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The line that really stood out to me in this, even over statements that it can't be verified was the line that says:

"Whether this is actually factual or not is not the issue"

That's some true upfront journalism right there!

http://janmorganmedia.com/2014/05/girls-fined-wearing-swimsuits-offend-muslims/#7rUHyTxdd9hBCr4z.99

You laugh, but the threat of this is very real.

Political correctness tends to get overextended in the case of Islam and they get away with things.

Relapse wrote:
The line that really stood out to me in this, even over statements that it can't be verified was the line that says:

"Whether this is actually factual or not is not the issue"

That's some true upfront journalism right there!

I think South Park said it best.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Political correctness tends to get overextended in the case of Islam and they get away with things.

I agree wholly with this. I think that Islam gets special protection from our media; and the unstated elephant in the room is always that it gets so because some of it's adherent's are substantially more inclined than other religions to behead people when offended. Our media is especially craven in how we bow to this reality.

That's some strong conspiracy theory BS in there.

I often wonder if the people who write this kind of thing have ever cracked open a history book for more than five minutes. Unless they're really that dumb, they should have realized that things just don't work that way.

I gotta side with the Hats (shudder) on this one. I've heard the horror stories. I see this site. I never hear this kind of stuff from anywhere that I don't also expect to be talking about contrails. I'll have to investigate it deeper later, but this site gives me that vibe.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You laugh, but the threat of this is very real.

Political correctness tends to get overextended in the case of Islam and they get away with things.

I laugh when an article says it doesn't matter if the story being reported is true or not. I think everyone's seen enough of my opinions to know where my sympathies are, but this article, saying the story is hard to verify and it doesn't matter anyway, undercuts other articles that may be true.

Like that Muslims are the only ones filing frivolous law suits (Hahaha. Hahahahahahahaha). Or that they're coming to a new country to take it over and turn it into the country they just went though all the trials of immigration to get out of. Given that the last few years have seen constant internal conflict in several Middle Eastern states, you'd think no one would buy into this Muslim hive mind BS anymore where they all want to make us them because they're all the same. It's just so stupid.

Jews have been putting up with the same crap for centuries but normally no one can get away with it but that's okay, Muslims get special protection from the PC crowd apparently... which of course brings up that most of the people who buy into all the Zionist crap are the same people pushing the Muslims want to take over our minds crap. Both deserve the same level of credibility (none).

 LordofHats wrote:
Like that Muslims are the only ones filing frivolous law suits (Hahaha. Hahahahahahahaha). Or that they're coming to a new country to take it over and turn it into the country they just went though all the trials of immigration to get out of. Given that the last few years have seen constant internal conflict in several Middle Eastern states, you'd think no one would buy into this Muslim hive mind BS anymore where they all want to make us them because they're all the same. It's just so stupid.

Jews have been putting up with the same crap for centuries but normally no one can get away with it but that's okay, Muslims get special protection from the PC crowd apparently... which of course brings up that most of the people who buy into all the Zionist crap are the same people pushing the Muslims want to take over our minds crap. Bother deserve the same level of credibility (none).

Well, to be fair, ALL fundamentalism is dangerous and it should be both taught how to recognize and resist at every step. Consider what the local established fundies would do here.

That doesn't mean I think we should be lynchin' people 'cause they be different than me though. And I'm still skeptical of this story.

There's a difference between acknowledging the dangers of extremism and extremist groups and articles like the above, which subscribe to all Muslims extremist views via bizarre logical loops that rely on patent ignorance to be even remotely believable. It's absurdism at it's finest

Well, I'm not claiming all Muslims are extremists either, but they're the group du jour.

Like I said, or at least implied, there are plenty just as dangerous (if not more) closer to home.

I actually did see this story on a more "well known" website than the one in the OP. Apparently, the beach in question is a private beach owned by a hotel resort. It's located in an Italian town that basically lives solely as a vacation spot, and apparently one that is heavily utilized by wealthy Arab families on their "spring break" or whatever other holidays they go out on.

I would assume that if the story really is true, it boils down to this: the Arabs in this situation had far more money than the American tourists (or, they bring more funds into the town than Americans, so will get more preferential treatment)

I don't doubt you, but could you provide the link? I would like to learn more.

