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Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So the Cults of the Thousand Sons rule doesn't do anything except restrict the availability of the new psychic powers and warlord traits? Fantastic.
I especially like how it effectively limits the availability of the new psychic powers to 1 cast per turn per detachment. Nice of them to do that - wouldn't want Thousand Sons being able to cast too many powers.
But something's still missing. I don't think we've seen anything that randomly blows up your own guys yet. 7 powers left to reveal though...
It doesn't restrict access to the existing powers, just powers associated to the other cults.
Were you mad when Fists couldn't use the Ravenguards psychic powers too?
Except that's not even remotely the same thing?
Fists and RG are a Chapter the same as TS, not as a cult, both IF and RG got a 9~ or however many spells each, not 1 per Detachment
So in this cool new release that lets you build new things using subfactions of a subfaction you're saying it's bad that the subfaction's subfaction didn't individually get as many rules as other subfactions?
Because basically you're arguing that by not giving the cults the same level of content as the SM Chapters GW is doing you a disservice. That doesn't track as reasonable imo.
Imperium - Space Marines - Ravegaurd vs
Chaos - Chaos Space Marines - Thousand Sons
Yep - if GW gave indivdual Companies special stuff you would have a point
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So the Cults of the Thousand Sons rule doesn't do anything except restrict the availability of the new psychic powers and warlord traits? Fantastic.
I especially like how it effectively limits the availability of the new psychic powers to 1 cast per turn per detachment. Nice of them to do that - wouldn't want Thousand Sons being able to cast too many powers.
But something's still missing. I don't think we've seen anything that randomly blows up your own guys yet. 7 powers left to reveal though...
It doesn't restrict access to the existing powers, just powers associated to the other cults.
Were you mad when Fists couldn't use the Ravenguards psychic powers too?
Except that's not even remotely the same thing?
Fists and RG are a Chapter the same as TS, not as a cult, both IF and RG got a 9~ or however many spells each, not 1 per Detachment
So in this cool new release that lets you build new things using subfactions of a subfaction you're saying it's bad that the subfaction's subfaction didn't individually get as many rules as other subfactions?
Because basically you're arguing that by not giving the cults the same level of content as the SM Chapters GW is doing you a disservice. That doesn't track as reasonable imo.
I'm not comparing cults to chapters, I'm comparing chapter to chapter, pretty simple.
While everybody has access to 9x of something, TS in any given game have access to 1x of the pool of new rules because of the cults limitation, I'd be happy to remove the cults and get access to all the spells and stats as anybody else Ofc any new rule is welcome, but it's also pretty natural to compare what individual factions get, and atm what TS got (from what was seen) is OK but not exciting, and pretty limitating in what can be used because of the cult limitation
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So the Cults of the Thousand Sons rule doesn't do anything except restrict the availability of the new psychic powers and warlord traits? Fantastic.
I especially like how it effectively limits the availability of the new psychic powers to 1 cast per turn per detachment. Nice of them to do that - wouldn't want Thousand Sons being able to cast too many powers.
But something's still missing. I don't think we've seen anything that randomly blows up your own guys yet. 7 powers left to reveal though...
It doesn't restrict access to the existing powers, just powers associated to the other cults.
Were you mad when Fists couldn't use the Ravenguards psychic powers too?
Except that's not even remotely the same thing?
Fists and RG are a Chapter the same as TS, not as a cult, both IF and RG got a 9~ or however many spells each, not 1 per Detachment
So in this cool new release that lets you build new things using subfactions of a subfaction you're saying it's bad that the subfaction's subfaction didn't individually get as many rules as other subfactions?
Because basically you're arguing that by not giving the cults the same level of content as the SM Chapters GW is doing you a disservice. That doesn't track as reasonable imo.
Except TS are not treated as a CSM subfaction, and are locked out of the vast majority of csm options.
The cult is silly when all it does is give you one OPTION for a spell, a warlord trait and a relic. It effects up to 3 models, assuming you even want to take them all and not just the basic ones.
