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This has come up at no less than 4 tournaments I have been to in the last year and has been ruled each way twice.

1) When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c or 3+c?

a) What about if area terrain you are in is the ruins base?

b) What if it is a separate piece of terrain?

Obviously when going to a tournament its worth asking the TO, but what like to see what the consensus is here.

Go to ground IIRC improves your cover save by 1, and ruins give a 4+. Normally, this would be a 3+ unless you have stealth or a similar rule that further improves your cover save.

The area terrain will depend on what you have defined with your opponent, whether it is a 'hard' 4+ or a 5+ if the model isn't obscured by actual ruin parts.

Aegis Defence lines specifically improve cover by 2 when you go to ground in them, which may be the cause of confusion.

 Daba wrote:
Go to ground IIRC improves your cover save by 1, and ruins give a 4+. Normally, this would be a 3+ unless you have stealth or a similar rule that further improves your cover save.

The area terrain will depend on what you have defined with your opponent, whether it is a 'hard' 4+ or a 5+ if the model isn't obscured by actual ruin parts.

Aegis Defence lines specifically improve cover by 2 when you go to ground in them, which may be the cause of confusion.

Area terrain also adds +2 to you cover save when you go to ground in it.

To clarify I am assuming the area terrain gives the standard 5+c and the ruin 4+c. As stated by Unit1126PLL cover saves are improved by 2 when going to ground in area terrain. Hence the disagreement.

I'd recommend reading the rules for cover saves and going to ground in area terrain as well as cover in ruins with bases immediately before replying, as they are both slight exceptions to the standard cover rules and interact in this (fairly common) case.

You get a 2+ cover save going by the rules, as you have no permission to ignore the +2 to your cover save rule from area terrain. They possibly did not consider this, however, and as it seems waaay too easy to get such a save our group houseruled it away.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You get a 2+ cover save going by the rules, as you have no permission to ignore the +2 to your cover save rule from area terrain. They possibly did not consider this, however, and as it seems waaay too easy to get such a save our group houseruled it away.

HIWPI
We did the opposite for the following reason. Bikes and Cavalry cant climb to the upper levels of a ruin. Gaining a 2+ cover save while going to ground on the base of a ruin and being obscured by said ruin gives people a reason to think about putting their heavy weapon squads or similar on the ground level instead of the upper levels. Its not a no brainer choice this way since you get better cover but limit your view and you have to worry about cavalry and bikes when benefitting from it.

@OP In the end discuss this with your opponent before game and dont insist it should be played the way that favors you. This way you should find a reasonable solution that both are happy with.

Thanks for your input.

@Mywik: I agree asking opponent/TO is the way to go, that's why I suggested doing so in the OP. This thread is just to see how people here read the rules and take a temperature. I don't really mind, different armies I play benefit differently from interpretations.

@OP The rules as written allow you to apply the bonus to going to ground in area terrain regardless of whether or not you are using the cover save you receive from said area terrain. TOs are free to make their own houserules and you have to abide by them in tournies, but in the actual rules the cover save and GtG bonus are separate rules. Many people deliberately misread this rule, though.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You get a 2+ cover save going by the rules, as you have no permission to ignore the +2 to your cover save rule from area terrain. They possibly did not consider this, however, and as it seems waaay too easy to get such a save our group houseruled it away.

Going to ground in area terrain while obscured by a ruin is easy? What about going to ground behind an Aegis Defence Line? or simply being behind an Aegis Defence Line with Shrouded?

It is a 3+ cover save, either way you go.

The model has 2 separate cover saves, a 5+ from area and 4+ from Ruins.

When you GTG, the Area Terrain is improved by 2 and the Ruin Save is improved by 1, both becoming 3+ saves. Cover saves don't overwrite each other, they both exist and you take the best.

Angelic wrote:
When you GTG, the Area Terrain is improved by 2 and the Ruin Save is improved by 1,

That's not what the rule actually says though. So your conclusion is incorrect.

Interesting that a couple of the more experienced YMDC posters have not agreed with it being 3+. Why would it be 2+? As far as I am concerned, the best you can get barring stealth etc is 3+

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
When you GTG, the Area Terrain is improved by 2 and the Ruin Save is improved by 1,

That's not what the rule actually says though. So your conclusion is incorrect.

As many read it, it does. So, my conclusion is not incorrect, it merely differs from yours.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
Interesting that a couple of the more experienced YMDC posters have not agreed with it being 3+. Why would it be 2+? As far as I am concerned, the best you can get barring stealth etc is 3+

brb p91 wrote:Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.

I have a 4+ and 5+ cover save available. Instead of getting +1, I get +2 to my cover save.
I always take the best available save. 4+ modified by 2 is 2+.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
Interesting that a couple of the more experienced YMDC posters have not agreed with it being 3+. Why would it be 2+? As far as I am concerned, the best you can get barring stealth etc is 3+

brb p91 wrote:Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.

