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Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

tneva82 wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
A lot of that is covered by terrain features and weather, and good command and morale rules.
As well as not allowing for pre measure and a orders phase. But I think for GW that has sailed away.


"No premeasuring" is just another name for noob trap. Rule favoured by those who want to curbstomp noobs with tricks rather than real tactics.

It makes no difference past noob level beside whether you want to waste time or not. Want to waste time? "deny" pre-measuring.


I'm not sure how you can sit there and say with a straight face that randomly random rules being randomly random on top of movement is somehow real tactics. It's not, it's just craps.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Just Tony wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
A lot of that is covered by terrain features and weather, and good command and morale rules.
As well as not allowing for pre measure and a orders phase. But I think for GW that has sailed away.


"No premeasuring" is just another name for noob trap. Rule favoured by those who want to curbstomp noobs with tricks rather than real tactics.

It makes no difference past noob level beside whether you want to waste time or not. Want to waste time? "deny" pre-measuring.


I'm not sure how you can sit there and say with a straight face that randomly random rules being randomly random on top of movement is somehow real tactics. It's not, it's just craps.


Because verisimilitude is a thing? Because in real life - and things that simulate real life - bad luck happens and the REAL judge of tactics is how one recovers from suffering it.

After all, how is a failed random charge different from a round of combat where you fluff all your attack rolls?

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vulcan wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
A lot of that is covered by terrain features and weather, and good command and morale rules.
As well as not allowing for pre measure and a orders phase. But I think for GW that has sailed away.


"No premeasuring" is just another name for noob trap. Rule favoured by those who want to curbstomp noobs with tricks rather than real tactics.

It makes no difference past noob level beside whether you want to waste time or not. Want to waste time? "deny" pre-measuring.


I'm not sure how you can sit there and say with a straight face that randomly random rules being randomly random on top of movement is somehow real tactics. It's not, it's just craps.


Because verisimilitude is a thing? Because in real life - and things that simulate real life - bad luck happens and the REAL judge of tactics is how one recovers from suffering it.

After all, how is a failed random charge different from a round of combat where you fluff all your attack rolls?


Bad luck happens, but if your rolling a pool of dice that bad luck is much rarer. So that’s a bit silly Comparison.

But also, often the random charges have to be potentially longer to give a avg that isn’t abysmal.
Which leads to other balance issues with fast factions, slaanesh is way higher avg and potential so they always charge.
They now need to be balance both for there speed and for that potential.

Fully random also takes away from thoughtful movement. We may also see smaller tables. So if charges are potentially 12 inches or more. Then Yolo tactics become more powerful, as the the ability to move and redeploy gets very restrictive without opening it up more.

I also want to see more command and control done in a starting phase, which if we get random charge it would make any potential command phase harder if you double up on mechanics that can fail.
Not to mention any potential for Ork and undead being inhibited.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vulcan wrote:

Cyel wrote:


Also any aspect of warfare could be subject to "unexpected random reasons" not just charges. Why not just have a game where you just sit and roll and consult random result tables. Such a blissful experience with no sign of this tiring thing called 'thinking'. Do you like Snakes&Ladders? I don't. I don't like it when random luck pulls me out of bad decisions, it's the opposite of satisfying for me.


Then you are not interested in playing a game about war, where luck and chance regularly affects events. One horse trips in a gopher hole and a whole charge stalls, leaving the cavalry stranded in front of archers.

Heck, look at Agincourt. The French charged up the slope in the full expectation of being able to make it up, but had mistaken just how boggy and slick it would be. Where is the room for that in a game where units ALWAYS charges the same distance every time?

If you want abstract movement, play chess.


As I said, you may apply the "but in real battles" rule to anything and it easily results in a crappy game. For example how many times in real battles units got their orders confused and went right when ordered to go left? So let's roll even more dice every time you want to move a unit and on a 1 it goes the other way than the one you wanted it to go. You get your "real battle realism" all right. And get an absolutely abysmal piece of player experience at the same time.

