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Burnas are free because that's what they're worth.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The main reason whay Pyromaniacs hasn't done anything in my games is because they yet have to kill anything at all...

To put that into perspective, a unit of 15 Burnas have 30 hits on average at S4, that is 15 wounds against T4 and against 3+ saves that is 5 Dead Marines, of course you have to get them into 9 inch range...good luck, and they have to survive for that long, also good luck. Basically they suck at everything.

Im hoping our mech options become a lot better in the new codex partially for this reason. Hoping BWs are good as well. I loved deploying like 6 models and seeing my opponents face when on turn 2 it turns into like 120

Had a three player game at 750 points yesterday against Imperial Knights and Necrons.

Necrons ran i think two blocks of 20 warriors with a cryptek each as well as some scarabs, plus 5 deathmarks in reserve

Knight player ran a Knight Paladin I think (the one with rapid fire battlecannon and avenger gattling cannon) and two armiger warglaives.

I ran a mob of 25 boyz with power klaw nob, a mob of 24 boyz with powerklaw nob, a warboss with power klaw and the +1 attack trait, and a gorkanaut.

So first off, yikes, a knight and two armigers in a 750 point game. My only real chance of dealing with them was my gorkanaut, so I was going to have to be careful with positioning. The necron player and I deployed in 12" by 12" boxes in adjacent corners while the knights deployed in a box in the center of the table edge opposite to us. I hid my naut from the knights behind a large tower in the center to protect it. Knight hide behind a large house. Necrons hid behind a rocky plateau. I win to go first, then knights, then crons. There are two objectives near the center of the board, one to the west of my position and one to the north.

Turn 1

I move one mob up to the westward objective with the other mob following behind, hiding behind the tower from the crons. Naut moves up to be right up against the tower and shoots at the warriors, killing four.

Knight player goes next, shooting the mob on the objective with the big knight and both armigers, killing nine. Armigers move up. He claims no objectives.

Necron player goes. 2 or 3 warriors res back. Scarabs go the long way around the plateau, trying to come up behind the armigers. Warriors moved up to claim the northern objective and everything shoots at the naut, putting two wounds on it.

Orks 1 Necrons 1 Knights 0

Turn 2

The orks on my objective move up to form a big wall around it and hopefully slow the knight's advance. Hiding mob sweeps around the tower to come to bear with the warriors and contest the other objective. Gorkanaut moves in on the other warrior mob. I shoot what I can, killing some warriors, then charge the Naut into one mob and the boyz mob into the other. Gorkanaut is mediocre while the boyz mob wipes the necron warrior unit and consolidates into the one the gorka is fighting. The northern objective is held by me, uncontested.

The knight player once again fires everything into the mob on the western objective. The big knight and one armiger then charge that mob, while the other armiger joins in on the big melee over by the northern objective. Miraculously, after all the shooting at my western mob and being doube knight charged, two boyz survive! I spend 2 cp to interrupt with the other mob to attack the armiger and take 3 wounds off of it.

Necron player goes, and basically all of the warriors in the second unit return. The deathmarks deploy and shoot at my warboss, taking three wounds off of him. Warriors hack a couple of wounds off of the naut, while the scarabs charge into the mutli-melee, killing some boyz. Gorkanaut and boyz fight back, with the necron unit being reduced to 4 warriors and the armiger going down to seven wounds.

Morale phase comes up. Unsurprisingly, my western mob fails, but when rolling for the boss nobs' Keepin' Order ability, I get a six and one remains, which is all I needed to cap the objective again! In Mork-like fashion, the western mob makes excellent gains for me despite not really krumpin' anyfing at all...sneaky gits.

Orks 3 Necrons 1 Knights 0

Turn 3

My warboss runs in towards the armiger in the enormous brawl next to the northern objective, and my naut falls back from the fight with the warriors. After unloading everything into the remaining four, one stubbornly remains, forcing me to to charge it again to finish it off and prevent RP from firing. I am however able to declare a mutli charge and catch the two crypteks and the scarabs in combat as well. The Icon of Gork makes short work of the lone warrior and both crypteks, while my warboss goes toe to toe with the armiger and kills it! The boyz do some wounds to the scarabs.