I have a 4+ and 5+ cover save available. Instead of getting +1, I get +2 to my cover save.
I always take the best available save. 4+ modified by 2 is 2+.

And the alternate way to read that is that as it says "save" (singular), it only applies to the save mentioned in the rule. It would not apply to all cover saves that the model has. So, have to talk to the TO.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
Interesting that a couple of the more experienced YMDC posters have not agreed with it being 3+. Why would it be 2+? As far as I am concerned, the best you can get barring stealth etc is 3+

brb p91 wrote:Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.

I have a 4+ and 5+ cover save available. Instead of getting +1, I get +2 to my cover save.
I always take the best available save. 4+ modified by 2 is 2+.

You do not have a choice in which cover to use; you either have a ruin save because you are 25% covered, or an area save because you are standing in area terrain. Depending on what save is going to be used determines the modifier. If I am going to be able to use the ruins for cover my GTG will grant a +1; if I am only going to benefit from area terrain, I get a +2 for GTG. Either way you get a 3+ cover save. The only way to get a 2+ cover save is GTG behind an aegis.

And since it modifies the Go to Ground modifier, that rule is important to reference:

Models in a unit that has gone to ground immediately
receive +1 to their cover saving throws.

Not singular.

rigeld2 wrote:
And since it modifies the Go to Ground modifier, that rule is important to reference:

Models in a unit that has gone to ground immediately
receive +1 to their cover saving throws.

Not singular.

Since the "singular" use is different from the base rule, it is part of the modification. Therefore it is singular as it applies to area terrain.

Either it applies to one cover save, which could be any save, in which case I choose the ruins cover save. Or, more likely, it is simply a modification to going to ground and applies to all cover saves.
Either way, there is no restriction on applying the bonus only to your area terrain cover save.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
You do not have a choice in which cover to use; you either have a ruin save because you are 25% covered, or an area save because you are standing in area terrain. Depending on what save is going to be used determines the modifier. If I am going to be able to use the ruins for cover my GTG will grant a +1; if I am only going to benefit from area terrain, I get a +2 for GTG. Either way you get a 3+ cover save. The only way to get a 2+ cover save is GTG behind an aegis.

You would be correct if the rule stated something like "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save granted by that piece of area terrain, rather than +1." or "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1, while using the cover save granted by that piece of area terrain." Or if there was a rule somewhere else in the book that states a model is only affected by one type of terrain at a time (if there is, please tell me, I'd love to be able to assault through both open ground and terrain and strike at initiative. As far as I'm aware neither is the case, thus your argument is based on a false premise leading me to disregard the conclusion you have reached as incorrect.

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And since it modifies the Go to Ground modifier, that rule is important to reference:

Models in a unit that has gone to ground immediately
receive +1 to their cover saving throws.

Not singular.

Since the "singular" use is different from the base rule, it is part of the modification. Therefore it is singular as it applies to area terrain.

This +1

2+

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Either it applies to one cover save, which could be any save, in which case I choose the ruins cover save. Or, more likely, it is simply a modification to going to ground and applies to all cover saves.
Either way, there is no restriction on applying the bonus only to your area terrain cover save.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
You do not have a choice in which cover to use; you either have a ruin save because you are 25% covered, or an area save because you are standing in area terrain. Depending on what save is going to be used determines the modifier. If I am going to be able to use the ruins for cover my GTG will grant a +1; if I am only going to benefit from area terrain, I get a +2 for GTG. Either way you get a 3+ cover save. The only way to get a 2+ cover save is GTG behind an aegis.

You would be correct if the rule stated something like "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save granted by that piece of area terrain, rather than +1." or "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1, while using the cover save granted by that piece of area terrain." Or if there was a rule somewhere else in the book that states a model is only affected by one type of terrain at a time (if there is, please tell me, I'd love to be able to assault through both open ground and terrain and strike at initiative. As far as I'm aware neither is the case, thus your argument is based on a false premise leading me to disregard the conclusion you have reached as incorrect.

Since you are choosing to be dense here is a link that should educate:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/the-truth-about-cover-saves-in-40k/

Kirby writing it doesn't make it true you know...

rigeld2 wrote:
And since it modifies the Go to Ground modifier, that rule is important to reference:

Models in a unit that has gone to ground immediately
receive +1 to their cover saving throws.

Not singular.

Its also not singular because its tied to the word "models" grammatically. Who receives +1 to their cover saving throws? The models. That doesn't actually help in your argument because the use of a plural prevents you from determining if they are taking about whether each model has multiple cover saves or all models in the unit have the same saving throw. The rule would work in the exact same manner if worded "Any model in a unit that has gone to ground immediately receives +1 to its cover saving throw."

