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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
Globalisation is a good thing overall. The problem is that the fruits have not been fairly distributed.


It doesn't happen often, but I'm in complete agreement with you on this. Economists have been saying it for years.

However,who's going to change the system? And if you're at the top, why would you change something that works so well for you?

... ...


Strangely it is the EU, dominated by nations with social democratic governments, that has been closing in on the off-shore tax havens.

A fact which may not be unconnected with the anti-EU sentiment by certain sections of the UK power elite.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Ruthless Interrogator





The hills above Belfast

Bouncing Boredom. I sense a rare breed these days, a classical liberal. Your right the tories have abandoned their roots for corporate promises.
But I can’t agree with it because I don’t think things are that simple, but it’s hard to argue against in its simplicity.

By the way I employ Eastern European workers as I can’t get locals to do farm work. I live on the edge of a city and no one likes getting cold or dirty. The guys I have are just like me they thrive in the muck! They don’t get minimum wage they get £9/hr and I wish I could give more. I don’t live like a king, I do alright but I put out a substantial tonnage of product each year of high quality food and I work at times of the year up to 100 hour weeks. I get one holiday a year and that is often cut short having to come home because the weather has changed. My workers do 3 days on 4 days off on a cycle. They get sick pay, I don’t.

If your theory was correct locals would queue up to work here but they don’t, why? Because culture/life and all in between doesn’t follow Adam Smiths theories.

EAT - SLEEP - FARM - REPEAT  
   
Made in gb
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy



UK

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh dear.

Oh dear oh dear.

Corbyn will make a worse mess?

Kids not having to pay for university. Employees receiving at lead the same favour as their employers. A properly funded NHS. THE LIKES OF VODAFONE NOT SIMPLY LET OFF MULTI BILLION POUND TAX BILLS WILL THIS MADNESS NEVER END?????

Seriously. This is the real world calling. Ain’t nobody saying Corbyn’s plans will be free. Just an awful lot of people sick to the back teeth of having to carry the can for the lucky and the wealthy to give *them* low taxes, whils they continue to take the piss.

Where do you think the money for the kids education is going to come from? Taxation possibly, more likely borrowing, which is just taxation brought forward. Who will pay the bulk of this taxation? University graduates who earn higher incomes...

Besides, why shouldn't kids pay for their university education? It's an investment in themselves, the chance to get a job on much higher earnings than is typical for those without a degree. They absolutely should have to pay for their own degrees. Otherwise you're effectively asking your local binman to pay more tax just so someone else can go out and get a better job than him. That's not a progressive society, especially not when higher educational attainment at the pre-university level is strongly correlated with parental income (their education being the driving factor). That taken into consideration, you're than effectively asking the working class to pay more tax so kids from middle income families can get a free degree while the opportunities for the working class kids remain limited still. Again, not progressive.

I'm also guessing you've never employed someone. Employees have quite an array of rights. Once you're in the door, it's very hard for an employer to remove you unless you do something to warrant being removed.

The NHS? You understand that Corbyn's vision for the NHS is the same as Blair and Brown's; pump money into higher salaries (medical unions are pretty big, nurses union is huge, unions vote for - and pay into - Labour party), with little actual improved end product out the other end (because underpaid staff has virtually nothing to do with the problems facing the NHS).

As for Vodafone, what makes you think Corbyn will be any better at pinning them down then any previous government, blue or red? Every government comes to power promising to make companies pay more tax, then inevitably fails to do so, mainly because it's like trying to find an honest politician i.e. virtually impossible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:Strangely it is the EU, dominated by nations with social democratic governments, that has been closing in on the off-shore tax havens.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the EU, is most famous for his prior role as the Prime Minister of Luxembourg where he was instrumental in developing and continuing its status as a tax haven. He's one of the most corporate brown nosing politicians in all of Europe, as indeed are many in the EU. It's very difficult to find a single politician in any country who is truly opposed to tax havens, because most of them are using them themselves.


Knockagh wrote:Bouncing Boredom. I sense a rare breed these days, a classical liberal. Your right the tories have abandoned their roots for corporate promises.
But I can’t agree with it because I don’t think things are that simple, but it’s hard to argue against in its simplicity.

By the way I employ Eastern European workers as I can’t get locals to do farm work. I live on the edge of a city and no one likes getting cold or dirty. The guys I have are just like me they thrive in the muck! They don’t get minimum wage they get £9/hr and I wish I could give more. I don’t live like a king, I do alright but I put out a substantial tonnage of product each year of high quality food and I work at times of the year up to 100 hour weeks. I get one holiday a year and that is often cut short having to come home because the weather has changed. My workers do 3 days on 4 days off on a cycle. They get sick pay, I don’t.

