they have rebadged into the book(Leman Russes, Chimeras, Sentinels), are sitting around these same numbers. Same with Harlequins.

And I'm of the opinion it was a mistake not to roll them in with their parent armies. I've said so in other thrads more than once. I think splitting them into separate books has force fed the allies shenanigans that fuel so much of the top end of the metagame. Treat them the way Guard organically incorporates Stormtroopers as a subfaction (and having their own book didnt work out well in 6E/7E).

You say they "made little sense out of GW's marketing windows" while ignoring they were effectively introducing brand new factions into the game.

Well, they were introduced. Given how awkwardly theyve been handled, not sure Id say it was spectacularly effective.

Then I don't think you actually ever played someone who went full Skitarii and enjoyed the army, but instead dealt with metachasers bringing Convocations and Flesh Tearers crap.

Oh I did, especially before the Convocation garbage came out and became the default army for them in 7E, but I said even back then they didn't feel like a complete release and felt like half an army.

And yet the same thing happened with Harlequins, I don't see you calling for them to get rolled into Aeldari.

I have stated exactly this in other threads, it just hasn't been pertinent here.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It amounted to a fraction of the unit options of established factions that had how many years to get bloated?

Even comparing them to their early 2E iterations where they got their first proper codex books, these were on the thin side.

Did you ever think that maybe it's because these books weren't trying to artificially inflate unit counts?

I mean, I could have added another 2 or 3 units at least by simply adding "Sniper Teams" made up of Transauranic Arquebi(bonus: it would have required the sale of multiple boxes to make it work--a thing that GW was accused of doing at the time as well), "Plasma Teams", etc.

And yet GSC and Harlequins didn't get rolled into other books. GSC, if you strip out the Guard items they have rebadged into the book(Leman Russes, Chimeras, Sentinels), are sitting around these same numbers. Same with Harlequins.

And I'm of the opinion it was a mistake not to roll them in with their parent armies. I've said so in other thrads more than once. I think splitting them into separate books has force fed the allies shenanigans that fuel so much of the top end of the metagame. Treat them the way Guard organically incorporates Stormtroopers as a subfaction (and having their own book didnt work out well in 6E/7E).

Let's be honest here:
Scions was a poor book not because they were a subfaction, but because it was a poorly done book. For whatever reason the Guard book proper was able to field as many, if not more Scions as the Scions book thanks to the Scion Platoons present in the Guard book. Things also weren't helped by the $35 for 5 price tag on Scions either.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It amounted to a fraction of the unit options of established factions that had how many years to get bloated?

Even comparing them to their early 2E iterations where they got their first proper codex books, these were on the thin side.

Did you ever think that maybe it's because these books weren't trying to artificially inflate unit counts?

While there's definitely a case for that to be made with many armies (looking at you Space Marines), the fact that the *Adeptus Mechanicus* of all things (and and even then originally only from the Skitarii) has a grand total of *one* tank unit, no transports, and only a couple light Sentinel-esque sized walkers (built on the same shared chassis) as the sum total of its vehicle fleet is...silly and unfortunate, and also fewer than Guard or Marines or Eldar had even back in 2E when they got their very first codex books. The Guard alone in 2E had Sentinels, Hellhounds, LRBTs, Demolishers, Griffons, Chimeras, and Basilisks.

Let's be honest here:
Scions was a poor book not because they were a subfaction, but because it was a poorly done book. For whatever reason the Guard book proper was able to field as many, if not more Scions as the Scions book thanks to the Scion Platoons present in the Guard book. Things also weren't helped by the $35 for 5 price tag on Scions either.

The Scion book was a total abortion of both background fluff and game design, no argument from me there, but they didn't need to ther own book or to be their own distinct army either for what was basically one infantry unit and a commander with new transport and a borrowed Commissar and Valkyrie entry

Maybe GW wants people to buy rules like EA DLC player packs. So you would buy the codex for full, but if you want something like a pask you have to pay extra, Want a better set of rules for your Lemman Russ, 1.99$ etc

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It amounted to a fraction of the unit options of established factions that had how many years to get bloated?