If the event in question actually happened, its a demonstration of issues with an individual judge or if we must reach further, the Italian justice system. It has no relevance to Islam at all.

The greatest danger to America from religion is from Christianity not Islam. Fundamentalist Muslims may kill a few people now and then but its a minor issue which can be dealt with on a case to case basis. The danger posed by Fundamentalist Christians in this country is far more real. There are far more Christian zealots than Muslim zealots and they have far more influence and do far more damage to our society. While Islam is understood to be a foreign actor, Christianity is far more native to this country, and as a result it is more difficult for the people to differentiate between our secular liberal beliefs and the Christian fundamentalist subversives who have been trying to destroy the values of our republic since its inception.

Perhaps in some parts of Europe Muslims are more of a threat, but that's only because of the now weak Christian influences in those societies. In the Muslim world, yes, obviously Islam is the greater danger. In Pakistan people should be worried about Islam. In Indonesia people should be worried about Islam. In Egypt people should be worried about Islam. In Turkey people should be worried about Islam. Not in Italy. Not in Britain. Not in the US.

The greatest danger to America from religion is from Christianity not Islam.

Because they've been making great progress amiright? What with Creationism in scho- Well there's the ban on aborti- Well DOMA is still in place right?

In Turkey people should be worried about Islam.

Turkey is 96% Muslim.

A beach in Turkey;



But why should we let facts get in the way of good old fashion American ignorance.

 Ouze wrote:
I agree wholly with this. I think that Islam gets special protection from our media; and the unstated elephant in the room is always that it gets so because some of it's adherent's are substantially more inclined than other religions to behead people when offended. Our media is especially craven in how we bow to this reality.

True, but I'd argue that there is also a very powerful anti-Islam presence, that will attempt to justify fears by talking about threats that don't actually exist. The OP's thread is a perfect example of it, where the article straight up doesn't care if the rumour is true, it sounds like the kind of thing the author has come to believe about Islam and that's good enough.

While it might be tempting to see both the PC crowd and the anti-Islam crowd as opposite sides of the same coin, offsetting each other, I don't think it really works that way. Instead both groups just increase the noise and nonsense surrounding any attempt at properly discussing the issue, and greatly reduce the amount of understanding about Islam in the greater community.

It'd be awesome if both groups would just shut up and let sensible people talk about the issue, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 LordofHats wrote:

Turkey is 96% Muslim.

A beach in Turkey;



But why should we let facts get in the way of good old fashion American ignorance.

MY GOD! They're censoring it! It's already started!



I'm going to bed.

It's not true. It was a satire piece for a blog that was afterwards re-blogged by many who did not get the "joke".

Of course, the target of this satire is a very real movement in Europe to cater to the muslim fundamentalists. There are far more worrying real court decisions, like the infamous example from Germany where a husband was allowed to abduct his wife or a recent one from Austria where an adult assaulter got tried as a youth because sexual violence is "culturally inherent" to muslims, so he wasn't really fully responsible for his actions.

There seem to be two major problems with handling this problem:

1) The artificial separation of muslim fundamentalists (who in turn greatly overlap with muslim conservatives) and "extremists". These are not two distinct groups, like regular American Church-goers who believe in Creationism and Westboro lunatics, but rather a single movement. Only a handful of individuals in this group are actually insane enough to strap a belt of explosives around their waist, but they do not have a differing world view or "moral compass" compared to the "peaceful" fundamentalists. Those fundamentalists might not be acting to aid the "global jihad", but they usually fully condone it.

2) When the non-muslims paint the fundamentalists as harmless, the normal, moderate muslims continue to lose their influence on their own communities, which was feeble enough before, as they are the ones who remember twice a year that they ought to go to the mosque because a holiday is coming up. The fundamentalists are still a minority, but one that is growing so influential with the "visible" muslims that it's beginning to look as if they were the majority. This minority is sponsored heavily with Saudi or, in the case of Austria for example, Turkish funds in a push to "outspend" the non-wahhabi muslim communities and bag as much of the muslim youth in the process as possible. Also, when the fundamentalist minority makes a new attack on "western" lifestyle, laws or values, members of the moderate majority usually DO raise their voice to warn against it, but governments, NGOs and media do not want to listen, because it would make things so much more complicated than simply appeasing the fundamentalists and telling everyone who has a problem with that to shut his islamophobic trap.

