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I am surprised is that people haven't noticed that in fight phase you can now attack any unit that is engagement range despite not having charged it.

In other words you can charge one unit and with charge movement + pile in atack another unit if it is in proximity, your no longer locked to attack charged targets or that heroically intervened.

This makes charges more dependable if charging into 2 units since you just need to charge the closest.

Charge is now = movement + fight first
pile in only requires 1 model for base contact rest move normally.

But hey i am still reading the rules.

Btw pistols on vehicles can be shot in conjunction with other weapons in vehicles, so our buggies and defkoptas can use them now.

Those are very interesting changes, I know for a while they were trying to steer clear of making multi-charges easier. Perhaps the design intent changed for 10e.

Forceride wrote:
I am surprised is that people haven't noticed that in fight phase you can now attack any unit that is engagement range despite not having charged it.

In other words you can charge one unit and with charge movement + pile in atack another unit if it is in proximity, your no longer locked to attack charged targets or that heroically intervened.

This makes charges more dependable if charging into 2 units since you just need to charge the closest.

Charge is now = movement + fight first
pile in only requires 1 model for base contact rest move normally.

But hey i am still reading the rules.

Btw pistols on vehicles can be shot in conjunction with other weapons in vehicles, so our buggies and defkoptas can use them now.

Yes but charge and pile in changes make it hard. If model can get to b2b with unit it charged has to. Otherwise has to end closer to it than started. Similarly pile in has to go toward nearest and into b2b if possible(every model).

If units aren't that close it likely is easier said than done.

Yes 1 model, not the entire unit, that means other's can ignore what it states, you need something in btb in pile in, during the charge is only if possible, so charges are normal, if you have move leave one in btb and follow the rest with what ever you want. It ain't different from now, the only change is at least 1 model in base contact. Also nothing in the rules you can't move units in fight phase if in btb so far. Haven't read all yet.

Each time a model makes a Pile-in move, it must end that
move closer to the closest enemy model. If it can also end that
move in base-to-base contact with one or more enemy models
while still satisfying all of the conditions above, it must do so.

You saying 2nd, 3rd etc models aren't models making a move?

Each time model makes a pile in move...

...if it can also end that move in b2b...it must do so.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no you can"t pile in if you are already b2b(where charge has to go if possible).

If you haven"t read all(like paragraph startlng with 1. PILE IN) maybe not make such claims?

you can move each model in that unit
that is not already in base-to-base contact with an enemy model
up to 3" - this is a Pile-in move.

Literally first phrase in paragraph dealing with pile ins...

You then make a Charge roll for the charging unit by rolling 2D6. The result is the maximum number of inches each model in that unit can be moved if a Charge move is possible. For a Charge move to be possible, the Charge roll must be sufficient to enable the charging unit to end that move

■ Within Engagement Range of every unit that you selected as a target of the charge.
■ Without moving within Engagement Range of any enemy units that were not a target of the charge.
■ In Unit Coherency.

If any of these conditions cannot be met, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase. Otherwise, the charge is successful and the models in the charging unit make a Charge move – move each model a distance in inches up to the result of the Charge roll. When doing so, each model in the charging unit must end its Charge move closer to one of the units selected as a target of its charge. If you can also move a charging model so that it ends its Charge move in base-to-base contact with one or more enemy models while still enabling the charging unit to end its move satisfying all of the conditions above, you must do so. The controlling player chooses the order in which to move their models.

When a unit Piles In, you can move each model in that unit that is not already in base-to-base contact with an enemy model up to 3" – this is a Pile-in move. For a Pile In to be possible, a unit must be able to end these moves within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units and in Unit Coherency. If these conditions cannot be met, no models in the unit can
make Pile-in moves this phase and you progress to making melee attacks with that unit. Otherwise, the unit can make Pile-in moves. Each time a model makes a Pile-in move, it must end that move closer to the closest enemy model.If it can also end that move in base-to-base contact with one or more enemy models while still satisfying all of the conditions above, it must do so. The controlling player chooses the order in which to move their models.