The knight player moves his knights onto the western objective.

Necron player fires some parting shots from the deathmarks at my warboss, failing to do anything. The player had to leave so the scarabs fled the combat and the deathmarks disappeared into the oblivion from whence they came.

Orks 4 Necrons 1 Knights 1

Turn 4

This was it. The big showdown. My boyz formed up on the northern objective to hod it to the last, and the gorkanaut charged in with the warboss. The towering mass of orky engineering crashed into the Knight Paladin. It did not disappoint. With the power of the Waaagh! at its back I rolled 6 crush attacks and got 5 hits, 5 wounds and rolled a phenomenal 25 damage, destroying the Knight in a single go!

...Only to have my victory snatched from me by some 2 cp house Terryn stratagem that allowed the knight to redeploy an inch away with d3 wounds remaining (in this case, 2). Cowardly 'umie scum, slinkin' away from a good scrap!

My warboss had charged the big knight and was unable to fight the armiger, which in turn absolutely destroyed him.

He then used his last CP to do the machine spirit resurgent stratagem to fire his big knight at top profile. Both knights unloaded on my gorkanaut, then the big one charged, losing a wound in overwatch, barely surviving. The armiger followed it in. Despite the dizzying array of firepower going into my naut, the scrappy juggernaut survived somehow with 3 wounds remaining (with a little help from my last CP). He struck back at the big knight vengefully, and even on his lowest profile managed to finish what he started and fell the knight once and for all!

At this point it was 6 to 3 in my favor and short of tabling me (which seemed unlikely with just one armiger remaining, but who knows, my naut was on its last legs and a skeleton crew of boyz held the northern objective) there wasn't a way for him to come back on VPs. Also, the shop was closing up so we decided to call it an ork victory! Waaaagh!

Really fun game overall, though I certainly had hot dice for most of it. I thought the knight player had this in the bag with such a skewed list, but with careful deployment and near-constant combat, my gorkanaut was able to avoid being shot long enough for me to bring him to bear against the knights. The knight player also played very conservatively which seemed like an error to me. Had he deployed more aggressively and made sure to shoot my naut to pieces, there wouldve been very little either me or the cron player couldve done to beat the knights. There was also a lot of line of sight blocking terrain on the map which helped a good bit. We might have messed up somewhere along the lines when it came to the fight phase. It got confusing with three players all involved in the same combat. Also, someone mentioned later on that the knights may have been able to fire into the combats between me and the necrons seeing as no friendly units were there, but we couldnt find the rules fast enough and decided to just keep playing it how we were, with no shooting into CC.

MVP of this game for me was definitely the Gorkanaut. It stormed through the necron lines, straight up demolished the paladin on the charge, and still managed to survive a silly amount of shooting and attacks so it could finish the darn thing off. An honorable mention goes to the last of the northern mob, stubbornly existing long enough for me to get a second VP from the objective before being obliterated.

That resurrection strat for Knights is weird.
Good play by play but I have to say that 3 player games are just too weird. I have never really gotten 3 player games to work. Multiple combats are so messy with 3 and it usually involves 2 people ganging up on one then facing each other. And what happens when someone casts do 2 people get to deny. The game kinda breaks at that point.

 Nithaniel wrote:
That resurrection strat for Knights is weird.
Good play by play but I have to say that 3 player games are just too weird. I have never really gotten 3 player games to work. Multiple combats are so messy with 3 and it usually involves 2 people ganging up on one then facing each other. And what happens when someone casts do 2 people get to deny. The game kinda breaks at that point.

It certainly gets weird and you have to involve several house rules along the lines of Triumph and Treachery to make sure there's incentive not to just target the biggest threat from one side on the table. Ideally an objective where you gain points every turn in the middle alongside secret side objectives for each player that you can change out for another one like in Maelstrom of War.

