Arab Spring, Part 23 (Winter is Coming)

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**Breotan**

Here are a couple of news items coming out of Egypt that don't look so good for the Islamists in Egypt. Both say essentially the same thing, that 528 Morsi supporters have been sentenced to die and that the Muslim Brotherhood and the Obama administration are both "shocked".

Perhaps the Brotherhood could appeal to Obama and ask him to draw one of his famous "lines".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26712124

http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-court-sentences-529-morsi-supporters-death-081926018.html

BBC News (Middle East) wrote:Egypt court sentences 528 Morsi supporters to death

A court in Egypt has sentenced 528 supporters of ousted Islamist President Mohammed Morsi to death.

They were convicted of charges including murdering a policeman and attacks on people and property.

The group is among some 1,200 Muslim Brotherhood supporters on trial, including senior members.

Authorities have cracked down harshly on Islamists since Mr Morsi was removed by the military in July. Hundreds have been killed and thousands arrested.

They are expected to appeal.

The verdict now goes to Egypt's supreme religious authority, the Grand Mufti (a senior Islamic scholar), for approval or rejection.

Campaigners say that while death sentences are often handed down in Egypt, few have been carried out in recent years.

The final trial session will not be held until 28 April, so there is some time left before the sentence is confirmed and there will be time to appeal in that period, says the BBC's Orla Guerin in Cairo.

The Muslim Brotherhood has denounced death sentences and Washington expressed shock and concern.

In absentia

The court in Minya, south of the capital, Cairo, issued its ruling after only two sessions in which the defendants' lawyers complained they had no chance to present their case.

Lawyers have accused the presiding judge of "veering away from all legal norms" and denying justice to the accused, our correspondent adds.

They were convicted, among other charges, of the murder of the deputy commander of the Matay district police station in Minya.

Some 147 suspects were in court for the trial - the others were convicted in absentia, reports say.

The court also acquitted 16 other defendants.

Mr Morsi was ousted by the military last July following mass street protests against his government. He is facing four separate trials

There has since been a severe crackdown on his Muslim Brotherhood group, as well as on other activists seen as hostile to the military-backed interim government.

The Brotherhood has been declared a terrorist organisation and authorities have punished any public show of support for it.

A second group of 700 Morsi supporters is due to go on trial on Tuesday.

'Dictatorship'

The Muslim Brotherhood's spokesman in London, Abdullah el-Haddad, told the BBC the sentences showed that Egypt was now a dictatorship.

"It may be just a threat message and there will be appeals to the court and the decision of the court will change, but this is the new Egypt after the coup. This is the new dictatorship that [army chief and defence minister Field Marshal] Abdul Fattah al-Sisi is trying to establish."

Mr Haddad said the Muslim Brotherhood's general guide Mohammed Badie was among those convicted, though other reports say Mr Badie is only due in court on Tuesday.

The US government also questioned how the defendants could have had a fair trial in just two court sessions - one of which was Monday's sentencing.

"It sort of defies logic," said Marie Harf, deputy US State Department spokeswoman, adding that Washington was "deeply concerned" and "shocked".

"Obviously the defendants can appeal, but it simply does not seem possible that a fair review of evidence and testimony consistent with international standards could be accomplished with over 529 defendants in a two-day trial," she said.

Defence counsel Mohamed Tousson claimed the judge rushed to sentencing after being angered by a lawyer's request for his recusal at Saturday's opening hearing.

"He got very angry, and adjourned the trial for sentencing," Mr Tousson said, adding "It's a huge violation of defendants' rights."

Egypt's foreign ministry defended the court's handling of the trial, saying the sentences had been "issued by an independent court after careful study of the case".

Orla Guerin BBC News, Cairo wrote:Analysis

The speed of the case, and the severity of the outcome, are unprecedented in Egypt, according to legal sources.

In a case centred on the killing of a single police officer, more than 520 defendants have been sentenced to death, at a breathtaking pace.

