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I have posted a list in the army list forum. At 1500 points it's essentially 4 Imperial knights. 2 of each. Could this work tactically? Heck, could it even be competitive? I'm thinking it can, here's my reasons why:

There is nothing they cannot deal with. With heavy stubbers (Of which there is 6 in my list) I can hit infantry. I know that's only 18 strength 4 shots, but the ability for the super heavy walker to split fire means they can engage MSU all at once. On top of which, most infantry units aren't going to pose any sort of a threat. Next is the rapid fire battlecannons. I have two of these, resulting in 4 strength 8 pie plates of doom for anything that is MEQ. Granted I can only engage 2 targets with these as I only have 2 paladin knights. But with 2 large blast templates per knight it means there is a strong possibility of doing some significant damage. Lastly is the thermal cannon. Only two of these. again able to engage entirely different targets and should have any form of armour trembling in its boots.

Lastly on the offensive front there is the gem in the crown in my opinion. Close combat. Not only does it have a strength D chainsword that will have O'vesa jumping away scared, but should someone attempt to bog any one of them down they have the additional ability to stomp all over them.

Simply put, I think there is nothing that they cannot deal with. Except of course, fliers. Fliers pose a problem as they have absolutely nothing that can deal with say a storm raven. But lets be honest, with 4 super heavy walkers on the field, I cant see stormraven lists causing all that many issues. Penetrating the walkers armour isn't all that easy, they have to hit it, and then need to get passed the void shields should they be pointing in the right direction. Then there is the armour penetrating roll itself and the walkers armour is pretty good all round, so you're needing a pretty impressive weapon to give you a high chance of causing a glancing or penetrating hit. And then you will only ever remove a single hull point unless you are that lucky individual that causes an explodes result. Let's face it, that's not going to be commonplace. So although fliers would be a nuisance, that I think is all they would be. The bonus being that the knights are scoring. So sit them on the objectives and let the annoying little bugs fly around.

Covered in that last paragraph is their survivability. Lets face it, it's pretty good. There is very little out there that is cause for concern. And the type of weapons that are cause for concern are normally sparse enough that they wont have the ability to remove 4 knights from play in a game. There is 24 hull points on the field, so with out a vehicle explodes result you need to cause 24 glancing or penetrating hits, including hitting, penetrating past AV 12 and avoiding the void shields.

So, I don't see a counter to the list. But am I missing something? Do you gus on dakka have strong counters to this list? Have you had experience facing knights and how do you deal with them? Or am I missing something serious?

I'd like to hear other peoples opinions, experiences and general thoughts?

Any list that can outscore you will win.
E.g.
Cron flyer spam
Foot Horde AM
Skyblight

Also, any list that routinely packs a lot of anti-armour will destroy you.
E.g.
Crons
AM
Skyblight
Flying Circus

Those are your main problems.

So, I don't see a counter to the list.

DE Haywire wyches as an example... If they can charge a Knight (with raiders and venoms it will be turn 2), they have good chances to kill it. Dont know if the special rules for scarabs do work on superheavies, but if so, they should be your main problem.

Another thing are Droppod Lists with lots of meltas...

MasterOfGaunts wrote:

So, I don't see a counter to the list.

DE Haywire wyches as an example... If they can charge a Knight (with raiders and venoms it will be turn 2), they have good chances to kill it. Dont know if the special rules for scarabs do work on superheavies, but if so, they should be your main problem.

Another thing are Droppod Lists with lots of meltas...

I've noticed people always bring up wyches as a common counter to Knights. They are very rare in competitive DE lists. They themselves are incredibly fragile as are their transports.

Drop pod and deepstrike lists though are a legitimate counter. Lots of melta coming in on rear armor and whatnot is bad news,

Necrons will absolutely eat you.

Any fliers are virtually immune to you.

Knights aren't as good in melee as people think. Stomp tends to just do some s6 ap4 hits, the melee attacks will squash guys only slightly faster than a tarpitted dreadnought, and the explosion when the knight falls is only really deadly in the center, which means it HAS to scatter on to you to hit you.

Just hopping in with some marines and a powerfist sarge, or boys with a PK nob presents a credible threat to a knight. And while AV 13 with a 4++ against shooting is good, I'd still rather have AV 14 instead. Maybe that's just because my knight went two full games before I EVER passed an ion field save, but whatevs.

With just 4 models, you won't really have a "battle-line" to speak of, so your opponent will be able to surround and hit unprotected sides of knights fairly easily. Any deep strike unit should have acres of open area to land in behind you.