Wait, a 2 CP stratagem to resurrect a freaking knight, which then can operate at full capacity for another 1 CP stratagem? That seems crazy.

Knights are kind of balanced by having very little CP to begin with.

... that is, if GW hadn't forgotten about the existence of cheap IG battalions again.

However, in this case, the 3 CP he spend to reactivate his knight was everything he got for his army - pretty much akin to having an 8 CP stratagem for orks.

Haven't seen knights without an ig batallion.

You might want to look at the battle report a few posts up which is the reason for this discussion.

 Jidmah wrote:
You might want to look at the battle report a few posts up which is the reason for this discussion.

True, but he would have taken IG if the points limit hadn't been 750.

Are we likely to get a new boxed set or new "start collecting" set with the new codex release? Recently got back into 40k again so I havnt been following what the trends have been for previous releases.

Player in question runs Admech, so I imagine he would sub in rangers or something as chaff. I'll be playing him again tomorrow at 2000 points. Any suggestions for what I should bring? He's got the three knights, rangers, onagers and kastellan robots that I know of.

What I have available to work with is:

90 boyz
Gorkanaut
2 deff dreads
3 rokkit kanz
1 dakka jet
5 tankbustas
10 nobs with various wargear
10 grots (could be ammo runts for the nobz)
10 lootas
5 flashgitz
6 mega nobz
3 weird boyz
2 Warbosses (klaw and big choppa)
1 big mek with kff
1 mini mek
6 storm boyz (though I have ten more that I could potentially get put together before the match)
1 painboy

Obviously I'm going to run as many boyz as possible, but should I consider footslogging nobs with ammo runts just for more non-armor body count? 10 with runts have the same amount of wounds as 30 boyz but with a better save and allocation shenanigans with the runts. I know it's normally not considered that great but due to my limited amount of boyz, maybe worth it?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Man, I'd love to have a kustom stompa builder table again, because the kustom stompa in the IA book somehow managed to be a worse unit than the codex stompa, which is impressive in a way.

And yes, I LOATHE the layout of the new codexes, though I understand why they do it - so that they can update points costs via chapter approved, without having to redo the entire codex.

Umm they could even with old layout. What they couldn't with old and could in new is replace entire page od points so you wouldn#t need to refer original page for those that weren#t changed and ca for those that did.

Of course gw decided to not use that thus making points at back useless...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZoBo wrote:
I would absolutely love just a set of size-based profiles, and the ability to just build it however you want, and equip it with whatever you want, provided you pay the appropriate points-cost for all the wargear...that would be brilliant!

orks don't have STC's...ork vehicles are generally based on the random whims of the mek(s) building them at the time...you could very well have it powered by a squig in a hamster-wheel, instead of an engine, for example...

Welcome to broken system though. That's custom vehicle building rules and those always gives either underpowered junk or are brokenly good


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Wait, a 2 CP stratagem to resurrect a freaking knight, which then can operate at full capacity for another 1 CP stratagem? That seems crazy.

Thought it was 3cp. Also even then it's 50-50 does it work. It's more of amusive trick rather than competive choice. There#s nastier things than that

Also note he could have max 3 cp for battleforged. So he risked 2/3 of his cp on strategem that will fail half the time. I would have been more worried about house raven strategem

 Billagio wrote:
Are we likely to get a new boxed set or new "start collecting" set with the new codex release? Recently got back into 40k again so I havnt been following what the trends have been for previous releases.

The start collecting box is all plastics and not that old. I don't think it will get replaced.

Thoughts on cheap Battle wagons?

I would love to let my inner Ork loose and just attach 4 Big Shootaz or Rokkit Launchaz to a BW as a rule of cool, but does anyone just run BW with no guns at all? They are all definitely a points sink.

We can all hope for some pts reduction in the upcoming Codex, but for the time are any of the (non artillery) guns on a BW really worth it?

BW are usually advancing and then either dead or in combat. I really don't see a reason to invest in guns on them. The killkannon is the only one with a decent profile, but it reduces transport capacity, so...

