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So I have weirdly mixed feelings about FWS. It's not amazing, but I'm really enjoying seeing SO MANY elements of Captain America's world onscreen together in a grounded, Cap-like story. It's fun for comics Cap fans...or at least this one.

Trouble is that it's lacking Steve Rogers himself. This is the type of material that I would have liked to seen in Avengers 2.5 -- erm, I mean Cap 3 -- instead of a mediocre "Civil War" retelling that gives Tony Stark the main character arc. Just kinda underlines for me how much I wish they'd handled the character differently. I understand that their version worked "for what they needed" -- always the consideration in the MCU -- but it was so thin and missed important aspects of the character. Maybe in the next go-around...


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Im enjoying it because i always liked relatively low power and ground stuff than big power fests. So im loving it.

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There are good stories about the shadow steve rogers casts. Thats how i see this one. Steve is still basically the central character. Just how is everyone going to live up to him?


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 gorgon wrote:

Trouble is that it's lacking Steve Rogers himself. This is the type of material that I would have liked to seen in Avengers 2.5 -- erm, I mean Cap 3 -- instead of a mediocre "Civil War" retelling that gives Tony Stark the main character arc. Just kinda underlines for me how much I wish they'd handled the character differently. I understand that their version worked "for what they needed" -- always the consideration in the MCU -- but it was so thin and missed important aspects of the character. Maybe in the next go-around...

I can't say I miss Steve in this. But Civil War was inevitably going to be 'thin' as a film (let alone an ensemble film). Its too big and nuanced to work in 90-120 (or even 150) minute big screen blockbuster where you've got to name and power check everyone, and have the big dramatic face off. The Disney+ shows are a much better place for it, as you can explore consequences, and render opinions as more than a soundbite.


 AduroT wrote:
Loki is the one I’ve been looking forward to.


I'm looking forward to it less now. I thought it was going to be a vehicle for AU Loki to end up in the main MCU (and maybe that's still where it will wrap around to in the end), but time shenanigans automatically undercut the stakes a lot. It no longer matters what happens to anyone in the show, as it can just be 'fixed' by liberal application of whatever flavor of 'time magic.'

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Comic Civil War also had far more character to work with as well and not always... good accurate or sensical depiction of said characters.

At least it wasn't Civil War 2.

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Well, the sprawling comics Civil War (think there was over 100 tie-in issues?) was never suited for was billed to be (at least in very small print, LOL) a Cap solo film.

By including characters like John Walker and Isaiah Bradley and more screen time for Sharon, Bucky and Sam, this show is the kind of sphere expansion for Cap that I would have liked to have seen in a *real* Cap 3. It feels like a continuation of TWS, and I appreciate the creators for that. And in a non-Civil War Cap 3, maybe we could have seen the character actually become something other than a paper-thin 'man out of time' meme generator. In the comics, he symbolizes a living, evolving America. Not someone unable to move on from the past. But I'll spare everyone the diatribe.

Clearly the MCU's approach to the character worked for what the studio needed, and it was generally popular with audiences. It's fine, and I totally get that the movies aren't the comics. I just wish I'd seen a different treatment as a Cap fan. And it's disappointing because after TWS, I thought there were *really* starting to get there. Like I said, maybe in the next incarnation...which WILL come eventually. *shrug* In the meantime, I enjoy the show but it feels like it's teasing me with what could have been for a Cap fan like me. That's all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 17:01:30


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Sorry, Civil War was Cap 3.

It's main drive was Steve/Bucky.

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Now then then now now then now!

Spoiler:
A significant increase in pace and stakes.

Kinda new Lamar was for it when that fight kicked off.

Still not convinced the Flag Smashers are at all justified, which is almost certainly deliberate. As Zemo said, they’re supremacist in their approach.

John Walker, what a dick.

Lovely to see the Dora Malije back and kicking arse. I kind of like they’ve not mentioned T’Challa, what with Chadwick’s sad passing last year.


