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Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

ok, so took out a 1k list against my mates GK. i pretty much just ran what i had, he did the same, but the end scores were 36-64 in his favour.

I ran:
arhiman (paid for the WLT...for all the good it did him)
infernal master (warlord, extra pact relic armour)
10 rubrics
20 tzanngor
5 scarabs
shaman.


he had:
grand master in dreadknight
KALDOR DRAGO, MEME OF THE IMPERIUM!
2x 5 stike marines
4 paladins
termie apothecary.


basically it was the grand master. it managed to pull off a T1 charge onto my scarabs and Ahriman, then 1-shotted ahriman before he could cast a single spell (they'd moved up to take a ojective, he just stacked charge bonuses and got lucky on the roll to get the dread in on his 1st turn). suffice to say, the dreads 3++ saved him while ahrimans 3++ didnt. after that he skipped out of combat with the scarabs, basically absorbed all the witchfire and regular fire i could throw at him, then charged and tied down the rubics. he was eventually killed by a Perils of the warp, but not before he'd slaughtered all the rubics. my scarabs and the WL were stuck on a midfield objective, deepstrike charged by the paladins and killed over turns 3-4, and the tzanngor managed to get up the other flank, and even push the GK off a objective for a turn, but basically i was haemorrhaging units and he...wasnt. up until i was tabled, i had a slight lead on VP but he was able to camp all 4 objectives immediately after i died and score the 20 odd point lead he took.


1st time running a 1k list, and only 2nd proper matched play game i've ever done, so overall not a bad result, but my autopsy notes:

GK just seem to be a hard counter to TS. they have the DTW to reduce our casting to insignificance, as do we, but they have the melee to still deal damage to us in a way we cant reply to.

my 20 bird tzanngor squad lived long enough to get up the table.....but couldnt really do much when they got thier. they caused a 10VP swing in my favour form denying the objective, but couldn't actually hold it long enough to matter. I'd have done better to hold them back and just let them obsec the rear objective, or just run a 10 bird squad for that and use the points elsewhere.

i left my rubrics on the home objective, and this was a mistake, i tied 250 points of shooting to a position i couldn't really shoot well form, and one where they got charged and whittled down by a threat they just couldn't deal with. I'll need to get more and can run some MSU squads,

Arhiman did nothing of note in his short time on the field. I;d loaded him with witchfire spells to burniate, but he wasnt in range to cast on his turn and the dreadknight was able to make the charge form 18" thanks for move/advance/charge shenanigans, and i put his JUST to far forward to avoid being tagged.

scarabs did the most work, they were easily the best preforming unit. rites of coalesce easily regened 5 wounds in the first 2 turns, letting me ignore "chip" damage to them that might have whittled them down over time.

I burned though my CP in 2 turns flat. I'm normally one of those players who end up with quite a lot of CP in the bank at the end of the game, so either i went a bit spend crazy of tsons are CP hungry to the extreme.

but the problem was that dreadknight. quite simply, i did not have a answer to it. it can shoot better than my whole army, it could punch out any unit i pitted agianst it in melee, and had enough wounds to just sponge up witchfire. clearly, before i face these GK agian i need to find some AT firepower, something that can actaully HURT it. going into the game my plan was to use Twist of fate to deny his 3++, then hit him with enough high AP firepower to burn him away...but that spell was on ahriman....who never got to cast it.


sigh.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Well, you know to position Ahriman more safely next time. Thousand Sons are definitely an army that's weaker at 1k points than 2k since you obviously have less cabal points to play with and very little room for things that aren't sorcerers.

I don't think you're going to find a solution for the Grand Master at 1k points better than stripping his invuln, it's a pretty skew unit at that army size.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




I am learning the ropes of these 9th Ed dusty boys the hard way myself, after pulling models out that I hadn’t used in years I was excited to hear/see there was some good stuff to work with. I just came out of a tourney, have played against some pretty modern Ork and Drukhari lists regularly and also some out there bugger-off-style armies with double soul burner petard everywhere or fire Raptors lately, so this is my opinion from playing some hard stuff in the last month I guess.

The thing I’m noticing is the classic, do well at holding out for a turn or two and not having enough bodies to last past turn 3 against the best stuff every codex has to offer. Most of the little tricks and gimmicks in the Relic section are just that and I think you’ll see a lean into squeezing out more CP’s and the free teleport than anything else. Same as magic, the buffs are good and basically you rely on them being in place, so those very odd turns the one piece of your card castle doesn’t fall into place it can leave a huge opening for a wily opponent to step into. Our stratagems are great and do so many things, but CP’s go to flat 3 smite, perils of the warp protection and wrath of the wronged mostly, sometimes the -1D.

My list has devolved into trying to bring as many fast HQ’s as I can. Currently getting ready to use Ahriman, 2 x Exalteds all on discs and a winged prince. I have 15 Scarabs and they have been effective no matter what but I’m starting to think maybe I only need 10. I’ve been testing backfield Soulreaper Rubrics and warpflamer squads vs each other a lot and I think the backfield squads need to go. Warpflamer squads just project so much influence being on the table, and having 4x5 allows you to set two into the webway against Drukhari, which is pivotal I think. I have also slowly written Spawn and Tzaangors out in favour of Rhinos. They get a lot done, mostly blocking off lanes and chaffing.

You really need to out-chaff the chaff with TSons or you’ll never get to pick your targets with MW that need dying. Secondaries like engage on all fronts I think are bad because they force our low number unit army apart. I’ve been liking raise banners and strangle hold mostly, I’ll use the Umbralefic Crystal to jump on the 3rd objective and support it with the rhinos and all my fast characters.