No, Islam is not the problem - I experienced a wonderful, laid-back and genuinely friendly Islam in Upper Egypt, Cairo or the Canal Zone. However, it will not do to continue to ignore the problems the wahhabi movement is causing almost everywhere in the world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:

Turkey is 96% Muslim.

A beach in Turkey;



But why should we let facts get in the way of good old fashion American ignorance.

Yes, Turkey was a bastion of enlightened Islam. Gül and Erdogan are making short work of it, though, even if it's not an overnight thing like the Islamic Revolution was in Iran. Read up on what they're up to, or read a few Turkish blogs, or even write an e-mail to one of my Turkish friends, it'll be an eye-opener for you. (And I don't mean that in a condescending manner at all, as I only keep myself informed *because* of the aforementioned friends.)

Yes, Turkey was a bastion of enlightened Islam. Gül and Erdogan are making short work of it, though, even if it's not an overnight thing like the Islamic Revolution was in Iran. Read up on what they're up to, or read a few Turkish blogs, or even write an e-mail to one of my Turkish friends, it'll be an eye-opener for you. (And I don't mean that in a condescending manner at all, as I only keep myself informed *because* of the aforementioned friends.)

I'm fine with people acknowledging that the social and political landscape of the Muslim world is like any other; complex with differing opinions on all sides. But articles like the above don't care about that reality. They only care about the fantasy where all Muslims are out to take our freedom (TM).

Sure, as I said, the original story was satire, and some nutjob just swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

EDIT: You know that the author doesn't know what he's talking about when he keeps harping on the Muslim Brotherhood as if they were some kind of saturday-morning-cartoon group of super villains while not even specifying whether he means the Egyptian political organization or the "intellectual club" of the same name and heritage, both of which have neither the means nor desire to infiltrate the west.

I was merely pointing out that Turkey is kind of a bad example for a moderate Islam that is based on popular consensus. Politically speaking, said moderate Islam is losing the war there.

 Allod wrote:
No, Islam is not the problem - I experienced a wonderful, laid-back and genuinely friendly Islam in Upper Egypt, Cairo or the Canal Zone.

You were not an ex-Muslim apostate turned militant atheist, were you ?
There are a bunch of Muslim-majority countries that do not implement Sharia. Does it not prove that even Muslims know that Islam is the problem, even if they do not acknowledge it, even to themselves ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Allod wrote:
I was merely pointing out that Turkey is kind of a bad example for a moderate Islam that is based on popular consensus.

Where is there a good example for moderate Islam? The only country I can think of is Albania.

So wait, Muslims are taking over our countries with their laws? Well, I have heard of some things over hear, mainly that they get preferential treatment from the police and courts in some cases I personally find most of this nonsense.
It appears to be conspiracy theorist crap that has been cooked up by angry rednecks.

That said, if the threat is real.... Lets take off and nuke the site from orbit....

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
You were not an ex-Muslim apostate turned militant atheist, were you ?

Uhmm... no. But I doubt you'll make many friends anywhere by being militant.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
There are a bunch of Muslim-majority countries that do not implement Sharia. Does it not prove that even Muslims know that Islam is the problem, even if they do not acknowledge it, even to themselves ?

I'd say it doesn't prove anything, as this is colonial heritage and not a conscious decision to "avoid" Shari'a. Let's talk again in twenty years to see which countries really opted out for good. I fear there won't be that many.

Anyway, I'm the last person to romanticize Islam, but as with any religion, ideology or philosophy you can do with it what you want - I don't see how this particular religion is "by nature" more evil than Christianity, Socialism or Nietzsche's writings.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Where is there a good example for moderate Islam? The only country I can think of is Albania.

I'd agree that currently there's none except for Albania. Go back a few decades, and the picture changes completely.

 Allod wrote:
I'd say it doesn't prove anything, as this is colonial heritage and not a conscious decision to "avoid" Shari'a.

Clearly some people say they are Muslim and yet are very, very strongly against Sharia being the law.

 Allod wrote:
Anyway, I'm the last person to romanticize Islam, but as with any religion, ideology or philosophy you can do with it what you want - I don't see how this particular religion is "by nature" more evil than Christianity, Socialism or Nietzsche's writings.