Charge mentions that you move in btb if possible but not required, it mentions the model when doing said move, you can manipulate this in your favor it's still movement, yuo can move that either the least amun or the largest amount end in btb, it's up to you, you rolled the dice, the charge is a move, your able to fiddle, it has ample way to work with.

While yes you can't move the ones in btb, i was mentioning the rest of the unit models, we already do this in 9th, what i am mentioning is you can manipulate your movement to end closer to another unit gaining movement, there is a requirement for btb but that's the same instance in the charge if you use melee units now in 9th units in base contact already don't move.

So it is possible to finish a charge where there are no models in btb, because that's not a condition, but as soon as you pile in, the first line will move into btb, the second line and third will move as well to get in engagement and btb range. You will gain move with these interaction sling shooting you into another unit if possible

I think we are just talking about different things...

But this is neither here or there what i mentioned, what i did mentioned is that in fight phase your eligible to attack any enemy unit that you are in engagement range, all you get out of the charge and pile ins is extra movement.

PS.: i transcribed both rules and highlighted what i am talking about.
PSS.: Mobile phone writing while walking sucks i noticed my previous post mess

If there is another unit within 3" you can still move in b2b with them instead of the target you charged, which is not super difficult to set up with larger mobs or when units gather around models with auras.

In addition, I would ask you to watch your tone tneva. If you can't have a civil discussion about rules, please don't post here at all.

Forceride wrote:
If you can also move a charging model so that it ends its Charge move in base-to-base contact with one or more enemy models while still enabling the charging unit to end its move satisfying all of the conditions above, you must do so. The controlling player chooses the order in which to move their models.

Charge mentions that you move in btb if possible but not required, it mentions the model when doing said move, you can manipulate this in your favor it's still movement, yuo can move that either the least amun or the largest amount end in btb, it's up to you, you rolled the dice, the charge is a move, your able to fiddle, it has ample way to work with.

If it's possible you MUST move. So only way you can end up charge move without going to b2b is if you physically can't. Ie opponent is 4.5" away and you roll 4". If you roll 5" at least one model is quaranteed to be able to go to b2b and then he HAS to move to b2b.

You DO know meaning of must right? Or are you just interested in cheating and skipping words like must?

Also can't end up further from target than you started. And has to end up in coherency.

Yes you can play around with order but it only goes so far and and as seen in actual game examples already in real games rather than forum talk it's lot harder than it sounds.

I presume you know theres been already real games played? No need to even forum chat when we can look at actual games and see how the tightening up of rules make the trick while theoretically possible lot harder in practice. Because GW put up enough must's and requirements to make it damned hard to actually pull it off.

tneva82 wrote:

Forceride wrote:
If you can also move a charging model so that it ends its Charge move in base-to-base contact with one or more enemy models while still enabling the charging unit to end its move satisfying all of the conditions above, you must do so. The controlling player chooses the order in which to move their models.

Charge mentions that you move in btb if possible but not required, it mentions the model when doing said move, you can manipulate this in your favor it's still movement, yuo can move that either the least amun or the largest amount end in btb, it's up to you, you rolled the dice, the charge is a move, your able to fiddle, it has ample way to work with.

If it's possible you MUST move. So only way you can end up charge move without going to b2b is if you physically can't. Ie opponent is 4.5" away and you roll 4". If you roll 5" at least one model is quaranteed to be able to go to b2b and then he HAS to move to b2b.

You DO know meaning of must right? Or are you just interested in cheating and skipping words like must?

Also can't end up further from target than you started. And has to end up in coherency.

Yes you can play around with order but it only goes so far and and as seen in actual game examples already in real games rather than forum talk it's lot harder than it sounds.

I presume you know theres been already real games played? No need to even forum chat when we can look at actual games and see how the tightening up of rules make the trick while theoretically possible lot harder in practice. Because GW put up enough must's and requirements to make it damned hard to actually pull it off.