Lately I’ve been thinking how to get cheaper units to camp, that have the speed to stay behind all of the obscuring terrain that’s so easy to find on tables in my area. The build I’m working on still has 200~ pts to spend and I’d love input from anybody who has been having similar results. I really think it’s these last few points and my secondary objectives getting straightened out that will turn my game around; something a bit more consistent to work with at least:

Patrol of Duplicity:

Ahriman on Disc
Exalted on Disc

3 x 5 Rubrics w/ 4 x Warpflamers

Patrol of Time:

Exalted on Disc
Daemon Prince

1 x 5 Rubrics w/ Soul reaper, Icon of Flame

2 x 5 Scarabs w/ Soul Reapers and Missiles

2 x Rhinos w/ combi-melta and havoc launcher

This list still has 193 points to use, literally 1 pt short of 2 x 10 Tzaangor and a set of 3 enlightened. So far, I haven’t found the guns on the Rhinos to be useful much, and for 30 points it might be worth shaving them. With those or any other points savings I could also grab another squad of terminators; I just really do think I need to be in more areas around the table, and basically just spending the whole game stopping the enemy from getting near my wizards while they pummel them with MW’s. Should I switch out the DP for an Infernal Master and boyfriend sorcerer? Maybe Cult of Magic instead of Time to really try and blow faces off? I’m chopping up a bunch of stuff to convert a few spawn too. I’ve loved the 3 x ectoplasma Cerberus pattern Forgefiend with the new rules but it doesn’t get to shoot very often, kind of the same as the terminators, it would be nice to be able to affect more interactions in a round than trading a 155 pt vehicle for 60 pts of hellions, but the threat of it is immense, maybe that and the 3 enlightened to round things out? Lots of options to still play through it feels like, even if it is only kicking around ideas with the last 5% of my choices that aren’t spoken for haha.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/19 21:22:17


 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Runt Nosher wrote:
I am learning the ropes of these 9th Ed dusty boys the hard way myself, after pulling models out that I hadn’t used in years I was excited to hear/see there was some good stuff to work with. I just came out of a tourney, have played against some pretty modern Ork and Drukhari lists regularly and also some out there bugger-off-style armies with double soul burner petard everywhere or fire Raptors lately, so this is my opinion from playing some hard stuff in the last month I guess.

The thing I’m noticing is the classic, do well at holding out for a turn or two and not having enough bodies to last past turn 3 against the best stuff every codex has to offer. Most of the little tricks and gimmicks in the Relic section are just that and I think you’ll see a lean into squeezing out more CP’s and the free teleport than anything else. Same as magic, the buffs are good and basically you rely on them being in place, so those very odd turns the one piece of your card castle doesn’t fall into place it can leave a huge opening for a wily opponent to step into. Our stratagems are great and do so many things, but CP’s go to flat 3 smite, perils of the warp protection and wrath of the wronged mostly, sometimes the -1D.

My list has devolved into trying to bring as many fast HQ’s as I can. Currently getting ready to use Ahriman, 2 x Exalteds all on discs and a winged prince. I have 15 Scarabs and they have been effective no matter what but I’m starting to think maybe I only need 10. I’ve been testing backfield Soulreaper Rubrics and warpflamer squads vs each other a lot and I think the backfield squads need to go. Warpflamer squads just project so much influence being on the table, and having 4x5 allows you to set two into the webway against Drukhari, which is pivotal I think. I have also slowly written Spawn and Tzaangors out in favour of Rhinos. They get a lot done, mostly blocking off lanes and chaffing.

You really need to out-chaff the chaff with TSons or you’ll never get to pick your targets with MW that need dying. Secondaries like engage on all fronts I think are bad because they force our low number unit army apart. I’ve been liking raise banners and strangle hold mostly, I’ll use the Umbralefic Crystal to jump on the 3rd objective and support it with the rhinos and all my fast characters.

Lately I’ve been thinking how to get cheaper units to camp, that have the speed to stay behind all of the obscuring terrain that’s so easy to find on tables in my area. The build I’m working on still has 200~ pts to spend and I’d love input from anybody who has been having similar results. I really think it’s these last few points and my secondary objectives getting straightened out that will turn my game around; something a bit more consistent to work with at least:
Lots of options to still play through it feels like, even if it is only kicking around ideas with the last 5% of my choices that aren’t spoken for haha.


I am using Chaos Spawn to help to bulk up my Tsons army. They have a lot of wounds and are a chore to chew through if you cast Weaver of Fates on them. I bring 10 in my army (2 units of 5 each). That's 40 T5 wounds for just 230 points. If you are running them from cover to cove, you probably don't even need weaver of fates on them until the one crucial round they get into combat. They move 7 inches, to they are pretty fast (and you would always advance them anyway because they got no shooting).
   
Made in pt
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




xerxeskingofking wrote:
but the problem was that dreadknight. quite simply, i did not have a answer to it.

You need your Tzaangors to body block or screen out deepstrike and gate. They should be the first models you pick up, not a HQ. Losing Ahriman certainly doesn’t help but GK have a universal shrug at 5+ against mortals. So maybe it’s better to focus on support powers and debuffs, leverage the shooting phase.

But aside from that, are these lists even balanced? I don’t think the PL add up. That difference is magnified over points. I think you are playing almost 150pts down.

If you are going to rematch with those same models, and aren’t balancing the armies otherwise, take pure flamers on your Rubrics so you can fire Overwatch and Forewarning.
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





xerxeskingofking wrote:

basically it was the grand master. it managed to pull off a T1 charge onto my scarabs and Ahriman, then 1-shotted ahriman before he could cast a single spell...


This should never have happened. You had plenty of screening units. If you let your two most important units get charged turn one you're going to have a bad time regardless of who you play against.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

clearly, before i face these GK agian i need to find some AT firepower, something that can actaully HURT it. going into the game my plan was to use Twist of fate to deny his 3++, then hit him with enough high AP firepower to burn him away...but that spell was on ahriman....who never got to cast it.


This is a massive misconception. You don't need AT to kill a dreadknight banking on a Twist of Fate against an army that has lots of psychic defence is a recipe for disaster. You can make it undeniable, but then you are going to be falling behind on psychic objectives, not to mention it needs an 8 to cast so it only has a 58% chance of going off. Its short range is also problematic as it will mean you are always in deny range and are going to be punished if you don't kill the dreadknight.