I am not going to tell you why it is more evil than anything. I do not care about bad versus worse comparison for the sake of comparison. But I can tell you why it is wrong by nature, if you so want.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Clearly some people say they are Muslim and yet are very, very strongly against Sharia being the law.

Yeah. I'd also be very, very strongly against taking the Bible as the source or even basis of our law. So, what does this prove, apart from the fact that I understand the necessity to separate between church and state?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am not going to tell you why it is more evil than anything. I do not care about bad versus worse comparison for the sake of comparison. But I can tell you why it is wrong by nature, if you so want.

No, thanks. Not to appear antagonistic, but I simply don't see the use of debating the moral value of this or that interpretation of holy texts, because in the end, people will read them as literally or liberally as they want and care nothing for what you or I think is the "correct" way to do it.

Modern, hardline Islam is the death of intellect, art, creativity, equality, choice and freedom.

It is anti women, anti gay, anti education, anti tolerance, anti questioning. It is driven solely by doctrine and obedience and punishment.

The days of Saladin and wisdom, tolerance and education among the Islamic nations of earth, when the Western world were the barbarians at the gates, is long gone. What exists now seeks to drive us all back into the stone age, whilst it cuts off women's noses, forces boys to read nothing but it's 'holy book' whilst preparing to become living bombs, destroys thousands of years old sculptures of other peoples gods, beheads, tortures, burns books, kills for 'witchcraft', enslaves, mutilates and enforces it's laws of absolutes on any place it takes root.

It should be countered. Severely. Instead we cater to it, apologize to it and fall over ourselves and act to the detriment of the freedom of others to avoid offending it, until it finds yet another thing to be offended by, whilst all the while offending our Western democratic values.

I've lived in inner city Britain and seen for myself how Islam behaves, how it's 'moderates' turn a blind eye to their radical counterparts or even quietly support them. My friend was attacked on the street for 'dressing like a whore' and walking through a 'muslim area'. When I talked about this to some friends who's politics I usually share, I was told she should have been more thoughtful of their culture and where she was walking... This is nuts.

It is a cult with no way of sharing airspace long term with Western democratic values, save for diluting it's self. It's radicals in the Western cities are becoming worse as they fear they are losing their younger population to 'Western vices'.

We must stop acquiescing to it's every idiot demand and start telling it to shut up and either join the party or leave.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Modern, hardline Islam is the death of intellect, art, creativity, equality, choice and freedom.

It is anti women, anti gay, anti education, anti tolerance, anti questioning. It is driven solely by doctrine and obedience and punishment.

The days of Saladin and wisdom, tolerance and education among the Islamic nations of earth, when the Western world were the barbarians at the gates, is long gone. What exists now seeks to drive us all back into the stone age, whilst it cuts off women's noses, forces boys to read nothing but it's 'holy book' whilst preparing to become living bombs, destroys thousands of years old sculptures of other peoples gods, beheads, tortures, burns books, kills for 'witchcraft', enslaves, mutilates and enforces it's laws of absolutes on any place it takes root.

It should be countered. Severely. Instead we cater to it, apologize to it and fall over ourselves and act to the detriment of the freedom of others to avoid offending it, until it finds yet another thing to be offended by, whilst all the while offending our Western democratic values.

I've lived in inner city Britain and seen for myself how Islam behaves, how it's 'moderates' turn a blind eye to their radical counterparts or even quietly support them. My friend was attacked on the street for 'dressing like a whore' and walking through a 'muslim area'. When I talked about this to some friends who's politics I usually share, I was told she should have been more thoughtful of their culture and where she was walking... This is nuts.

It is a cult with no way of sharing airspace long term with Western democratic values, save for diluting it's self. It's radicals in the Western cities are becoming worse as they fear they are losing their younger population to 'Western vices'.

We must stop acquiescing to it's every idiot demand and start telling it to shut up and either join the party or leave.

I agree and disagree with various points in this comment. I do agree that In countries such as the UK and the USA, where Muslims are in the minority, our secular values and traditions must be upheld. If they don't like it, they can lump it. That's not to say religious groups should be persecuted, no way, but nobody should be getting special treatment.

As far as the Islamic world goes, their country, their rules. Part of the problem in this day and age is the clash of values between west and east. I've never bought into the argument that our values are better than their values, because that just results in all sorts of problems.