Even comparing them to their early 2E iterations where they got their first proper codex books, these were on the thin side.

Did you ever think that maybe it's because these books weren't trying to artificially inflate unit counts?

While there's definitely a case for that to be made with many armies (looking at you Space Marines), the fact that the *Adeptus Mechanicus* of all things (and and even then originally only from the Skitarii) has a grand total of *one* tank unit, no transports, and only a couple light Sentinel-esque sized walkers (built on the same shared chassis) as the sum total of its vehicle fleet is...silly and unfortunate, and also fewer than Guard or Marines or Eldar had even back in 2E when they got their very first codex books. The Guard alone in 2E had Sentinels, Hellhounds, LRBTs, Demolishers, Griffons, Chimeras, and Basilisks.

There was some discussion going on when Skitarii, Cult, and Harlequins all came out that GW was having production issues. We've since learned that yes they had issues (supposedly they're resolved now) but it makes sense they'd keep the initial books small when introducing a faction that was an unproven bit. Not to mention their model catalog is fairly large.

Supposedly there's a Skitarii HQ that passed the design+concept stage, just waiting to actually come out.

Let's be honest here:
Scions was a poor book not because they were a subfaction, but because it was a poorly done book. For whatever reason the Guard book proper was able to field as many, if not more Scions as the Scions book thanks to the Scion Platoons present in the Guard book. Things also weren't helped by the $35 for 5 price tag on Scions either.

The Scion book was a total abortion of both background fluff and game design, no argument from me there, but they didn't need to ther own book or to be their own distinct army either for what was basically one infantry unit and a commander with new transport and a borrowed Commissar and Valkyrie entry

Scions, period, were poor in terms of background fluff...but at the same time they made a hell of a lot more sense than the original Stormtrooper Regiments.

Them as their own book/army would have worked if they focused on the 'elite infantry' aspect of them.

These are the same complaints just a different method since like 6th edition.

Allies, the ability for models from another army able to use spells or auras on their allies.
What keywords have solved, command points buying Stratagems has taken away.
The mingling of abilities designed for a different army codex will always create balance problems.

I agree 100% that the points and Stratagems should be confined to the army they are designed for.

Soup I thought initially was a big problem but it it not.
It is the interaction of rules for one army applying to another that is hard to design for and kills the balance we all like to see.

The mix can be pleasing to the eye and give some advantage in addressing the weaknesses of one army with the strengths of another.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Skitarii being separate from the rest of the AdMech never made much sense and the army was woefully incomplete on its own. The problem was that GW really just didn't appear to think through that project much and delivered two incomplete factions that didn't quite add up to a full complete army even when combined, and with 8E they really ham-fisted them together instead of taking the time to properly merge and flesh them out.

That fact that the MF'inf *AdMech* didnt even have a transport (and still doesnt really, the Termite in its current incarnation doesnt really fit well) is absurd.

This is completely wrong and to be honest, as a Skitarii player, I HATE being forced to take either a super expensive HQ for any amount of synergy or a cheap HQ that does diddly squat.

Also the Termite is fantastic (although maybe 10-20 points too expensive) so you can take that back as you know little about the army clearly.

Did they fix the termite issue where 5 of them could 1-shot a bunch of characters? Even without it, they're quite good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Skitarii being separate from the rest of the AdMech never made much sense and the army was woefully incomplete on its own. The problem was that GW really just didn't appear to think through that project much and delivered two incomplete factions that didn't quite add up to a full complete army even when combined, and with 8E they really ham-fisted them together instead of taking the time to properly merge and flesh them out.

That fact that the MF'inf *AdMech* didnt even have a transport (and still doesnt really, the Termite in its current incarnation doesnt really fit well) is absurd.

This is completely wrong and to be honest, as a Skitarii player, I HATE being forced to take either a super expensive HQ for any amount of synergy or a cheap HQ that does diddly squat.

