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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Okay, I have to know...does anyone, anyone, have an idea for a pure Thousand Sons list that actually works?  Even with the Key it just seems hopeless.

Thank you
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I've had a lot of fun with a "Dustwing" force.....but I wouldn't say it's competitive. Right now I'm looking at a Tzeentch/T.Son Lost and the Dammed list and it looks like it could be powerful but a pure T.Son force isn't in the cards right now.
   
Made in de
Dominating Dominatrix






Piercing the heavens

IMO, you don't play these armys (be it Thousand Sons, Death Guard or something else) for winning or effectiness, but for having a cool fluff army where you can convert much.
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







Blackmoor's got one he used quite effectively at AdeptiCon

"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




South Pasadena

@Centurion, I know Blackmoor and I think his success at Adepticon with his Thousand Sons is more a testiment to his ability to play the game well than that the Thousand Sons are a good list. I hope this is the first and last time I compliment Blackmoor.

Darrian

 
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







Hey don't knock my teammate.

I'm definitely not saying that the thousand sons are a class A list. But if you're looking for advice on how to best use them, I'd go with someone who brought them to two of the toughest competitions around.


"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

Well...at Adepticon I went 2-2 at the Gladiator with them, and 2-1 at the RTT. I should have gone 3-0 but I attacked a razorback on the last turn that I did not have to, and I ended up killing 2 of my own guys. That knocked my one unit that was holding 2 objectives below half strength and that stopped me from being a scoring unit and cost me the game

Thousand Sons are a tough army to play. I will try to give you a few pointers...
#1. How they work is by having tooled up ACs. The TS squads just act as a huge meat shield (or dust shield) for your characters. You have a powerfist wielding engine of death surrounded by 16 wounds. But remember to keep your squads together. Even though they are big and tough, they can be picked apart one at a time.
#2. Thousand Sons are one of the few armies that can still rhino rush (SoB being the other). What you do is you drive up one turn and pop smoke. Then you drive up another turn and then get out. You should then have your AC cast 2 winds of chaos (using your thrall wizard) and then you rapid fire your 16 bolter shots. Anything that lived through the WoC will be dead by the time you are done with the bolters.

There are a lot of downsides to playing them though. I only had 6 scoring units in my army. That was brutal with all of the objective/table quarter missions.

I find that the Thousand Sons (at least my build of them) do very well against any assault army. Any army that I can out shoot, I will beat. It lets me hide my rhinos, and thin out the ranks so I can do my WoC trick. The big downside is that any army that can really outshoot me I will lose to. They can pop my rhinos, and then they can pick me apart at their leisure. Also the big Achilles heel of the Sons is strength 8+ AP 3+ weapons. They double the toughness, and ignore the fact that they have 2 wounds. This is really bad if you are fighting a lot of pie plates.

I will sum up their units:
Good
Lord
Lt.
Rubric Marines
Rubric Terminators
Heavy Support

Bad
Lord of Change
Flamers

Ugly
Horrors
Screamers
Possesed
Chosen

My build is normally:
Demon Prince,
Chosen in a Land Raider (I would not recommend this. Chosen are way, way, way over priced. I just do it to get a Land Raider in the elite slot to aid my shooting).
Thousand Son Squad in a Rhino
Thousand Son Squad in a Rhino
Predator
Dreadnought (CWF is great against horde armies)
Defiler

If I had the will, I would buy 2 more TS squads. That would be much harder to kill, and greatly increase my odds of getting 2-3 rhinos across the board.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Thanks to everyone for your input.

I myself have actually been playing Tzeentch on and off for several years, have won a few tourneys with them, and perhaps relating to a lack of experience with 4th ed., have found my old tactics failing.

I really haven't done much with a Daemon prince, I may have to try that, But most of my rhino-rush attempts seem to always end with either a popped rhino on 1st/second turn, and then a huge glut of heavy weapons picking my squads apart.  I am planning on taking a "Key" army next tourney, and was wondering if anyone had ideas on how to make it work.

I may go back to the rhino-rush plan.  I don't know.

