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Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

I will admit that the trio double melta has merit. I've probably pigeon-holed myself by bringing a patrol of TSons for Death Hex, the ability to 'turn off' invul saves.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!' 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Given 9th edition is about getting VP and not about killing. I do think its best to soup in something to help with objectives. I think its fine to go Superheavy detachment of knights. But souping in another detachment of CSM or daemons or DG or TS will help a lot on the objective front.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Eaton Rapids, MI

I agree but we can do it with super mobile Wardogs. They excel at the “ol’ charge and hack up whatever is on the objective to steal it” thing. The melee WarDog at 135 or 140 is a bargain for something so fast, tough and Killy. Going three double thermals and four melee Wardogs come in a 2k and a list that I imagine is even better would lean more into Wardogs instead of bigger knights. The times I’ve played 9 melee dogs, the games have been pretty fast and brutal lopsided wins.

We have a big event here in Michigan I’m starting to prepare for where I plan on using pure CK and unless we get a new book before then, it’s gonna be a ton of Wardogs. I’ll take some notes and post some results from practice games from here until the event in October.

Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Brymm wrote:
I agree but we can do it with super mobile Wardogs. They excel at the “ol’ charge and hack up whatever is on the objective to steal it” thing. The melee WarDog at 135 or 140 is a bargain for something so fast, tough and Killy. Going three double thermals and four melee Wardogs come in a 2k and a list that I imagine is even better would lean more into Wardogs instead of bigger knights. The times I’ve played 9 melee dogs, the games have been pretty fast and brutal lopsided wins.

We have a big event here in Michigan I’m starting to prepare for where I plan on using pure CK and unless we get a new book before then, it’s gonna be a ton of Wardogs. I’ll take some notes and post some results from practice games from here until the event in October.


Sounds great! Do keep us posted! I look forward to your notes and results! I would advice to try out Kornate target relic. A lot of lists are relying on invul nowadays and since knights can't really do mortal wounds, we need something to get through invuls. Otherwise, that big block of deathwing terminators will be unkillable even to knights.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

I've played 2 games against Space Wolves in the last month and won both! Statistically, the Psychic Awakening endless torment rule and the 9th edition storm shield nerf seems to have really shifted the balance between Chaos Knights and Space Wolves.

I drew level on VP by the end of turn 3 in this week's game, and by that time the cumulative annihilation meant turn 4 was a massacre. Kind of the opposite way round to what the tactics videos tell you. That was with the 1,800 pt list I posted earlier - 1 Desecrator, 1 Despoiler and 6 War Dogs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right now I'm thinking about increasing my army to 2,000 points. I wish GW made rules and models for Sacristans. Having a support vehicle that could repair knights mid-game would be awesome.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/06/26 07:14:57


https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/
Chaos Knights [1800]
Ultramarines [1200]
Hexfire 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Eaton Rapids, MI

Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Brymm wrote:
I agree but we can do it with super mobile Wardogs. They excel at the “ol’ charge and hack up whatever is on the objective to steal it” thing. The melee WarDog at 135 or 140 is a bargain for something so fast, tough and Killy. Going three double thermals and four melee Wardogs come in a 2k and a list that I imagine is even better would lean more into Wardogs instead of bigger knights. The times I’ve played 9 melee dogs, the games have been pretty fast and brutal lopsided wins.

We have a big event here in Michigan I’m starting to prepare for where I plan on using pure CK and unless we get a new book before then, it’s gonna be a ton of Wardogs. I’ll take some notes and post some results from practice games from here until the event in October.


Sounds great! Do keep us posted! I look forward to your notes and results! I would advice to try out Kornate target relic. A lot of lists are relying on invul nowadays and since knights can't really do mortal wounds, we need something to get through invuls. Otherwise, that big block of deathwing terminators will be unkillable even to knights.


Oh I will be keep you guys up to date. We also have a 2k team tournament on the Friday of that weekend, where two teammates each bring 1k of an army. We’re scored on theme, sportsmanship and painting and each is weighted as much as actually winning. My son and I are playing chaos knights and Salamanders. The theme is redemption! He’s purging a planet and my chaos knight house was shunned and betrayed by the dark gods in their moment of need, they are going out in a blaze of glory in hopes of redemption in the eyes of the emperor. Should be awesome. The plan for my 1k is a melee despoiler using a Gatling cannon, fist, dreadblade, relic gauntlet, eager WL trait, demonic vigor for the DB trait, house trait of A. Constitution and pride fueled fury. The rest of the list is melee WarDogs.

Gonna be sweet, the goal is just run at the opponent, probably die, explode and let my son mop up with salamanders!

Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Have the warmasters here had any success with taking the Tzeenchian Pyrothrone in order to take advantage of the Psychic secondaries? I'm theory-crafting that having a Rampager and a few Wardogs in the enemys face early on would allow a more shooty Questoris knight to stay in the middle and rack up points. However, I'm concerned with having a single point of failure unit hinging 15 victory points off of it.

And just to drum up some conversation, what do people currently prefer, Iconoclast vs Infernal, and why? How do you run your Knights?
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Seems like a big risk to take that secondary, mainly cos our knights cannot hide. And this is not even taking into account denies.

I usually take Iconoclast. But recently I have been thinking infernal might be good too in the current meta where a lot of anti tank weapons are Str 8.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Eaton Rapids, MI

That secondary isn’t all or nothing anymore. Seems like it isn’t a crazy idea but I imagine against a decent opponent, they will target that one guy, ie the only one who can score that objective right away.

Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot





bmsattler wrote:
Have the warmasters here had any success with taking the Tzeenchian Pyrothrone in order to take advantage of the Psychic secondaries? I'm theory-crafting that having a Rampager and a few Wardogs in the enemys face early on would allow a more shooty Questoris knight to stay in the middle and rack up points. However, I'm concerned with having a single point of failure unit hinging 15 victory points off of it.

And just to drum up some conversation, what do people currently prefer, Iconoclast vs Infernal, and why? How do you run your Knights?


Aside from the discussion around psychic secondaries...

This has been covered in various places before, but think carefully about the Rampager in lists with a more serious/competitive leaning.

It costs 15 points more than a melee focused Despoiler, but it is functionally identical. Stat line is the same, weapons are the same. The Rampager get's one additional rule for those points, but that rule has no real impact in the majority of games. The extra hits only apply to the Gauntlet or Chainsaw, not feet, so you're unlikely to see more than one extra hit generated (and often, none at all). The damage that the Chainsaw or Gauntlet will do anyway is such that, when they are, it's quite likely to be overkill on the target.

For that same 15 points, you could instead take the LOS ignoring carapace weapon on your melee Despoiler, and absolutely see benefit from it every turn.

The Rampager isn't bad, it's just not points efficient when you're really min-maxing. So it's only truly useful when you want an extra 'cheap' Knight, and already have three Despoilers in your list.

The final nail in it's coffin is that you can get the extra rule on your melee Despoiler, for free, via the Frenzied Attackers Household Trait.

To truly frighten an opponent with a melee threat, take the (admittedly more expensive) Magaera with that same trait, and enjoy an average of (with Iconoclast and a Warlord trait) 21 Str 8, -3, D3 attacks per round.

That thing can shoot in combat, and gets to use it's invuln in melee for free too...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/05 17:01:19


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'll be honest, I was mostly looking for a caddy for the Gauntlet of Ascension. Full rerolls to hit and wound, hitting on a 2+ is pretty nice. So is access to the Deathgrip strat. There are a lot of characters that it would be nice to snipe, such as Skitarii Marshals and Dark Eldar of all types. I was looking for a fast unit that could get past some screens and start removing buffing characters.

I hear what you are saying on the Rampager, and I'll look at whether I'll keep it or swap it down. The melee knights role would be to snipe characters/vehicles and draw fire away from the rest of the lance.

I do really like the Magaera and have the ability to take some. That's one reason I was asking about Iconoclast vs Infernal. The Lightning Cannon is perfect to boost to Str 8 and flat 4 damage. It feels like a difference in emphasis between melee and shooting, and shooting is a little less risky.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

I take the Tzeenchian Pyrothrone, but not for that secondary. Being able to smite and deny is cool, but standing around for a whole turn doing nothing so you can perform an action isn't when you have the firepower of a knight.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/
Chaos Knights [1800]
Ultramarines [1200]
Hexfire 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




My understanding of psychic actions is that they allow you to move, fight, and shoot. You just can't use any psychic powers. Otherwise I agree, its a complete waste of a knight.
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

The only thing that disallows Paychic Actions is falling back, and the only thing that Psychic Actions disallow is casting other psychic powers.

I've always found the Pyrothrone to be a solid inclusion for that reason - Warp Ritual is a fairly easy secondary to pick up in the right matchup.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Ah yes, I stand corrected

Interestingly, psychic actions don't have the same exception about falling back for TITANIC units as normal psychic powers do.






https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/
Chaos Knights [1800]
Ultramarines [1200]
Hexfire 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




A check on my understanding of Summoning: As long as I have a chaos character and some left over points, I can not move, roll the 3d6 for power level, and bring in a unit of demons without having to put them in a detachment slot? I'm also guessing that they would not get ObSec even if they were troops as that is a detachment ability?
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





Hi ! I was thinking about building a chaos knights list after a relative gifted me a Knight Tyrant kit.