The first hearing - on Saturday - was quickly adjourned. At Monday's second session, the mass death sentences were announced.

A spokesman for the banned Muslim Brotherhood said the verdict came from a "Kangaroo court". One human rights campaigner said judges had become a tool for taking revenge.

In spite of claims by officials about the independence of the judiciary, critics will see this verdict as part of the state's campaign to quash the Brotherhood.

The ruling is expected to be appealed and several legal experts are predicting a retrial.

**squidhills**

Well, if anyone had any doubts that the new government was going to be something other than Mubarak II Electric Boogaloo, this should end their delusions. This isn't going to end well at all.

**Relapse**

The only lines Obama appears to be good at are the lines of gak that he continually delivers.

**Jape**

The Egyptian military has a 60 year hate-on for the Muslim Brotherhood so the sentence isn't surprising. The 'cause' however it genuinely impressive in its awfulness.

**marv335**

The US isn't going to do so much as lift a finger.

The Saudis have a major hate on for the Muslim Brotherhood too, They've recently banned them and declared them a terrorist organisation.

The US Government aren't going to piss off the Saudis.

**djones520**

marv335 wrote:
The US isn't going to do so much as lift a finger.

The Saudis have a major hate on for the Muslim Brotherhood too, They've recently banned them and declared them a terrorist organisation.

The US Government aren't going to piss off the Saudis.

Several nations have, mostly Arab nations, and Russia surprisingly.

No western nations have, as of yet. If things continue this way, I could see that becoming a thing.

**Allod**

Unfair trials and death sentences are always lamentable.

However, I can not bring myself to see either the coup against Morsi or the following crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood as bad things. "Mubarak Reloaded" is infinitely preferable to anything the Salafists / Islamists (pick your term of choice) have to offer. Egypt returning to a zero-tolerance policy while Syria remains contested has set them back considerably, which is the best thing to happen in world politics in a while.

**Bran Dawri**

What Allod said, basically, although sentencing that many people to death for a bad choice in politics is deplorable.

**djones520**

Bran Dawri wrote:
What Allod said, basically, although sentencing that many people to death for a bad choice in politics is deplorable.

Yep. This will likely lead to violent reprisals. Maybe that's what the new government wants. Something to give them the justification they need to eradicate the organization.

**Grey Templar**

While the actions are not exactly nice, I can't say I'm sympathetic to the victims.

The Muslim Brotherhood is like the cheesy villain faction in a Command and Conquer game.

**Breotan**

The Muslim Brotherhood weren't exactly the nicest people to the guys they ousted from power.

**Allod**

djones520 wrote:

Yep. This will likely lead to violent reprisals. Maybe that's what the new government wants. Something to give them the justification they need to eradicate the organization.

They basically already did this. Most of those just sentenced to death are heads of their infrastructure; that being the political party, the soup kitchens, the moneylenders, the welfare offices, the schools, the hospitals. The "management" is gone now, and the people who did the work will mostly lack the skills or motivation to continue. Those that do can presumably always be seized later, when a new crop of leadership personalities has risen.

By doing this, the government has effectively severed the Brotherhood's connection to their power base - the masses of the poor.

Violent reprisals by the Brotherhood probably play no role at all in the decision to do this - that's the only thing you get from them anyway, it's almost their way of saying "Hi!".

**Howard A Treesong**

I'm planning to go to Egypt for a weeks holiday this summer so would prefer they cut back on the rioting and killing each other or the travel insurance will cost a packet.

**Frazzled**

Just think of it as a special bonus, the Dakka Dakka package.

**squidhills**

It may be worth pointing out that, while the Egyptians consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be dangerously ultra right-wing, the Saudis consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be dangerously moderate.

That's the same same group, mind you, and it is considered too far to the right in one country and not right-wing enough in another. The Saudi and Egyptian governments both dislike and are hostile to the Muslim Brotherhood, but for very different reasons.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

squidhills wrote:
It may be worth pointing out that, while the Egyptians consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be dangerously ultra right-wing, the Saudis consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be dangerously moderate.