Your list had only 8 cabal points which is going to be tough. Ideally you want 12 at 1k as it gives you enough to use Psychic Maelstrom and Malevolent Charge. Your list did have 7 casts which is ok. So with your current set up:

Smite
Doombolt
Doombolt (Psychic Maelstrom 8 CA)
Smite (1CP Malefic Scroll)
Smite
Smite
Smite

9 + 4d3. That's 17MW before super smites. 11.3MW after a 5++ against mortals. In practice you might fail to cast one of those smites and some might get denied. But if your opponent is throwing his Dreadknight forward you will still do a lot of damage.

You're not casting any buffs this turn. But that's the army, working out where to spend our three resources: Command Points, Cabal Points and Casts. Getting comfortable with these sorts of combos can make a big difference to the effectiveness of our psychic phase. It's not just cast a bunch of powers and hope you roll well (like our old codex in 8th). There's now an element of composing the right spell.

Let's assume things go badly and you only do 7 wounds, you should be able to finish it off with your shooting.

A unit of 5 scarab occults with Wrath of the Wronged will do 6-7W.

If you were running warpflamers you can have even more fun; 9 warpflamers with Wrath of the Wronged will average 7.87W against a dreadknight.

Anyway the point is we have anti tank built into our faction.

Runt Nosher wrote:
Most of the little tricks and gimmicks in the Relic section are just that and I think you’ll see a lean into squeezing out more CP’s and the free teleport than anything else.


100% CP are so valuable for us. The only relics I'm using are on a Dilettante (prism of echos and aethenaean scroll) for a reliable Temporal Surge that can be cast at 12-18". Much harder to deny and allows me to have less power slots filled with Temporal Surge.

Runt Nosher wrote:

Our stratagems are great and do so many things, but CP’s go to flat 3 smite, perils of the warp protection and wrath of the wronged mostly, sometimes the -1D.


I've mostly stoped using the Ignore Peril stratagem in favour of using Temporal Manipulation to heal the damage, saves a bunch of CP (I do however still use it when rubric peril).

Runt Nosher wrote:

Warpflamer squads just project so much influence being on the table, and having 4x5 allows you to set two into the webway against Drukhari, which is pivotal I think.


It's insane how much they control your opponent.

Runt Nosher wrote:

Secondaries like engage on all fronts I think are bad because they force our low number unit army apart. I’ve been liking raise banners and strangle hold mostly...


I'm having the exact same experience. My most taken secondaries are: Raise the Banner, Strangle Hold, Warp Ritual, Psychic Interrogation, Grind Them Down, Wrath of Magnus, Mutate Landscape and depending on the list To the Last.


 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

Yhea, I know I screwed up with ahriman, he wasn't the foremost person but he was able to make the charge on him and then concentrated his attention on him. It was 100% my mistake, and I know that I coulda/shoulda positioned him better, but oh well, it happened, I can only learn and move on.


I didn't post the full lists with all upgrades and extras, but we were both about 950 points, and it was a max stretch force for both of us throwing what we had on the table, so some of my choices were dictated by model availability rather than ideal composition. I had 10 cabal points to start as the pankenatic armour Grants one and I had a icon of flame on the rubrics as well.

I had plenty of screen bodies, but they were concentrated in one squad, which was a mistake. Next time I'll split them I two and use one to hold the rear and free the rubrics to move up, one to take the GM in DK charge. I definitely felt like I didn't have enough squads to do what I wanted to.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





xerxeskingofking wrote:
Yhea, I know I screwed up with ahriman, he wasn't the foremost person but he was able to make the charge on him and then concentrated his attention on him. It was 100% my mistake, and I know that I coulda/shoulda positioned him better, but oh well, it happened, I can only learn and move on...


It happens. In someways it's nice as you know where things went wrong, it's much worse when you lose and you have no idea what you could have done differently. This codex is also a real puzzle box and this army doesn't play itself so it can take a while before you start seeing wins.

Thanks for sharing your experience btw. It's always great to hear how other thousand sons players are doing!


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





So, I played some games over the weekend,

Crusade game against Space wolves. I got demolished, however, once it looked like he was going to win on primaries I focused on Crusade Agendas instead of trying to come back to win, so the overall score was not really relevant. My take away from this game is in line with xerxes experience with the Dreadknight, we have to be careful when dealing with fast moving close combat units. The Space wolf player also caught me with a charge from his wolf cavalry, and wolfkin. I cast smite from just about max range, but he was able to close on me fast and kill my psykers as I did not screen them right because I was trying to get greedy with the MWs. I think if we can't concentrate enough MW to kill fast moving units like wolf cavalry, jump packer, dreadknights etc., it is better to wait a turn back and let them get closer to ensure concentration of MW to kill them (plus shooting).

My other take away is Rubrics and Scarabs are very hard to kill with D1 weapons, regardless of any how powerful those weapons are otherwise. My Rubrics survived a whole bunch of attacks from his lighting claw jump back guys, with full re-rolls due to the SW strat.

I then played a 2000 point game against dark angles. My list was as follows:

Magnus, Exalted Sorcerer, DP with wings, Infernal Master, 9 x Rubrics with bolters and reaper, 5 x rubrics with bolters reaper, icon, 5 x warpflamer rubrics, 10 x Tgors, Tgor Shaman, 7 x Scarab terminators, 2 x hellbrute with LC/ML.


He played greenwing, with all primaris with a bunch of the different infantry (like the guys with heavy rifles, some plasma, etc.) a bunch of support characters, 2 x primaris dreadnoughts with plasma cannons, and a big squad of the jump guys with the pistols, and a small squad of the jump guys with plasma.

I played cult of time which was a first for me. I ended up losing 69-67. What cost me the game was I picked the secondary "octarious data" which I only was able to do once, so 0 points. Literally any other secondary I would have got 3 points at least and won. I also had mutate landscape and engage which I scored like 9-12 on each of those.

We played on a board that was preset, and was heavy ruins so it was basically a city fight. Magnus and the terminators took one flank, with the hellbrutes and the rest was on the other. I maxed primary points, but he maxed Abhor the Witch, and his dark angle hold the rear objective one.