You do you mate, you don't seem interested in discussing, rather, in attacking, so i am not even going to engage in the convo. my point stands and yes i saw exhibition matches.
I am not going to point to what Jidmah mentioned, but if you wish to discuss anything, even if you disagree with a person, being civil will gather more good will and further a discussion, i understood your point's and i think we are speaking the same thing but from different points of view, after all 9th fight phase also has nuances you need to know... So we can either politely agree we disagree and discuss from there or.. Good day to you sir.

 Jidmah wrote:


To continue picking up crumbs, the weird boys' 'eadbanger also ends up with S10 5dmg with a mob of 20 which feels a lot more like something GW would do than giving him a S12 7dmg shot.

That said, I'm not sad to see mobs of 30 go. They were unwieldy anyways and until 8th no one really ever ran them because of that. With the new blast rules and very limited second row fighting, 3x 20 would probably superior to 3x 20 anyways.

I don't know about that Jidmah, I was running blobs in 4th-7th as well But I get your point. It is going to be a bit sad to see my huge blobs disappear and even more so when I realize that I've lost yet more of my army in regards to utilizing max size. Last edition we lost biker size which cost me about 5 or so bikes (legally), the big hit was Stormboyz, I had 90 and can only legally field 60 now :( A lot of Speedfreak players lost Buggies and we also lost Burna/loota size since were forced to include spannerz now. Like I said, not a big deal, just kind of disheartening.

cody.d. wrote:
I dunno where the assumption our melee will be worse comes from.

AP1 on choppas, extra attack, str, advance and charge on waagh, sustained hits with the waaagh tribe rule, attack on death stratagem, 1+ to hit and wound buff from ghaz and an increase on the boyz save to boot. Seems like a lot of potential and there's more buffs to be seen yet.

The big hit is from engagement range and other game wide rules, however I would argue that losing sub faction rules like Goff was a big loss as well, not to mention the durability for most things going up. I think orkz will do ok but we have lost a little CC power while gaining a smidgen of Ranged firepower in return. Nothing is concrete yet so we will have to wait.

Semper, you should see it from the better side.

You can play two games simoultaneously now

SemperMortis wrote:


The big hit is from engagement range and other game wide rules, however I would argue that losing sub faction rules like Goff was a big loss as well, not to mention the durability for most things going up. I think orkz will do ok but we have lost a little CC power while gaining a smidgen of Ranged firepower in return. Nothing is concrete yet so we will have to wait.

I am actually feeling a bit distressed, there are many combos popping from the sheets shown, and what they do show is that lethality isn't down. While toughness has gone up, anti-x/devastating wounds combos are raising their heads threatening to claim their pound of flesh. I still tell myself it's too soon and point's will correct but i have my doubts.

We play mostly on T and bodies, we don't have the saves for this amount of damage, it is rather concerning.

Other situations like nids flyrant power decreasing attacks(0 attacks lol), or -1D not having the stop gap of D1 not being affected, the nid pod that can fit a 100mm monster but can't disembark it on 3', is all requesting a FaQ pretty soon.

I know this is the start of an edition but things are already not looking very good in general... man i hate to bringing the gloom.

Forceride wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


The big hit is from engagement range and other game wide rules, however I would argue that losing sub faction rules like Goff was a big loss as well, not to mention the durability for most things going up. I think orkz will do ok but we have lost a little CC power while gaining a smidgen of Ranged firepower in return. Nothing is concrete yet so we will have to wait.

I am actually feeling a bit distressed, there are many combos popping from the sheets shown, and what they do show is that lethality isn't down. While toughness has gone up, anti-x/devastating wounds combos are raising their heads threatening to claim their pound of flesh. I still tell myself it's too soon and point's will correct but i have my doubts.

We play mostly on T and bodies, we don't have the saves for this amount of damage, it is rather concerning.

Other situations like nids flyrant power decreasing attacks(0 attacks lol), or -1D not having the stop gap of D1 not being affected, the nid pod that can fit a 100mm monster but can't disembark it on 3', is all requesting a FaQ pretty soon.

