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Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




I'm leaning towards the Semper side of the Possessed "debate", they haven't impressed me.

I'd also say I'm surprised that I've played so much DG/TS since the codex came out. I was expecting CSM to be more power creeped. I think maybe they are better datasheets generally but are held back by weak secondaries.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





EightFoldPath wrote:
I'd also say I'm surprised that I've played so much DG/TS since the codex came out. I was expecting CSM to be more power creeped. I think maybe they are better datasheets generally but are held back by weak secondaries.


DG/TS got a serious shot in the arm from the AoC changes. Additionally, I know at least for my TS list, the points drops were pretty significant, most of my lists added a bonus Sorc or better. I don't play DG, but they seem to be doing a lot better for similar reasons.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine





I’d really like to have a unit with each of the chaos god marks. I remarked my DP as Tzeentch and then in my game I realized I didn’t have access to the Khorne deny stratagem. I already intend to take Nurgle terminators and I think I do prefer the DP as Tzeentch, but I’m looking for something to mark slaanesh and something to mark khorne.

I was thinking the idea of a legionaries unit with a power fist, chain axe, icon, and the mark of slaanesh is not a bad idea. I was thinking potentially giving the champion warps malice because it seems like a nasty pistol. And I could use the slaanesh stratagem to auto inflict 2 mortal wounds with that gun.

Then, for a khorne unit, I was thinking a biker unit with minimal upgrades. I’m not sure if adding more than 3 to the unit is a good idea, but keeping their chainswords and maybe giving the champ the tainted chain axe, since the MoK seems to buff regular chainswords pretty well.

Rejoice in the coming oblivion!  
   
Made in cl
Fresh-Faced New User




Dol guldur

Hi everyone

I have a question, i love daemon engines so im doing a list with:
- 3x lord discordant
- 3x defilers (i know they suck but i love them)
- 3x venomcrawlers
- troops and other less awesome things

My question is, what legion fits better to a heavy-engines list?

i'm thinking Creations of Bile or maybe Red Corsairs for that sweet advance and charge

What do you think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iggy88 wrote:
I’d really like to have a unit with each of the chaos god marks. I remarked my DP as Tzeentch and then in my game I realized I didn’t have access to the Khorne deny stratagem. I already intend to take Nurgle terminators and I think I do prefer the DP as Tzeentch, but I’m looking for something to mark slaanesh and something to mark khorne.

I was thinking the idea of a legionaries unit with a power fist, chain axe, icon, and the mark of slaanesh is not a bad idea. I was thinking potentially giving the champion warps malice because it seems like a nasty pistol. And I could use the slaanesh stratagem to auto inflict 2 mortal wounds with that gun.

Then, for a khorne unit, I was thinking a biker unit with minimal upgrades. I’m not sure if adding more than 3 to the unit is a good idea, but keeping their chainswords and maybe giving the champ the tainted chain axe, since the MoK seems to buff regular chainswords pretty well.


yesterday i played with a creations of bile list with some khorne chosen. they where very good so maybe that ? also some khorne raptors

MoS terminators with the black rune of damnation + MoS Master of possession for delightful agonies/pact of flesh combo
i also run a lord discordant with gorget and twisted regeneration (and mark of Tzeentch for some extra durability)

the mark of papa nurgle could go well with some bikes

just a thought tho

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/16 15:40:54


Masque Angrboda :harlequin: 2.5k

PainBringers 4k

Children of sorrow 2k 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm a slut for Advance and Charge. It's the singular best rule to get into combat ASAP.
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




Termis with adecuate support are indestructible a 10 man blob seems like a very solid backbone for the Army.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




FAQ is finally out and wasn't even worth the effort for how bad it is. On the plus side, the Chosen Champ can get a Power Fist now.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





EviscerationPlague wrote:
FAQ is finally out and wasn't even worth the effort for how bad it is. On the plus side, the Chosen Champ can get a Power Fist now.


Chosen so OP now. The abuse is real.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Vatsetis wrote:
Termis with adecuate support are indestructible a 10 man blob seems like a very solid backbone for the Army.
Are they, though?

You can make them virtually unkillable, but do they cover enough ground and do enough damage to justify it?