Given that the duplicity spell is yet another of having the same spell as someone else, except worse so it cancels out our army trait is adding insult to injury.
The cults COULD have been meaningful, but instead they are a further tax, giving you a choice of 1 out of 9, where everyone else just gets 6.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Tyranids got the same, CWE too, Drukhari and harleys got less.
CSM got more than one trait and one relic per legion, but they didn't get the more than a dozen or so stratagems (per legion) that will be given to TS, nor did they get any powers.
Marines aren't "everyone".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 18:49:31
Imperium - Space Marines - Ravegaurd vs
Chaos - Chaos Space Marines - Thousand Sons
Yep - if GW gave indivdual Companies special stuff you would have a point
Except 1) It's Chaos-CSM-Thousand Sons-Cults and 2) You're making my point for me, this is the equivalent of company-level support for Chapters, hence my confusion at people being salty about it.
While everybody has access to 9x of something, TS in any given game have access to 1x of the pool of new rules because of the cults limitation, I'd be happy to remove the cults and get access to all the spells and stats as anybody else
Except they also have access to the base powers, traits, and relics they already got. So they're getting additional options on top of what already existed. And like you said if you're comparing them chapter to chapter, this means that TS has 9 permutations on their existing rules, which is more than could be said for RG or DA or whatever you fancy. I don't get how you see being able to stack new powers and strats on top of what you already have as limiting. Wanting access to all 9 sets seems unrealistic imo .
The cult is silly when all it does is give you one OPTION for a spell, a warlord trait and a relic. It effects up to 3 models, assuming you even want to take them all and not just the basic ones.
Given that the duplicity spell is yet another of having the same spell as someone else, except worse so it cancels out our army trait is adding insult to injury.
The cults COULD have been meaningful, but instead they are a further tax, giving you a choice of 1 out of 9, where everyone else just gets 6.
1) Show me where in the preview they said there was only one power, trait, and strat per cult.
2) Someone else having a better version of a rule does not make that rule inherently bad
3) How is this a tax? You get to stack new powers and rules! What is this magic 6 you're talking about? The psychic disciplines others get? The ones TS already had? So you'd only be satisfied if this release entailed 54 new powers?
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh
One extra spell, relic WL-trait and Strat is literally what came with the <Khorne>, <Slaanesh>, etc... keyword in the original CSM dex before Vigilus started charging a pre-game CP for these type of “more-access-keywords”.
My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Previously, your army(like Death Guard) did not have subfactions. You have them now.
Why you got them, who knows. Probably the fact that one of the most popular questions is about "what happened to the Cults after the Heresy!".
Probably the fact that one of the most popular questions is about "what happened to the Cults after the Heresy!".
Yeah, that question is going to linger, because given the list of cults was Corvidae, Pavoni, Pyrae, Athanaeans, Raptora (plus the things that aren't really cults- Jackal, Scarab, Ruin and Blindness)
yet the list of cults in this book is this:
Those are the Cults of Prophecy, Time, Mutation, Scheming, Magic, Knowledge, Change, Duplicity and Manipulation.
Presumably the Pavoni are now just called the mutation cult, and the Corvidae are now just 'Prophecy...'
but notably the Pyrae (Fire), Athanaean (Telepathy), Raptora (TK shields), and the Order of Ruin (world ending, represented by the character Ignis in Ahriman's trilogy), etc. aren't part of this list.
So mostly these seem to not be the cults people were asking about.
------
As far as the complaints about the cults go, it seems pretty obvious. In the HH books, these cults fought together on the same battlefield, bearing their particular abilities to bear-- a unit of Raptora would hold the line with shields while a squad of Pyrae moved up and burned things and a Corvidae scouted ahead. The structure presented suggests you can't do that with these new cults. Hence... dissatisfaction.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/01/14 19:55:59
Hey, remember when turn 1 deep striking 30-man blobs of tzaangors partially created the Tactical Reserves rule?
Psyche! (or is it Psyk?)
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/14 20:08:59
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh
It is based on the assumption that Thousand Sons will not see an update to their basic "additional relics" stratagem, or that they will not get a 1Cp stratagem for additional warlord traits alongside the cults.