If your theory was correct locals would queue up to work here but they don’t, why? Because culture/life and all in between doesn’t follow Adam Smiths theories.


I'm something of a classical liberal. I have to confess I don't slot into many of the economic groups easily because I tend to favour a bit from here and a bit from there, but CL would probably be the closest (and a lonely spot it is frequently )

I have to say, it's virtually impossible to find an agricultural job advertised. There's been a lot of investigative reports into the agencies that hire such workers and most of them go straight abroad, not least because they then fleece the poor souls with all manner of "finders deductions" etc until they reach the point that a lot of them are under the minimum wage. I would argue the counter to the "Brits don't like hard work" angle is that there are lots of Brits who work on building sites in all weathers, doing hard, physical labour. They have options though. They can work in a nice warm Tesco for minimum wage. They can get all manner of jobs that are fairly cushty for a bit more than that. Many eastern european workers lack such alternate avenues. It's Adam Smiths theory working exactly as predicted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 20:28:58


If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






you....you are aware that during austerity the Tories have borrowed more than every other government put together, yeah? For absolutely no national benefit, yeah? I mean, sure you can prove anything with facts???

Why should University be free? Social mobility. No child can help the family it’s born into. It’s simply not a choice. Let’s reward ability, not wealth.

If youngsters can go to Uni and get suitably qualified, there’s. National financial benefit right there. Less need to import skills, yeah? I mean, the right wing are always crying about migration...shame it’s currently necessary. Imagine if someone as hard pressed and poorly paid as a Nurse or Junior Doctor could qualify without a crippling debt higher than most of their parent’s mortgage?

It’s not about equality of outcome, just equality of opportunity. Or do you really, genuinely, sincerely believe the kid of your hypothetical binman should be put off achieving their full potential by the threat of ridiculous debt before they’ve actually live as an adult in real world!

And it’s not just funding University - it’s properly funding the state school system so there’s basically no difference beyond sheer snobbery twixt that and the private school system.

Why should employees be easy to fire? Why don’t they deserve protection? I consider myself incredibly privileged to not only have an excellent, nigh unthreatenanle career despite having the merest clutch of GCSE’s and a lot of life experience, but to know my bosses can’t simply make up a reason to sack me because. I’ve also worked for far, far too many arseholes. The sort to pay me the minimum wage whilst my efforts raked in thousands for them each and ever week? Do you see why I may well bear a grudge here! I have no issue with the Boss folk getting the cream - after all, without them I’d be earning nowt. But when they pay me the bare minimum whilst I bust a nut, week in, week out, doing a job that’s break them within a Month!

As for Corbyn’s vision of the NHS? Blair and Brown’s take was to employ ever greater levels of management. That’s where the money went. There’s a bs thought process that ‘to get the best, you have to pay the most’...utter bollocks. If you want to work in a naturalised industry, you’ve got to be willing to trade top dollar for the promise of not only increased job security, but also Doing The Right Thing. Not willing? Well, the private sector is right over there, go on. Let’s see how long you actually last with your piss poor work ethic.

Vodafone! Labour just needs to do the apparently unthinkable. Not only rip up and re-write the tax laws, but do so without consulting private tax companies because they’ve got this unsettling tendency to ensure there’s loophole that are there because they made sure they were?

Worst case scenario! All those companies refusing to pay their tax in the UK will feth off and not pay their tax somewhere else....


   
Made in gb
Ruthless Interrogator





The hills above Belfast

I didn’t mean to imply Brits don’t like hard work at all. Farm work is more a cultural thing I believe you need to be brought up around animals. I believe, in general, we are an exceptionally hard working nation that is far to hard on itself. I think we have lost our way and have fallen into overly Bureaucratic mess one that’s been compounded by the EU.

I genuinely believe in the UK and all it’s constituent people. I think we can have a bright future together if we can clear enough space in the mess to find a way forward. And I think we are starting on that road. I love our democracy and system of government, warts and all, and yes there are many. But I love it all, so that makes me first and foremost a unionist. love our islands and think we have great people here across all our nations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 20:43:42


EAT - SLEEP - FARM - REPEAT  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





bouncingboredom wrote:


Whirlwind wrote: Neo-liberalism can arguably be stated as the causes for such disasters as Grenfell (indirectly) as the state has allowed the watering down of legislation and allowing the controls to be decided by businesses which took the 'lowest reasonable cost' option.

The legislation is actually pretty tight (tighter than the EU requires I believe). It was the local government who approved the use of cladding that didn't meet the standard required in order to save themselves cash (tory council I think). So much for the benefits of state protection...