Rolling for charges for me falls in exactly the same category - a moment where a player should get his reward for playing well becomes an anticlimactic "whatever" as players are sent to the backseat and something random happens and nobody cares about it because how am I supposed to get excited with something that I can't affect anyway?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 RustyNumber wrote:
Cyel wrote:
I don't like it when random luck pulls me out of bad decisions, it's the opposite of satisfying for me.


I have bad news for you, you've been playing dice based wargames involving chance the whole time

Seriously though can everyone tone it down a bit. This is an aaaaage old subject and there's no need for people to dress up their subjective opinions as THE ONLY OBJECTIVE ONE POSSIBLE

It's fine to enjoy a wargame with fixed movement and also fine to enjoy one with random charges.

I think there's no way to reduce the randomness whilst keeping it (move + D6 or whatever) that will keep the fixed-value crowd happy.

And RustyNumber got it right. There are players who want to strategize and calculate until they are blue in the face and those who want to sit back, roll some dice and watch the game play itself on autopilot. There are games that cater to both groups and there's hardly any reason to get too emotional about this one particular title going one way or another.

As for your last solution - I mentioned input randomness instead of output. So instead of making a decision and then dice saying you're dumb, you first roll dice and then decide to charge if you can and do something else if you can't. Still doesn't allow your opponent to stay half an inch out of a fixed range* but doesn't randomly invalidate any decision to charge a player makes just because.

*-that some people dislike for some reason, even though it's exactly the same as staying a space out of an enemy unit's range in Heroes of Might and Magic 3 or a hex&counter wargame.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/03/14 16:23:21


 
   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

 Vulcan wrote:
Because verisimilitude is a thing? Because in real life - and things that simulate real life - bad luck happens and the REAL judge of tactics is how one recovers from suffering it.

How are random charge ranges representative of history? Care to give and example?
Real battles were mostly won before the battle, because of boring things like logistics (like Hannibal was excellent at) or maybe an innovative army (like Philip and Alexander).
Once an ancient battle got going there wasn't a lot a commander could do anymore.
Do you want a phase or rolls at the beginning of the game for how well fed and rested your troops are?
Do you want to roll for if orders get to troops? How many turns it takes fro orders to get there? Perhaps a table for misunderstood orders.

If simulation is so important to you then why aren't you sticking to historical?
I'll warn you though, historical wargames have to make their games fun and playable too and rarely have variable charge ranges. Usually charges are the unit's movement that occasionally get modified. Troops that are attacking march or charge until they get there or decide to run away instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said; I would surprised if the New Old World doesn't have random charge ranges.
If the dice decides games then GW not bothering to balance anything won't matter of much.
There is probably be loads of extra "flavour" that makes the game look "deep" but is actually just more obvious choices to keep track of.

I someone prefers tactical game play and not winning games based on random rolls of randomness, then why would they play a GW game?

Kings of War has fixed charges and plays fine.
Players stopping just out of charge range is just how the game plays, faster units get the charge and the player with slower units has to mitigate that. Charging a unit in on it's own is likely to get it isolated and destroyed though and it's really getting tow units to gang up on one that you need.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/15 12:46:13


Nightstalkers Dwarfs
GASLANDS!
Holy Roman Empire  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Aus

 DarkBlack wrote:
false equivalencies and strawmen.


If you love fixed values so much why don't you just play chess, huh HUH!? /s

Come on now fellas, a little less would be nice. Though it sure does make me feel young, like it's 2004 and I'm 15 and arguing about inconsequential video game bs online as if it's life or death
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

 RustyNumber wrote:
 DarkBlack wrote:
false equivalencies and strawmen.


If you love fixed values so much why don't you just play chess, huh HUH!? /s

Come on now fellas, a little less would be nice. Though it sure does make me feel young, like it's 2004 and I'm 15 and arguing about inconsequential video game bs online as if it's life or death



Thank Khaine you're here to show us what maturity is, then. You know, cheapening a poster's talking points while degrading him AND insulting everyone that isn't you.