Which I find...unlikely. I think we will get both, in line with the space marine codex 2.0 and various supplements.
What I do not find that is satisfactory. The ability to purchase benefits for a single model for command points /= massive enormous army-wide buffs that imperial armies have been getting for staying un-souped.
Chaos is the MOST FREQUENTLY souped faction. People have literally been taking just the HQs and none of the troops from Tsons and stapling them on to the troops from freakin' nurgle daemons for ages now. If GW is really going to be attacking the soup problem with Carrots rather than Sticks, chaos armies should be getting the largest carrots of anyone for staying monofaction. Instead, it just seems like Tsons are getting the same thing everyone else has gotten out of PA....but divided by 9 for some reason, AND limited to monofaction lists? That's just super lazy, especially in the same book where they've handed GK and DA exactly what they needed to be competitive outside of soup lists.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
You're being extremely disingenuous here. You bloody well know that comparing a 1KSons cult to a Chapter, Order or Craftworld is not right. What this seems to be giving is the equivelant of the Specialist Detachments in Vigilus, only without having to pay the CP to get the keyword (at least I hope they don't have to pay the CP to get the keyword), which means that in any given game a 1KSons army will only ever have acces to 3 of the 9 sets of abilities and because they come in sets there's no picking and choosing. Would have worked much better if it had been like the strats Space Marines got in PA2 where you can make a Librarian, Chaplain, Techmarine, etc... into a better version.
As for those CP costs, you do know they have a codex with generic stratagems for extra relics (but not Warlord Traits) already, right?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
Dark angels, a subfaction of space marines, (going by current rumours) and GKs, a subfaction of space marines, both get:
- Rules that affect all units, all the time (unless you choose otherwise).
- All of their stratagems can be used in the same game (if you bring their relevant units.
- Their relics and warlord traits can be mixed and matched as you see fit.
TS, a subfaction of CSM, get:
- A "psychic discipline" that's 9 powers but also only 1 per detachement.
- No interchangeability at all between the cult specific relics, warlord traits, and (possibly) stratagems; which are also dictated by your choice in the previously mentioned "discipline" or vice versa.
By choosing 1 WT, psychic power, or relic. You automatically lock out 90% of all the cult rules we get with NO interchangeability whatsoever. Tell me, what book has that kind of restrictions?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/14 20:42:51
I wonder what all the people crapping on the GK preview think of the book now? DA & TS got the short end of the stick, but to be fair they (GKs) were in the worst spot to begin with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 20:40:47
MiguelFelstone wrote: I wonder what all the people crapping on the GK preview think of the book now? DA & TS got the short end of the stick, but to be fair they (GKs) were in the worst spot to begin with.
Dark angels have some amazing things lined up if rumours are true.
You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
You're being extremely disingenuous here. You bloody well know that comparing a 1KSons cult to a Chapter, Order or Craftworld is not right. What this seems to be giving is the equivelant of the Specialist Detachments in Vigilus, only without having to pay the CP to get the keyword (at least I hope they don't have to pay the CP to get the keyword), which means that in any given game a 1KSons army will only ever have acces to 3 of the 9 sets of abilities and because they come in sets there's no picking and choosing. Would have worked much better if it had been like the strats Space Marines got in PA2 where you can make a Librarian, Chaplain, Techmarine, etc... into a better version.
As for those CP costs, you do know they have a codex with generic stratagems for extra relics (but not Warlord Traits) already, right?
Those limitations already existed, I'm not sure how this release makes them better or worse. Yet the dude's citing them as if they're new and problematic. That's what I'm not getting.
Not sure how I'm being disingenuous. Having their own codex doesn't make them more snow-flakey than any chapter or order or craftworld. Heck half this forum thinks armies like DA and SW shouldn't even get their own books, so I'm not sure why an army who only had two unique units to their name only 3-4 years ago suddenly should get the SM treatment and have it's own internal subfactions broken out into full chapter-equivalent rulesets.