If people haven’t watched this show yet, I’m starting to lean toward “binge it” over the episodic view. It doesn’t have quite the same slow burn approach of WandaVision, which i largely appreciate. Certainly nice to see them not having an entirely set template for the TV shows, as they don’t really have one for the Movies.

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They fridged him! I expected it, but still bummed. He was a good dude.

 
   
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Wow.

That final scene...

Spoiler:
Is this the first time we've heard about Bucky actually getting the serum? Up until now I thought he was just at "normal dude with a bionic arm" levels of power.

Who else forgot that Sam started out in the MCU as a trauma councillor? Who else was really glad to see him actually do that and begin to get through to someone?

Walker has gone completely off the rails, but in a way that at least makes sense.

In fact everyone's motivations seem to make sense.

Zemo's tiny moment of hesitation when he saw the vials. "Supersoldiers are evil. But maybe if I was a supersoldier I could stop all the rest of them...Nah" <StompStompStomp>. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the last we see of him in this series - he did what he set out to do and got rid of the remaining serum. He'll be quite content to let others kill the remaining supersoldiers. But I hope that's not the last of him in the MCU.

How the hell long has Karli been a displaced person? The blip was 5 years long, but she has no memory of her parents - well, maybe. Erin Kellyman's accent seems a bit jarring with that, though. And given that WandaVision paid quite a lot of attention to accents, I'm not certain that it's an accident.


Spoiler:
Also - loved NuCap getting the "we have jurisdiction wherever we damn well feel like it" card played on him, rather than by him

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 09:50:38


 
   
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We’ve known Bucky was a super Soldier for a while. He does some feats of strength and such beyond just metal arm. It doesn’t really get talked about a whole lot though.

Also I remembered Sam was a councilor if only because recently I saw a post on tumblr analyzing his first conversation with Steve and breaking down the various therapy techniques he was using to get thru to him and get him to open up.

 
   
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Yeah I wasn’t previously aware Bucky had received serum.

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Really? Given all he does in Winter Soldier and Civil War you thought he was just a regular dude with a metal arm?

Anyway, it finally happened. I don't know how no one noticed him taking the serum, given we know the immediate effects are that it makes you feel like your blood is on fire. When did he take it? How did Battlestar not notice (not that he can tell anyone now).

On the bright side, at least Walker didn't inexplicably pull his gun on a bunch of kids.

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Oh. Apparently Bucky was a super soldier even before Winter Soldier. I knew Hydra did it to him but thought it was part of that. Checking for a source on that I have now learned it was when he was first captured, before Captain America first broke all the prisoners out in the first movie. Zola had used him for experiments and injected him with it way back then, and that was why he survived the later fall from the train before he was recaptured and Winterized.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I went and dug up that post about Sam being a councilor for Steve.

https://thesuperheroesnetwork.tumblr.com/post/645952590125875200/imposterogers-one-thing-i-dont-think-sam-wilson

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 10:33:10


 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Really? Given all he does in Winter Soldier and Civil War you thought he was just a regular dude with a metal arm?

I mean we have seen normal humans pull off some insane feats in MCU, like Black Widow.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sorry, Civil War was Cap 3.

It's main drive was Steve/Bucky.


The main character arc was Tony Stark's. Steve was just his foil.

Edit: Plus significant time is spent building up both Spidey and BP. Neither of whom are close to being regulars in Cap stories. The film was Avengers 2.5...I don't even know you could be arguing against that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 17:53:43


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I genuinely can't work out what this show is trying to say.

Are the Flag Smashers sympathetic? No... they intentionally kill civilians and went out of their way to (attempt to) kill the new Captain America.

Is the new Captain America sympathetic? No. He seems unhinged, but unhinged because the plot keeps making him unhinged. Serum not withstanding, the man sitting in that locker room at the start of the series is a very different one to the petulant screaming reactionary that we saw in this episode, and that was before he could bend metal.

Is Sam a good guy? Well, he sides with the Flag Smashers, who it's unclear if we're meant to like or not.