That's the same same group, mind you, and it is considered too far to the right in one country and not right-wing enough in another. The Saudi and Egyptian governments both dislike and are hostile to the Muslim Brotherhood, but for very different reasons.

Dangerously moderate... only in Islam.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

No. We have that in the Free/Libre software movement too

.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Imagine the conversations that must go on in Saudi Police stations...

"This guy hasn't detonated any bombs or demanded Jihad, hes dangerously moderate, Sarge".

"Ok, I want him under 24 hour surveillance. The moment he says or does anything remotely peaceful and moderate, we'll nab him".

**Relapse**

Bran Dawri wrote:
What Allod said, basically, although sentencing that many people to death for a bad choice in politics is deplorable.

But would they really execute them or just let them stew for a few years in the clink? It seems that executing that many people would put almost anyone off that government.

**Frazzled**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Imagine the conversations that must go on in Saudi Police stations...

"This guy hasn't detonated any bombs or demanded Jihad, hes dangerously moderate, Sarge".

"Ok, I want him under 24 hour surveillance. The moment he says or does anything remotely peaceful and moderate, we'll nab him".

And people act like I'm crazy when I say put a wall up around the whole region and only open it when the entire region doesn't act like fething barbarians who have turned hate into high art that would make Genghis Khan blanch. Seriously, Mohammad and Jesus both must spend their entire day weeping at what humanity has become.

Where's freaking Noah and his ark when you need him? (sorry drunk posting here).

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Frazzled wrote:

Seriously, Mohammad and Jesus both must spend their entire day weeping at what humanity has become.

Well, Mohammad was a Warlord who massacred his enemies. And didn't Jesus say "I came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"?

So...probably not.

**djones520**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Seriously, Mohammad and Jesus both must spend their entire day weeping at what humanity has become.

Well, Mohammad was a Warlord who massacred his enemies. And didn't Jesus say "I came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"?

So...probably not.

I've never been a fan of when people quote a single line of scripture, as if it has specific context. That was one line of an entire "speech".

Now granted, what Matthews 10 was saying was hardly heart warming, it was not as if Jesus was justifying the use of violence on his foes. He was acknowledging that his message was going to cause strife. You'd never know that though, by people running around spouting that one line.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Imagine the conversations that must go on in Saudi Police stations...

"This guy hasn't detonated any bombs or demanded Jihad, hes dangerously moderate, Sarge".
"Ok, I want him under 24 hour surveillance. The moment he says or does anything remotely peaceful and moderate, we'll nab him".

Now, that is a total misrepresentation of what many radical Muslims believe in. It is much more about enforcing the rules on yourself and your family and neighbors than about detonating bombs abroad.
For an actual instance of “dangerous moderation” at work, let me quote you the tweets than put Hamza Kashgari in prison :
“On your birthday, I shall not bow to you. I shall not kiss your hand. Rather, I shall shake it as equals do, and smile at you as you smile at me. I shall speak to you as a friend, no more.”
“On your birthday, I find you wherever I turn. I will say that I have loved aspects of you, hated others, and could not understand many more.”
“On your birthday, I will say that I have loved the rebel in you, that you've always been a source of inspiration to me, and that I do not like the halos of divinity around you. I shall not pray for you.”
Emphasis entirely mine.
Hardly some extremist speech. Yet that sparked a fury of hate toward the “apostate” (I do not know if he actually is an apostate or not, and we will never know because if he was, he would not be allowed to say so).

Thinking of extremist Muslims in general and Islamists in particular as only terrorists is a huge mistake. It is because people outside of countries with a Muslim majority only suffer from the terrorists that we tend to forget about all the other extremists, but you cannot understand what happens in countries with a Muslim majority if you think this way. Or even what happens inside the Muslim communities in your own country.

