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I'm looking for something different then the Lysander-lite Hammer&Shield build, which made me consider why that was so effective and common.
What I decided was that it's the ability of your HQ to go toe to toe with MCs, Walkers and other Assault Beatsticks and survive if not win.

I then remembered the ancient 40k proverb "stab the shooty ones and shoot the stabby one" and decided against trying to compete directly in the close combat arms race.

Instead, I thought about how my assault elements could be better spent munching through enemy troops or fire support squads.

In that light, I'm considering whether I need anything more than a simple power weapon Captain.

Am I way off base or does my idea hold up?

Personally I think that a lightning claw or pair would do well for munching up soft squads. The rerolls to would would be nice. Give him a jump pack or bike and a squad to run with and he could do very well.

I think the idea of kitting out the captain with artificer armor and a storm shield is to make him survivable so as not to lose a "Slay the Warlord" VP.

But you can still give him a lightning claw or a nice gun to be effective against infantry.

 FirePainter wrote:
Personally I think that a lightning claw or pair would do well for munching up soft squads. The rerolls to would would be nice. Give him a jump pack or bike and a squad to run with and he could do very well.

Roughly what I was thinking.
I suppose Shred may be worth the 15 points for a second claw.
Still pretty cheap.

 minigun762 wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
Personally I think that a lightning claw or pair would do well for munching up soft squads. The rerolls to would would be nice. Give him a jump pack or bike and a squad to run with and he could do very well.

Roughly what I was thinking.
I suppose Shred may be worth the 15 points for a second claw.
Still pretty cheap.

I'd go PF/LC. Great versatility and you still get the +1 attack.

I second a claw. A simple power weapon falls flat if it's a maul or sword, former due to the AP4 and latter due to no strength modification. The claw, at least, will give re-rolls to wound and makes good use of the WS5. Alternatively, a power axe does the job but munches your initiative.

PanzerLeader wrote:

I'd go PF/LC. Great versatility and you still get the +1 attack.

I'm a fan of that build as well. Just might be a little pricey. That said, it's pretty amazing for what it does.

obsidiankatana wrote:Alternatively, a power axe does the job but munches your initiative.

I hadn't considered an Axe due to I1 but it actually makes a lot of sense... +1A over a Relic Blade and trades I5 for AP2.
I might have to consider AA with it though, to protect against AP3 attacks.

Depends whether or not you're hiding him in a squad as an "if they charge" alternative. In that scenario, eat the challenge on a sergeant and let Captain MxAxington go to town.

Teeth Of Terra is a good option. D3 extra attacks if you're outnumbered (you probably will be), AP3 for anything short of termies,

If you're looking to spend a bit more, the Armour Indomitus pairs well with the Primarch's Wrath, as you'll always get the full 5 S4 AP4 Shred shots. Throw in the Teeth and you've got my favourite Captain loadout.

 Paradigm wrote:
Teeth Of Terra is a good option. D3 extra attacks if you're outnumbered (you probably will be), AP3 for anything short of termies,

If you're looking to spend a bit more, the Armour Indomitus pairs well with the Primarch's Wrath, as you'll always get the full 5 S4 AP4 Shred shots. Throw in the Teeth and you've got my favourite Captain loadout.

I can see the value of ToT over a Relic Blade. Mostly for rampage to help make up for the lack of base attacks.
Still not sure on AP3 @I5 vs AP2@I1. Tough call.

Teeth of Terra also has strike down, pair with a storm shield and iron hands. He is survivable, stabby, and blows threw most armors and those he doesn't he attacks enough that should fail at least once.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Teeth Of Terra is a good option. D3 extra attacks if you're outnumbered (you probably will be), AP3 for anything short of termies,

If you're looking to spend a bit more, the Armour Indomitus pairs well with the Primarch's Wrath, as you'll always get the full 5 S4 AP4 Shred shots. Throw in the Teeth and you've got my favourite Captain loadout.

I can see the value of ToT over a Relic Blade. Mostly for rampage to help make up for the lack of base attacks.
Still not sure on AP3 @I5 vs AP2@I1. Tough call.

I go for the ToT, simply because the AP3 won't matter against most, and between IG allies, TH/SS termies and plasma tactical squads, I have AP2 covered in other areas.

When you're hunting shooting units, you probably don't need to worry too much about killing power. You should generally be avoiding units with 2+ saves unless you are facing Riptides (in which case, you are probably going to need the thunder-hammer guy). You want enough to reliably handle a sergeant-equivalent in a challenge, but not much more than that. A single lightning claw should do the trick, as would a relic blade or even a power-lance (you are going to give him a bike or a jump-pack for this role, which means you should be getting the charge pretty much all the time, making it better than a power-sword and usually better than a power-maul).