Is Bucky a good guy? He broke fething Zemo out of jail.

About the only unambiguous group in this show are the damned Wakandans. At least they're honest about what they're doing.

 gorgon wrote:
The main character arc was Tony Stark's.
I completely disagree.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 18:04:06


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I’m enjoying being taken along for the ride, but do agree that it’s a bit unclear what the aim is. I think the flag smashers are supposed to be sympathetic bad guys and the new captain America is supposed to be righteous but overzealous, and we’re supposed not to be entirely on side or against either, with Sam and Bucky as the middle ground. I do t think they’ve really managed it, but I’m still enjoying the show.

What I didn’t like was the reaction to killing
Spoiler:
Battlestar


Why did the flag smashers run? Weren’t they trying to kill the people attacking them? There was even a comment shortly beforehand about being armed with knives. Admittedly knives aren’t guns, but knives are hardly nom-lethal, especially in the hands of super soldiers.
   
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I'm still enjoying it. Walker's clearly gone into Crisis Mode from the pressure he's under, and the weight of expectations and a huge dose of imposter and inferiority syndrome.

So he's making bad choice after bad choice after bad choice. That he's now been caught out, and everything is unravelling further for him.

The Flagsmashers are supposed to be sympathetic... To a point.
The same could be said with Walker.

I think, thematically speaking, both Karli and Walker are designed to exhibit certain traits of Steve, - The inspirational person that fights for Truth, the little guy, what is Morally Right. Then, the heroic soldier, the Captain, the fighter, devoted to Duty.

Yet, both of them fall short in disastrous ways. Karli *fails* at being the Heroic Soldier, by targeting functionally innocents. Walker has failed at being the inspiration, spectacularly at the end of the episode. And, no doubt, will end up being a source of fear and terror (probably intentional parallels here with modern America on various aspects of the world stage.)

Then there's the questions throughout the episode of 'would you take the serum?' To me, that's clearly going for a, "the best leader is one who does not want to be one" aesop. I think the idea is, like the previous poster said, Sam represents the middle ground, he has the traits of Steve, that are exhibited by Karli and Walker, but he doesn't have their flaws, what makes them both, ultimately villains, albeit sympathetic ones.
- Admittedly I don't know where Bucky fits into this, I'm still struggling to figure out his role in the narrative, except perhaps as the Obi-Wan.


I would not be surprised if we have a situation by the end where Sam is forced to become a supersoldier for some reason, quite possibly actively against his will. Or maybe a situation where the only option to save the world from Something Bad, is to inject himself with a serum.

So, yeah, overall, I'm enjoying it. 6 episodes still seems a little short for everything they're doing though... Possibly 8 would have been the better number.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 18:37:53


 
   
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I think all the serum is gone, so I can't see Sam getting any.

And I think one of the messages is "things can be very complicated"
   
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It just feels like, 'one last vial' is exactly the sort of twist they'd throw into the final episode, to me.
   
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Spoiler:
I am really enjoying Zemo's quest. The number of times he's managed to escape, and then comes back to Sam and Bucky. His purity of purpose in trying to kill supersoldiers makes him utterly reliable right up until he runs out of flagsmashers and finally takes on Bucky. When he does- will it be a fight, or some sort of previously unrevealed winter soldier suicide code?

I love the use of Turkish delight too, once again cementing it as the evil dessert of villians working with reluctant children everywhere.

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Bucky has been "enhanced" in some way since WWII in Cap 1 when he was being experimented on by Zola.

Remember. Cap breaks into the prison/manufacturing plant. The soldier are all in cages (supposedly as guinnie pigs for zola) and Bucky was strapped to a table with medical equipment all around him.

Where did they get some super soldier serum from? Red Skull.

Bucky survived the fall from the train because of the experiments done to him. It didn't go full super soldier until later after he was recovered and continued to be experimented on though. Not explicitly stated, but assumed since he IS enhanced and they didn't have the whole beta ray chamber that Erskine used on steve to activate the serum.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I genuinely can't work out what this show is trying to say.

