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In short, we coven now with a small wych supplement.
But also Ravager seem nicer too. With Trueborn going up and the Raider, together with a basic load out its 250pts (maybe even 260 if you want some extras) 2 Ravagers are 260pts.....
Talos and Grots being cheaper is nice, Haemonculus is -10pt tax now at least
Archon didn't need +5pts... wtf Bloodbrides are now unplayable.... thanks GW Flyers are a little cheaper, still not cheap enough, they just don't do enough, especially when the Ravager is 130pts
Raider got hit a little to hard IMO.
Succubus before players were taking 3 a 3rd one with nothing on it or just a small relic, now that will never happen, she wasn't worth her points without a relic/wlt combo, now you must take the combos to even want her... so sad.
Beasts still not touched
BSF Ur-ghoul not touched
Court not touched
Trueborn are meh now
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/09 22:07:44
Tyel wrote: Succubus: +20 (probably fair-- but oof)
Bleh. I don't run wyches, but I was under the impression that Succubi were already pretty mediocre at what their fluff says they're supposed to be good at (dueling), given their lack of non-relic Damage 2 or Damage D3 melee weapons.
Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Argent Shroud), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)
Tyel wrote: Succubus: +20 (probably fair-- but oof)
Bleh. I don't run wyches, but I was under the impression that Succubi were already pretty mediocre at what their fluff says they're supposed to be good at (dueling), given their lack of non-relic Damage 2 or Damage D3 melee weapons.
Succubi on the table are for sure equal to their fluff IF given a WLT and Relic, the pure datasheet is pretty bad.
Tyel wrote: Succubus: +20 (probably fair-- but oof)
Bleh. I don't run wyches, but I was under the impression that Succubi were already pretty mediocre at what their fluff says they're supposed to be good at (dueling), given their lack of non-relic Damage 2 or Damage D3 melee weapons.
Can't help but agree with this.
I'd been playing around with some fluffy-but-suboptimal Succubus builds. They probably wouldn't have achieved a whole lot (especially compared to the 'good' builds), but at least I could console myself that they were only 60pts. Now they're still just as bad but cost 80pts apiece. Thanks, GW.
Would it really have been so hard to just make their basic wargear less crap? Same goes for the Archon (who inexplicably went up in points). That way there wouldn't have been a massive leap in effectiveness if you took one of the melee artefacts.
But no, now you have to take a very specific combination of warlord trait and artefact if you want your HQ to even be worth its base cost.
Also, anyone know why Bloodbrides and Trueborn went up in cost? Trueborn were good, sure, but I'm not convinced they were that good. Personally, I was already struggling to justify them after the mandatory Archon-tax (plus the fact that there wasn't a whole lot else I even wanted from Kabal, since non-Trueborn Kabalites just suck). And Bloodbrides were a unit I was already struggling to justify at the best of times.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: Came back in the last few days after hearing about a big balance update. Turns out it's just the usual 'unit X is in now, unit Y is out'.
Shall we actually fix the problems with units? No, just randomly rearrange their point costs and call it a day.
Tyel wrote: Succubus: +20 (probably fair-- but oof)
Bleh. I don't run wyches, but I was under the impression that Succubi were already pretty mediocre at what their fluff says they're supposed to be good at (dueling), given their lack of non-relic Damage 2 or Damage D3 melee weapons.
Can't help but agree with this.
I'd been playing around with some fluffy-but-suboptimal Succubus builds. They probably wouldn't have achieved a whole lot (especially compared to the 'good' builds), but at least I could console myself that they were only 60pts. Now they're still just as bad but cost 80pts apiece. Thanks, GW.
Would it really have been so hard to just make their basic wargear less crap? Same goes for the Archon (who inexplicably went up in points). That way there wouldn't have been a massive leap in effectiveness if you took one of the melee artefacts.
But no, now you have to take a very specific combination of warlord trait and artefact if you want your HQ to even be worth its base cost.
Also, anyone know why Bloodbrides and Trueborn went up in cost? Trueborn were good, sure, but I'm not convinced they were that good. Personally, I was already struggling to justify them after the mandatory Archon-tax (plus the fact that there wasn't a whole lot else I even wanted from Kabal, since non-Trueborn Kabalites just suck). And Bloodbrides were a unit I was already struggling to justify at the best of times.
