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Playing a game today we have a situation with multiple units on both sides. SM has a unit of assault terminators with Chapter Master attached and tactical marines, while the Nid player has a large unit of gaunts, a unit of gargoyles, and a Carnifex. The carnifex killed multiple terminators and during end of combat pile in was blocked from other gaunts /gargoyles to get into base to base with another model from the terminator unit. Is the Carnifex now considered unengaged and needs to roll for consolidation? Or does he just pile up against the gaunts/gargoyles waiting his turn to be able to get into base to base so he can attack?

Here is a rough setup of the before and after:

Terminator="T"
Tac Marine="t"
Chapter Master="CM"
Carnifex="C"
Gaunts="g"
Gargoyles="G"

Before attacks are made:
____________t
gTT TTTCMggt
CgGGGGggggt
GGG ggt


after attacks were made:

____________t
g TTTCMggt
CgGG ggggt
GGGG ggt

after pile in from gaunts/gargoyles/terminators

____________t
ggTT CMggt
C GGG Tggggt
GGG ggt

As you can see the Carnifex is blocked by gaunts/Gargolyes. How is this handled?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
well the spacing doesnt seem to work when I type this out, but hopefully the question makes sense. In muli combat what happens when one unit is no longer in base to base with an enemy unit after all pile in moves?

Page 28, top right corner. Second sentence of that paragraph:

If no models in a unit are in base contact with an enemy unit, and the combined Pile In moves of both sides are not enough for them to get back into base contact, then they can Consolidate instead.

I was surprised by this, as I was expecting to find that being within 2" of a friendly model would be enough (like it is when striking blows). It's also possible I'm mis-understanding this sentence, so we'll see what others chime in with.

A unit is not Locked in Combat if it doesn't have at least one model in the unit in base contact with an enemy unit (page 23 under "Who can fight").

 Quanar wrote:
Page 28, top right corner. Second sentence of that paragraph:

If no models in a unit are in base contact with an enemy unit, and the combined Pile In moves of both sides are not enough for them to get back into base contact, then they can Consolidate instead.

I was surprised by this, as I was expecting to find that being within 2" of a friendly model would be enough (like it is when striking blows). It's also possible I'm mis-understanding this sentence, so we'll see what others chime in with.

A unit is not Locked in Combat if it doesn't have at least one model in the unit in base contact with an enemy unit (page 23 under "Who can fight").

Agree with you. At least one model from the unit must be in base to base for the unit to be engaged. If the Fex can't make it into base to base, he becomes unengaged and may consolidate.

Could the Nid player pile in units with a lower initiative first?

These models must make a Pile In move, starting with the side whose turn it is. This is treated exactly like a start of Initiative step Pile In, as found on page 23.

looking at the details of Pile In on page 23

At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must rnake a Pile In move. A Pile In move is a 3" move that is performed in the following order:

the end of combat Pile In isnt an Initiative step so does this indeed mean that we can Pile in models in whatever order we want regardless of initiative?

Finally, lets talk about models that are "locked" and "engaged"

page 23 under Pile In


Second, any models Pile In if this will bring them to within 2" of a friendlv model in base contact with an enemy The key there is friendly model. It doesnt specify friendly model of the same unit.

Now lets look at "locked" on page 23


Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.

So the Carnifex is not considered "locked" as he is a unit of 1 and he is not in base to base

Now lets look at "engaged" also on page 23

a model is "engaged" in combat if: 2. During its Initiative step it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat.

So the Carnifex is within 2" of a friendly gaunt in combat, but this is not during its initiative but at the end of combat Pile In

Would we then determine that the Carnifex is considered to NOT be "locked" nor "engaged"? Or would you consider the Carnifex to be NOT "locked" but "engaged" since he is with in 2" of the friendly model gaunts? If he is considered to be "engaged" can he both throw and receive blows in combat even though he is not considered in base to base?

redleader187 wrote:
Could the Nid player pile in units with a lower initiative first?

These models must make a Pile In move, starting with the side whose turn it is. This is treated exactly like a start of Initiative step Pile In, as found on page 23.

looking at the details of Pile In on page 23

At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must rnake a Pile In move. A Pile In move is a 3" move that is performed in the following order:

the end of combat Pile In isnt an Initiative step so does this indeed mean that we can Pile in models in whatever order we want regardless of initiative?

Finally, lets talk about models that are "locked" and "engaged"

page 23 under Pile In


Second, any models Pile In if this will bring them to within 2" of a friendlv model in base contact with an enemy The key there is friendly model. It doesnt specify friendly model of the same unit.

Now lets look at "locked" on page 23


Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.

So the Carnifex is not considered "locked" as he is a unit of 1 and he is not in base to base

Now lets look at "engaged" also on page 23

a model is "engaged" in combat if: 2. During its Initiative step it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat.

So the Carnifex is within 2" of a friendly gaunt in combat, but this is not during its initiative but at the end of combat Pile In

Would we then determine that the Carnifex is considered to NOT be "locked" nor "engaged"? Or would you consider the Carnifex to be NOT "locked" but "engaged" since he is with in 2" of the friendly model gaunts? If he is considered to be "engaged" can he both throw and receive blows in combat even though he is not considered in base to base?

You need to read that whole paragraph in context. Here is the entire section: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot. At the start of each Initiative step, you must work out whether or not a model locked in combat is also engaged, as described below."

A unit must first be locked in combat before you are allowed to check which models are engaged. If the Carnifex is no longer in base to base at the end of the assault phase, he is no longer locked in combat and so cannot possibly still be engaged. The carnifex may consolidate and is no longer bound by the restrictions for being locked in combat. The tyranid player could elect to move the carnifex first during Pile In moves, but the Pile In move does not allow the carnifex to ignore intervening models so it is likely that he would be blocked by the gaunts from reaching base to base in the scenario presented.

I have to put forth this Frequently Asked Question Answer and raise the obvious question:
Why is the unit currently not engaged in this situation forbidden from consolidating to leave combat?
If it is the challenge itself: Why would this change the equation to prevent the first unit from leaving?

Q: Two of my units are involved in a multiple combat against an
enemy unit that has been reduced to a single character. If that
character is currently fighting in a challenge with a character
from one of my two units, is it possible for my unengaged unit to
consolidate and leave the combat? (p27)
A: No, though they do count for Moral Support re-rolls.

Because Challenges are a special case.

I just find it very curious that two near identical situations come to completely different conclusions, all because a single character decided to accept a challenge instead of reject it. I can think of one or two good reasons for why the rule might be written as such, but the terminology used within the Rules where not the best for this conclusion. After all, the Rule does state if one or more units are locked in combat then do X, but the very definition of locked in combat is impossible given that the challenge has a Rule that states the two challengers are countered as in base contact with each other only.

A situation which has more Rule support for 'not in base to base contact, consolidate' and the units are forbidden to consolidate.