I'm not saying they don't deserve it, I wish every army had as much customization options as SM. I just don't understand why that was the expectation.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
Dark angels, a subfaction of space marines, (going by current rumours) and GKs, a subfaction of space marines, both get:
- Rules that affect all units, all the time (unless you choose otherwise).
- All of their stratagems can be used in the same game (if you bring their relevant units.
- Their relics and warlord traits can be mixed and matched as you see fit.
TS, a subfaction of CSM, get:
- A "psychic discipline" that's 9 powers but also only 1 per detachement.
- No interchangeability at all between the cult specific relics, warlord traits, and (possibly) stratagems; which are also dictated by your choice in the previously mentioned "discipline" or vice versa.
By choosing 1 WT, psychic power, or relic. You automatically lock out 90% of all the cult rules we get with NO interchangeability whatsoever. Tell me, what book has that kind of restrictions?
Theeee same books that don't let my Dark Angels use Ravenguard psychic powers? TS get their baseline 6 (or however many) powers plus another of 9 the player gets to choose from. How is that bad or unfair? To me it sounds like whinging about not being able to make cross-cult wombo combos.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/14 20:56:00
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
You're being extremely disingenuous here. You bloody well know that comparing a 1KSons cult to a Chapter, Order or Craftworld is not right. What this seems to be giving is the equivelant of the Specialist Detachments in Vigilus, only without having to pay the CP to get the keyword (at least I hope they don't have to pay the CP to get the keyword), which means that in any given game a 1KSons army will only ever have acces to 3 of the 9 sets of abilities and because they come in sets there's no picking and choosing. Would have worked much better if it had been like the strats Space Marines got in PA2 where you can make a Librarian, Chaplain, Techmarine, etc... into a better version.
As for those CP costs, you do know they have a codex with generic stratagems for extra relics (but not Warlord Traits) already, right?
Those limitations already existed, I'm not sure how this release makes them better or worse. Yet the dude's citing them as if they're new and problematic. That's what I'm not getting.
Not sure how I'm being disingenuous. Having their own codex doesn't make them more snow-flakey than any chapter or order or craftworld. Heck half this forum thinks armies like DA and SW shouldn't even get their own books, so I'm not sure why an army who only had two unique units to their name only 3-4 years ago suddenly should get the SM treatment and have it's own internal subfactions broken out into full chapter-equivalent rulesets.
I'm not saying they don't deserve it, I wish every army had as much customization options as SM. I just don't understand why that was the expectation.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
Dark angels, a subfaction of space marines, (going by current rumours) and GKs, a subfaction of space marines, both get:
- Rules that affect all units, all the time (unless you choose otherwise).
- All of their stratagems can be used in the same game (if you bring their relevant units.
- Their relics and warlord traits can be mixed and matched as you see fit.
TS, a subfaction of CSM, get:
- A "psychic discipline" that's 9 powers but also only 1 per detachement.
- No interchangeability at all between the cult specific relics, warlord traits, and (possibly) stratagems; which are also dictated by your choice in the previously mentioned "discipline" or vice versa.
By choosing 1 WT, psychic power, or relic. You automatically lock out 90% of all the cult rules we get with NO interchangeability whatsoever. Tell me, what book has that kind of restrictions?
Theeee same books that don't let my Dark Angels use Ravenguard psychic powers? TS get their baseline 6 (or however many) powers plus another of 9 the player gets to choose from. How is that bad or unfair? To me it sounds like whinging about not being able to make cross-cult wombo combos.[/spoiler]
Look at it this way, grey knights are the perfect analogue to thousand sons, both self contained books with no sub forces.
Grey knights get a new army wide rule they can move through alongside a swathe of new psychic powers and relics they can access as they please.
Thousand sons get 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 power out of 9 sets. They are locked out of the other 8 in each detachment.
MiguelFelstone wrote: I wonder what all the people crapping on the GK preview think of the book now? DA & TS got the short end of the stick, but to be fair they (GKs) were in the worst spot to begin with.
Dark angels have some amazing things lined up if rumours are true.