 Jidmah wrote:
BW are usually advancing and then either dead or in combat. I really don't see a reason to invest in guns on them. The killkannon is the only one with a decent profile, but it reduces transport capacity, so...

Flash git transport doesn't want to move or assault so if you have those useful. Not optimal unit to begin with but in less competive enviroment can work(hell last time I used they were stars of my game). And killkannon transport drop is less of an issue when you aren't going to carry 20 flash gits anyway!

Not competive option but if your playing group has relaxed lists they can work. I have won games with bw+flashgit combo list and as said they were stars of the game. Of course if field is any tough this is less viable.

I have a very relaxed playing group, and I can assure you, a BW with Flash Gits is where points go to die. Putting more points into that doesn't make them any better at all.

BW are simply too expensive to use them for anything but moving some units fast for turn 1, and you need to advance them to gain any benefit over footslogging.
They also aren't really good at protecting units inside as they tend to be torn apart by assault cannons, heavy bolters, plasma guns and the like.

If you want to add survivability to your flash gits, footslog them with max ammo runts and keep them near your KFF and doc you were bringing anyways. From experience, most people tend to focus boyz mobz and artillery over them.

Got back from Dallas GT yesterday. Top table was Drukhari vs Orks. Orks guy lost, and ended up dropping to 6th after points.

His list was Green Tide galore. I think 2 batt and spearhead, made use of Da Jump. Final game was next to me, I watched from my table (wasn't in the running). He missed 4 of his da jump charges. Ouch. Drukhari just skirted around LoS blocking tarrian to stay away from Mek Gunz. Just though tI would post up.

Here is his list from BCP app.

Wierdboy
Wierdboy
Wierdboy

30 boyz
30 boyz
30 boyz

Painboy
Painboy

5 Mek Gunz with Kustom mega cannons
4 mek guns with kustom mega cannons

Warboss relic
Big mek warlord
Big mek
30 boyz
30 boyz
30 boyz

 Dynas wrote:
Got back from Dallas GT yesterday. Top table was Drukhari vs Orks. Orks guy lost, and ended up dropping to 6th after points.

His list was Green Tide galore. I think 2 batt and spearhead, made use of Da Jump. Final game was next to me, I watched from my table (wasn't in the running). He missed 4 of his da jump charges.

Story of every da jump user. I feel for the guy.

Can you still use Da Jump on turn 1 with the beta rules?

 Billagio wrote:
Can you still use Da Jump on turn 1 with the beta rules?

Yes, they explicitly exempted it from the beta rules in one of the responses from the development team. Though some might argue it "doesn't count" given that it wasn't written into the big FAQ.

Excellent. Without looking into the exact wording I would think it would be exempt since the rules specifically calls out deploying in the enemy deployment zone turn 1 at the end of the movement phase, where as Da Jump happens in the psychic phase. Im not really sure how theres an argument there.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Can you still use Da Jump on turn 1 with the beta rules?

Yes, they explicitly exempted it from the beta rules in one of the responses from the development team. Though some might argue it "doesn't count" given that it wasn't written into the big FAQ.

Plus lots of people still don't know since it's on such obscure source and buried far so you can expect rule arquments regarding it in tournaments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Billagio wrote:
Excellent. Without looking into the exact wording I would think it would be exempt since the rules specifically calls out deploying in the enemy deployment zone turn 1 at the end of the movement phase, where as Da Jump happens in the psychic phase. Im not really sure how theres an argument there.

Beta rules prevent from coming to table on T1. Da jump guys comes to table on T1. That's the issue. Only thing(besides FB comment) indicating it might not apply is that it's on box titled "tactical reserves" which does not apply. Rule text itself 100% prevents da jump.

