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I'm debating on which LR variant to take.

I am a Black Templar player and use it on armylists 1500 points upwards to transport one of my Crusader squads - in this case, 10 guys and 0 Neophytes (the Neophytes ride a LS Storm and are a separate scoring unit instead).

So at least for me, the Crusader's extra space is wasted. The Redeemer can carry 12 models which is roomy enough for an additional IC or two.

The Crusader has the advantage of being able to fire its two Hurricane Bolters from turn 1 itself, and can instead also move 12" and snapfire everything (snapfire + twin-link work wonders) while the Redeemer cant do that with its flamestorms, even if they were in range.


The Redeemer on the other hand, can actually be used (after the crusader squad has charged out) as a tank that can wipe out squads all on its own - while the Crusader can force a handful of saves and maybe take out 2 or 3 MEQ models if lucky (from both Hurricanes firing), the Redeemer can take out at least 4 from one flamestorm cannon alone. The enemy cannot hide behind ADLs or ruins either.

And, given the 90° fire-arc of the sponsons, the flamestorm cannon can actually be placed almost anywhere in proximity to the LRR's sides, making the vehicle relatively safe from getting assaulted, while the Hurricanes can simply pour some fire and do little else.

Plus its 10 points cheaper. So what do you think?

Given the difficulties (read: impossibilities) of lining up both Flamestorms on the same squad, you're often forced to use your PotMS to utilize both flamers, whereas a Crusader gets to shoot it's Hurricanes and AC at infantry and PotMS the Multi-Melta into a tank, or deliver the AC and MM into an MC and Huricane some infantry. It's a more versatile machine, all things considered.

One thing I would look at (having little knowledge of Stronghold Assault) is driving the Redeemer up a Promethium pipe. Does it turn those cannons into torrent flamers? Because that would be delicious.

You left out the "magnetize, so you can use either" option.

SJ

Another perk of the LRC over the LRR is that it’s a DT for the crusader squad.

If you are blowing the HS pick and just dragging 10 guys around, go with the classic LR with the TLLCs. But that’s not an option in your poll...

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Given the difficulties (read: impossibilities) of lining up both Flamestorms on the same squad

Getting one template on a squad is enough, since it's usually wounding on a 2+ and ignoring armour saves. Against MEQ, the Redeemer is the way to go.

The Crusader's Hurricane bolters are trash, and you're paying for extra transport capacity that you're not using. BUT... with a crusader, you can start with your squad embarked, and move 12"+6" flat out on turn 1. That might be worth something. EDIT: I'm dumb, you can start the game embarked on a Redeemer as well.

I would not call it imposible to get both Flamestorms on the same unit, just realy hard, I have actualy done it a few time.

It sort depends on personal preferance.

As BT, it depends on what you want to do.

If you need the extra space go with the LRC
If space isnt an issue LRR is great too.

If your inquisition however i like the LRC much more for psybolt ammo.

also magnets.

 Nevelon wrote:
If you are blowing the HS pick and just dragging 10 guys around, go with the classic LR with the TLLCs. But that’s not an option in your poll...

Woah I totally missed that one, thanks for the reminder. My armylist at 2k already has 3 occupied HS (Whirlwind, Vindie and Predator Annihilator)

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You left out the "magnetize, so you can use either" option.

I wasnt asking how to build the tank, but which variant to use in an all-comers armylist that only transports 10 guys.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
BUT... with a crusader, you can start with your squad embarked, and move 12"+6" flat out on turn 1. That might be worth something.

Wait, are you saying you can't start your squad inside a non-dedicated transport vehicle in 6th?

Crusader.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

Getting one template on a squad is enough, since it's usually wounding on a 2+ and ignoring armour saves. Against MEQ, the Redeemer is the way to go.

The Crusader's Hurricane bolters are trash, and you're paying for extra transport capacity that you're not using. BUT... with a crusader, you can start with your squad embarked, and move 12"+6" flat out on turn 1. That might be worth something.

Strictly speaking, yes, the Redeemer is a superior anti-MEQ Land Raider. However it suffers in two departments in real-game application: it HAS to get int Melta range to do its damage. If it flunks, it dies. This, and anti-MEQ comes easier and more efficiently in other departments of the book, so I would not dedicated a heavy support slot (let alone a Land Raider) to this duty.

Crusader.

Better range, synergy (The turn your unit charges out of the redeemer they will be blocking flamer shots), and transport cap.

It is also quite nice for picking FMC's out of the air, because with 10-16 TL shots, you can put some damage on them and possibly ground them.

To expound, the Crusader allows your squad to close into melee range, while still being able to be threatening at extended range. It has great anti-infantry firepower, while still being able to threaten vehicles. I think that, out of the three of them, it's an easy choice.

That being said, I never take one as a Heavy Support choice. I always take mine as a Dedicated Transport for Assault Terminators. I like not giving up the slot, or the extra point in Big Guns Never Tire missions.

The Crusader is the better of the two, but I have had more fun and success with the Redeemer.

My “Best Kill Ever” happened back in 5th.

I managed to get near a strung out Khorne Berserker Squad and was able to get both Flamestorm Cannons, the Assault Cannon and the Strom Bolter into them killing them off mostly. Then my Multi Melta caught the Chaos Dreadnaught causing it to Explode [6”] finishing off the 1st Khorne Berserker Squad and nearly taking out a second.

I have not lost it in a game yet and it does well, but I think that is more of it being one of those “Lucky Model” things more than it being a Redeemer.
My Crusader on the other hand likes to track itself one Turn 1 and Explode in Turn 2.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Wait, are you saying you can't start your squad inside a non-dedicated transport vehicle in 6th?

Huh, I thought they couldn't (and that was the understanding that our local gaming group has), but I see on BRB page 121 that they can. My mistake - and it makes me dislike the Crusader even more, since it doesn't have the mobility advantage I thought it did.

Is adding the Melta essential? wouldn't you be limited in firing it and the assault cannon plus the addition flamestorm/hurricane weapons?

I mean if your moving 6" your just firing 2 weapons at full BS including Potms?

 Elgrun wrote:
Is adding the Melta essential? wouldn't you be limited in firing it and the assault cannon plus the addition flamestorm/hurricane weapons?

I mean if your moving 6" your just firing 2 weapons at full BS including Potms?

To consider it does add survivability to the remainder of your weapons.

 Elgrun wrote:
Is adding the Melta essential? wouldn't you be limited in firing it and the assault cannon plus the addition flamestorm/hurricane weapons?

I mean if your moving 6" your just firing 2 weapons at full BS including Potms?

It is certainly not essential. However it is not expensive, and both the LCR and LRR both struggle vs heavy armour. Having it the would allow the tank to move 6, and still fire both the assault cannon and the MM if it needed to.

Also if you shoot at flyers you are BS 1 anyway, so it's no problem in that regard.

Well i am black templar player as well, and i use crusader AND redeemer at 1750... What i like to do is run some crusaders or hammernators in LRC, (if latter is the choice just take 2x 5 scouts to sit on objectives)
And helbrecht(if i want the crusade of wrath) or just chaptermaster with th/shield eternal and artificer armor with honorguard(chapterbanner is a must, but that's not the topic)in a redeemer the reason i am going with 2 landraiders is because they are huge firemagnets and scouts can pin the guys with lascannons while landraider's payload disembarks... If you absolutely have to use one landraider, then use crusader ONLY if you have to save the heavy support choice, if you have it free then take redeemer.(another tip building a redeemer:put flamestormcannons in front of the acess points!!) GL