Trueborn with 2 blasters, a DL, and a Raider is now 10pts less than 2 Ravagers. So I dropped my Trueborn for 1 Ravager, my list can ot stay the same as before just I lose 10 wounds on the table. But I then dropped BB's for normal Wyches and picked up a 5man Wrack units to throw on objectives. Over all I lost maybe 2% of power.
This update honestly didn't help tone DE down in a good way at all, just in a bad way that frustrates DE players, but I guess the SM community is happy and that is all that matters to GW.....
I'm looking at starting a crusade army soon, and I know I want to build up into a real space raid over time, but I don't know which aspect of Commaragh to begin with.
We're playing 25 power level, going up 25 each month, so essentially over the first 3 months I'll add Kabal, coven and cult patrols into the mix.
I'm leaning towards a poison tongue Kabal, coven of 12 and cursed blade cult.
Do you think each of the lists has a distinct advantage at lower points vs at higher points?
Kabal: archon + incubi in venom, 10 warriors in a raider
Cult: Succubus + 10 wyches in raider, 5 wyches in venom, 3 reavers
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I'm looking at starting a crusade army soon, and I know I want to build up into a real space raid over time, but I don't know which aspect of Commaragh to begin with.
We're playing 25 power level, going up 25 each month, so essentially over the first 3 months I'll add Kabal, coven and cult patrols into the mix.
I'm leaning towards a poison tongue Kabal, coven of 12 and cursed blade cult.
Do you think each of the lists has a distinct advantage at lower points vs at higher points?
Kabal: archon + incubi in venom, 10 warriors in a raider
Cult: Succubus + 10 wyches in raider, 5 wyches in venom, 3 reavers
So for Crusade there is something to watch out for and that is transports, you have to declare where they go when you get them, this might change the order you want things.
Honestly At 25-50pl games being on small tables its going to be a rock, paper, scissor match anyways, Coven will be the best to hit the middle ground, yes coven are S tier in general for us right now but at 25/50 PL 1 succubus can win you the game, 1 Hellion unit can lock down their key unit, etc... Kabal over all is more of utility now, Archon with Court are still great with some transports, but at lower point level that is equal to Coven and can be stronger bc of the Archon not being able to be shot at, can HI,a nd fights them last, and Incubi punch above their weight easily too.
Coven will give you some tank and killing power but at the same time just slow enough for a turn or 2 to have your opponents given a real game. You also don't need transports right away.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/27 17:58:50
I know it's a bit early to speculate much but how do you think we'll handle tau again. Tau are always such a tough match-up for us. You get too close and you die and yet if they're anything like previous editions that's exactly how they'll be. That said the railgun hits so hard i dunno what we can do with our vehicles except spam em.
Also where are dark eldar as far as army tiers are considered right now.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I know it's a bit early to speculate much but how do you think we'll handle tau again. Tau are always such a tough match-up for us. You get too close and you die and yet if they're anything like previous editions that's exactly how they'll be. That said the railgun hits so hard i dunno what we can do with our vehicles except spam em.
Also where are dark eldar as far as army tiers are considered right now.
My most feared match up for anything not Coven sadly. With Suits able to shoot in melee there are no safe places anymore. But hopefully they are not as shooty as they are and instead of more shots their shots are just better (they have way to many right now if they get buffs, they need staying power buffs not more shooting buffs).
If you're seeing lots of Tau in your meta... I'm tempted to go full-bore triple-patrol of wyches and swarm the table with many, many wyches. No vehicles. In place of vehicles, use hellions, scourges and bikers.
Resurrect the old DE Footdar armies.
Max out using the Webway portals to incur pressure early.
Consider Mandrakes to hold objects, center tables.
On a decent tourny table, DE can bounce from obscuring terrain to obscuring terrain to pull of successful charges.
We still need more info on baseline suit stats and how markerlights will function. Expect the tanks to be BS4 base (educated inference from FW Hammerhead variants).