Stupid GW writing and even more stupid positioning of clarification. Would take GW good 1 minute to put it in where any professional game development company would put but alas GW doesn't operate like professionals. End result. I was nearly prevented doing that on tournament and only got it after good 10 minutes intense rule arquments. If scenario had been remotely normal this delay likely would have meant one turn less being played. Stupid stupid lazy amateur GW who think it's more important to put silly images to FB with attitude that's clearly looking down on their customers rather than putting official notes where they are supposed to be.

tneva82 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Can you still use Da Jump on turn 1 with the beta rules?

Yes, they explicitly exempted it from the beta rules in one of the responses from the development team. Though some might argue it "doesn't count" given that it wasn't written into the big FAQ.

Plus lots of people still don't know since it's on such obscure source and buried far so you can expect rule arquments regarding it in tournaments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Billagio wrote:
Excellent. Without looking into the exact wording I would think it would be exempt since the rules specifically calls out deploying in the enemy deployment zone turn 1 at the end of the movement phase, where as Da Jump happens in the psychic phase. Im not really sure how theres an argument there.

Beta rules prevent from coming to table on T1. Da jump guys comes to table on T1. That's the issue. Only thing(besides FB comment) indicating it might not apply is that it's on box titled "tactical reserves" which does not apply. Rule text itself 100% prevents da jump.

Stupid GW writing and even more stupid positioning of clarification. Would take GW good 1 minute to put it in where any professional game development company would put but alas GW doesn't operate like professionals. End result. I was nearly prevented doing that on tournament and only got it after good 10 minutes intense rule arquments. If scenario had been remotely normal this delay likely would have meant one turn less being played. Stupid stupid lazy amateur GW who think it's more important to put silly images to FB with attitude that's clearly looking down on their customers rather than putting official notes where they are supposed to be.

See the problem is that the Tactical Reserves rule in itself does not prevent using Da Jump 1st turn. They are not arriving on the battlefield, they already are on the battlefield. The conundrum begins when GW made a completely different FAQ entry, and with typical GW finesse they completely forgot the interplay between different FAQ answers.

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and
then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the
Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having
moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.

Now I believe the intent is that the movement/shooting restrictions for arriving as reinforcements are in effect but the unit is not actually arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements. However the sad part is that when you add the two rules together then by absolute RAW you cannot Da Jump outside your deployment zone on turn one.

Feel free to house rule however you like but be prepared to not do any DaJumping on turn one if you run into a RAW argument.

 Weazel wrote:

See the problem is that the Tactical Reserves rule in itself does not prevent using Da Jump 1st turn. They are not arriving on the battlefield, they already are on the battlefield. The conundrum begins when GW made a completely different FAQ entry, and with typical GW finesse they completely forgot the interplay between different FAQ answers.

But they LEAVE it. And if you leave it how can you then be on battlefield without arriving? Da Jump specifically says they LEAVE the battlefield. As in no more there. GW intended it to not work as they clarified on FB. Good. No problems on them clarifying how it's supposed to work. That's great! Problem is them putting it only on facebook comment(and rather insultingly toward their customers) which has before been unofficial source and only there. And now it's buried who knows where. Not everybody follows FB posts. So plenty of people still don't know about that clarification. Which means you can expect to run into people unaware of it resulting in rule arquments. Which is precisely what happened to me on last tournament.

Yup. I hope they reword the spell in the Codex, should they keep it in the game at all... it just feels too gimmicky and it's the sole reason Orks have had a sliver of competitiveness left. I wish they would just drop it altogether and balance Orks by other means.

It's the same with KFF basically, feels like every Ork vehicle is balanced around having a 5++ (however they would be overpriced even if they had it as an innate ability).

Other armies have such features with their codex. Why remove it from orks?

tneva82 wrote:
Other armies have such features with their codex. Why remove it from orks?

Well not necessarily remove but make it less of a mandatory pick.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Are we likely to get a new boxed set or new "start collecting" set with the new codex release? Recently got back into 40k again so I havnt been following what the trends have been for previous releases.

The start collecting box is all plastics and not that old. I don't think it will get replaced.

Unless they move the Painboy back into the HQ slot they will need to though. You can't make a patrol detachment with it currently which is pretty weird.