I've been running a 10-Man blob of Black Rune Possessed. They're not as durable (in some situations), but they're still quite hard to kill, fast, killy, and importantly, don't really need support to shine.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





 JNAProductions wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
Termis with adecuate support are indestructible a 10 man blob seems like a very solid backbone for the Army.
Are they, though?

You can make them virtually unkillable, but do they cover enough ground and do enough damage to justify it?

I've been running a 10-Man blob of Black Rune Possessed. They're not as durable (in some situations), but they're still quite hard to kill, fast, killy, and importantly, don't really need support to shine.


I agree with this
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Math, because I like it.

Possessed are T5 (-1 to be wounded) 3+/5++ (Armor of Contempt)
Terminators are T4 (-1 to be wounded) 2+/5++ (Armor of Contempt)

Bolter at BS3+, S4, AP0 or AP-1, D1
Possessed take 27 shots per wound.
Terminators take 27 shots to take a wound

Lasguns at BS4+, S3, AP0, D1
Possessed take 27 shots per wound
Terminators take 54 shots per wound

Heavy Bolters at BS3+, S5, AP-1, D2
Possessed take 13.5 shots per wound
Terminators take 18 shots per wound

Plasma at BS3+, S8, AP-3, D2
Possessed take 4.5 shots per wound
Terminators take 4.5 shots per wound

Melta at BS3+, S8, AP-4, D1d6 (sometimes +2)
Possessed take 4.5 shots per wound
Terminators take 3.375 shots per wound

So, against a lot of weapons, they have the same durability per model. Occasionally Terminators pull ahead, occasionally Possessed do.
But Possessed are also 5 PPM cheaper, and a damn sight killier in melee, and faster. They lack the ability to clear chaff at range, but that's really their only downside compared to Terminators.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




Termis can also have 5 meltas... They clean more than chaff at range.

And even with bolter with BL and abby they do more than chaff cleaning. Do the math.

Are they the best min max solution in the codex, probably not... But termis, chosen and possesed are certainly all very scary now.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Vatsetis wrote:
Termis can also have 5 meltas... They clean more than chaff at range.

And even with bolter with BL and abby they do more than chaff cleaning. Do the math.

Are they the best min max solution in the codex, probably not... But termis, chosen and possesed are certainly all very scary now.
I'm comparing barebones.

280 points of Possessed to 330 points of Terminators.

But, maxing out on Terminators...

Champion with Chainfist and CombiBolter
Four Terminators with CombiMeltas and Accursed Weapons
Two Terminators with CombiPlasmas and Accursed Weapons
Two Terminators with Reaper Autocannons and Power Fists
One Terminator with CombiBolter and Power Fist

So that's 390 points as compared to 280. Both need a CP to get the Rune.
We can give the Terminators RR1s easily, while the Possessed (lacking Core) cannot.

But, against a Knight, assuming Terminators get RR1s to-hit...

Shooting
Possessed do nothing. They shout, angrily.

Terminators have 8 Bolt shots, for .35 damage.
8 Reaper shots, for 1.38 damage, 1.04 if they moved.
4 Melta shots, for 1.04 wounds going through. That's 3.63 damage outside of Melta range, 5.70 in Melta range.
4 Plasma shots, for .69 damage (no Overcharge) or 2.07 (with Overcharge).
I'll assume they moved and are outside of Melta range, but do Overcharge. Total of 7.09 damage.

Melee
Possessed have 51 attacks.
34 hits.
34/3 wounds.
68/9 failed saves.
136/9 damage, or 15.11 damage.

Terminators have 24 Accursed Weapon attacks, 4 Chainfist attacks, and 9 Powerfist attacks.

24 Accursed attacks
16 hits
16/3 wounds
80/18 or 40/9 failed saves, for 4.44 damage

4 Chainfist attacks
2 hits
1 wound
1 failed save
3 damage

9 Powerfist attacks
9/2 hits
9/4 wounds
45/24 failed saves
90/24 or 45/12 damage, or 3.75 damage

Possessed Total
All melee, 15.11 damage for 18.53 Points Per Damage Dealt.

Terminator Total
7.09+4.44+3+3.75 equals 18.28 damage, for 21.33 Points Per Damage Dealt.