Anyone have any success with the Key?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

There are several problems with the key.
#1. You use the deep strike rules. And when you deep strike several things can happen to you, and most of them are bad.
#2. It has been argued that the RAW of the Key is that you can only gate rubric marines. That is a huge downside since you lose the untargetable AC.
#3. You end up in a tight wad of troops where bad things like plasma cannons and battle cannons will cause a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
#4. Thousand Sons work (at least most of the effective builds of them) as an assault army. And since you are slow and purposeful, most armies will just walk away from you, and you can't catch them, or they will pile on you with several powerfists.

But I see the key being good with Rubric Terminators, but again, without the AC with a powerfist, the unit is greatly diminished.

And as far as getting my units and rhinos across the board...if you notice I take a lot of heavy support. They act as priority targets for heavy weapons. They are not just there to shoot. I tool up the defiler and Dread with mutated hull, and give the Predator demonic possesion. Then I park them in some cover. If you are not taking enough heavy support as fire magnets, your rhinos will be in a world of hurt. Also, the rhinos will only have to live for one turn. If you start the game with the troops outside, most people will not shoot at empty rhinos. Then on your turn everyone piles in, moves 12" and pop smoke (This is the time where you prayer is needed). Then in turn #2 you go the final 12",spin the rhino around and everyone piles out. Line up your AC so he can hit the most models with WoC and let the fun begin.


 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror




Golden, CO

A) What is the "Key"? I don't recognize the term.
B) Blackmoor, why do you consider Flamers to be "bad?" I like using them, it's my mini squad of mobile heavy bolters, with an effective 24" range. Sure they're expensive, but most of my games they end up living, especially w/2 wounds each. Maybe they're not as good in an all TS army - I mostly play mixed, and so there are other, tastier threats.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

A) What is the "Key"? I don't recognize the term.


Rules published in a WD allowing you to take a choice called Arhiman's chosen, who are akin to sorcerors. They have a power called "The Key" which allows them to DS any Rubric unit they accompany. Unfortunately, the RAW prevent the AC, who does much of the damage, from coming along. In addition, the rules are permission only. A noble idea; sub-par execution by GW. I want to say that the article was partially authored by Mauleed.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

Flamers are just ok. I was being flippant when I put them into the Bad category. The categories should really be labeled Good, OK, and Bad.

Demons work because you can take some awesome assault units, and then you make them untargetable when they are in reserve. Then you can summon them and they can move and kill a lot of stuff. Flamers play contrary to all that.

Now let?s look at Flamers. They are very expensive. 207 points for 9 of them. That means that you are fighting the first 2-3 turns with a 207 point handicap. That is a big chunk of change. Then let?s look at their damage. They do very well against horde type armies, but against your average MEQ, they aren't that great. Let?s run the numbers. 27 shots, 13.5 shots will hit, 9 will wound then 3 marines will fail their saves. Then they will unleash hell on a fragile unit. Toughness 3 with a 5+ save will not last long even with 2 wounds each. And heaven help you if they get into assault.


 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror




Golden, CO

Eh. I tend to play Word Bearers mostly, so I'm used to having ~half my army off the board for the first few terms, and used to having a supply of combat stuff already - again, maybe it's different in an all Tzeentch army. It's true they're not as good against MEQs, by themselves. For that case, I tend to use them as support, and target scouts, rhinos, speeders, etc, or finish off small squads, or even if necessary go into combat to tie up a unit. They really come into their own against pretty much any non-MEQ - eldar, ig, tau, orks, and tyranids.
   
Made in us
Foolproof Falcon Pilot





I have always loved thousand sons from a fluff point of view and when putting the list to practice, it whent rather well. I had to find the right ballance between fighting shooty armies and close combat armies.

My list had a chaos lord tooled out for close combat (a total squad killer-twin lightning claws temrinator armor and other nasties). A squad of 9 rubric terminators with a tooled out ac with chainfist and such.

For troops I had 3 squads of rubric marines

My champions were all given 2 thralls and bolt of change. I found this to give me a good balance in anti tank and infantry. Admittantly, tanks were always a pain and I later added a predator and or defiler in the list. My tactics involved just advancing up shooting things with my terminators deepstriking. Once the terminators hit it was usually good game, I've never lost the squad completely in any game. I have never gotten worse than a draw with this setup, too. Any thoughts?

Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!

My gaming blog regarding Eldar and soon to be CSM:Thousand Sons: http://yriel.blogspot.com/

My WIP Tyranid Fandex:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/576691.page#6486415 
   
 
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