That's not really correct. In some areas legislation is tighter (for example import of animals) but they are generally for specific reasons (to keep the Country rabies free, apart from a few Tory backbenchers and current government we have managed to keep ourselves free of slavering lunatic animals). On the other hand in some areas we do the bare minimum to meet EU standards (e.g. some environmental legislation) and in some areas we've opted out (e.g. working time Directive). I'm not sure there is a full list of what we are 'better' at than the EU. For example in the case of Grenfell you are wrong. If we followed EU guidance then the cladding wouldn't have been used because it doesn't meet EU standards.

Our guidance basically limits how flammable materials can be but doesn't prescribe how to undertake those tests or ban materials outright. Hence it is left to industry to determine what is appropriate and reasonable. The were warnings before on this but the government delayed updating the rules.

It is also unreasonable to blame local councils. They have to procure services and have to decide in that procurement what standards to meet. However you cannot expect a procurement manager to know whether government guidance is suitable or not. That is not their expertise. As such the procurements will state that "they must meet the generals standards set out in X". If the bidding companies provide evidence that they meet those standards then I am not exactly sure what you are expecting them to do. They haven't decided to allow proposals that breach UK rules, quite the opposite, but they can't be expected to know the in's and outs of whether there are weaknesses in the tests. That is why we have standards so everyone doesn't have to be an expert in everything.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:


Strangely it is the EU, dominated by nations with social democratic governments, that has been closing in on the off-shore tax havens.

A fact which may not be unconnected with the anti-EU sentiment by certain sections of the UK power elite.


Like the Daily Fail and their owners?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/10 20:56:58


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

After Brexit we will have to comply with all the EU regulation, plus our own, plus the regulation of every country with which we co a trade deal.

It will be interesting to see if this is less regulation that EU regulation alone.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kilkrazy wrote:
After Brexit we will have to comply with all the EU regulation, plus our own, plus the regulation of every country with which we co a trade deal.

It will be interesting to see if this is less regulation that EU regulation alone.


For the majority of manufacturers that means complying with the most stringent. There are few companies big enough that can run different lines simply to make the most of different rules. Games Workshop aren't going to manufacturer resin miniatures with different amounts of chemical X in them they will just work to what they have to and still allow them to export (unless they want to leave the market completely, which may be the solution if the market in that country is small and the benefit from complying does not outweigh the costs of implementing it).

"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Will there be less regulation involved in determining which of all the different regulations is the most stringent, and ensuring that all the others are able to comply, or just using the one single regulation?


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

bouncingboredom wrote:
They absolutely should have to pay for their own degrees. Otherwise you're effectively asking your local binman to pay more tax just so someone else can go out and get a better job than him.


Yep. And he should be glad to do so. Because the society he lives in needs well educated people both for functional reasons - we need doctors, engineers, teachers - and for cultural reasons - a well educated society is a more fulfilling one to be a part of.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Knockagh wrote:
Farm work is more a cultural thing I believe you need to be brought up around animals.


It helps, that second of warning as the horse's ears go back can go a long way.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in gb
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy



UK

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
you....you are aware that during austerity the Tories have borrowed more than every other government put together, yeah? For absolutely no national benefit, yeah? I mean, sure you can prove anything with facts???

Why should University be free? Social mobility. No child can help the family it’s born into. It’s simply not a choice. Let’s reward ability, not wealth.

If youngsters can go to Uni and get suitably qualified, there’s. National financial benefit right there. Less need to import skills, yeah? I mean, the right wing are always crying about migration...shame it’s currently necessary. Imagine if someone as hard pressed and poorly paid as a Nurse or Junior Doctor could qualify without a crippling debt higher than most of their parent’s mortgage?

It’s not about equality of outcome, just equality of opportunity. Or do you really, genuinely, sincerely believe the kid of your hypothetical binman should be put off achieving their full potential by the threat of ridiculous debt before they’ve actually live as an adult in real world!

And it’s not just funding University - it’s properly funding the state school system so there’s basically no difference beyond sheer snobbery twixt that and the private school system.

Why should employees be easy to fire? Why don’t they deserve protection? I consider myself incredibly privileged to not only have an excellent, nigh unthreatenanle career despite having the merest clutch of GCSE’s and a lot of life experience, but to know my bosses can’t simply make up a reason to sack me because. I’ve also worked for far, far too many arseholes. The sort to pay me the minimum wage whilst my efforts raked in thousands for them each and ever week? Do you see why I may well bear a grudge here! I have no issue with the Boss folk getting the cream - after all, without them I’d be earning nowt. But when they pay me the bare minimum whilst I bust a nut, week in, week out, doing a job that’s break them within a Month!

As for Corbyn’s vision of the NHS? Blair and Brown’s take was to employ ever greater levels of management. That’s where the money went. There’s a bs thought process that ‘to get the best, you have to pay the most’...utter bollocks. If you want to work in a naturalised industry, you’ve got to be willing to trade top dollar for the promise of not only increased job security, but also Doing The Right Thing. Not willing? Well, the private sector is right over there, go on. Let’s see how long you actually last with your piss poor work ethic.