I genuinely expect accuracy maluses to really hurt Tau, but getting in their face is still looking to be a successful tactic. Especially if the enemy goes hard on railgun platforms.
whembly wrote: If you're seeing lots of Tau in your meta... I'm tempted to go full-bore triple-patrol of wyches and swarm the table with many, many wyches. No vehicles. In place of vehicles, use hellions, scourges and bikers.
Resurrect the old DE Footdar armies.
Max out using the Webway portals to incur pressure early.
Consider Mandrakes to hold objects, center tables.
On a decent tourny table, DE can bounce from obscuring terrain to obscuring terrain to pull of successful charges.
Wracks will do it much better for cheaper.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/05 22:21:03
whembly wrote: If you're seeing lots of Tau in your meta... I'm tempted to go full-bore triple-patrol of wyches and swarm the table with many, many wyches. No vehicles. In place of vehicles, use hellions, scourges and bikers.
Resurrect the old DE Footdar armies.
Max out using the Webway portals to incur pressure early.
Consider Mandrakes to hold objects, center tables.
On a decent tourny table, DE can bounce from obscuring terrain to obscuring terrain to pull of successful charges.
I was thinking of using bikers and maybe hellions but i'm not sure about scourge. I've always had bad experience with scourge doing too little and dying. Maybe that's changed but i wouldn't know.
I agree that negative aim modifiers would be great though vs tau and maybe that's good with mandrakes. Are venoms also a possibility? They have negative modifiers to be shot at but usually they can be spammed pretty easily. Sadly not much worthwhile can be put in them so maybe venoms are a waste of time.
I haven't played in a while due to 40k hobby fatigue but how are venoms in points vs raiders? If i recall an old tactic in WHFB 8th ed when cannons were used is using lots of large targets or none at all and no in between. Perhaps spammed transports or cheap vehicles will be like a sniper rifle vs a swarm.
Obsession
. *Custom Coven*: Artists of the Flesh (All-Consuming)
+ Stratagems +
Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City [-1CP]
+ No Force Org Slot +
Court of the Archon [10 PL, 158pts]: Kabal of the Black Heart
. Medusae
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
+ HQ +
Archon [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Ancient Evil, Huskblade, Kabal of the Black Heart, Overlord, Splinter Pistol, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition, The Djin Blade
. Splintered Genius (Black Heart): Splintered Genius
Haemonculus [4 PL, 70pts]: As Detachment (Coven), The Animus Vitae
Why Artists of Flesh in an army of 1-wound models?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: Why Artists of Flesh in an army of 1-wound models?
You roll less dice on FNP verse multi damage weapons.
It's a boring spamy list which is par for the course with Cheema. He got nuked by a Nid list anyway and appeared to be getting pretty salty. I mention that last part because it highlights some of the behavior that occurs behind these lists, and what helps with their success, luckily the other guy didn't put up with his crap.
It's silly builds like this that end up getting units nerfed. Not many people are going to buy 165 wracks. Thats 33 boxes and like $1,500 on just wracks...
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Mani's Wrack spam list with about 170 Wracks is ruling. Won the latest Nottingham event and is in top 4 of the first day at LVO.
Obsession . *Custom Coven*: Artists of the Flesh (All-Consuming)
+ Stratagems +
Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City [-1CP]
+ No Force Org Slot +
Court of the Archon [10 PL, 158pts]: Kabal of the Black Heart . Medusae . Sslyth . Sslyth . Sslyth . Sslyth . Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal) . Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal) . Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal) . Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
+ HQ +
Archon [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Ancient Evil, Huskblade, Kabal of the Black Heart, Overlord, Splinter Pistol, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition, The Djin Blade . Splintered Genius (Black Heart): Splintered Genius
Haemonculus [4 PL, 70pts]: As Detachment (Coven), The Animus Vitae
Yeah this list has been talked about a lot, just no one wanted to put it together, Mani however will put any and every list together no matter the cost lol.
Wracks will get a 1 or 2 (most likely 2 at this point) points increase soon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/31 00:12:36
Wait so one competitive player ruins a thing in a way most couldn't even attempt at because it costs 1500 USD and is spammy and boring and yet that's enough reason for GW to nerf it?