Overall I ended up killing almost all of his units save a few characters hiding in the back. My thoughts on the game:

Magnus is fun, but not competitive. He did survive the whole game, that -1 damage really does help him compared to previously, but quite frankly, his offensive output is not worth 450. Yes on paper he can do crap tons of MWs. But, in real games there are going to be times when he wiffs bad. I did not get a super-smite the whole game with him, even re-rolling to try. One time I failed his smite completely and the other times I rolled a 1 or a 2 for damage. I also had a round of combat where he rolled 6 1's to hit. His problem is that if he wiffs, that is 450 points wiffing. Also, he still only has 3 casts (unless you use a command point which in our army there is a lot of competition for). One will almost always be Glamer on himself, so really he has two casts. So what is that, his smite plus doombolt? Then he has no shooting attack at all, so does nothing in the shooting phase, and his close combat is good-ish but if you fail even just a few hits or wounds, the damage output really falls. And my opponent really did not have anything really scary to shoot him and he still only survived with 1 wound left and I healed him twice. I would never take him in a competitive list, only for fun.

I did not care for cult of time. Personally I like the maneuverability of duplicity, plus the WL trait that lets you redeploy. Bringing back one terminator a round was good (I brought back 3 over all), but with no Magnus I would just take more squads and then the time trait is wasted if losing models from multiple squads. Also in the game I played being able to re-deploy with units would have allowed me more opportunities to deny him primary.

I am liking the big squad of Rubrics with bolters in the backfield. They are hard to shift to protect the rear objective, with the spell that increases range they have a good threat range (or cast support actions), and you can actually get a bit of mileage out of the +1 shot strat if you really need to put a few extra wounds on a target. I am also liking the 5 man flamer squad. If I had the models I would probably only go one big squad in the back, and then 2 x 5 warpflamer squads.

For Scarabs, I am not a fan of the big unit. I would rather have several 5 man, so they can attack on many different fronts, and then -1d is only 1CP which makes a huge difference. Also 5 of them are more than a match for many units in this game, and being objective secured really allows them to do the business in the backfield trying to deny your opponent primary points.

For secondaries I don't like the normal action ones. We don't have enough units on the board to make it reliable to do the actions across different parts of the battlefield as most of our units need to be shooting every turn. I do like engage however, with duplicity. I think I am going to try more of the kill stuff secondaries. I also find the suggestions of using Strangle Hold intriguing, as that fits with the strategy of tying to deny your opponent as much primary as possible.

Anyway these are just some thoughts based on my games, I hope they are helpful. I am going to get a lot of games in this weekend hopefully (wife is out of town) so hopefully I will have some more information to provide next week.






   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

So... I have a few lists and wondering what ya'll think.

Someone mentioned Rapiers and it got me thinking....

The TS Brigade:
Spoiler:

Cult of Duplicity
18 Cabal Points, 6 CP

HQ
Ahriman on disk, Firestorm, Doombolt, Temporal Surge
Infernal Master, WL, Presage, Helm of Demon's Eye, Master Misinformation, Bladed Maelstrom, Malefic Maelstrom
TS Demon Prince, Twist of Fate, Swelled by the Warp, Aetherstride, Conniving Plate, Hellforged sword

Troop
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, cannon, doombolt
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, cannon, temporal surge
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, 4x warpflamer, pyric
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, 4x warpflamer, pyric
10x Cultist
10x Cultist

Elites
Volkite Contemptor
Volkite Contemptor
Volkite Contemptor
Tzaangor Shaman, Seeker After Shadows, Perplex

Fast Attack
3x Spawns
3x Spawns
3x Spawns

Heavy
HB Rapier
HB Rapier
HB Rapier

I'm really digging this list as a board control sort of army with just enough shooting.

The shaman is there for any of the psyhic actions.

Vanguard TS Vehicle list:
Spoiler:
Cult of Duplicity
11 Cabal Points, 4 CP

HQ:
Ahriman on disk Tz Firestorm, Doombolt, Temporal Surge
Infernal Master, WL, Master Misnformator, Helm Demon Eye, Bladed Malestrom, Malefic Maelstrom, Presage

Troop:
5x Rubric, Icon, Cannon, Doombolt
5x Rubric, Icon, Cannon, Temporal Surge
6x Rubric, Icon, 5x warpflamer, Pyrix

Elites:
Volkite Comtemptor
Volkite Comtemptor
Volkite Comtemptor
Hellbrute, Fist, Plasma cannon
Hellbrute, Fist, Plasma cannon
Hellbrute, Fist, Plasma cannon

Fast Attacks
2x Spawns
2x Spawns

Heavy
Sicaran Battle Tank, 3x HB, Herakles autocannon
Sicaran Battle Tank, 3x HB, Herakles autocannon

This one feels really light, but the Sicaran seems threatening enough to attract the attention and makes the opponent to come to me, where the Hellbrutes can crush face.

The army that I'm struggling to listbuild respond, are those Grey Knights 5x Dreadknights... I know a ton of GK players playing such lists. It's so bad, I may have to resurrect my Drukhari list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 20:38:21


6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





 whembly wrote:
So... I have a few lists and wondering what ya'll think.

Someone mentioned Rapiers and it got me thinking....

The TS Brigade:
Spoiler:

Cult of Duplicity
18 Cabal Points, 6 CP

HQ
Ahriman on disk, Firestorm, Doombolt, Temporal Surge
Infernal Master, WL, Presage, Helm of Demon's Eye, Master Misinformation, Bladed Maelstrom, Malefic Maelstrom
TS Demon Prince, Twist of Fate, Swelled by the Warp, Aetherstride, Conniving Plate, Hellforged sword

Troop
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, cannon, doombolt
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, cannon, temporal surge
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, 4x warpflamer, pyric
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, 4x warpflamer, pyric
10x Cultist
10x Cultist

Elites
Volkite Contemptor
Volkite Contemptor
Volkite Contemptor
Tzaangor Shaman, Seeker After Shadows, Perplex

Fast Attack
3x Spawns
3x Spawns
3x Spawns

Heavy
HB Rapier
HB Rapier
HB Rapier

I'm really digging this list as a board control sort of army with just enough shooting.

The shaman is there for any of the psyhic actions.