Sounds like that syncs up pretty well with exactly what I said about it being a poorly planned out faction, I wish they'd had more stuff to fill out all those niches and balanced them better. They're a cool faction, but not one GW appeared to really flesh out well.

Unless you're just talking about having to take an HQ at all...

Also the Termite is fantastic (although maybe 10-20 points too expensive) so you can take that back as you know little about the army clearly.

*faints on couch* oh noes, someone disagrees with me so I automatically know nothing!

Calm down there pal.

As a general infantry transport, particularly in the common Imperial vein, it doesn't really fit that role (I wouldn't have ever considered the Hades Breaching Drill such either), and, more importantly, having your only transport be a $120 special-order model makes for an uncommonly seen unit, at least in my experience. There's no available on-shelf ~$40 transport Rhino/Chimera-esque transport option. I'm all for FW and love the stuff, but if thats your only option for a transport, particularly a faction whos fluff revolves around the Machine God and its Cult, something was missed in the codex development.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Skitarii being separate from the rest of the AdMech never made much sense and the army was woefully incomplete on its own. The problem was that GW really just didn't appear to think through that project much and delivered two incomplete factions that didn't quite add up to a full complete army even when combined, and with 8E they really ham-fisted them together instead of taking the time to properly merge and flesh them out.

That fact that the MF'inf *AdMech* didnt even have a transport (and still doesnt really, the Termite in its current incarnation doesnt really fit well) is absurd.

This is completely wrong and to be honest, as a Skitarii player, I HATE being forced to take either a super expensive HQ for any amount of synergy or a cheap HQ that does diddly squat.

Sounds like that syncs up pretty well with exactly what I said about it being a poorly planned out faction, I wish they'd had more stuff to fill out all those niches and balanced them better. They're a cool faction, but not one GW appeared to really flesh out well.

Unless you're just talking about having to take an HQ at all...

Let's be clear here:
The reason why the HQs don't really have synergy? It's because the HQs were designed for Cult Mechanicus, not Skitarii. The only one who really does anything is Cawl, who ties you specifically to Mars.

Also the Termite is fantastic (although maybe 10-20 points too expensive) so you can take that back as you know little about the army clearly.

*faints on couch* oh noes, someone disagrees with me so I automatically know nothing!

Calm down there pal.

As a general infantry transport, particularly in the common Imperial vein, it doesn't really fit that role (I wouldn't have ever considered the Hades Breaching Drill such either), and, more importantly, having your only transport be a $120 special-order model makes for an uncommonly seen unit, at least in my experience. There's no available on-shelf ~$40 transport Rhino/Chimera-esque transport option. I'm all for FW and love the stuff, but if thats your only option for a transport, particularly a faction whos fluff revolves around the Machine God and its Cult, something was missed in the codex development.

There's a couple of other transport options, but again they're still FW and they're tied to Cyraxus for us getting them in 40k proper.

Prior to this edition, Cult had access to Deep Strike for their HQ and Kataphron via a formation and Skitarii just had bonus move before the game started.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Skitarii being separate from the rest of the AdMech never made much sense and the army was woefully incomplete on its own. The problem was that GW really just didn't appear to think through that project much and delivered two incomplete factions that didn't quite add up to a full complete army even when combined, and with 8E they really ham-fisted them together instead of taking the time to properly merge and flesh them out.

That fact that the MF'inf *AdMech* didnt even have a transport (and still doesnt really, the Termite in its current incarnation doesnt really fit well) is absurd.

This is completely wrong and to be honest, as a Skitarii player, I HATE being forced to take either a super expensive HQ for any amount of synergy or a cheap HQ that does diddly squat.

Sounds like that syncs up pretty well with exactly what I said about it being a poorly planned out faction, I wish they'd had more stuff to fill out all those niches and balanced them better. They're a cool faction, but not one GW appeared to really flesh out well.

Unless you're just talking about having to take an HQ at all...