Role model for all...




Now here's a thought I had: since you have about the same people bitching about losing randumb charge who blather on about how they're sticking with AOS/doing double duty with AOS, why can't you potentially be happy with having your randumb charges in that game and fixed charges in WTOW, if that's the way they go? I know why I wouldn't be happy with randumb charges in WTOW, it's because I don't have an alternative without staying with 6th Edition. The key here is that the AOS crowd STILL HAS THEIR GAME while the WFB crowd lost theirs. This project is GW giving it back to us. It's incredibly selfish of the people who still have their game to stomp and throw tantrums or spread false rumors about this one when it becomes apparent it is NOT their game. You still have your game. Go play it if this is such a problem.


And rusty? See that constant antagonism with the use of "randumb"? Same spirit as what you were pulling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/15 07:28:40


www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Aus

How did I cheapen talking points? "If you like random so much go play a different game" has as much validity as my chess line.

So you'd like to gatekeep anyone who enjoyed 8th (or is okay with random movement) from playing ToW? And arbitrarily assign them as AoS stans too.

Of course we all know GW is monitoring this thread and will tailor the game to whoever makes the coolest internet forum posts or has the sickest burns. It's vital we all continue a heated debate on the theoretical ruleset of a future tabletop game.

Why not have a pleasant and interesting discourse on the pros and cons of game mechanics instead of "I will be very angry if the game is X and all those X loving people will ruin it for me."

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/03/15 08:17:26


 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

 RustyNumber wrote:
How did I cheapen talking points? "If you like random so much go play a different game" has as much validity as my chess line.


Did you miss the part where I was telling you that I was using your own argument methods against you?

Maybe give my post a reread.

 RustyNumber wrote:
So you'd like to gatekeep anyone who enjoyed 8th (or is okay with random movement) from playing ToW? And arbitrarily assign them as AoS stans too.


Oooooooooooooooooooh, "gatekeeping." So we're up to Tumblr buzzwords now? That's when you know that the REAL discourse is happening.

My gaming doesn't eliminate people who enjoy 8th from playing their game, or one of those oh, so touted fan-made versions of 8th. I'm currently playing 6th and have stated that if WTOW is damn near a reskin of 8th I simply won't play it and will continue to play 6th. How in the seven shades of blue feth is THAT gatekeeping?!?!?!

While we're on it about preferred modes of play? 8th's mechanics and pricing drove players away in droves. It's the whole reason we're IN this mess. Do you think they'll want to go back to that? It'd be on the level of resurrecting Warmaster and repeating the same critical erros that killed it in the first place.

 RustyNumber wrote:
Of course we all know GW is monitoring this thread and will tailor the game to whoever makes the coolest internet forum posts or has the sickest burns. It's vital we all continue a heated debate on the theoretical ruleset of a future tabletop game.


This ENTIRE THREAD exists because of the WTOW naysayers and AOS spoofers derailing the news thread constantly. This entire thread is heated debate.

Do me a favor: once you're done patting yourself on the back for thinking you're the master of witticism, go back and read how many times this thread was derailed by people telling everyone the exact OPPOSITE was happening with this project than what we've gotten from every GW press release thus far.

Go on, I'll wait...

 RustyNumber wrote:
Why not have a pleasant and interesting discourse on the pros and cons of game mechanics instead of "I will be very angry if the game is X and all those X loving people will ruin it for me."


I tried. I got flippantly and narcissistically told to "go play chess" as if someone's opinions were of far greater worth than mine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/15 09:35:53


www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Aus

 Just Tony wrote:
So we're up to Tumblr buzzwords now? That's when you know that the REAL discourse is happening.

Behold the master of witticisms at work.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






And suddenly i'm reminded of not only why i quit fantasy, but why i'm also never going back to it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/15 13:48:43


 
   
Made in se
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Oslo Norway

Just play kings of war instead. Streamlined, and any warhammer faction can be played as something.