We've seen what happens when the west tries to impose democracy in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. They don't like it, and they don't seem to want it. We should be steering well clear of the Middle east. Let them get on with it. And to be fair to you, you have advocated this in previous posts.

I don't want to end up like Matty so I won't wax eloquent about this, but MGS is pretty much spot on. Modern Islam is terrible for the world.

I can't remember if someone here linked this article originally, but it's a good read if you haven't seen it before.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/lifting-the-veil-of-islamophobia

A key part, I think for the discussion at hand.

Hirsi Ali: When I read the work of my critics, whether it’s a blog or an article or a full book, they introduce me as a “controversial figure.” I’ve been trying to wrap my head around what I say, exactly, that makes me controversial.

Consider my views about the treatment of women under Islam. Where is the controversy? Can anyone argue that women are treated well in traditional Muslim societies? Under Islam, every woman is a second-class citizen. She can inherit only half as much as her brother. Her testimony in court—say, in the case of her own rape—is worth half that of her rapist. A Muslim woman has to ask a male guardian for permission to get married or have a child—in some places to even leave the house. And all these various oppressions are justified using the core texts of Islam: the Koran and the hadith. I’m amazed by the accusation that something I’ve said on this topic is controversial. It’s simply horrible to treat women like this. Is that a controversial thing to say? Is it controversial to say that men and women should be equal? I would have thought this was the most boring statement a person could make.

Harris: It certainly should be. That’s what is so crazy about this Islamophobia charge. The people who commit the worse offenses—the honor killers, the suicide bombers, the Taliban gunman who attempted to murder Malala Yousafzai—are absolutely clear about their motives and articulate them at every opportunity. They are motivated by Islam. Yes, other religions have problematic doctrines. We can even concede that the Old Testament is the most barbaric scripture of them all. But Christians and Jews don’t tend to take the worst of its passages seriously, for reasons that can be explained both by the centuries during which these Western faiths have been weathered by science and secularism and by crucial elements of their own theology. Most important, in my view, is the fact that Christianity and Judaism do not have clear doctrines of jihad, nor do they promise, ad nauseam, that martyrs go straight to Paradise. Islam is truly unique in this respect, which helps explain the fanaticism and violence we see throughout the Muslim world. Of course, your focus has been on the plight of women and girls under Islam, many millions of whom live in conditions that are antithetical to the most basic human happiness, as you know all too well. And the rationale for their oppression is drawn directly from scripture.

With regard to the UK I just think that we should say no to any further religious based laws, start to curb segregated/religious schools and stop the building of new churches/synagogues/mosques. While religion has certainly shaped society it is time to move on, give people the right to express themselves and practice their religion but don't impose it on others. Considering that a majority of Britons don't believe in God I think this is a fair move.

I also hate the way people talk about Christian Values, as in what our PM said recently. Implying that the British public is unable to show kindness, sympathy or goodwill to others without believing in God.

Halal/(Jewish Equivalent? Not Kosher there is a specific word that escapes me) meat is processed in a crueler way than regular slaughterhouses. I don't think we should compromise on animal welfare for the sake of a religion. Businesses will lead us down this road in order to get every potential penny and not care for the moral or societal outcomes.

INTEGRATE YOU GAKS! EVERYBODY INTO THE MELTING POT! (As long as everybody comes out Godless! )

I was merely pointing out that Turkey is kind of a bad example for a moderate Islam that is based on popular consensus. Politically speaking, said moderate Islam is losing the war there.

I was more commenting on the utterly ridiculous notion that in a country that is 96% Muslim, Muslims are the problem. That makes no sense at all. It's like going to Russia and telling them that Russians are the reason they have all their problems.

I don't think Islam is the problem. Islam is what it is, and it's been like that since the day it was founded.

In my view, the problem is the clash of values brought about by a shrinking, modern world, due to various advances in communications and travel technology. In the west we have a fundamental Islamic minority looking to impose their values on a secular society, and on the other hand, we've seen what happens in the Middle east when western powers try to impose their values on the Middle east.

It's irresistible force Versus immovable object.

I like western values, but I won't fall into the trap of saying my values are better than yours and you must adopt them, because that would make me as intolerant as the other side.