Also, I was kidding when I talked about Free/Libre Software, but really, most extremists are really afraid of moderate people. You would rather not be only moderately communist if you were in any meaningful position in the communist party during communists revolution, you would rather not be only moderately patriotic during McCarthyism, …

Frazzled wrote:
And people act like I'm crazy when I say put a wall up around the whole region and only open it when the entire region doesn't act like fething barbarians who have turned hate into high art that would make Genghis Khan blanch.

Which region, exactly ? Do you know that there are atheists even in Saudi Arabia (even though they do not state it openly, for obvious reasons of death penalty for apostasy) ? Would you believe in letting them to their fate, by not only sealing them with their oppressor, but also forsaking any attempt to influence their society toward atheism, or at least tolerance toward minority's (non)religious sentiment ?
Personally, I have some Iranian friends and family, most of which drink alcohol, eat pork, and do not believe in the big bully in the sky with diamonds. I am pretty happy that they can come into France. And even for those Iranians that cannot go abroad, I am pretty sure denying them access to Los Angeles-based Iranian TV channels would be most unkind. Would you really deprive them of that, to leave them with only that ? You monster

!
The second video is obviously in no way an accurate representation of the average level of awesome of Iranian official TV

Frazzled wrote:
Seriously, Mohammad and Jesus both must spend their entire day weeping at what humanity has become.

Have you read any biography about Muhammad ? Not asking about Jesus because there is none without gaping hole big enough to fill in a bunch of WWII.
I can imagine both of them lamenting the gradual outlawing of slavery, personally.

**easysauce**

while I dont think these people are all nice... or that many of them are "innocent" (some might be I dont know)

it does bug me that over 500 people were sentenced to death without due process

almost sounds like a case of "shoot em all and let allah sort em out"

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Imagine the conversations that must go on in Saudi Police stations...

"This guy hasn't detonated any bombs or demanded Jihad, hes dangerously moderate, Sarge".
"Ok, I want him under 24 hour surveillance. The moment he says or does anything remotely peaceful and moderate, we'll nab him".

Now, that is a total misrepresentation of what many radical Muslims believe in. It is much more about enforcing the rules on yourself and your family and neighbors than about detonating bombs abroad.

TL;DR.

It was a joke, referring to the previous comment that "Saudi Arabia thinks Egypt is dangerously moderate".

**squidhills**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Imagine the conversations that must go on in Saudi Police stations...

"This guy hasn't detonated any bombs or demanded Jihad, hes dangerously moderate, Sarge".

"Ok, I want him under 24 hour surveillance. The moment he says or does anything remotely peaceful and moderate, we'll nab him".

While it may sound strange to western ears to hear a moderate regarded as "dangerously" moderate, it is actually the stance of the Saudi government. The reason they aren't considered "dangerously liberal" is because the left-wing of Saudi politics is tiny, weak, ineffective, and terrified of the conservatives. The MB is considered "dangerous" because they aren't liberal by even a Saudi definition, *and* they have a message that resonates with a lot of people in the Middle East. Liberals would never gain enough popular support to seriously threaten the Saudi government, but a "moderate" movement could find enough broad appeal to cause major headaches. That's what I meant by "dangerously moderate".

That having been said; I did like your joke

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

I know it was a joke. A joke can convey misconceptions as well as a serious answer, though

.

**Iron_Captain**

Frazzled wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Imagine the conversations that must go on in Saudi Police stations...

"This guy hasn't detonated any bombs or demanded Jihad, hes dangerously moderate, Sarge".

"Ok, I want him under 24 hour surveillance. The moment he says or does anything remotely peaceful and moderate, we'll nab him".

And people act like I'm crazy when I say put a wall up around the whole region and only open it when the entire region doesn't act like fething barbarians who have turned hate into high art that would make Genghis Khan blanch. Seriously, Mohammad and Jesus both must spend their entire day weeping at what humanity has become.

I don't think you are crazy, I fully agree with you. We should simply not bother or care about the whole area until they learn to behave