I know this is the start of an edition but things are already not looking very good in general... man i hate to bringing the gloom.

I dont see any gloom at all untill ive actually seen the data sheets, points and otherwise tried out playing orks.

Everything is all chaos and gloom while theory is all one has. Lets just wait with the doom and darkness untill we have a better picture. Im generally very excited for 10th edition. Not necessarily because it makes orks better (because we dont know) but because its different.

I guess your right Beardedragon, hopefully this all just theory and does not live up to expectations.

I will try to keep it at bay, sry i am really trying to avoid it.. and i also agree that it's something new and fresh.

Like you say, for all we know orks might be top dog this edition. As hilarious as that would be i just prefer to have a balanced army.

Forceride wrote:
I guess your right Beardedragon, hopefully this all just theory and does not live up to expectations.

I will try to keep it at bay, sry i am really trying to avoid it.. and i also agree that it's something new and fresh.

Like you say, for all we know orks might be top dog this edition. As hilarious as that would be i just prefer to have a balanced army.

orks were pretty balanced in 9th edition, and thats all i ever really want for them in 10th as well.

Also you dont really have to do anything i say, im just saying, being gloomy about something we dont know much about, seems pointless. DG players seem to be raging over DG being bad due to the preview making them look bad, but the last i heard from, was it, art of war (the youtube channel)? was a DG player actually demolishing who ever he was fighting. Its only a one time thing so take it with a grain of salt, but i feel like even rules that "look bad" can be really good when the rest of the rules they have, make up for it.

Or if they are cheap enough

or strong enough.

All we have are a few previews.

And while keeping at it, our waagh has changed for better or worse, but our entire army has advance and charge. Even our slow units like deff dreads, could potentially see play now.

The waaagh giving full effect to all units for sure is a fun change. An example would be kans who can get some milage out of it. Especially with a mek passing his buff onto all of them for both phases. If the ork lineup has lots of assault weapons, now that something can be both assault and something else like rapidfire we can have big shootas behave like big shootas.

We're expecting the xenos datacards on thursday I believe, so we'll have a lot to pour over on that day. I'm betting this chatroom (or the 10th edition one that'll get made) will be a busy box of orkish brawling for a while. Seriously I do enjoy how you greenskins enjoy a good chat about our orky lads.

Eh, the DG rage is more about the army losing its identity than about it being good. Just from the DG leak we already know that there are stupid combos just like for marines and eldar and three important characters aren't even known yet.

Imagine orks suddenly becoming a T3/4+ army that is mediocre at close combat. That's kind of what many people feel like what is happening with DG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
The waaagh giving full effect to all units for sure is a fun change. An example would be kans who can get some milage out of it. Especially with a mek passing his buff onto all of them for both phases. If the ork lineup has lots of assault weapons, now that something can be both assault and something else like rapidfire we can have big shootas behave like big shootas.

We're expecting the xenos datacards on thursday I believe, so we'll have a lot to pour over on that day. I'm betting this chatroom (or the 10th edition one that'll get made) will be a busy box of orkish brawling for a while. Seriously I do enjoy how you greenskins enjoy a good chat about our orky lads.

Good thing you reminded me. I probably won't be able to create a new thread as soon as the rules hit, but I will try to do it at some point during the evening, so it's ready for discussions when we get the points on Friday.

Remember Jid, we can make the new thread as a community effort. You don't have to shoulder the entire burden.

But we do appreciate your efforts.

Don't worry. I will not do the tier list anymore as it gets invalidated faster than I can update it, but outside of that it's really not that much work.

Having seen a lot of the index datasheets so far, I think the Nob with WAAAGH! banner might actually be relevant again as a unit. If trends follow, it seems like he'll likely do some of the following:

- gives models in the unit one more OC point.
- give them +1 to hit/wound
- provide some sort of battleshock mitigation ability

Since GW is really trying to push each datasheet to do different abilties, this means that Warbosses and WAAAGH! Banner Nob shouldn't have the same +1 to hit ability anymore, so he might be worth putting in with Meganobz or a unit of boyz now that he won't get outpaced so quickly by CC units.