TOW is going to suck rules wise, but will likely bring some really cool minis

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Nah, I'm done with rank and flank to be honest. I think I'll just stick with skirmish games. If any of the models turn out any good I'll probably use them for other things, but I'm done with fantasy as a system.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Apple fox wrote:

Bad luck happens, but if your rolling a pool of dice that bad luck is much rarer. So that’s a bit silly Comparison.


Run Bretonnia, where you have a hard cap of 15 or even 12 on your knight units, and you don't even get to attack with all of them. Not much of a pool there, compared to the combat pool of an infantry unit. Even a bad one.

But also, often the random charges have to be potentially longer to give a avg that isn’t abysmal.
Which leads to other balance issues with fast factions, slaanesh is way higher avg and potential so they always charge.
They now need to be balance both for there speed and for that potential.

Fully random also takes away from thoughtful movement. We may also see smaller tables. So if charges are potentially 12 inches or more. Then Yolo tactics become more powerful, as the the ability to move and redeploy gets very restrictive without opening it up more.

I also want to see more command and control done in a starting phase, which if we get random charge it would make any potential command phase harder if you double up on mechanics that can fail.
Not to mention any potential for Ork and undead being inhibited.


You're not getting much sympathy out of me on this. I've played Bretonnia, which lives and dies on throwing everything you have in one big combo charge at the biggest thing you can break on the
charge... and then playing avoidance with the few survivors so you can win on points. If you misplan that big combo charge, or even just get unlucky, you're stuffed. The alternative is to play with mass blocks of men-at-arms; essentialy skaven without the fun toys.

EDIT: Rather than continue this, I'll just leave everyone with this thought.

If TOW goes to fixed charges, random charge fans will stick to 8E. If it sticks with random charges, fixed charge fans will go to other games with fixed charges (earlier editions of WFB, KOW, etc.).

Which makes our whole argument pretty silly, yes?

I think we can all agree on two things.

1) The odds against GW making a tight, comprehensive rules set that satisfies anyone are astronomical.

2) We might get some nice minis out of it, but they'll be expensive as all get-out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/15 14:13:17


CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vulcan wrote:
Apple fox wrote:

Bad luck happens, but if your rolling a pool of dice that bad luck is much rarer. So that’s a bit silly Comparison.


Run Bretonnia, where you have a hard cap of 15 or even 12 on your knight units, and you don't even get to attack with all of them. Not much of a pool there, compared to the combat pool of an infantry unit. Even a bad one.

But also, often the random charges have to be potentially longer to give a avg that isn’t abysmal.
Which leads to other balance issues with fast factions, slaanesh is way higher avg and potential so they always charge.
They now need to be balance both for there speed and for that potential.

Fully random also takes away from thoughtful movement. We may also see smaller tables. So if charges are potentially 12 inches or more. Then Yolo tactics become more powerful, as the the ability to move and redeploy gets very restrictive without opening it up more.

I also want to see more command and control done in a starting phase, which if we get random charge it would make any potential command phase harder if you double up on mechanics that can fail.
Not to mention any potential for Ork and undead being inhibited.


You're not getting much sympathy out of me on this. I've played Bretonnia, which lives and dies on throwing everything you have in one big combo charge at the biggest thing you can break on the
charge... and then playing avoidance with the few survivors so you can win on points. If you misplan that big combo charge, or even just get unlucky, you're stuffed. The alternative is to play with mass blocks of men-at-arms; essentialy skaven without the fun toys.

EDIT: Rather than continue this, I'll just leave everyone with this thought.

If TOW goes to fixed charges, random charge fans will stick to 8E. If it sticks with random charges, fixed charge fans will go to other games with fixed charges (earlier editions of WFB, KOW, etc.).

Which makes our whole argument pretty silly, yes?

I think we can all agree on two things.

1) The odds against GW making a tight, comprehensive rules set that satisfies anyone are astronomical.

2) We might get some nice minis out of it, but they'll be expensive as all get-out.


I mean, I did run bretonnia. For several editions also. This just seems so dismissive and I would actually like for them to get a good and tight ruleset. And they could, if they want too.