I haven't played them before and I was wondering: If I want to build a fighty Iconoclast list with 3 big knights and 3 war dogs, should the dogs be ranged (autocannons) to stay on objectives in the back or close combat focused (chain-cleaver) to follow the big bots ?

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Eaton Rapids, MI

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Hi ! I was thinking about building a chaos knights list after a relative gifted me a Knight Tyrant kit.

I haven't played them before and I was wondering: If I want to build a fighty Iconoclast list with 3 big knights and 3 war dogs, should the dogs be ranged (autocannons) to stay on objectives in the back or close combat focused (chain-cleaver) to follow the big bots ?


It depends on how you want to play! Again, iconoclast knights without a dedicated melee weapon are still melee monsters. We have a super flexible army in that way. But something to note, a auto cannon iconoclast WarDog is okay in melee for one round, getting a decent number of high strength AP-1 attacks, but after that, those Wardogs don’t have a stomp attack. They will have 4 str 6 ap0 d1 attacks, which sucks.

After my first few games of 9th I found I needed ways to control my back field objectives to score max primary points (which is an important point because you may have read that we have a hard time with reliable secondaries), and two auto cannon Wardogs fill that role nicely. They are rarely targeted because we have lumbering giants right up in the opponent’s face turns 1-2, demanding attention.

As I posted above, I have gotten a lot of mileage focusing on more Wardogs supporting 2 larger knights, allowing me to be more places, applying pressure at different points and applying my household trait more often (think about infamous hereditary applying to more often).

Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 Brymm wrote:
DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Hi ! I was thinking about building a chaos knights list after a relative gifted me a Knight Tyrant kit.

I haven't played them before and I was wondering: If I want to build a fighty Iconoclast list with 3 big knights and 3 war dogs, should the dogs be ranged (autocannons) to stay on objectives in the back or close combat focused (chain-cleaver) to follow the big bots ?


It depends on how you want to play! Again, iconoclast knights without a dedicated melee weapon are still melee monsters. We have a super flexible army in that way. But something to note, a auto cannon iconoclast WarDog is okay in melee for one round, getting a decent number of high strength AP-1 attacks, but after that, those Wardogs don’t have a stomp attack. They will have 4 str 6 ap0 d1 attacks, which sucks.

After my first few games of 9th I found I needed ways to control my back field objectives to score max primary points (which is an important point because you may have read that we have a hard time with reliable secondaries), and two auto cannon Wardogs fill that role nicely. They are rarely targeted because we have lumbering giants right up in the opponent’s face turns 1-2, demanding attention.

As I posted above, I have gotten a lot of mileage focusing on more Wardogs supporting 2 larger knights, allowing me to be more places, applying pressure at different points and applying my household trait more often (think about infamous hereditary applying to more often).


I had exactly this setup again yesterday evening - 2 Titanic knights in the enemy's face, supported by 6 War Dogs (2 of which are the autocannon variety)...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 17:41:04


https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/
Chaos Knights [1800]
Ultramarines [1200]
Hexfire 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





 Brymm wrote:
DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Hi ! I was thinking about building a chaos knights list after a relative gifted me a Knight Tyrant kit.

I haven't played them before and I was wondering: If I want to build a fighty Iconoclast list with 3 big knights and 3 war dogs, should the dogs be ranged (autocannons) to stay on objectives in the back or close combat focused (chain-cleaver) to follow the big bots ?


It depends on how you want to play! Again, iconoclast knights without a dedicated melee weapon are still melee monsters. We have a super flexible army in that way. But something to note, a auto cannon iconoclast WarDog is okay in melee for one round, getting a decent number of high strength AP-1 attacks, but after that, those Wardogs don’t have a stomp attack. They will have 4 str 6 ap0 d1 attacks, which sucks.

After my first few games of 9th I found I needed ways to control my back field objectives to score max primary points (which is an important point because you may have read that we have a hard time with reliable secondaries), and two auto cannon Wardogs fill that role nicely. They are rarely targeted because we have lumbering giants right up in the opponent’s face turns 1-2, demanding attention.

As I posted above, I have gotten a lot of mileage focusing on more Wardogs supporting 2 larger knights, allowing me to be more places, applying pressure at different points and applying my household trait more often (think about infamous hereditary applying to more often).


Thanks !

I also thought about making a dog heavy list and taking the Harrying Packs custom house bond. Though, since I also play TS I thought about taking a rubric detachment to get rid of invulnerable saves and stick to objectives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 17:57:20


-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

If you run a lot of War Dogs then Endless Torment is excellent for the autocannons and thermal spears.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/
Chaos Knights [1800]
Ultramarines [1200]
Hexfire 
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






Eldenfirefly wrote:
Seems like a big risk to take that secondary, mainly cos our knights cannot hide. And this is not even taking into account denies.