Let's be clear here:
The reason why the HQs don't really have synergy? It's because the HQs were designed for Cult Mechanicus, not Skitarii. The only one who really does anything is Cawl, who ties you specifically to Mars.

Sure, and I have no problem acknowledging that as an issue, hence my point about GW borking the whole AdMech (in the grand sense, not the specific keyword Cult Mechanicus) faction. When they introduced AdMech with Skitarii as a distinct faction, with the Cult Mechanicus following that up as a separate entity, that was an error, and neither line was really done well, and then they meshed them back together without really addressing any of their issues, and now we have something of an unnecessary artificial divide and a faction that lacks tons of stuff it really should have. I complained about that back then in 7E too

There's a couple of other transport options, but again they're still FW and they're tied to Cyraxus for us getting them in 40k proper.

Prior to this edition, Cult had access to Deep Strike for their HQ and Kataphron via a formation and Skitarii just had bonus move before the game started.

Yeah I remember the bonus move and Formation stuff, but it felt like a cheap cop out for not actually having developed a transport or additional armor elements. I love the models for the other transports, but as you noted, they're awkward to incorporate and are really expensive

Martel732 wrote:
36 extra shots. For 30 pts. That's what. I do it all the time. It's not fair, but I use it anyway.

You are assuming two barebones infantry squads within 6" of a single officer, both shooting at a target unit within 12" of both infantry squads.

Infantry squads are almost never run barebones first of all, so this is inaccurate.

Secondly, if the guard player is good enough to maneuver into this highly advantageous situation without you being able to lock him into melee, kill his officer, incapacitate his units, or debuff his troops somehow, then he deserves it. 36 extra shots of the weakest gun in the game shouldn't scare you too badly unless you are GEQ, considering that half of them are going to miss anyway.

This is 8th edition, first turn charges are a thing and many factions have access to them.

I still think guardsmen need to go to 5 points, but I fail to see why guard is such a boogeyman to some posters here. It isn't even the strongest mono-codex (Eldar). I think it has something to do with guard being a stronger faction than space marines in 8th, inducing nerd-rage cognitive dissonance.

I run them that way. To me, there's no other way TO run them. Giving them equipment seems self-defeating to me. Keep them cheap, all upside and no downside.

No one can first turn charge my guardsmen b/c scouts are in the way. They also have a tendency to be ignored. They are terrible targets when scouts are available. Although bringing 100+ fixes this issue as well.

Lasguns kill more points of meq than geq per volley. They kill even more points of eldar per volley. They also harm T5 3+ just like a bolter. They are stupid good compared to other sources of mid-range anti-infantry fire.

Martel732 wrote:
I run them that way. To me, there's no other way TO run them. Giving them equipment seems self-defeating to me. Keep them cheap, all upside and no downside.

No one can first turn charge my guardsmen b/c scouts are in the way. They also have a tendency to be ignored. They are terrible targets when scouts are available. Although bringing 100+ fixes this issue as well.

Lasguns kill more points of meq than geq per volley. They kill even more points of eldar per volley. They also harm T5 3+ just like a bolter. They are stupid good compared to other sources of mid-range anti-infantry fire.

So you made your guardsmen better by bringing in soup?

I could do the same by bringing 100+.

Really the guardsmen are making my marines better. 5 CP and better shooting than tacticals for a fraction of the price. And two smiters hiding behind it all.

Martel732 wrote:
I could do the same by bringing 100+.

Really the guardsmen are making my marines better. 5 CP and better shooting than tacticals for a fraction of the price. And two smiters hiding behind it all.

How are you ordering 100 Guardsmen? Because without orders, they don't shoot NEARLY as well.

You don't order the front ones. You use them as sacrificial goats taking the place of the scouts you were referring to.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't order the front ones. You use them as sacrificial goats taking the place of the scouts you were referring to.

But now the enemy is pretty much in your DZ, instead of being pushed back halfway across the board.

While IG can use Scout Sentinels for a similar purpose, they're a lot less good at taking up space than Scouts are. (Also Ratlings, but with 18"... Blech.)