But is it worth going back to some of the things that pushed it to failure the first time, like even GW must know that isn’t a great strategy.
Fixed charges isn’t even a sticking point, I will look at the whole ruleset and see when it comes out but it’s a big point of potential failure for all the reasons listed.

And there is still room in a fixed charge to have random charges for status, effects and special rules where they fit.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





The prices will probs mean the minis don’t interest me beyond the odd chrimbo present, and I doubt the rules will tear me back from Warlords of Erehwon, but I really hope we get some more lovely fluff books. Things like Grudgelore, Loathsome Ratmen, Tamurkhan et al will make the whole thing worth it for me.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






New Dwarfs or no go.

The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.

My 95th Praetorian Rifles.

SW Successors

Dwarfs
 
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





 Vermis wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I have enough testicular Mass to not sit around like a chicken in the back field.




You're pushing little plastic toys around a kitchen table.





Cannot exalt this enough!
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 DarkBlack wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
Because verisimilitude is a thing? Because in real life - and things that simulate real life - bad luck happens and the REAL judge of tactics is how one recovers from suffering it.

How are random charge ranges representative of history? Care to give and example?
Real battles were mostly won before the battle, because of boring things like logistics (like Hannibal was excellent at) or maybe an innovative army (like Philip and Alexander).
Once an ancient battle got going there wasn't a lot a commander could do anymore.
Do you want a phase or rolls at the beginning of the game for how well fed and rested your troops are?
Do you want to roll for if orders get to troops? How many turns it takes fro orders to get there? Perhaps a table for misunderstood orders.

If simulation is so important to you then why aren't you sticking to historical?
I'll warn you though, historical wargames have to make their games fun and playable too and rarely have variable charge ranges. Usually charges are the unit's movement that occasionally get modified. Troops that are attacking march or charge until they get there or decide to run away instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said; I would surprised if the New Old World doesn't have random charge ranges.
If the dice decides games then GW not bothering to balance anything won't matter of much.
There is probably be loads of extra "flavour" that makes the game look "deep" but is actually just more obvious choices to keep track of.

I someone prefers tactical game play and not winning games based on random rolls of randomness, then why would they play a GW game?

Kings of War has fixed charges and plays fine.
Players stopping just out of charge range is just how the game plays, faster units get the charge and the player with slower units has to mitigate that. Charging a unit in on it's own is likely to get it isolated and destroyed though and it's really getting tow units to gang up on one that you need.


Dealbreaker for most people won´t be a games mechanic of any kind. Just the eye watering price tag, scale creep and new base size will make people look elsewhere for tabletop fun long before they even have had the rulebook in their hands. R&F is also not noob friendly with it´s plethora of models. I am really intrigued how GW will try to peddle this game to the community.
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

What'd be mind blowing would be if they had a "three ways to play section that covered the different versions of charge range, other conflicting rules issues that might make or break TOW on release for someone/everyone in a different way. Either random charge range rules in an appendix or the suggestion of fixed charge range in the appendix. Slots vs percentages. That sort of thing.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






Norn Iron

Anyone else like the idea of potential new base sizes? Show of hands. Just me?

For old armies, I still hold onto the movement tray theory.

Vulcan wrote:
I think we can all agree on two things.

1) The odds against GW making a tight, comprehensive rules set that satisfies anyone are astronomical.

2) We might get some nice minis out of it, but they'll be expensive as all get-out.


This should be, like, nailed to a cathedral door or something.

(Don't do that, they'll think it's a hate crime)

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:


Cannot exalt this enough!




If I didn't laugh at this place so much, I'd cry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/17 05:49:51


I'm sooo, sooo sorry.

Plog - Random sculpts and OW Helves 9/3/23 
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





I personally enjoyed base move + 2d6 or 1d6.

It stopped the games eventually being super stale, we play a lot of 6th locally and certain armies like Dwarves or infantry focused greenskins the players get annoyed because locals are very good at estimating ranges and they just can't really get charges off ever, barring rare occasions spells or other abilities go off.