I usually take Iconoclast. But recently I have been thinking infernal might be good too in the current meta where a lot of anti tank weapons are Str 8.


I've used that for Psychic ritual with my Knights army, folks don't expect it and it's pretty easy to score if you leave enough threats elsewhere. Helps if you save a few pts to summon a psychic demon as well to cast the power.

Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





 dreadblade wrote:
If you run a lot of War Dogs then Endless Torment is excellent for the autocannons and thermal spears.


True ! But taking a major bond (i.e only one) hurts my soul.

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 jaredb wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Seems like a big risk to take that secondary, mainly cos our knights cannot hide. And this is not even taking into account denies.

I usually take Iconoclast. But recently I have been thinking infernal might be good too in the current meta where a lot of anti tank weapons are Str 8.


I've used that for Psychic ritual with my Knights army, folks don't expect it and it's pretty easy to score if you leave enough threats elsewhere. Helps if you save a few pts to summon a psychic demon as well to cast the power.


Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't considered summoning in a demon for redundancy and I really like that suggestion!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




For a good number of War Dogs armed with double lightning locks, which would you value more; fall back and shoot or 1 extra AP within 12 ''? Fall back and shoot seems to be a better option vs Drukari, and vs. AdMech + Space Marines AP -3 is a really big deal.
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






I have my first tournament coming up since covid started (it's next weekend). Looks to be around 12 folks showing up, and I'm going to bring my Chaos Knights, mostly as I don't want to deal with moving a lot of models in a 2.5 hour round.

Running the following.


Plasma/Volcano Tyrant
Thunderstrike Glove Desecrator
4 thermal War Dogs
2 Autocannon War Dogs

I have 85pts spare for summoning (which I'll use to summon a herald of Tzeentch (fatecaster, changecaster? whatever they are called now).

Looking to run Iconoclast, with pinpoint cruelty, and the +1 move and always move max speed traits.

I'll let you folks know how it goes!

Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





 jaredb wrote:
I have my first tournament coming up since covid started (it's next weekend). Looks to be around 12 folks showing up, and I'm going to bring my Chaos Knights, mostly as I don't want to deal with moving a lot of models in a 2.5 hour round.

Running the following.


Plasma/Volcano Tyrant
Thunderstrike Glove Desecrator
4 thermal War Dogs
2 Autocannon War Dogs

I have 85pts spare for summoning (which I'll use to summon a herald of Tzeentch (fatecaster, changecaster? whatever they are called now).

Looking to run Iconoclast, with pinpoint cruelty, and the +1 move and always move max speed traits.

I'll let you folks know how it goes!


Good luck !

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Eaton Rapids, MI

Alright guys, I need a little help with a math problem applied to the current game!

Endless Torment vs Infamous Hereditary/Pinpoint Cruelty

A list running two double thermal despoilers with indirect fire tops and a plasma/volcano Tyrant, along with three thermal dogs.

Both versions of traits seems extremely useful, I just figure one variant has to be better!

Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in fi
Fresh-Faced New User




 Brymm wrote:
Alright guys, I need a little help with a math problem applied to the current game!

Endless Torment vs Infamous Hereditary/Pinpoint Cruelty

A list running two double thermal despoilers with indirect fire tops and a plasma/volcano Tyrant, along with three thermal dogs.

Both versions of traits seems extremely useful, I just figure one variant has to be better!


I've been thinking about the same choice myself. Quick coffee break excel sheet shows that Endless thermal cannon gives 21% increase in damage while Infamous Pinpoint gives 23% increase in damage compared to standard issue thermal cannon.

Endless thermal spear gives 15% increase in damage while Infamous Pinpoint thermal spear gives 42% increase in damage compared to standard issue thermal spear.

Infamous Pinpoint combo also benefits wardogs' close combat to some extent but despoilers don't gain that much to stomping. Obviously the more random shot guns you have the better Endless torment is and fewer guns and more melee makes Infamous Pinpoint combo better. I don't know how to estimate the breakpoint. In your case I suppose Endless torment is better but if you'd for example replace Tyrant with rampager and wardog I'd say Infamous Pinpoint combo would be better.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Eaton Rapids, MI

That’s great! In practice with Endless on the Tyrant, it is such a stabilizer especially when popping the reroll hits strat. In fact, that almost made the choice for me: my main damage platform will always be rerolling hits due to the Trail of Destruction stratagem. In the the few practice games, it makes me believe I feel what it must of felt like to play a Castellen in 8th with all of the loyalist nonsense.


Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
 
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