Spending too much on defensive options can be a trap too. You shouldn't be throwing this unit up against anything that can really threaten it, so spending a big chunk of points on protecting against things you aren't going to encounter is a bit wasteful. I'd be tempted to try bike, power-lance and nothing else. If you're worried about shooting attacks, then either add artificer armour or swap out your weapons for a shield and claw (or relic blade, if you are willing to pay extra to not have the ridiculous look of a shield and claw).

Frankly, this also depends on the squad this captain is sitting in. Whether or not he expects to get the charge and how the men around him can support him matters.

i.e. - I would take a power weapon and combi-weapon for receiving the charge, a relic-blade or twin claws for charging.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Frankly, this also depends on the squad this captain is sitting in. Whether or not he expects to get the charge and how the men around him can support him matters.

i.e. - I would take a power weapon and combi-weapon for receiving the charge, a relic-blade or twin claws for charging.

I'm considering pairing him with Command Squad Vets, SG Vets or Tactical/Crusaders. All short range units with an increased chance at getting charged.

 minigun762 wrote:
I'm considering pairing him with Command Squad Vets, SG Vets or Tactical/Crusaders. All short range units with an increased chance at getting charged.

So, you're planning on letting your opponent choose what to charge you with, but you don't want to splash out for a character that can handle whatever gets thrown at him? At that point, I think you might be better off just taking a librarian. Cheaper, helps the unit achieve it's goals, can threaten unit-leader type characters and dies to serious assault forces just like a lightweight captain.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I'm considering pairing him with Command Squad Vets, SG Vets or Tactical/Crusaders. All short range units with an increased chance at getting charged.

So, you're planning on letting your opponent choose what to charge you with, but you don't want to splash out for a character that can handle whatever gets thrown at him? At that point, I think you might be better off just taking a librarian. Cheaper, helps the unit achieve it's goals, can threaten unit-leader type characters and dies to serious assault forces just like a lightweight captain.

In this event, you have two routes to go. Load up the escort unit with ranged weapons keyed towards one target and the Captain for another (i.e. - flamers on the unit, AP2/3 on the Captain). This allows you to threaten two kinds of units, but runs the risk of one aspect or the other (shooting or CC) to fail and cost the unit its life. The second is two spend a few more points on the Captain to let him deal with a variety of targets so he can more reliably get the unit out of trouble.

Something akin to this for the second suggestion - AA, PF, ToT. Volume of attacks out of the ToT, high-strength AP2 from the fist, +1A regardless of profile since they're both specialist. Ballparks in five points more than Tigurius, so not the cheapest and not the most expensive. For the former example, I'd suggest low-AP on the squad and volume of attacks on the Captain. Either ToT and AA, or save 15pts and run with a power weapon.

Perfect is right though, to achieve flexibility you've gotta spend points.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:


Perfect is right though, to achieve flexibility you've gotta spend points.

Fair point.

Not what I want to hear but it's better than having it cost me a game.

Is a Relic Blade or ToT flexible enough or do I need AP2?

 minigun762 wrote:

Fair point.

Not what I want to hear but it's better than having it cost me a game.

Is a Relic Blade or ToT flexible enough or do I need AP2?

That's going to depend on the army you're facing. Some simply aren't capable of fielding 2+ units, some almost have a group or two of them. I would like to be ABLE to hurt a 2+ unit reliably with AP2, and the fist affords you the opportunity to ID certain targets as well. A Relic Blade, in this case, I would leave at home unless you're really pinching points. ToT does Relic Blade better in every way for not much more.

 minigun762 wrote:
Is a Relic Blade or ToT flexible enough or do I need AP2?

Are you going to be facing anything with a 2+ save that you have much hope of killing anyway? A captain isn't going to stop a unit of assault terminators, a mega-armour warboss, a tyrannofex or a phoenix lord by himself, no matter what weapon you give him. Really, the only opponents where AP 2 matters in an assault are likely to be other space marine characters and if they are fielding a unit suitable for smashing into the centre of your forces, chances are that they are prepared to handle a captain with a power axe or suchlike.

Concentrate on the threats which you can realistically hope to push back; opportunistic charges by units which are capable of assault but not highly specialised at it (tactical squads, shoota boyz, dire avengers) and weak assault specialists who rely on speed to pick out easy targets (most jump infantry and bikes). AP 3 should do fine for that role. I think that a lightning claw would be the most efficient choice, even if you don't want a shield, because 50% more wounds from Shred beats an extra attack from a pistol. Teeth of Terra would work too, but it's a bunch of points and the whole idea of this build is to save points.

Tooling up your commander to the point where he is more than a minor threat to dedicated heavy assault units means that you are spending a lot of points on something which your opponent can choose to avoid. If you are going to invest in a serious combat monster, you need to be using him aggressively to make the investment worthwhile. Characters used to bolster a unit are better off being fairly cheap and just good enough to deter assaults from cheap units. Force your opponent to use expensive builds if he wants to assault you, but keep your own costs low.

That's really the key element isn't it?

An expensive bodyguard HQ is a waste because it's passive.
An expensive assault HQ should be getting stuck in, not playing babysitter.