Vodafone! Labour just needs to do the apparently unthinkable. Not only rip up and re-write the tax laws, but do so without consulting private tax companies because they’ve got this unsettling tendency to ensure there’s loophole that are there because they made sure they were?

Worst case scenario! All those companies refusing to pay their tax in the UK will feth off and not pay their tax somewhere else....



You understand that when they came into government the national deficit was running at something like £90 billion, a massive portion of which was the interest payments on the prior debt accrued by Labour? They gradually began to to cut it down by what you and they call "austerity", but which was nothing of the sort. Even now the deficit is still in the region of £40-50 billion per year, and most of that is still paying off the old debts. I'm not a fan of the tories, but you can't really pin the inherited debt on them, as much as Labour is trying to. They could have done a lot more to bring it down, but even the little they did do was met with all manner of whining and crying about "austerity". It didn't help that rather than take some of the easier options they decided to go after disabled people for example, which is on their own heads.

If you're concerned about social mobility then you'll be pleased to know that since the introduction of higher tuition fees more people from poor backgrounds than ever before are going to university, largely because they're still able to access grants. Free university education has been proven to benefit the wealthiest more than the poorest, because the wealthiest are significantly more likely to be able to qualify educationally to take advantage of it. As such all it tends to do is widen the gap between the poor and the rich, especially as everyones taxes go up and the poorest are less able to bare the increased burden.

Migration should bee seen as a positive, not a negative, especially at the higher end (if you're using a Canada style points system then people who accrue above a certain number of points should ideally be granted automatic entry, with no maximum quotas). My current dentist is a lovely Nigerian lady who's several fold a better dentist than the previous English fella I had. People like her should not be shunned just because she's not born here. Also worth noting that Nurses and Doctors are not poorly paid by any reasonable economic measure. You could argue that morally they should earn more, or that their job is "worth" more, but by conventional pay standards they start on decent money and can rise to very, very good money.

I should imagine that the child of our hypothetical binman would welcome the opportunity to do a degree, potentially earn a lot more than his father, and pay it back in installments gladly as money well spent having reached a much higher level of income than his father. I know I would.

As for your job, perhaps you should seek an alternative if you're not happy? Or if wasn't such a ridiculous series of hoops to jump through, start your own business and become the boss? At which point you'd get to experience the delights of employing someone only to find out once their trial period is up that they're actually a lazy/incompetent who you now can't just bin on the spot because of the protections afforded to them. I'm not saying it's easy to find the balance between bad bosses and bad employees, but you'll have difficulty at this point in time convincing anyone who's a boss in any capacity that workers are unprotected.

I also think your view of the NHS is quite naive. There are lots of nurses and doctors who have switched either private, or double up on their own jobs by working for an agency, to the extent that some of them will clock off their job and then clock straight back on again, except now they're on agency time which is better paying. Not particularly altruistic and a big portion of the NHS's current salary woes. Blair and Brown were a veritable disaster for the NHS with their combination of gold plated salary handouts, ridiculous targets and the extensive use of PFI to hide government debt from the government books, palming it off onto the trusts balance sheet (and you thought the Tories were big on NHS privatisation... oh boy, just take a look back for a moment). Corbyn and McDonnell are shaping up to be much the same.

And you could rip up the tax laws, except it's not that easy. If it was super easy, someone would have done it by now, because the only thing governments like more than making money for themselves and their friends is to take other peoples money and spend it to make themselves look good. You don't think the tories would have jumped at the chance if it was super easy to just tax Google etc to pay down the deficit? Companies are very clever and they have lots of very clever people on speed dial. Even the tightest looking tax law would inevitably just hit small and medium companies the hardest, while the top companies used further loopholes (there's always loopholes) to dodge most of it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Knockagh wrote:I didn’t mean to imply Brits don’t like hard work at all. Farm work is more a cultural thing I believe you need to be brought up around animals. I believe, in general, we are an exceptionally hard working nation that is far to hard on itself. I think we have lost our way and have fallen into overly Bureaucratic mess one that’s been compounded by the EU.

I genuinely believe in the UK and all it’s constituent people. I think we can have a bright future together if we can clear enough space in the mess to find a way forward. And I think we are starting on that road. I love our democracy and system of government, warts and all, and yes there are many. But I love it all, so that makes me first and foremost a unionist. love our islands and think we have great people here across all our nations.

I agree it's something of a niche. It either interests you or it doesn't I suspect. But just by illustration I did a quick search for agricultural jobs, just a very basic one, and all bar one of the vacancies were for things like sales manager for x dairy etc. Only one job was an actual labouring one, and in the requirements it had "1 year of farmwork and 1 year of welding" (there's some machine repair involved). The salary offered is less than what just a competent welder alone could make in a year, let alone someone who also had additional experience. I do wonder if sometimes the agricultural sector shoots itself in the foot.