That said, I think rigeld is still in the right here. The rule is very simple: "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1." The bonus is not linked specifically by RAW to the 5+ save from the area terrain. I see no problem with stacking it with the 4+ from a ruined wall if you are both behind the wall and in area terrain.

 pizzaguardian wrote:
Kirby writing it doesn't make it true you know...

That isn't what is being proposed. Kirby just breaks it down and diagrams it for ease of understanding. No need for the rest of this comment. Reds8n

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
Kirby writing it doesn't make it true you know...

That isn't what is being proposed. Kirby just breaks it down and diagrams it for ease of understanding.

Except he's said literally nothing that hasn't been said already.

It's another issue of Games Workshop not defining their terms. Their writing style isn't very conducive towards a war gaming rule set especially their sort of rule set which has a crap ton of differing instances of the same rule. What the rule says is a you are adding a 2+ to your cover save. It doesn't say "You add 2+ to your area terrain cover save" just "your cover save".

Since 40k uses true of line of sight you will receive whatever save is intervening between your model and the firer. Note that this is your "cover save". Now, your model is also in area terrain so it receives benefits from that as well. Since both are your "cover save" at the same time you would always apply the 2+ benefit to either. Since you always take the best save you will take 4+ ruins but, again, this is still your "cover save". Nowhere in the rulebook, afaik, says that by taking one cover save over the other you ignore all effects from the terrain that gave you the lesser save. This would mean that, yes, you do get a 2+ cover save from going to ground in area terrain behind a wall.

Now, HIWPI? Use the "plain English" interpretation and say that you get a 3+ cover save. Less arguments about a stupid and broken ruleset.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
Kirby writing it doesn't make it true you know...

That isn't what is being proposed. Kirby just breaks it down and diagrams it for ease of understanding.

And he is doing it wrong, it happens.

@TheCustomLime

I agree with you about less arguments, so we just went the other way and called it a 2+ in my group . I also agree that this could have been written as you suggested and make our gaming much easier or a simple faq would suffice, but they haven't been releasing faq since september now :( .

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Either it applies to one cover save, which could be any save, in which case I choose the ruins cover save. Or, more likely, it is simply a modification to going to ground and applies to all cover saves.
Either way, there is no restriction on applying the bonus only to your area terrain cover save.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
You do not have a choice in which cover to use; you either have a ruin save because you are 25% covered, or an area save because you are standing in area terrain. Depending on what save is going to be used determines the modifier. If I am going to be able to use the ruins for cover my GTG will grant a +1; if I am only going to benefit from area terrain, I get a +2 for GTG. Either way you get a 3+ cover save. The only way to get a 2+ cover save is GTG behind an aegis.

You would be correct if the rule stated something like "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save granted by that piece of area terrain, rather than +1." or "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1, while using the cover save granted by that piece of area terrain." Or if there was a rule somewhere else in the book that states a model is only affected by one type of terrain at a time (if there is, please tell me, I'd love to be able to assault through both open ground and terrain and strike at initiative. As far as I'm aware neither is the case, thus your argument is based on a false premise leading me to disregard the conclusion you have reached as incorrect.

Since you are choosing to be dense here is a link that should educate:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/the-truth-about-cover-saves-in-40k/

So he makes the same mistake you did of assuming you can and have to choose which terrain rules affect your models, how is this supposed to convince me?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Either it applies to one cover save, which could be any save, in which case I choose the ruins cover save. Or, more likely, it is simply a modification to going to ground and applies to all cover saves.
Either way, there is no restriction on applying the bonus only to your area terrain cover save.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
You do not have a choice in which cover to use; you either have a ruin save because you are 25% covered, or an area save because you are standing in area terrain. Depending on what save is going to be used determines the modifier. If I am going to be able to use the ruins for cover my GTG will grant a +1; if I am only going to benefit from area terrain, I get a +2 for GTG. Either way you get a 3+ cover save. The only way to get a 2+ cover save is GTG behind an aegis.

You would be correct if the rule stated something like "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save granted by that piece of area terrain, rather than +1." or "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1, while using the cover save granted by that piece of area terrain." Or if there was a rule somewhere else in the book that states a model is only affected by one type of terrain at a time (if there is, please tell me, I'd love to be able to assault through both open ground and terrain and strike at initiative. As far as I'm aware neither is the case, thus your argument is based on a false premise leading me to disregard the conclusion you have reached as incorrect.

Since you are choosing to be dense here is a link that should educate:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/the-truth-about-cover-saves-in-40k/

So he makes the same mistake you did of assuming you can and have to choose which terrain rules affect your models, how is this supposed to convince me?

As opposed to the mistake you're making assuming you get benefits from a cover save you are not taking, bending rules to your benefit to make up for subpar play on the table.

He's not getting benefits from a cover save he isn't taking. At all.

And don't worry - it's cool to assume someone is a poor player because they're discussing rules. Totally a valid method of debate. (I know it's hard to get it from text, but that's sarcasm.)