Also, once you get guys in somewhat close to at least one knight, it becomes a lot sketchier to shoot at them. Battle cannon and melta shots can quite easily bring some pain to the knight player's own models.

They're tough, but not THAT tough. Two good melta hits can fry one even on average rolls for the d3. Heaven forbid your opponent has tank hunter IF devastators across the board.

The one point where I find my paladin amazing is breaking vehicles over his knee. I'm often annoyed at how much punishment I have to dish out to bust an average vehicle. (Meanwhile, my similar vehicles spontaneously combust when deployed.) The knight, however, virtually never fails to one-round anything not super-heavy.

Thanks dude. I want at least one, can you take a look at this list for my salamanders themed comp list?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/594405.page

MasterOfGaunts wrote:
. Dont know if the special rules for scarabs do work on superheavies, but if so, they should be your main problem.

They dont work on super heavies

Well I wouldnt play you without tailoring my army in advance. It would be complete douchebaggery to just show up with this list in a pick up game(all I play nowadays) unannounced.

That said, I would proxy all warriors for haywire wyches in my DE army. I would field a drop pod and flyers list with my 30k legion with a lot of meltas.

The knights aren't as tough as they first appear, not to say they wouldn't completely screw over some builds. Most take all comers should be adequate to deal with them; besides maybe Tyranids though they can take them if you build for it first.

Haywire wyches are quite common in competitive, but mainly in units of 5 in a Venom. While 5 isn't enough to outright kill a knight they will put 2/3 glances on it, then he will only kill 2 with his attacks so there is a chance they will survive the stomp to hold him up another turn.

Honestly, there is a reason that pure Knights don't win every tournement and that is because a Knight List isn't balanced. They are bad at scoring, with only 4 models (And some of them *will* die). They have *no* way to combat flyers or flying monstrous creatures. They cannot handle cover. They have no Psy-Defense other then base DtW. They cannot handle certain deathstars well (Farsight bomb for example). They cannot handle drop pod melta. They cannot handle Deepstrike Melta. Haywire melts them. Guass melts them.

The list goes on. If you want to build an army where your wins are based on rock, paper scissors be my guest. But know that for every game you wipe the floor with, another game you will utterly fail on objectives or be Melta's off the table turn 3.

Alex

It's fun to play and look at if painted. Not super tough as most lists at 1500 should be able to drop 3 of them.

Keep in mind they are scoring but not denial, so they can't contest and any unit next to objective will count as capturing objective not knight.

you can't really run them close because when one goes it nukes everything around. So it is easy to tie them up with blobs, stomp is nice but not overpowered.

Check out my salamanders list with one in? Let me know what you think.

stormravens will eat them for breakfast. the only AA you've got is stubbers, which can't hurt the fliers.

any list which expects yours will demolish it. sadly, most people won't play a list like this without tailoring for it, which means most of your games will start with you on the back foot.

any fearless blobs with hidden powerklaws or equivalent will ruin you, as you'll need at least 2 rounds of combat to stand a chance of clearing them, as stomp only hits models in base contact not all the ones locked in the combat. any unit that has a decent CC output will do the business, so haywire grenades or meltabombs will ruin your day. orks also have the joys of deffrollas to throw at you, and the much misunderestimated tankbustas will have a field day chucking bomm squigs at you & firing rokkits. eldar would probably just surround you on the first turn, then pick shots at the weaker armours in their next, after you've turned to meet them.


long story short, people will be irritated at your overpowered list until they see how easily their army can counter it.

Ok. There's some uber interesting points here from people that I really appreciate. Perhaps they're not as Op as I first thought. I did wonder if I was missing something and it seems I was missing quite a lot.

It does seem that 4 of them aren't at all viable. So I urge you guys to take a look at my salamanders list where I have attempted to squeeze one in. I really want to take one of these dudes to upset any kind of star and especially tau-tide lists.

Col. Dash wrote:
Well I wouldnt play you without tailoring my army in advance. It would be complete douchebaggery to just show up with this list in a pick up game(all I play nowadays) unannounced.

That said, I would proxy all warriors for haywire wyches in my DE army. I would field a drop pod and flyers list with my 30k legion with a lot of meltas.

Its a bit douchbaggy to list tailor to hard stomp anyone. As a Knight player, I'd decline if someone decided to list tailor on me to the degree you mentioned. There is never a need to be a dick.