Least the baseline move + dice allow for that set knowledge within a certain distance, but allows for longer plans and uncertainty
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I personally enjoyed base move + 2d6 or 1d6.

It stopped the games eventually being super stale, we play a lot of 6th locally and certain armies like Dwarves or infantry focused greenskins the players get annoyed because locals are very good at estimating ranges and they just can't really get charges off ever, barring rare occasions spells or other abilities go off.

Least the baseline move + dice allow for that set knowledge within a certain distance, but allows for longer plans and uncertainty


some uncertainty is needed, what is also needed is "no pre-measuring" to be taken out and shot, there are far too many gamey ways to cheat around that and its debatable if it adds anything - a randomness on the charge distance works.

however I find 2d6 flat feels wrong (cavalry charging the same distance as dwarf infantry?), HH has 2d6 with a modifier, but a modifier that hardly applies which isn't much better.

wonder on this:

your basic charge distance is M*2, to this you then roll two dice, a black one and a white one (other colours available, they key is they are different), you take your basic charge distance and subtract the black die then add the white die - the "average" result is no change but you have +/- 5" so there is some randomness but based on your actual movement.

fast moving stuff can still play games with slower moving stuff but its not quite as set in stone

that or maybe a leadership test is required to initiate a charge (so character with higher Ld help, maybe banners helping etc), and potentially some units requiring a leadership test not to charge (hated enemies, impact cavalry etc)
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Cyel wrote:
I am wondering if playstyle affects this perception. For example recently I've been surprised to watch some of the 6th edition reports from this channel

and, boy, if you played WFB like that no wonder your opponent having a few inches of charge range advantage made all the difference! To copy my comment from underneath this report:

I have watched a few of these reports already, and the saturation of player agency, interesting, meaningful and non-obvious decisions per unit of gameplay time (or per page of rules) seems abysmal. These blocks just get shuffled forward until they meet what was deployed directly across the battlefield from them and then totally random combat Yhatzee gives some result which tips balance in favour of one of the sides...

My memory tells me that the game was far more strategic than that. Or maybe it's the fact that for some reason you don't use a lot of sacrificial units, especially fast cavalry which can redirect these expensive blocks at unfavourable angles. I remember always playing with 3 min. Wolf Rider units in O&G, 3 min. units of Warhounds inChaos, 3 min. Dire Wolves in Vampires etc. Can't imagine just having nothing to throw away to delay this Black Knight Bus for a turn (or to toy with those Khorne Knights all newbies erroneously thought were awesome because stats ;D)!

I remember using your shooting, magic and support units to kill enemy support units, because with more sacrificial support than your opponent you could control their movement (by baiting or redirecting, or taking a charge and overrun into an anvil and countercharging in a flank). With so little support it really feels like blocks shuffling forward and dice deciding everything...simple, shallow gameplay not justifying dozens of pages of rules and 2 hours spent doing it.


I think this sort of hits the key issue of a lot of these points. How skillful is the game meant to be - and if it is meant to be a battle of skill, what should those skills be?

Because I feel the issue is that yes, you had a lot of people who did want to just shuffle some units across the table, charge or get charged, roll some dice, and one-side fell over. I think that's certainly how GW saw it - with the dozens of pages of rules existing to facilitate quasi-roleplay rather than meaningfully interactive gameplay.

I agree with you that there were things to be done with chaff/redirectors - and in turn shooting/magic to deal with said units. And this continued on into 8th. But ultimately, by the standards of today, the game never had that much interaction, because you got a very limited number of turns, and unit movement was typically quite controlled.
I mean "haha, you noob, you've charged your Khorne Knights into my Dire Wolves and I've counter-charged" worked... once? Twice? Unless the player was dreadful (we had a few) they would eventually realise that maybe they should stop doing that.