Vanguard TS Vehicle list:
Spoiler:
Cult of Duplicity
11 Cabal Points, 4 CP

HQ:
Ahriman on disk Tz Firestorm, Doombolt, Temporal Surge
Infernal Master, WL, Master Misnformator, Helm Demon Eye, Bladed Malestrom, Malefic Maelstrom, Presage

Troop:
5x Rubric, Icon, Cannon, Doombolt
5x Rubric, Icon, Cannon, Temporal Surge
6x Rubric, Icon, 5x warpflamer, Pyrix

Elites:
Volkite Comtemptor
Volkite Comtemptor
Volkite Comtemptor
Hellbrute, Fist, Plasma cannon
Hellbrute, Fist, Plasma cannon
Hellbrute, Fist, Plasma cannon

Fast Attacks
2x Spawns
2x Spawns

Heavy
Sicaran Battle Tank, 3x HB, Herakles autocannon
Sicaran Battle Tank, 3x HB, Herakles autocannon

This one feels really light, but the Sicaran seems threatening enough to attract the attention and makes the opponent to come to me, where the Hellbrutes can crush face.

The army that I'm struggling to listbuild respond, are those Grey Knights 5x Dreadknights... I know a ton of GK players playing such lists. It's so bad, I may have to resurrect my Drukhari list.


If you are using Volkite Contemptors I would recommend squeezing in an Exalted Sorcerer somewhere with the Oratory relic (lets core ignore hit, wound, and damage modifiers). My Understanding is Contemptors are core, so they would benefit from the relic then you could cast Presage on one and use the -1 AP strat on him for a ton of damage. I was thinking of this, but I don't own the contemptors.

   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 xeen wrote:
 whembly wrote:
So... I have a few lists and wondering what ya'll think.

Someone mentioned Rapiers and it got me thinking....

The TS Brigade:
Spoiler:

Cult of Duplicity
18 Cabal Points, 6 CP

HQ
Ahriman on disk, Firestorm, Doombolt, Temporal Surge
Infernal Master, WL, Presage, Helm of Demon's Eye, Master Misinformation, Bladed Maelstrom, Malefic Maelstrom
TS Demon Prince, Twist of Fate, Swelled by the Warp, Aetherstride, Conniving Plate, Hellforged sword

Troop
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, cannon, doombolt
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, cannon, temporal surge
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, 4x warpflamer, pyric
5x Rubric Marines, Icon, 4x warpflamer, pyric
10x Cultist
10x Cultist

Elites
Volkite Contemptor
Volkite Contemptor
Volkite Contemptor
Tzaangor Shaman, Seeker After Shadows, Perplex

Fast Attack
3x Spawns
3x Spawns
3x Spawns

Heavy
HB Rapier
HB Rapier
HB Rapier

I'm really digging this list as a board control sort of army with just enough shooting.

The shaman is there for any of the psyhic actions.

Vanguard TS Vehicle list:
Spoiler:
Cult of Duplicity
11 Cabal Points, 4 CP

HQ:
Ahriman on disk Tz Firestorm, Doombolt, Temporal Surge
Infernal Master, WL, Master Misnformator, Helm Demon Eye, Bladed Malestrom, Malefic Maelstrom, Presage

Troop:
5x Rubric, Icon, Cannon, Doombolt
5x Rubric, Icon, Cannon, Temporal Surge
6x Rubric, Icon, 5x warpflamer, Pyrix

Elites:
Volkite Comtemptor
Volkite Comtemptor
Volkite Comtemptor
Hellbrute, Fist, Plasma cannon
Hellbrute, Fist, Plasma cannon
Hellbrute, Fist, Plasma cannon

Fast Attacks
2x Spawns
2x Spawns

Heavy
Sicaran Battle Tank, 3x HB, Herakles autocannon
Sicaran Battle Tank, 3x HB, Herakles autocannon

This one feels really light, but the Sicaran seems threatening enough to attract the attention and makes the opponent to come to me, where the Hellbrutes can crush face.

The army that I'm struggling to listbuild respond, are those Grey Knights 5x Dreadknights... I know a ton of GK players playing such lists. It's so bad, I may have to resurrect my Drukhari list.


If you are using Volkite Contemptors I would recommend squeezing in an Exalted Sorcerer somewhere with the Oratory relic (lets core ignore hit, wound, and damage modifiers). My Understanding is Contemptors are core, so they would benefit from the relic then you could cast Presage on one and use the -1 AP strat on him for a ton of damage. I was thinking of this, but I don't own the contemptors.


Good call on the Enlightened Orrery relic... I can give that to the Shaman or Infernal Master.

EDIT #2: Actually, the Orrey doesn't seem like a great fit. That relic is good for close combat TS lists as the CORE units need to be within 6" of the targeted unit.

EDIT: I got forgeworld Word Bearers that I'm going to paint 'em as Sons.... I don't like the actual TS contemptor models (those egyptian's helmets are bizarre). The Word Bearer ones looks more "sorcery" to me with the book on the shoulders and would look great in blue and gold.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/21 21:00:40


6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





I thought the relic needed to be within 6 inches of bearer of the relic?
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 xeen wrote:
I thought the relic needed to be within 6 inches of bearer of the relic?

Transcribing from my book...

At the start of each of your Command phases, you can select one enemy unit that is visible to the bearer. If you do, then until the end of the turn the bearer has the following ability: 'Fated Doom (Aura)': While a friendly THOUSAND SONS CORE unit is within 6" of the bearer, each time a model in that unit makes an attack against the enemy unit you just selected....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 21:26:58


6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





 whembly wrote:
 xeen wrote:
I thought the relic needed to be within 6 inches of bearer of the relic?

Transcribing from my book...

At the start of each of your Command phases, you can select one enemy unit that is visible to the bearer. If you do, then until the end of the turn the bearer has the following ability: 'Fated Doom (Aura)': While a friendly THOUSAND SONS CORE unit is within 6" of the bearer, each time a model in that unit makes an attack against the enemy unit you just selected....


Yea, you can use with shooting. You select one enemy, then the aura kicks in. If the unit is "within 6" of the bearer". So you can put the Contemptors together, with the Exalted in the middle, and the exalted picks an enemy unit, and as long as all the contemptors are within 6" of the exalted they will ignore modifiers against the selected unit. They will also be able to re-roll 1's.
   