I also agree we have a bright future ahead as a nation, if we could just get rid of these blue and red lots in charge and find something a bit more... classically liberal

Whirlwind wrote:Our guidance basically limits how flammable materials can be but doesn't prescribe how to undertake those tests or ban materials outright. Hence it is left to industry to determine what is appropriate and reasonable. The were warnings before on this but the government delayed updating the rules.

It is also unreasonable to blame local councils. They have to procure services and have to decide in that procurement what standards to meet. However you cannot expect a procurement manager to know whether government guidance is suitable or not. That is not their expertise. As such the procurements will state that "they must meet the generals standards set out in X". If the bidding companies provide evidence that they meet those standards then I am not exactly sure what you are expecting them to do. They haven't decided to allow proposals that breach UK rules, quite the opposite, but they can't be expected to know the in's and outs of whether there are weaknesses in the tests. That is why we have standards so everyone doesn't have to be an expert in everything.

We have to be a little bit careful about what we say as this is part of an ongoing investigation. Suffice to say that there is a British standard for cladding in this use and the cladding in question did not meet that standard. It is alleged that the council knew this was this case but proceeded anyway in order to save money.

Kilkrazy wrote:After Brexit we will have to comply with all the EU regulation, plus our own, plus the regulation of every country with which we co a trade deal.

It will be interesting to see if this is less regulation that EU regulation alone.

Companies will only be required to meet the regulations that apply to them, i.e. very few businesses actually export goods and will have no need to meet EU standards, or anyone's but our own. Most regulation now is gradually shifted towards the international level, which is far more important than the EU and where the UK should focus post-brexit. Someone else also made the point that generally you'll work to the highest standard required, because that normally covers everyone. Also worth noting a quite significant number of producers outside the EU refuse to meet onerous EU standards and instead focus on other markets, which is precisely how the EU likes it.


nfe wrote:Yep. And he should be glad to do so. Because the society he lives in needs well educated people both for functional reasons - we need doctors, engineers, teachers - and for cultural reasons - a well educated society is a more fulfilling one to be a part of.

Well educated people can still become doctors, engineers etc. They can more than afford to pay for it themselves by bringing forward their future salary in the form of a loan to pay for their own education, leaving the binman to go about his business without having to pay additional taxes to fund their advancement. We can get doctors, engineers and teachers from other countries if needs be, the binman does not specifically require Johnny luckygenes to become a doctor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 21:31:09


If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






@ Knocknagh

I've probably driven past your farm you know.

I like the sound of three days on four days off but I imagine it's very hard work.

It's good to hear a farmer's perspective on these things. I'd also like to hear what the fishing industry thinks too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 21:38:04


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

bouncingboredom wrote:

nfe wrote:Yep. And he should be glad to do so. Because the society he lives in needs well educated people both for functional reasons - we need doctors, engineers, teachers - and for cultural reasons - a well educated society is a more fulfilling one to be a part of.

Well educated people can still become doctors, engineers etc. They can more than afford to pay for it themselves by bringing forward their future salary in the form of a loan to pay for their own education, leaving the binman to go about his business without having to pay additional taxes to fund their advancement.


Not all graduates get well paid jobs. University is not for getting jobs. It is for getting educated.

We can get doctors, engineers and teachers from other countries if needs be


We should probably just chuck all research funding then too, I guess. Someone at Harvard will get round to everything eventually.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 22:20:27


 
   
Made in gb
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy



UK

nfe wrote:
Not all graduates get well paid jobs. University is not for getting jobs. It is for getting educated.

So now you want the binman to pay for Johnny Luckygenes to go and spend 3 years studying the history of art? Or darts? What a productive use of that binman's tax money. I'll bet he's delighted to have nobly sacrificed some of his families income so a portion of the student body can go on a three year bender with little to show for it at the other end. University is primarily about acquiring specific knowledge in a specialist area, which in turn allows you to command a greater salary/fee due to the relatively rarity of your knowledge.

We should probably just chuck all research funding then too, I guess. Someone at Harvard will get round to everything eventually.

Ah yes Harvard, an institution that commands exorbitant fees in exchange for the chance at a first class eductation, while using the fees to fund first class research and using the endownment from their spin offs to fund free education for gifted but financially challenged students.

See, you're getting this classical economics thing

If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB 
   
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@ bouncingboredom

I was a binman.

I went to university too, but that Bachelors In Modern History ain't doing me much good though.
   
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Frostgrave

I honestly can't understand the justification for charging for uni in England. Lots never pay it back so the taxpayer picks up the tab after 30 years admin. Some of them pay tax anyway. Those that do pay it back earn enough to pay tax. So why not just cut out all the admin crap and pay it from tax directly?