SJ

Wow all this advice is from people who obviously have not played against knights. It is very hard to kill them from shooting due to the 4+ invul.

Even a tailored list will have a very tough time killing 4 knights at 1500 points. They just eat through squads with their stomps, not two mention their shooting weapons which stack on wounds as well.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is a reason knights have the highest win percentage on ToF.

 herpguy wrote:
Wow all this advice is from people who obviously have not played against knights. It is very hard to kill them from shooting due to the 4+ invul.

Even a tailored list will have a very tough time killing 4 knights at 1500 points. They just eat through squads with their stomps, not two mention their shooting weapons which stack on wounds as well.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is a reason knights have the highest win percentage on ToF.

Flycrons aren't really worried by knights.

Or flying circus Daemons/Tyranids.

I'm not too worried while running any flier spam list so long as it has sufficient anti-tank capacity, at least enough to make Knights sweat if I can get at their rear armor.

Now I am concerned for my ground pounding monster mash lists and wall of tanks lists.

 herpguy wrote:

There is a reason knights have the highest win percentage on ToF.

Yes, there is. It is also the reason why they don't win the entire thing. They are a very Rock, Paper, Scissor type list. Either you can counter them, or you can't. Either you win big, or you loose within the first 3 turns. This is why people also don't like Knights in pick up games, they are totally different to most other armies and it is simply, if you didn't bring enough of the right kind of AV you lose, if you did, i lose. I have played Knights before, in both competitive and non competitive scenario's. I play Dark Eldar/Eldar so i had enough lances and Haywire to down the Knights while they had real problems getting around me Cover Saves. Charge you say? Those Haywire wyches i mentioned, while not great at killing knights, are great deterrents for getting to close. So all i had to do was move the Ravagers to target different sides while the Crimson Hunter flies around unopposed. Although that was against my Tourny ready list, another time i would of got stomped flat by Knights/Space Wolves if i didn't make a Charge with Urien into a Knight. He had 4 attacks which would hit on 4's and Clone Field negated 3 a turn for 2 turns

What do you mean not winning the entire thing? Which major tournament has happened where Knights are allowed?

Ok it's 4++ on one side, flank them with threats and won't have much concerns. They are not very scary but they are not push overs either. I have 4 knights.

As pointed many lists won't stand a chance and many will just walk over them. They are a counter list. If you are in a tourney not prepared for a av13-14 wall than you will win no problem. Especially now with tank commander lists, you will find more meltas coming back. knights can't handle av fliers or deepstriking lists. Fmc, is a decently even matched.

1.5k is a hard point to fit in enough to fight 4 knights, but knights have to win by tabling, not an easy strategy. Bikes can just dance circles taking hits then grab win at the end. Reserve 2 troop choices come in late take the objectives you win. This is not a hard list just change your normal play style to survive and you can win more often than not.

Lastly spread out, knights are fast but if you force them into a chase you can survive and win. As long as you can take out 2 knights you should have a list strong enough to compete.

A few mistakes I've seen here:

Entropic Strike DOES affect superheavies, but only on a 6 rather than a 4+.

Stomp can hit units outside of B2B, but the first stomp attack cannot.

Meltas to rear armor are not too much of a threat, considering you need twice as many to get through as against any other vehicle/unit (4+ inv). Further, a Knight with 1HP is as deadly as a Knight with 6HP. They do not deteriorate in firepower unless they are dead.

IF Devastators are hardly threatening to Knights. Assume a 4x Las squad - three hit, ~1.66 pens, reduced to ~.83 via Ion if it's directed that way. Even three such squads would be hard pressed to bring one down in a round of shooting.

For any army packing dedicated AV, THAT is your target for that army. Shove four Knight as that AV and nuke it. Then freely stomp your giant metallic self around.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
A few mistakes I've seen here:

Entropic Strike DOES affect superheavies, but only on a 6 rather than a 4+.

Stomp can hit units outside of B2B, but the first stomp attack cannot.

Meltas to rear armor are not too much of a threat, considering you need twice as many to get through as against any other vehicle/unit (4+ inv). Further, a Knight with 1HP is as deadly as a Knight with 6HP. They do not deteriorate in firepower unless they are dead.

IF Devastators are hardly threatening to Knights. Assume a 4x Las squad - three hit, ~1.66 pens, reduced to ~.83 via Ion if it's directed that way. Even three such squads would be hard pressed to bring one down in a round of shooting.