Terminators do less damage per point, and that's WITH a nearby HQ buffing them, which was not accounted for in points. They're also slower, so less likely to make it to melee.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





I have played with both big blocks of 10 with the rune. Beyond all the math hammer (which I don't believe ever paints a full picture) what I have noticed is the big difference in the movement. 9 v 5 is a big difference and I find that opponents can't just ignore possessed for that reason. Also talking about buffs the MoP buffs better with the possessed as he can cast the +1 to wound spell on their target (both benefit from pact of flesh). Also I know it is legion determinate, but I play word bearers and they have a WL buff that you can put on daemonkin in the command phase for +1S and and additional point of ap. With the +1 to wound and extra S/ap the possessed absolutely carve though basically anything.

By the way this does not mean terminators are bad, far from it.
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




Xeen, i think they are close enough that play style and your game plan as well as Legion choice will determine what you prefer.

JNA, I understand the comparison you are going for, but just talking survivability the edge for Terminators is they can get more buffs than Possessed.

Possessed can get +1 invuln and +1T.
Terminators can get light cover in the open, transhit, no hit re-rolls, +1T and then your choice from +1 invuln/ignore damage from first failed save per turn, 5+++/fight first or -1 to hit/-1 to wound in certain situations (very rare situations if they have the rune).

Also even if you don't have the light cover prayer, 9th edition's moto for PA factions is "stand in light cover as if your life depends on it, because it often does".
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




 JNAProductions wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
Termis can also have 5 meltas... They clean more than chaff at range.

And even with bolter with BL and abby they do more than chaff cleaning. Do the math.

Are they the best min max solution in the codex, probably not... But termis, chosen and possesed are certainly all very scary now.
I'm comparing barebones.

280 points of Possessed to 330 points of Terminators.

But, maxing out on Terminators...

Champion with Chainfist and CombiBolter
Four Terminators with CombiMeltas and Accursed Weapons
Two Terminators with CombiPlasmas and Accursed Weapons
Two Terminators with Reaper Autocannons and Power Fists
One Terminator with CombiBolter and Power Fist

So that's 390 points as compared to 280. Both need a CP to get the Rune.
We can give the Terminators RR1s easily, while the Possessed (lacking Core) cannot.

But, against a Knight, assuming Terminators get RR1s to-hit...

Shooting
Possessed do nothing. They shout, angrily.

Terminators have 8 Bolt shots, for .35 damage.
8 Reaper shots, for 1.38 damage, 1.04 if they moved.
4 Melta shots, for 1.04 wounds going through. That's 3.63 damage outside of Melta range, 5.70 in Melta range.
4 Plasma shots, for .69 damage (no Overcharge) or 2.07 (with Overcharge).
I'll assume they moved and are outside of Melta range, but do Overcharge. Total of 7.09 damage.

Melee
Possessed have 51 attacks.
34 hits.
34/3 wounds.
68/9 failed saves.
136/9 damage, or 15.11 damage.

Terminators have 24 Accursed Weapon attacks, 4 Chainfist attacks, and 9 Powerfist attacks.

24 Accursed attacks
16 hits
16/3 wounds
80/18 or 40/9 failed saves, for 4.44 damage

4 Chainfist attacks
2 hits
1 wound
1 failed save
3 damage

9 Powerfist attacks
9/2 hits
9/4 wounds
45/24 failed saves
90/24 or 45/12 damage, or 3.75 damage

Possessed Total
All melee, 15.11 damage for 18.53 Points Per Damage Dealt.

Terminator Total
7.09+4.44+3+3.75 equals 18.28 damage, for 21.33 Points Per Damage Dealt.

Terminators do less damage per point, and that's WITH a nearby HQ buffing them, which was not accounted for in points. They're also slower, so less likely to make it to melee.


Have you taking into account the to hit terroll of and wound reroll of Abby? Both in fire and melee phases... That was the base of my hyphotesis.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Terminators aren't exactly slower with the Deep Strike.

Another thing to consider for the Terminators over Possessed is that 15 points gets a Mark for the whole unit. That doesn't add a lot to the damage per point ratio either. However each Mark would be situational soooooo whatever. Khorne would help that first round though with helping wound slightly easier.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

I was comparing 390 points of terminators plus a Lord or similar for RR1s, capable of being taken in any legion, to 280 points of Possessed.

I don’t think making a basket and putting 700+ points in it is a good idea when that blob moves at 5”.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




Perhaps not, Im not a particularly good 40K player.
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine





If you give a terminator 2x accursed weapons, does it benefit from an additional attack?