Are the Flag Smashers sympathetic? No... they intentionally kill civilians and went out of their way to (attempt to) kill the new Captain America.

Is the new Captain America sympathetic? No. He seems unhinged, but unhinged because the plot keeps making him unhinged. Serum not withstanding, the man sitting in that locker room at the start of the series is a very different one to the petulant screaming reactionary that we saw in this episode, and that was before he could bend metal.

I largely agree with rest, but disagree with this. Walker is exactly who he was in the locker room- a scared child who is in way over his head. His reactions are simply getting worse as the pressure increases.

But... I also think he's intentionally unsympathetic to a degree that is fairly absurd.

Also the writers are clueless about the Medal of Honor and that's really grating on me. I've done work with soldiers who've actually been awarded it (none of them talk about 'earning' it), and getting two is pretty absurd now (three has never happened, iirc. It was recommended once, but the the members of the military board went with Distinguished Service Cross instead), and multiple for the same action just doesn't happen (it legally can't happen now, and that's been the case since about WWI). They way they've handled him crossed the line into fairly offensive.


---
I really like how they're handling Zemo, though. Yes, he's a donkey. But his devotion to his goal managed to surprise and impress me. I absolutely did not expect him to apply his boot to the windfall that landed at his feet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/10 02:46:33


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Aash wrote:

Why did the flag smashers run? Weren’t they trying to kill the people attacking them? There was even a comment shortly beforehand about being armed with knives. Admittedly knives aren’t guns, but knives are hardly nom-lethal, especially in the hands of super soldiers.


It caught me slightly off guard too, but I think there’s a couple of good reasons; one is that they had just realised that Walker had taken the serum and they weren’t prepared for fighting a super soldier, never mind a really pissed off one. Secondly is that they’re a bunch of ideological civilians who, aside from Karli’s bombing, haven’t actually killed before, certainly not up-close; it’s one thing to talk about killing an enemy, even psyching yourself up to confront them, but actually going through with it? They’re not trained for it and I just don’t think they’ve got it in them.
   
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Exactly - and they certainly weren't keen on Karli's bombing in the first place. That seems to be something she did by herself.
   
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Voss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I genuinely can't work out what this show is trying to say.

Are the Flag Smashers sympathetic? No... they intentionally kill civilians and went out of their way to (attempt to) kill the new Captain America.

Is the new Captain America sympathetic? No. He seems unhinged, but unhinged because the plot keeps making him unhinged. Serum not withstanding, the man sitting in that locker room at the start of the series is a very different one to the petulant screaming reactionary that we saw in this episode, and that was before he could bend metal.

I largely agree with rest, but disagree with this. Walker is exactly who he was in the locker room- a scared child who is in way over his head. His reactions are simply getting worse as the pressure increases.

But... I also think he's intentionally unsympathetic to a degree that is fairly absurd.

I really like how they're handling Zemo, though. Yes, he's a donkey. But his devotion to his goal managed to surprise and impress me. I absolutely did not expect him to apply his boot to the windfall that landed at his feet.


There's a huge missed opportunity on Walker really.

On the one hand they've really nailed the core of the character. Walker is someone who says he idolizes Steve Rogers, and maybe he did, but it's very clear he cared about all the wrong things in Steve's career. What made Captain America Captain America was his idealism and willingness to screw the rules and do what's right. In that regard, Falcon is doing what I think Steve would be doing in this situation, and try to reach out to the Flag Smashers before beating them. Captain America is what everyone wants America to be, our best selves. Walker on the other hand is what America is. A knee jerk reactionary more interested in taking action for the sake of action and doubles down on violent retribution with little rhyme or reason. Walker isn't a bad guy, but he clearly doesn't have Steve's heart and it was Steve's heart that made him Cap, not the shield and not the super soldier serum. Walker is cracking under the pressure of a job he simply is not suited for.