That's like nerfing beasts because one guy managed to afford making almost an entire beasts list and it ended up cheesy. The difference in this case is wracks are that bad looking. Sometimes i almost forget we even have beasts in our army because i never see anybody take em. At least some people like wracks.
-------
Btw was i the only one salty about that Eldar getting so much new stuff and not just re-vamped units but whole brand new units. Reminds me of a chaos player i know that got so upset his army was always snubbed for space marines or some other faction. That's honestly one of the reasons i barely play dark eldar anymore. They're cool and all but most of the old armies don't get new units which is why i was making the switch to Admech since they're new enough and GW cares about em enough. I just feel sorry for custodes and to a lesser extent ynnari or some others. They have like 5 units before GW couldn't be bothered to give them new stuff because they stopped caring about em. God imagine having to play forgeworld just so you have access to more than 5 units.
Sure maybe dark eldar have a lot as is but at least one or two new units every 5 years. That isn't asking a lot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/31 02:10:07
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Mani's Wrack spam list with about 170 Wracks is ruling. Won the latest Nottingham event and is in top 4 of the first day at LVO.
Obsession
. *Custom Coven*: Artists of the Flesh (All-Consuming)
+ Stratagems +
Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City [-1CP]
+ No Force Org Slot +
Court of the Archon [10 PL, 158pts]: Kabal of the Black Heart
. Medusae
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
+ HQ +
Archon [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Ancient Evil, Huskblade, Kabal of the Black Heart, Overlord, Splinter Pistol, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition, The Djin Blade
. Splintered Genius (Black Heart): Splintered Genius
Haemonculus [4 PL, 70pts]: As Detachment (Coven), The Animus Vitae
Yeah this list has been talked about a lot, just no one wanted to put it together, Mani however will put any and every list together no matter the cost lol.
Wracks will get a 1 or 2 (most likely 2 at this point) points increase soon.
Yea and meanwhile veteran skitarii and rustalkers crush the LVO, both of which are still criminally under cost.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Mani's Wrack spam list with about 170 Wracks is ruling. Won the latest Nottingham event and is in top 4 of the first day at LVO.
Obsession
. *Custom Coven*: Artists of the Flesh (All-Consuming)
+ Stratagems +
Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City [-1CP]
+ No Force Org Slot +
Court of the Archon [10 PL, 158pts]: Kabal of the Black Heart
. Medusae
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
+ HQ +
Archon [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Ancient Evil, Huskblade, Kabal of the Black Heart, Overlord, Splinter Pistol, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition, The Djin Blade
. Splintered Genius (Black Heart): Splintered Genius
Haemonculus [4 PL, 70pts]: As Detachment (Coven), The Animus Vitae
Yeah this list has been talked about a lot, just no one wanted to put it together, Mani however will put any and every list together no matter the cost lol.
Wracks will get a 1 or 2 (most likely 2 at this point) points increase soon.
List with 33x5 Wracks is about 900 Euro.
It needs not only assembling if you go to a top event. Then painting is mandatory for getting the additional 10 pts.
Not sure if Wracks get nerfed due to large Wracks armies out there. We may see more Thin City armies in the future.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
It's silly builds like this that end up getting units nerfed. Not many people are going to buy 165 wracks. Thats 33 boxes and like $1,500 on just wracks...
Do you think he actually bought them?
The cow goes 'moo', the dog goes 'woof', the 3D printer goes 'brrrrrrr'.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Wait so one competitive player ruins a thing in a way most couldn't even attempt at because it costs 1500 USD and is spammy and boring and yet that's enough reason for GW to nerf it?
That's like nerfing beasts because one guy managed to afford making almost an entire beasts list and it ended up cheesy. The difference in this case is wracks are that bad looking. Sometimes i almost forget we even have beasts in our army because i never see anybody take em. At least some people like wracks.
Judging by the rules, I think GW also forgets that we have beasts in our army.
Btw was i the only one salty about that Eldar getting so much new stuff and not just re-vamped units but whole brand new units. .
Tbh, I don't mind Eldar getting a bunch of redone models because I think they do actually need them - their range is ancient.