Rejoice in the coming oblivion!  
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Iggy88 wrote:
If you give a terminator 2x accursed weapons, does it benefit from an additional attack?
Yes. 3 base, +1 for EACH Accursed, for 5 total.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Just wanna say a Master of Execution with hatred incarnate, warps malic and the slanessh stratagem MURDEROUS PERFECTION is nice in mortal wounds and damage output.
2 mortals per 6 to hit from Warps Malice and the same for his axe with one time turning a die to a 6 for 1 CP in shooting and fight phase. Reroll that melee hits and fis for the stars (6es) with


HATRED INCARNATE

Each time this WARLORD fights, if it made a charge move or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, until that fight is resolved, add 1 to the Strength and Attacks characteristics of this WARLORD.
Each time this WARLORD makes a melee attack, you can re-roll that attack’s hit roll.

+ his actual attacks that go through wound rerolled.

With the secondary Rise to Glory a good 3 or 4 character for 80 points and 2 CP initial investment.

Just Herohammer those corpse-worshippers out of existence!

What would Wally the World Eater do? 
   
Made in se
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





 JNAProductions wrote:
I don’t think making a basket and putting 700+ points in it is a good idea when that blob moves at 5”.
QFT. CSM aren´t numerous enough, Cultists aside, that this is a good strategy. Adding to this is the atrocious secondaries.

CSM really need to build on a good scoring plan. Assuming that a slow as molasses 700 point blob will rake in kill points or similar is a forlorn hope.

Start at the other end and figure out how to score and then fit the Termies into the strategy. They are great objective huggers and area denial.
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




Well just for coolness Termis are great. Nevertheless you can make them faster with warptime or a chant to assault and charge with MOS.

Any feedback with the BL bolter pistol relic, it seems very powerfull.
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine





When you give the Discolord the undivided demon weapon, which weapon do you replace with the demon weapon? The limbs for the extra attacks?

Rejoice in the coming oblivion!  
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Iggy88 wrote:
When you give the Discolord the undivided demon weapon, which weapon do you replace with the demon weapon? The limbs for the extra attacks?
You cannot make the Limbs a relic.

And the most attacks at the best wound rolls would be the main Chainglaive, so do that.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block





Quick question about "WARP STRIKE"

During deployment, you can set up this unit in blasphemous reserves instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do so, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

Core rules to reserve state:
Note that these rules do not apply to units that are using other rules that enable them to start the battle in a location other than the battlefield. Such units are not placed in Strategic Reserves and they are instead set up as described by their own rules.

So Termiantors etc. can be deployed in the first battle round...?
Or am I completel misreading this? (i think so ^^)
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine





 JNAProductions wrote:
Iggy88 wrote:
When you give the Discolord the undivided demon weapon, which weapon do you replace with the demon weapon? The limbs for the extra attacks?
You cannot make the Limbs a relic.

And the most attacks at the best wound rolls would be the main Chainglaive, so do that.


What prevents the limbs from being chosen? The demon weapon says to pick a weapon, and the lord’s data sheet says it is equipped with them all. I’m sure you’re right, I’m just unsure how.

Rejoice in the coming oblivion!  
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

The daemon weapon rule says you cant.

Note that some Relics replace one of the models existing items of wargear. Where this is the case, you must, if you are using points values, still pay the cost of the wargear that is being replaced. Also note that a Lord Discordant on Helstalker models bladed limbs weapon can never be replaced with a Relic. Write down any Relics your models have on your army roster.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
LeRufus wrote:
Quick question about "WARP STRIKE"

During deployment, you can set up this unit in blasphemous reserves instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do so, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

Core rules to reserve state:
Note that these rules do not apply to units that are using other rules that enable them to start the battle in a location other than the battlefield. Such units are not placed in Strategic Reserves and they are instead set up as described by their own rules.

So Termiantors etc. can be deployed in the first battle round...?
Or am I completel misreading this? (i think so ^^)


Mission rules restrict you from arriving in the first battle round.

In War Zone Nephilim: Grand Tournament missions, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/18 16:50:06


 
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine





Wow I don’t know how I didn’t see that. Thanks.

Rejoice in the coming oblivion!  
   
 
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