As said - the main issue with player controlled charges vs it being random is how important the charge is. If its the be-all and end-all, as I think it was 5th-7th, then it feels like something which shouldn't be up to dice. But equally 8th produced sort of strange interactions, where low initiative units could just get massacred before getting to swing even after charging in. This could I guess be mitigated by some "everyone fights at the same time" mechanic. But then you'd probably need to give other avenues for "good play" or it just gets reduced down to probability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/20 16:28:36


 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Thanks for reminding me of how garbage it was to have chargers going in initiative order.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Just Tony wrote:
Thanks for reminding me of how garbage it was to have chargers going in initiative order.


the initiative order thing worked, but only when there were ways to get modifiers to your initiative - e.g. spears or pikes getting a bonus v charging cavalry, cavalry with lances getting a bonus, certain weapons providing a bonus or penalty - warhammer used to have all that but it got stripped out to "simplify" things, leading to a lot of cludges like "always strikes first/last" being added to get around it.

thought to be honest just allowing everyone to fight at the same time, but then also doing what some other games do and having a second combat phase for units that charge can work well - e.g. roughly thus

- unit A charges unit B, at the end of the movement phase when all charges, reactions etc have occurred there is a "charge combat phase", this is where impact from cavalry or other initial shock effects take place - in warhammer terms this is probably just one unit striking, likely the one that charged but maybe not always.
- assuming unit B survives both are now in melee and at the fight phase of the turn both units should now fight, at the same time, with however many models are determined to be fighting.

benefit: cavalry or elite units charging have the chance to break an enemy on the charge, but its not certain unless they pick a good target - and if they don't its more mob combat - where the chaff may have weight of numbers but still have to overcome the skill of the enemy


trouble is, warhammer has a very nice background but the rules have never really been top flight, and the more you try to fix them the less "warhammer" it becomes, there are plenty of other far better sets of rules though they are either historical based and thus lack the fantastical elements or tend to have very bland and not very engaging backgrounds
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Nah, I'm good.

Honestly, I simply think the rules functioned best in 6th. Always have, even when I was staying current with editions. There were three things I didn't like about 6th, and only two of those were fixed in later editions with far worse things added on top.


Some people want the granularity of roleplay in their tabletop wargames. I don't. And I'm hoping that if they DO cater to you that I'm still able to find opponents for my preferred edition if they don't make an edition that actually DOES cater to the playstyle I want.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

At the end of the day it all depends on how your idea of fun and a good game looks in the details.

Almost everybody agrees that games that are, as the saying goes, won at army selection, or won in the deployment phase, are not the pinnacle of fun. Ideally, some level of player skill in setting up charges, timing charges, using skirmishers, ranged units, magic, monsters, terrain and of course the element of randomness all play are role in determining the winner, but there need to be meaningful decisions and interactions to be made for it to be an actual game, and not some sort of wind-up toy you set up in deployment and then watch unfold. Warhammer, in the later edition, often erred too far into the other direction of 'lulz random' on the one hand, and clutchy fixes on the other: a game where huge death stars can tank whole armies and ignore stuff like charges or psychology almost entirely and the only fix to beat them is using degenerately overpowered magic *cough* Purple sun *cough* that has disproportionate effects on them is obviously in a bad state and needs to be toned down.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




have to say with charges one I actually quite like is in the middle earth rules, basically your charge distance is whatever your normal move distance is, there are a few ways to extend it, but thats your lot.

pre-measure it, but its your normal distance

indeed actually GW could do a lot worse than basically use the LotR system, with changes to allow rank & file ranked units to function (e.g. the unit as a whole acts as one in a duel, not individual models, but the number of attacks is based on size of the front rank and then number of ranks maybe or something)

would be a better game

wouldn't be warhammer though
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

If I wanted to play LOTR I would actually play LOTR. If I wanted to play Warmaster I'd ask my brother to euthanize me. Just kidding, but I don't want to play Warmaster. I want to play WFB, and having WFB suddenly become a reskin of some system I quite frankly have no interest in even ACCIDENTALLY playing would make TOW a non-starter.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
 
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