I could see him mitigate battleshock.

It feels like this game is infested with battleshock to the point where i have no idea how to even hold a single point as an ork player, unless there are ways to actually mitigate these things.

So one can hope there are ways to mitigate it.

 Grimskul wrote:
Having seen a lot of the index datasheets so far, I think the Nob with WAAAGH! banner might actually be relevant again as a unit. If trends follow, it seems like he'll likely do some of the following:

- gives models in the unit one more OC point.
- give them +1 to hit/wound
- provide some sort of battleshock mitigation ability

Since GW is really trying to push each datasheet to do different abilties, this means that Warbosses and WAAAGH! Banner Nob shouldn't have the same +1 to hit ability anymore, so he might be worth putting in with Meganobz or a unit of boyz now that he won't get outpaced so quickly by CC units.

I wouldn't be surprised if they just copy paste a Chaplain / Dark Apostle and change him to Ork stats to be honest. They may also have him extend the Waaagh bonus, or give superior bonus while it's active.

So deathwatch pump out 90 mw’s per turn and chaos get the same armor of contempt strat but have to pay an additional cp. I’m starting to think gw might not of even play tested this edition. 😂

I was really hoping those datasheet cards would be an easy quick reference guide but there are to many issues popping up that I don’t feel safe buying them and having relevant accurate rules on some of them after the first round of changes. I’ll probably buy them anyway unfortunately I expect a lot of changes to units

gungo wrote:
I was really hoping those datasheet cards would be an easy quick reference guide but there are to many issues popping up that I don’t feel safe buying them and having relevant accurate rules on some of them after the first round of changes. I’ll probably buy them anyway unfortunately I expect a lot of changes to units

I really wouldn't recommend buying them given several typos have started popping up, not to mention the game breaking 90MW stuff.
Might be better to just buy some stiff printer paper, such as resume paper, and print your cards; since I doubt GW will be selling these at a reasonable price.

Legit, anything that is remotely rules related for GW that isn't just some sort of token or tracker for Command Points, Victory Points or the Turn number becomes obselete incredibly quickly. I should know, I have two sets of Orruk Warclans warscroll cards with the cardboard tokens and so far the only saving grace is that the cardboard tokens can be useful for marking other things, but the cards quickly became useless for me given balance changes and warscroll updates.

I'm sure a fan will collate them into something much more manageable and less unwieldy than the pdf blobs GW uploaded to their community page.

So the new Xenos stuff comes tomorrow? This thread will be quite active then.

Had to edit my post, i thought xenos was on today :(

Beardedragon wrote:
So the new Xenos stuff comes tomorrow? This thread will be quite active then.

i hope so... i dont wanna really post in the rumors thread for 10th... the amount of salt there is kinda unbearable. people complaining they cant use their 9th lists anymore
i mean i am a salty boi too... but that level of GW bashing is unreal.

as long as i can field trukks full of boyz, wagons full of dakkastuff and the occational mek construct, while not being cleared off the board by turn 2, i will be a happy git

RedNoak wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
So the new Xenos stuff comes tomorrow? This thread will be quite active then.

i hope so... i dont wanna really post in the rumors thread for 10th... the amount of salt there is kinda unbearable. people complaining they cant use their 9th lists anymore
i mean i am a salty boi too... but that level of GW bashing is unreal.

as long as i can field trukks full of boyz, wagons full of dakkastuff and the occational mek construct, while not being cleared off the board by turn 2, i will be a happy git

I feel you.
Unlike for the rest of dakka, it is not considered to be impolite to not be negative about orks in this thread, so feel free share anything you like about the new rules

RedNoak wrote:

as long as i can field trukks full of boyz, wagons full of dakkastuff and the occational mek construct, while not being cleared off the board by turn 2, i will be a happy git

Same here