They've botched it largely because the set up for the story is insufficient. If Falcon and Carly weren't explaining what is going on in the world, I wouldn't know. The story has really done a bad job showcasing the humanitarian crisis they're talking about, so it makes Carly needlessly unsympathetic in how her goals and the problems she wants to address are ill defined, so it's hard to get past what her actions are. It also makes Walker just look like kind of a prick for being a prick, rather than mistaken and over his head because he's a soldier playing at being a (super)hero.

I do think Zemo is great too though, and suspect he and Walker are the 'true' villains of the plot.

 Graphite wrote:
I think all the serum is gone, so I can't see Sam getting any.

And I think one of the messages is "things can be very complicated"


I think there's also a clear message in the story that the shield and the serum aren't what made Captain America Captain America.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/04/10 14:42:28


   
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For all the talk about Sam being a counselor he manages to miss the Undiagnosed PTSD in Walker. C'mon its one of Hollywood's favorite tropes broken soldiers will always lash out violently at some point. They've definitely been way to heavy handed so far.

I also think Voss is largely right wrt the handling of Walker as well as the MOH and I agree with him about the line crossing.
   
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I agree that an extra episode or two to set the scene during the snap and after the return, show them as victims, for at least a while. Right I'm not sympathetic for them at all. They're a cultist terrorist group and the serum takers are destined for the Raft.

As is Walker. The locker room scene at the start wasn't quite enough to bring me in on his side. But then maybe it wasn't meant to, not really. He was always going to be a pretender and it was only a matter of time before he failed.
   
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Jerram wrote:
For all the talk about Sam being a counselor he manages to miss the Undiagnosed PTSD in Walker. C'mon its one of Hollywood's favorite tropes broken soldiers will always lash out violently at some point. They've definitely been way to heavy handed so far.


Well to be fair, he hasn't been with Walker in a situation where diagnosing/counseling is on the agenda at all. Its usually a fight, gearing up to a fight, or Walker forcing a weird confrontation at the police station. There isn't room for a authentic or honest evaluation in those situations, and Walker is wrapped up in a lot of emotional baggage for Sam specifically (as the guy who has The Shield), so Sam would be a terrible person to do it.

MarkNorfolk wrote:I agree that an extra episode or two to set the scene during the snap and after the return, show them as victims, for at least a while. Right I'm not sympathetic for them at all. They're a cultist terrorist group and the serum takers are destined for the Raft.

As is Walker. The locker room scene at the start wasn't quite enough to bring me in on his side. But then maybe it wasn't meant to, not really. He was always going to be a pretender and it was only a matter of time before he failed.


I didn't think the locker room scene was meant to put people on his side. It really struck me as highlighting (by taking him back to his high school days) his insecurity in his new role. It was a weird combination of nostalgia (appropriate for a new Cap- looking back on the 'glory days' of Cap while looking back on his football 'glory days'), and how unprepared he is (who came out of high school prepared to deal with the real world?)

As for Karli and the Flagsmashers... eh. They danced on the line at first, where they were set up to look bad (to the audience) through the eyes of Falcon's military contact guy, but then a twist, they're aiding refugees and hiding from an actual bad guy. Its all very noble Robin Hood vibes, hands dirty but not that bad.
Spoiler:
But then all the nuance goes away with the bombing. The GRC seems ineffective, but with good intentions (and a really creepy in-universe advertisement that makes them sound suspicious); so killing them is just stupidly heavy handed and suddenly frames the story as 'no, they're absolutely bad too.' [As an aside, the sidekick's moral moment at the gravestone was really weird. The 'if you're afraid of doing the wrong thing, you're probably right' does NOT apply in this situation. Blatantly so when murder is on the agenda.]


Its a bad sign when Zemo comes across as more sympathetic than the 'rebels with a cause, trying to help people'. But I'm a sucker for villains with reasoned motivations and consistent code that makes sense to them even if its overly ruthless and nasty.
And it turns out he now seems completely right about Karli- she's lashing out because she can now, not because she's morally correct (or actually helping people, especially from now on).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/10 22:12:41


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