I don't really care how close they are. As long as Capt smash, libby dread and Mephy are between my tanks and the enemy, I'm probably okayish. Especially since no one is flying over me now.

Slightly off topic, but I wish AdMech had a Ruststalker HQ. I think the Ruststalker leader model looks fantastic, and it seems like such a waste to have him just be a random grunt.

Martel732 wrote:
I run them that way. To me, there's no other way TO run them. Giving them equipment seems self-defeating to me. Keep them cheap, all upside and no downside.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'll always take a special weapon with them. Usually, I'll have either:

- Plasma Pistol (on sergeant) and Plasmagun or Flamer
or
- Plasmagun and Heavy Weapon Team (usually a Lascannon, but I've also used Missile Launchers and Autocannons on occasion)

The first one is what I use with Tallarn, the second is what I used for most other regiments. I used to mainly run the latter option, but I've since started to move away from Heavy Weapons, as I prefer the mobility of Tallarn (the Plasma Pistol is to make up for the lack of Heavy Weapon).

However, I do play lists that are basically all-infantry, so that might skew my choices a fair bit.

I know they are gonna die miserably. I KNOW this. They get nothing. Maybe mortars. I don't have the models, though. I'm new to IG.

The officer doesn't get a vox caster, because they are gonna die, too. 6" is fine. It's a 30 pt model.

But the temporal cost on the opponent is crushing. Even if they don't realize it. Every time they shoot a 4 pt dum dum, or even assault them, I'm pulling ahead. Unless I'm being forced to kill guardsmen, too.

Martel732 wrote:
I know they are gonna die miserably. I KNOW this. They get nothing. Maybe mortars. I don't have the models, though. I'm new to IG.

The officer doesn't get a vox caster, because they are gonna die, too. 6" is fine. It's a 30 pt model.

But the temporal cost on the opponent is crushing. Even if they don't realize it. Every time they shoot a 4 pt dum dum, or even assault them, I'm pulling ahead. Unless I'm being forced to kill guardsmen, too.

I agree, my IG squads are going to die. They've been doing this in 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e, & into early 6e. And, as the table tops have filled up with ever more crazy-large-dangerous models while I've been away, I'm sure that'll continue nowdays.
But that's no reason for me to discard a build pattern that's always served me well before. In fact, quite the opposite I think....

Have you ever heard the Boy Scout motto of "Be Prepared"? That's my basic IG squad. I'll pay those pts for the frag/krak grenades, melta-bombs, vox casters, special & heavy weapons. Hell, I'll bring those chimeras as well.
Every squad is capable of doing the job. Hold objectives? Check. Kill infantry? Check. Kill armor/high toughness things? Check.
I'd rather pay for gear & not need it, or even see it die, than have a squad facing something they can't effect* (though that's lessened here in 8th, & I'll roll for those lasguns, I'm still bringing the AT)

On "wasting" AT shots on mere infantry? I'm OK with that. Because it's either threatening me, in my way of achieving an objective, IS the objective, or maybe it's the only/best target in range/LoS. In any case, if I'm shooting it it's because I want it dead & I'll not fret about overkilling it. That & I have more AT weapons.
On killing basic infantry in general? See above. I'll kill whatever I need to win a game.

* I've seen plenty of that over the years. People bunching their heavy weapons (especially the AT) & not investing in squad options. And then when those HWT get killed they have no answer to tanks & such. And I love killing those armies.

I don't want to upset people, but putting stuff in your IG squads is just a bad idea. You are not giving yourself redundancy - you are just turning some of the least efficient to shoot units in the game into point pinatas.

Guardsmen are not hard to kill - but the problem is you wipe a squad and its just 40 points. The Guard/Imperial player has plenty of more stuff - and most likely, plenty of more guardsmen.

You load them up with a lascannon, and a plasma gun, give the sergeant some stuff, throw in a vox and suddenly I am getting double or more the return when I wipe the squad. Which I can still do just as easily before.