If anything, I was far more irritated when Necrons were just handed a pile of new units. As a Necron player myself, I felt that most of them were unnecessary (and just fulfilled the same roles as existing models). However, it bothered me because Necrons and Dark Eldar both had 5 or so characters in 5th edition that lacked models. When 7th rolled around, Dark Eldar lost every single one of those characters. Necrons, meanwhile, kept every single one of their characters and got shiny, new models for them. Why, then, were they the ones to get a bunch of new models and not the faction that lost most of their HQ section?
Anyway, going back to Eldar, I will say that the mechanical discrepancies annoy me. Dark Eldar now lost PfP if they ally, and the faction rule that replaced it isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Meanwhile, Eldar are not only keeping Battle Focus as their faction rule, they're also getting a far better loyalty rule to go with it. Oh and now Ynnari armies must be Eldar-centric, you can no longer run a DE army as Ynnari or even just lean towards Ynnari. Because the Eldar faction with the most units and options was clearly the one most in need of more. Oh and, despite Corsairs and Harlequins apparently being usable by both Eldar and Dark Eldar, their rules are only being printed in the Eldar codex. I guess the DE book was just too full already.
/rant
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Mani's Wrack spam army didn’t get to top 8 at LVO. But his skew list may help GW to make changes to such an army, say allowing only 6 troop slots. But beating such a spam list usually requires tailoring an army to just such an opponent.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
They're not going to nerf the FoC for the unit type GW has been trying desperately to get players to focus on and actually use because Mani is an unmitigated cheese addict. They're going to nerf Wracks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/31 12:20:11
Sterling191 wrote: They're not going to nerf the FoC for the unit type GW has been trying desperately to get players to focus on and actually use because Mani is an unmitigated cheese addict. They're going to nerf Wracks.
Maybe pt adjustment.
Thick City is still a viable approach to play in the top bracket.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Mani's Wrack spam list with about 170 Wracks is ruling. Won the latest Nottingham event and is in top 4 of the first day at LVO.
Obsession
. *Custom Coven*: Artists of the Flesh (All-Consuming)
+ Stratagems +
Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City [-1CP]
+ No Force Org Slot +
Court of the Archon [10 PL, 158pts]: Kabal of the Black Heart
. Medusae
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
. Ur-Ghul: As Detachment (Kabal)
+ HQ +
Archon [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Ancient Evil, Huskblade, Kabal of the Black Heart, Overlord, Splinter Pistol, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition, The Djin Blade
. Splintered Genius (Black Heart): Splintered Genius
Haemonculus [4 PL, 70pts]: As Detachment (Coven), The Animus Vitae
Yeah this list has been talked about a lot, just no one wanted to put it together, Mani however will put any and every list together no matter the cost lol.
Wracks will get a 1 or 2 (most likely 2 at this point) points increase soon.
Yea and meanwhile veteran skitarii and rustalkers crush the LVO, both of which are still criminally under cost.
I agree, i've said (maybe not on here?) many times Wracks needs a point or 2 increase but also Kabals needs to go down a point.
I've also said HL's on Talos needs to be 10pts, WTF is a twin Metal the same points as a crappy HWB and Splinter Pods?
I'm sorry if i haven't really kept up but i was sick with shingles (very bad skin pains) for over a week and i heard we got updated points and a new chapter approved. My question is what's been changed since i've been away?
Also what have updated custodes, updated gsc and soon to be updated tau gotten and what threats do they pose to our faction now?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/31 23:32:10
270 pts vs 260 pts
6 strength 12 shots vs 6 strength 8 shots
18 wounds vs 22 wounds
I know you can give Ravagers more upgrades but with the -1 to hit, 4++, enemy cant re roll to hit Voidweavers seem much better than Ravagers. VW's also have anti infantry weapon mode rather than an either or and you could field 9 VWs if you wanted.
Given that Harlequins can be taken in Drukhari again, as well as corsairs and the webway gate, I think Drukhari might be bigger winners out of this release than Craftworlds. Covens are what Harlies/CE are missing, particularly Wracks, Nd many of our other units outperform their craftworld counterparts pound for pound. I think DE/Harlies will be stronger than CE/Harlies and either wil be stronger than pure of any. We also make better use of the gate than CE.
I'd say on the whole the CE book is weaker than we were pre nerf.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/03 09:28:45
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