Most of them are Deathwing and Ravenguard related, and i don't see either them of them that great. Don't get me wrong, i welcome the DW changes but don't think it's enough to make them competitive (maybe Knights+Talon?). To be honest however i havne't played DA since third so i've probably missed a few things.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Theeee same books that don't let my Dark Angels use Ravenguard psychic powers? TS get their baseline 6 (or however many) powers plus another of 9 the player gets to choose from. How is that bad or unfair? To me it sounds like whinging about not being able to make cross-cult wombo combos.
You realize that Dark Angels, like Thousand Sons, are a standalone codex right? What you describe is equivalent to Thousand Sons not getting access to Night Lords psychic powers, which of course don't exist because Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines. What's happening is more equivalent to Dark Angels losing their Doctrine benefits in exchange for a rule forcing them to choose a company for each detachment and then locking each of their new relics and warlord traits to a specific company.
Things I'm still curious about:
1. Is Ahriman locked to a specific Cult? (guessing no) Does choosing a Cult prevent you from taking Magnus or Ahriman? (guessing yes)
2. Does the Cult specific power replace Smite as rumored? (guessing yes) If so, do all the psykers of a given Cult have to replace Smite with the Cult specific power? (guessing also yes) And if so, can the Cult specific power be cast multiple times a turn? (guessing no)
Dudeface wrote: Grey knights get a new army wide rule they can move through alongside a swathe of new psychic powers and relics they can access as they please.
Thousand sons get 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 power out of 9 sets. They are locked out of the other 8 in each detachment.
At least whats been previewed GKs got the most buffs, but honestly out of the three who needed it more? I said be honest.
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with
Dunno. With the chance to bring back full wounds taking 10 of them for ~340 points is quite a lot of AP2 and with that spell - decent durability. And they bring their own sorcerer and its a 5 to cast...
AND you can take a second detachment with that relic to try to guarantee you a 9.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/14 21:56:53
Dudeface wrote: Grey knights get a new army wide rule they can move through alongside a swathe of new psychic powers and relics they can access as they please.
Thousand sons get 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 power out of 9 sets. They are locked out of the other 8 in each detachment.
At least whats been previewed GKs got the most buffs, but honestly out of the three who needed it more? I said be honest.
It's not the number/scale of buffs but the limitations of options.
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with
Dunno. With the chance to bring back full wounds taking 10 of them for ~340 points is quite a lot of AP2 and with that spell - decent durability. And they bring their own sorcerer and its a 5 to cast...
AND you can take a second detachment with that relic to try to guarantee you a 9.
I’m actually in doubt if the relic works with that as it states “unmodified 9+”, just as I’m not sure how this relic works with changing opponents dice and rerolls, let’s say you have a caster at 1w, you manifest a power with a roll of 6 and 1 and I change your 1 to a 6 so you peril and die...can you then reroll the natural 6 so you’d not peril? Also can you reroll the 1 if I changed your result of 6 into 1? I have a feeling this relic will require a faq
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 22:16:43
If GW ever got round to making a 40K movie, it would just be some chaos followers sitting in the corner of a dimly lit bar, drinking and complaining.
Currently, it still looks like this is the most interesting of the PA books so far. Will be great to see DA and GK elevated in competitiveness. Tsons don't look as strong, but since GW sees chaos as a soup list for now, they aren't going to give them significant buffs. I would like to see chaos get mono chapter bonuses, but that is not the way GW sees it currently, not sure why.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Seems like TSons players are more unhappy now than if they got nothing at all...?
Imho yes, mind you that’s just me, getting nothing means that at some point in the future you’ll get something and it might be good, getting something mediocre (might not be as bad, opinion based on what was seen) means that you indeed got something and given the very slow release cycle also means you won’t see anything else for 1+ years.
Add to that that this is the “Psychic Awakening” and as an one trick pony psychic phase army you’d think that’s your time to shine, and the fact that sadly everything ends up being benchmarked against space marines (since the amazing cool rules they keep on getting) and there you go you have a whole lot of underwhelmed TS players
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 22:34:57
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh 