You can still charge for foreigners and additional courses. That's what we do up here and it seems to work fine.
   
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Fixture of Dakka







I've talked about this about a half dozen times but long story short.

They don't really "pick up the tab" - it's just written off after 30 years. It is essentially a tax but it wasn't politically suitable to call it a tax, because the T word freaks people out.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




bouncingboredom wrote:
nfe wrote:
Not all graduates get well paid jobs. University is not for getting jobs. It is for getting educated.

So now you want the binman to pay for Johnny Luckygenes to go and spend 3 years studying the history of art? Or darts? What a productive use of that binman's tax money. I'll bet he's delighted to have nobly sacrificed some of his families income so a portion of the student body can go on a three year bender with little to show for it at the other end. University is primarily about acquiring specific knowledge in a specialist area, which in turn allows you to command a greater salary/fee due to the relatively rarity of your knowledge.


You have a point though. I spent four years getting my degree and have a pretty decent job, but my time in uni did sour me to an extent in terms of what it achieves. I feel it can be a bit of a con. I did not feel like the end product of a system of education. I felt like the resource, mined for four years for my damned college fees. I felt like a cog in a machine. Whose only purpose was To generate funding for pointless phDs. And I know enough about PhDs in science to know a lot of them fall down because of luck, rubbish supervisors and terrible faculty members in charge.

For all the good times I had in uni, I came out of it thinking uni isn't for everyone. In ways, it feels like a status symbol, especially for the parents - 'my so and so is off to uni studying such and such'. I felt that a lot of what was taught in uni could actually be taught other ways as well. Maybe it was me being somewhat soured on my experiences, but I have a lot of time for the trade/apprenticeship/'actual time served working in the real world' approach towards learning job skills. And while ITs (institutes of technologies) generally favoured a more hands on approach, I still felt there was too much focus on theory that was often to me, more than a bit pointless. I suppise it could be different in other courses to mind though, so I'll happily keep an opencast mind on it. I do also think there are plenty things taught in unis just for the sake of it, which are a bit pointless whose value is somewhat questionable. But this just my own personal POV

I suppose the tl;dr for me is that for all the status of unis, I think there are better ways of people learning jobcraft, and that going to uni shouldn't necessarily be held up as some kind of end goal. And like I said, I did uni, and I know plenty folks who didn't, and are actually doing quite a bit better than me.

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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ bouncingboredom

I was a binman.

I went to university too, but that Bachelors In Modern History ain't doing me much good though.



Even ones with seemingly obvious uses, like Computer Repair and Servicing, do not always segue into solid employment. Sometimes the skills you pick up outside school (sometimes, way outside school) are much better.


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The hills above Belfast

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Knocknagh

I've probably driven past your farm you know.

I like the sound of three days on four days off but I imagine it's very hard work.

It's good to hear a farmer's perspective on these things. I'd also like to hear what the fishing industry thinks too.


Are you a fellow northerner?

I confess I know very little about the fishing industry at all. They have been heavily critical of the EU and certainly have declined as an industry during the UKs membership. It’s another industry that has experienced a huge cultural disconnect with mainstream society.

EAT - SLEEP - FARM - REPEAT  
   
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 Knockagh wrote:


Are you a fellow northerner?

I confess I know very little about the fishing industry at all. They have been heavily critical of the EU and certainly have declined as an industry during the UKs membership. It’s another industry that has experienced a huge cultural disconnect with mainstream society.


Yes I am! From Belfast itself.

And members of the fishing industry had to deal with aul Bob Geldoff giving them the finger from his luxury yacht. That was an extra kick in the teeth.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




nfe wrote:
bouncingboredom wrote:
They absolutely should have to pay for their own degrees. Otherwise you're effectively asking your local binman to pay more tax just so someone else can go out and get a better job than him.


Yep. And he should be glad to do so. Because the society he lives in needs well educated people both for functional reasons - we need doctors, engineers, teachers - and for cultural reasons - a well educated society is a more fulfilling one to be a part of.
And if people high degrees get better jobs they also end up paying more taxes which in turn support the rest of economy. Cheap/free degrees just make it easier for people to choose freely instead of having to consider their financial circumstances the moment they become an adult. And that also protects them from whatever happens economically in the next few years while they are getting their degree. Imagine getting an expensive degree and finally leaving college right after the 2008 recession. You might end up fethed no matter how "in demand" your very expensive degree was about half a decade ago when you made your choice and had no idea you would graduate into that shitstorm.
   
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The hills above Belfast

 Future War Cultist wrote:
 Knockagh wrote:


Are you a fellow northerner?