For any army packing dedicated AV, THAT is your target for that army. Shove four Knight as that AV and nuke it. Then freely stomp your giant metallic self around.

This pretty much sums it up. At 1500 it will be very hard for anybody to be able to counter Knights.

 herpguy wrote:

This pretty much sums it up. At 1500 it will be very hard for anybody to be able to counter Knights.

Not entirely accurate. Well rounded lists present a threat, but more often than not your solution is to not fight the Knights. Score around them, they cannot contest. You can't outrun them very easily with a 12'' move, but you can pick which units engage them with careful positioning. 3+ armor is the sweet spot, a ten man tac squad lasts a decent amount of time against them. If you are trying to kill a Knight, dedicate to it. Don't let it escape and bring it down in two turns minimum.

Air units are your biggest threat. Unless it's a groundable MC, it is immune to you.

1. Pick a knight. Preferably one on a flank
2. Focus on it til it dies.
3. Leave a snackrifice unit right in the way of the next-closest knight. Use terrain. Their blasts don't ignore cover. (Any unit that can't hurt a knight in some way, or fearlessly hold their ground as a tarpit even through stomps, is a snackrifice unit.)
4. Repeat until game is almost over, then snag objectives

You can spot sub-par players easily when a knight army is around. Look at the end of the game: if a bunch of knights have a few hull points of damage, they just got done stomping a sub-par player. A good player playing against knights will almost always leave the game with only a single knight hurt, and any others dead or untouched.

That said, purge the alien is a pretty tragic situation to be in against IK. But I think that's because purge the alien is a terribly designed scenario. 3rd edition's version of kill points was better in every way.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Well I wouldnt play you without tailoring my army in advance. It would be complete douchebaggery to just show up with this list in a pick up game(all I play nowadays) unannounced.

That said, I would proxy all warriors for haywire wyches in my DE army. I would field a drop pod and flyers list with my 30k legion with a lot of meltas.

Its a bit douchbaggy to list tailor to hard stomp anyone. As a Knight player, I'd decline if someone decided to list tailor on me to the degree you mentioned. There is never a need to be a dick.

SJ

Playing 1500 with 4 knights in a pick up game, is being a dick.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
A few mistakes I've seen here:

Entropic Strike DOES affect superheavies, but only on a 6 rather than a 4+.

Stomp can hit units outside of B2B, but the first stomp attack cannot.

Meltas to rear armor are not too much of a threat, considering you need twice as many to get through as against any other vehicle/unit (4+ inv). Further, a Knight with 1HP is as deadly as a Knight with 6HP. They do not deteriorate in firepower unless they are dead.

IF Devastators are hardly threatening to Knights. Assume a 4x Las squad - three hit, ~1.66 pens, reduced to ~.83 via Ion if it's directed that way. Even three such squads would be hard pressed to bring one down in a round of shooting.

For any army packing dedicated AV, THAT is your target for that army. Shove four Knight as that AV and nuke it. Then freely stomp your giant metallic self around.

Entropic strike has no effect on superheavy vehicles due to the Invincible Behemoth special rule. Including knights, so scarabs do nothing to impede them and just get stomped off the table. I agree with everything else you said, a smart knight player will weigh the risks of allowing the non-dedicated AT live while blowing away key targets with shooting/combat. There hasn't been a major tournament allowing Iknights yet and I'm expecting them to be a heavy meta influencer at NOVA and like events later in the year.

Extremely important weakness of knight was missed, 4++ is only available,on one face during shooting phase.

List is not that brutal you can flank shots so some can bypass shield.

thanatos67 wrote:

Entropic strike has no effect on superheavy vehicles due to the Invincible Behemoth special rule. Including knights, so scarabs do nothing to impede them and just get stomped off the table. I agree with everything else you said, a smart knight player will weigh the risks of allowing the non-dedicated AT live while blowing away key targets with shooting/combat. There hasn't been a major tournament allowing Iknights yet and I'm expecting them to be a heavy meta influencer at NOVA and like events later in the year.

Must have miss-remembered that, I just double checked and you are correct - Entropic Strike does nothing.

As has been said several times above, most 1500 point armies cannot kill 4 knights. However, I would wager that quite a few of those lists can kill 2. Since most BRB missions have at minimum 3 objectives, the goal when facing knights is to kill enough to give you an easy plurality on objectives.

How do crons pack anti-tank? They lack anything above s7 and mostly rely on tesla and rending to do hull points.