Made in se
Happy Imperial Citizen




Sweden

Hey guys, my first post here after years of lurking!

I'm liking the idea of a Sicarian Battle Tank backed up by an Infernal Master with Presage and Malefic Maelstrom and the possibility for extra AP via Strat. When I compare it to a Leviathan with double Storm Cannons though, I'm having a hard time deciding which i like more. Defensively they are exactly the same, with the exception of the Leviathan having -1dmg, making it way more survivable (both have access to Smoke Screen for -1 to hit as well). The Sicarian is significantly faster on the top bracket, but as it takes damage the difference (to a similiarly damaged Leviathan) is minimal. The Leviathan is smaller and can manouver in tighter spaces, and also wins out in melee capability, should it get charged. Shooting wise you basically get:

Sicarian:
9 S5 -1 D2 shots (S6 -2 D2)
6 S7 -2 D3 shots (S8 -3 D3)

Leviathan:
16 S7 -1 D2 shots (S8 -2 D2)
8 S5 -0 D2 shots (S6 -1 D2) /w MW on 6 to wound

So just the Storm Cannons on the Leviathan already puts out more shots in total than the Sicarian HBs + Cannon, all of them at the same S as the Cannons 6 good shots. And then you add the Volkites. Do you feel like the extra -1AP and +1D from the Sicarians 6 good shots outweighs the superior number of high S shots, or are the extra 30pts worth it to use a Leviathan instead?

Personaly I don't own any of the models (no FW at all) but I have long been itching for a FW dread (or a few..). I also like the look of the Sicarian though, and could definately see myself getting one. Gamewise I'm mostly facing Tyranids (in TTS, havent had a physical game for the duration of the pandemic), and specifically against them I would definately prefer the Leviathan for the number of high S shots to sneak through their numerous invulns. I'm more interested in what you would prefer as more of a TAC choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 08:01:06


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





3 Contemptors and Orrey are an eggs in one basket strategy that I don't think is all that good.


Some TS guy in Australia went 5-0 with Time, 4x10 Rubrics, 10 Scarabs, 2 Rhinos, and casters.

He beat RG, DE, Sisters, DE, and GK. 467 points in total.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 15:05:40


   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 xeen wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 xeen wrote:
I thought the relic needed to be within 6 inches of bearer of the relic?

Transcribing from my book...

At the start of each of your Command phases, you can select one enemy unit that is visible to the bearer. If you do, then until the end of the turn the bearer has the following ability: 'Fated Doom (Aura)': While a friendly THOUSAND SONS CORE unit is within 6" of the bearer, each time a model in that unit makes an attack against the enemy unit you just selected....


Yea, you can use with shooting. You select one enemy, then the aura kicks in. If the unit is "within 6" of the bearer". So you can put the Contemptors together, with the Exalted in the middle, and the exalted picks an enemy unit, and as long as all the contemptors are within 6" of the exalted they will ignore modifiers against the selected unit. They will also be able to re-roll 1's.

Hmmm I don't know where I got the idea that I also needed a TS unit within the enemy too for it to kick in.

That's a lot better!

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





 Daedalus81 wrote:
3 Contemptors and Orrey are an eggs in one basket strategy that I don't think is all that good.


Some TS guy in Australia went 5-0 with Time, 4x10 Rubrics, 10 Scarabs, 2 Rhinos, and casters.

He beat RG, DE, Sisters, DE, and GK. 467 points in total.



I would love to see the actual list. Any idea where it can be found?
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

 xeen wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
3 Contemptors and Orrey are an eggs in one basket strategy that I don't think is all that good.


Some TS guy in Australia went 5-0 with Time, 4x10 Rubrics, 10 Scarabs, 2 Rhinos, and casters.

He beat RG, DE, Sisters, DE, and GK. 467 points in total.



I would love to see the actual list. Any idea where it can be found?


goonhammer article. i'll copy the list to here for convenince, but the link to the article is here

Spoiler:
+ HQ1+
Ahriman [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 180pts]:
– Powers: tzeentchs firestorm, doombolt, gaze of hate
– Disc of Tzeentch

+HQ2+
Exalted Sorcerer [7 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 115pts]:
– Powers: Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates
– WARLORD: Trait= Immaterial Echo.
– Legion command: Paradigm of Change
– Relic: Umbralefic Crystal

+TROOP1+
10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts] – Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.
– power: temporal surge
– 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
– Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+TROOP2+
10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts] – Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.
– power: temporal surge
– 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
– Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+TROOP3+
10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts] – Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.
– power: temporal surge
– 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
– Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+TROOP4+
10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts] – Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.
– power: temporal surge
– 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
– Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+TROOP5+
10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts] – Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.
– power: temporal surge
– 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
– Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+ELITE1+
10 Scarab Occult Terminators [21 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 445pts]:
– aspiring sorcerer: inferno combi bolter, force staff. Power = temporal surge
– legion command: rites of coalescence
– 2x terminators with soulreaper cannons and kopesh and hellfyre missiles
– 2x terminator w inferno combi bolters and kopesh
– 5x terminator w inferno combi bolters and kopesh

+TRANSPORT1+
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

+TRANSPORT2+
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts] 2000 total PTS



the goonhammer guys take on the list:
Spoiler:
Moving onto our second event brings us to the greatest triumph for the Thousand Sons from the weekend, and with easily the most unusual of their lists. Many of the successful builds are trying lots of different techy combinations of units but not this one. As befits an inexorable legion of identical, soulless automata, this army just throws five identical full-sized Rubricae units onto the table, all with the Temporal Surge power (the new Tsons name for Warptime) and a single soulreaper cannon. A couple of units can ride forward in Rhinos for some early protection against enemy mortals or guns, there’s a full-sized Scarab Occult unit to act as a central anchor (leaning on Unwavering Phalanx to soak shooting) and a couple of characters hiding behind them throwing out pain (from Ahriman) and buffs (from the Sorceror) and that’s it!