I confess I know very little about the fishing industry at all. They have been heavily critical of the EU and certainly have declined as an industry during the UKs membership. It’s another industry that has experienced a huge cultural disconnect with mainstream society.


Yes I am! From Belfast itself.

And members of the fishing industry had to deal with aul Bob Geldoff giving them the finger from his luxury yacht. That was an extra kick in the teeth.


Nice one! We do get around, always suprised at where I meet fellow Norn Iron folk!

That Bob Geldoff is a bin lid

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 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ bouncingboredom

I was a binman.

I went to university too, but that Bachelors In Modern History ain't doing me much good though.



Even ones with seemingly obvious uses, like Computer Repair and Servicing,


Those skills belong in a trade school rather than university really.

   
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UK

Future War Cultist wrote:@ bouncingboredom

I was a binman.

I went to university too, but that Bachelors In Modern History ain't doing me much good though.

Should have gone to Harvard I'll never forget the binmen (and bin lady) that gave me a lift home once at about 5am while I was incredibly drunk. Absolute legends to a man (and a woman).


Herzlos wrote:I honestly can't understand the justification for charging for uni in England. Lots never pay it back so the taxpayer picks up the tab after 30 years admin. Some of them pay tax anyway. Those that do pay it back earn enough to pay tax. So why not just cut out all the admin crap and pay it from tax directly?

If done properly the students would be forced to take out a personal loan, with no government support. It would be down to the individuals (and likely their parents) to shop around and get the best deal, for example if the parents put down a deposit/security asset. The government could play a role by providing a limited number of grants for poorer students. Like all free market systems, this would heavily put the emphasis on the individual who's receving the most benefit to take personal responsibility for themselves (they're paying for it, they better knuckle down and get the best result they can. Likely they would attract a cheaper rate for having higher GCSE results etc).

Deadnight wrote:
You have a point though. I spent four years getting my degree and have a pretty decent job, but my time in uni did sour me to an extent in terms of what it achieves. I feel it can be a bit of a con. I did not feel like the end product of a system of education. I felt like the resource, mined for four years for my damned college fees. I felt like a cog in a machine. Whose only purpose was To generate funding for pointless phDs. And I know enough about PhDs in science to know a lot of them fall down because of luck, rubbish supervisors and terrible faculty members in charge.

For all the good times I had in uni, I came out of it thinking uni isn't for everyone. In ways, it feels like a status symbol, especially for the parents - 'my so and so is off to uni studying such and such'. I felt that a lot of what was taught in uni could actually be taught other ways as well. Maybe it was me being somewhat soured on my experiences, but I have a lot of time for the trade/apprenticeship/'actual time served working in the real world' approach towards learning job skills. And while ITs (institutes of technologies) generally favoured a more hands on approach, I still felt there was too much focus on theory that was often to me, more than a bit pointless. I suppise it could be different in other courses to mind though, so I'll happily keep an opencast mind on it. I do also think there are plenty things taught in unis just for the sake of it, which are a bit pointless whose value is somewhat questionable. But this just my own personal POV

I suppose the tl;dr for me is that for all the status of unis, I think there are better ways of people learning jobcraft, and that going to uni shouldn't necessarily be held up as some kind of end goal. And like I said, I did uni, and I know plenty folks who didn't, and are actually doing quite a bit better than me.

Lots of layers there; much, much to agree with.

University is not for everyone. You've hit the nail on the head in that it's almost become a status symbol now. There are graduate opportunities here in the UK, normally involving fast track to management in things like retail, where the only requirement to get onto the selection process is to have a degree. Doesn't matter what it is, just an assumption that someone with a degree will make a decent manager. Being a graduate in some capacity has literally become an end in and of itself. I suspect a number of people who are pushed into university life would do much better on a shorter technical course that was more immediately useful to them and was better suited to their learning objectives. This in turn would be one of the selling points of universities - the Harvard effect shall we say - where universities stand out from the crowd not just for their price, but also for the end results they produce.

There's no reason that uni's themselves couldn't offer a multitude of courses aside from just university degrees, such as offering night courses and the like to locals (nice little side earner which could keep admissions costs down). It's also a reality of university finance that many humanities courses (requiring mainly just a classroom and a tutor) are used to cover the cost of more expensive "practical" courses. Uncapped fees and students paying their own way would offer some institutions the option of offering lower cost degrees because they wouldn't be subsidising experiments with lasers and supercomputers. And if companies really feel there is a skills shortage in trades like engineering (which many do), then perhaps it's time for them to stop belly aching and actually do something about it. They have equipment, they have skilled personnel, and they have money. They could help the universities provide the courses, either through funding, subsidising specific individuals courses, offering up their people and facilities etc for practical learning.