So how does it function? Well, with a combination of grinding damage and durability and mobile ObSec everywhere. Thanks to being Cult of Time, this army has access to two different ways to stick models back into its units (Warped Regeneration and Time Flux), both of which are particularly great when deployed on Scarab Occult Terminators in particular. Recognising that, the Terminator squad is set up with the Rites of Coalescence upgrade to ensure that in the window where Regeneration can be used, they’re never going to have a wounded model and thus always get a whole one back. Taking down this squad in one go is extremely difficult, especially with Glamour and Weaver applied, and if you fail the squad will almost always bring back two full models, as they can rack the smite Warp Charge up to 9 then use a Cabalistic Ritual to auto-cast at the threshold needed for the Stratagem, while a friendly caster applies Flux. If the opponent (probably sensibly) decides to shoot somewhere else? There are going to be casualties somewhere, so this army is going to pick up huge value from these abilities regardless, which on top of just being straight up good defensively makes it a pain to shift.

It’s not idle on the offence while that’s happening either – Mortal Wounds and D1 shots with AP will kill anything eventually, and this army has lots of both. All these durable, grindy units are also ObSec (including the Scarabs) and have some mobility tools as a final trick to help them dominate the game – Risen Rubricae to start a unit in some sort of safe spot mid-table out the gate, Temporal Surge everywhere for extra movement, and the Umbralific Crystal when more drastic measures are needed, or there’s a flank that’s just going to crumble in the face of the Scarabs.

All told, this list is far, far nastier than you might think if you haven’t yet re-adjusted your evaluation of Rubricae, and has a bunch of tricks up its sleeve to really get the most out of them. It’s also notable that Liam took it to first place by beating Grey Knights in the final, as currently 40Kstats has Grey Knights as heavily favoured in that matchup. With the Knights of Titan making the slightly bigger metagame splash, a Thousand Sons build that can push back against them is going to be extra valuable, so congratulations to Liam for his success with probably the most unique build out of any we’re looking at this week.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Definitely gonna try that list, seems super fun!

"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." - Lawrence Walsh, Chinatown

"Yeah, f*ck you too!" - R.J. MacReady, The Thing 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Wow that is a cool list, and I am glad it won. Temporal Surge on everyone with time seems like a good idea as it provides the mobility of Duplicity with the resilience of Time. It is also interesting to see only two HQ units. He is still generating a lot of Cabal points from the Rubrics. I would love to try this, but don't have the Rubrics for it.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





xerxeskingofking wrote:
 xeen wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
3 Contemptors and Orrey are an eggs in one basket strategy that I don't think is all that good.


Some TS guy in Australia went 5-0 with Time, 4x10 Rubrics, 10 Scarabs, 2 Rhinos, and casters.

He beat RG, DE, Sisters, DE, and GK. 467 points in total.



I would love to see the actual list. Any idea where it can be found?


goonhammer article. i'll copy the list to here for convenince, but the link to the article is here

Spoiler:
+ HQ1+
Ahriman [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 180pts]:
– Powers: tzeentchs firestorm, doombolt, gaze of hate
– Disc of Tzeentch

+HQ2+
Exalted Sorcerer [7 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 115pts]:
– Powers: Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates
– WARLORD: Trait= Immaterial Echo.
– Legion command: Paradigm of Change
– Relic: Umbralefic Crystal

+TROOP1+
10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts] – Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.
– power: temporal surge
– 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
– Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+TROOP2+
10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts] – Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.
– power: temporal surge
– 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
– Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+TROOP3+
10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts] – Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.
– power: temporal surge
– 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
– Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+TROOP4+
10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts] – Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.
– power: temporal surge
– 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
– Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+TROOP5+
10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts] – Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.
– power: temporal surge
– 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
– Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+ELITE1+
10 Scarab Occult Terminators [21 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 445pts]:
– aspiring sorcerer: inferno combi bolter, force staff. Power = temporal surge
– legion command: rites of coalescence
– 2x terminators with soulreaper cannons and kopesh and hellfyre missiles
– 2x terminator w inferno combi bolters and kopesh
– 5x terminator w inferno combi bolters and kopesh

+TRANSPORT1+
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

+TRANSPORT2+
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts] 2000 total PTS



the goonhammer guys take on the list:
Spoiler:
Moving onto our second event brings us to the greatest triumph for the Thousand Sons from the weekend, and with easily the most unusual of their lists. Many of the successful builds are trying lots of different techy combinations of units but not this one. As befits an inexorable legion of identical, soulless automata, this army just throws five identical full-sized Rubricae units onto the table, all with the Temporal Surge power (the new Tsons name for Warptime) and a single soulreaper cannon. A couple of units can ride forward in Rhinos for some early protection against enemy mortals or guns, there’s a full-sized Scarab Occult unit to act as a central anchor (leaning on Unwavering Phalanx to soak shooting) and a couple of characters hiding behind them throwing out pain (from Ahriman) and buffs (from the Sorceror) and that’s it!

All told, this list is far, far nastier than you might think if you haven’t yet re-adjusted your evaluation of Rubricae, and has a bunch of tricks up its sleeve to really get the most out of them. It’s also notable that Liam took it to first place by beating Grey Knights in the final, as currently 40Kstats has Grey Knights as heavily favoured in that matchup. With the Knights of Titan making the slightly bigger metagame splash, a Thousand Sons build that can push back against them is going to be extra valuable, so congratulations to Liam for his success with probably the most unique build out of any we’re looking at this week.


I think what's also amazing is that he beat Drukhari, sisters of battle on his way to the final match, and in his final match, he faced and beat pretty comprehensively a mean Grey Knights army! (And statistically, Tsons seem to have a really bad win rate against Grey Knights). I guess this can't be said enough, bring enough Rubric Marines, and don't overtake too many characters. I mean, his list had literally only 2 characters!

Great podcast! I listened to it on spotify! I have to say, this also reinforces my view that Rhinos are great for a Tsons list despite the fact that we can only transport rubric marines in them and nothing else. In the podcast, Liam was saying how the Rhino enabled his rubric marines to have an effective move of at least 15 inches, if not more. That is actually massive when you consider that rubrics are obsec and immune to morale and not easy to kill too. So, he could disembark 10 rubric marines from a Rhino 3 inches, move 6 inches, temporal surge another 6 inches for a total of 15 inches and still get to cast his psychic, shoot and charge. And 10 rubric marines are 20 wounds ! lol. You would never expect that our "slow" infantry can move that fast, but they can and this is what distinguishes us from Death Guard.