BaronIveagh wrote:I confess I know very little about the fishing industry at all. They have been heavily critical of the EU and certainly have declined as an industry during the UKs membership. It’s another industry that has experienced a huge cultural disconnect with mainstream society.

Their industry has been decimated over the years. I live about 200 yards from the sea and we have one local fisherman left now, meanwhile there's a dutch trawler out there that owns decent chunk of UK fishing quotas and it takes them all back to Holland with it. Our waters have been chronically overfished and most of the value of that disappears to overseas boats. If correctly managed we could make big strides after brexit in recovering the fish population and giving the fishermen a little boost.

Mario wrote:And if people high degrees get better jobs they also end up paying more taxes which in turn support the rest of economy. Cheap/free degrees just make it easier for people to choose freely instead of having to consider their financial circumstances the moment they become an adult. And that also protects them from whatever happens economically in the next few years while they are getting their degree. Imagine getting an expensive degree and finally leaving college right after the 2008 recession. You might end up fethed no matter how "in demand" your very expensive degree was about half a decade ago when you made your choice and had no idea you would graduate into that shitstorm.

Or they could pay for their own degree, get the better job, and still pay their taxes like everyone else does. The risk/reward element of getting the degree is an inherent part of the calculation. It would likely mean less people with degrees, which would make those with them more valuable. It's also likely to mean that people seek out degrees that are more "employable" instead of the current top trending degrees in the UK which include the likes of psychology degrees and criminal pathology, neither of which is in particularly high demand but make up an oddly big chunk of all new graduate admissions.

The ebb and the flow of the market in operation.

If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB 
   
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The problem with the argument of the binman paying for education is that he doesn't. His taxes are a drop in the bucket. The ones raking in millions a year? It's the taxes on them that pays for education of the binman's kid. That's how it really works, which is why the wealthy are so desperate to get away from that. And when the wealthy are screwing over everyone else to benefit themselves, crashing the economy for everyone seems like a reasonable chance to take because most of everyone already lives there.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You can’t negotiate a better hand if your would be negotiating partner is the one with the better hand.

Slow may be the better idea. But the whole thing remains a daft decision.

In what world are we going to come out well of any trade negotiations? What exactly is our best hand? What precisely is it that we have that other nations and unions want that they can’t get from somewhere else and in greater quantity?

Blind optimism just isn’t going to cut it. Whether disastrously so or not, we’re the ones to get the poopy end of the Stick.

We’ll be negotiating with the EU to start, yes? And when they get us right over the barrel, do you think any other prospective trade partners are gonna seek anything less?


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Glasgow

bouncingboredom wrote:
nfe wrote:
Not all graduates get well paid jobs. University is not for getting jobs. It is for getting educated.

So now you want the binman to pay for Johnny Luckygenes to go and spend 3 years studying the history of art? Or darts? What a productive use of that binman's tax money


Yep. I'll cheerfully pay an extra £20 a month for anyone to study anything. I earn less that binmen. Additionally, a tiered system that makes value judgements about the worthiness of research fields is not helpful. People are excited about interdisciplinary research projects for a reason. All research has merit and frequent contributions are made across fields. Currently there's a lot of cross pollination between urban developmers, environmental scientists, human geographers, and archaeologists, for example.

I'll bet he's delighted to have nobly sacrificed some of his families income so a portion of the student body can go on a three year bender with little to show for it at the other end.


According to your arbitrary criteria.

University is primarily about acquiring specific knowledge in a specialist area,


Not at undergrad it isn't. It's about getting a vague background in a subject whilst learning how to conduct analysis and research in a given field. Some people get more than that, of course, but that's what's in it for the majority, and that's its purpose as conceived by nigh-on everyone teaching in anything but the most vocational courses - which frequently fail to get people jobs anyway, the predictability of the job market being what it is (people are working on that predictability, but paying any attention to it doesn't really for the current capitalist model, and they struggle to get sufficient funding for outreach and impact).

We should probably just chuck all research funding then too, I guess. Someone at Harvard will get round to everything eventually.

Ah yes Harvard, an institution that commands exorbitant fees in exchange for the chance at a first class eductation, while using the fees to fund first class research and using the endownment from their spin offs to fund free education for gifted but financially challenged students.


Talking past the point doesn't really move the conversation anywhere useful.
   
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Ruthless Interrogator





The hills above Belfast

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ bouncingboredom

I was a binman.

I went to university too, but that Bachelors In Modern History ain't doing me much good though.


I did the bins too. Many years ago when I was at uni, (some 25 odd years ago....) the depot at Ballyearl. I did Rathcoole, Ballyclare and Shore Road. It was a great job back then, if everybody on your lorry would start early, around 5am, you could be finished up for half 10 or 11 and you got paid for 8 hours no matter how long it took. I think things have changed now though you must do your 8 hours. Probably some EU regulation! (I joke)

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