I had a recent game where I disembarked my rubrics from a Rhino, followed by a move + advance and that was enough to get me onto an objective already.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 00:29:57


 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





Hey ! So, last time I tried the Guided by Whispers + Warpweave Mantle combo and it pretty much made my Exalted on disc Warlord uncatchable in melee. Sadly it felt like my warlord still wasn't worth it on the VP side. So I thought: why not try to max out a psychic secondary using Dilettante and Chronos Tutorum to give him Seeker of Shadows ?

So my question would be: Should I go for Interrogation, Psychic ritual or Mutate landscape ? Which one would be the easiest to max out ?

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





delete - got covered

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/24 01:03:13


   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Hey ! So, last time I tried the Guided by Whispers + Warpweave Mantle combo and it pretty much made my Exalted on disc Warlord uncatchable in melee. Sadly it felt like my warlord still wasn't worth it on the VP side. So I thought: why not try to max out a psychic secondary using Dilettante and Chronos Tutorum to give him Seeker of Shadows ?

So my question would be: Should I go for Interrogation, Psychic ritual or Mutate landscape ? Which one would be the easiest to max out ?


Honestly, I feel that most of our characters are too valuable to risk being charged in melee or being shot at. And melee wise, only the DP is worth it in melee, unless you are facing a big unit of 1W infantry, in which case our infernal bolters would have done the job from afar. DP can be sent on suicide fly in to kill a key character, or to counter charge and hold up an enemy advance that risk breaking through. So, best strategy rather than to equip a Exalted on disk for escape is to just keep that character behind a safe big bloc of Occults Termies and then not have to worry about being charged at all.

I would always try and take either Psychic Ritual or Mutate Landscape depending on the map. On a 4 objective or 5 objective map, Psychic ritual is probably better. On a 6 objective map, definitely Mutate Landscape. You can only either take one or the other, so you can't take both. Because both are warpwcraft.

Don't take mental interrogate. I thought that would have been good against a grey knights or Tsons matchup. But mental interrogate has to be done by your characters only, and you can only do it on enemy characters. Psyker units like our rubrics, Occults and all the other grey knight units don't count. So its a trap, don't take it. A good player just needs to hide all his characters behind obscuring and you will never get to use it. Probably only worth considering against an army like Slanaash daemons horde with lots of big greater Slaanash daemons. Even then, I don't know. If all his characters charge into combat and none survive until turn 4 or 5, then there is nothing left to interrogate either. All in all, I would never take it against a good player.

I was just going to mention this also. Even Wrath of Magnus can be mitigated by a good player. Its not that gauranteed 15 VP people assume it will be. You have to look at your opponent's list too. What if he is taking a vehicle heavy list? So only the vehicles are in front and everything is either in a transport or hiding at the back behind obscuring. Even with cult of duplicity, if he screens well enough, you may not be able to teleport to the rear to witchfire some models while in front, its all vehicles like transports or dreadnaughts that might also be hiding behind obscuring too. So you spend a ton of witchfire killing just one vehicle. Also, turn 1 if you go first, everything is hiding behind obscuring, it might be impossible to get within range to witchfire something for that secondary. I played against a really good player who kept his dreadnaughts and redemptors in front (that were using obscuring terrain well too and he screened well at the back too. Even with cult of duplicity teleportation, it was a huge struggle to kill even two models each turn. I ended up suiciding my DP just so that I could charge it in and assassinate his librarian so that instead of 2 models, I just needed to kill 1 model each turn to get an assured 3 VP. Anyway, that game made me realise even wrath of magnus can be a trap. Its not that sure 15 points people seem to think it is. You have to look at your opponent's list and imagine what how he will play it.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





The only use case for Interrogation imo is against armies with multiple big monster characters that need to move forward to do their job and that you don't expect to kill quickly. Even then I'm doubtful it'd score better than PR/ML.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Arachnofiend wrote:
The only use case for Interrogation imo is against armies with multiple big monster characters that need to move forward to do their job and that you don't expect to kill quickly. Even then I'm doubtful it'd score better than PR/ML.


There are quite a few maps with 6 objectives. So mutate landscape is often the best choice. Its so good. Its much better than DG's spread the sickness. For one thing, you don't take mortal wounds when you do it. Second thing, you can always force it through with cabal points even against a deny heavy army.

Most key, you can initiate mutate landscape even though there are enemy units on that objective. So, lets say there is a point, your opponent has a unit of obsec on it. You can still move a rubric marine squad onto the objective, cast mutate landscape and you will still get the point. Then blow the enemy obsec unit off that point and now you control it for primary VP too. Or let's say turn 5. You have mutated the easy 4 objectives in your own deploeyment and no mand's land. You can fly in a exalted sorceror on disk, a flying DP, or cheapest, fly in an enlightened shaman on to his point in his deployment zone, then cast mutate landscape, and its 15 VP in the bag. You don't care at that point if he kills your character.
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





Thanks for the answers !

To be honest I really don't think the list is competitive in the slightest (competitive in the sense that the objective n°1 is to win) but I really like the Whisper Mantle combo. And I assure you that an Exalted on disc flanked by a bunch of Enlightened Tzaangors with bows and spears can be a right pain in the opponent's side, or at least demand a bit of resources to be dealt with. All the while attracting attention away from the "main force". 12" fast flying units that can wrack points with engage and snag off badly secured objectives are not to be trifled with !

Now, as for Interrogation. I hadn't even caught on that you needed LOS to do the action. It does make it far harder to pull off. I also saw that I had completely forgotten about Pierce the Veil. But to have a Psycker 6" away from the opponent's edge of the board AND from his units seems like a big ask. Especially if you must do it 4 times total. (Maybe it's doable with a Tzaangor Shaman in addition ?). But the best choice definitely look like Mutate or Ritual.

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Pierce is for sure the worst of the psychic objectives, it has way too many failure points to be remotely reliable. I agree with Elden basically that you should default to Mutate first, then if the map is bad for that objective you take Psychic Ritual.
   
 
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