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So if I am reading this right you snap fire other weapons for the player turn once the ordinance shot goes off.

Shooting is now by weapon profile all the way to the remove casualty step, then you pick another gun in the unit.

So if I wait to fire my ordinance last, the other guns can fire full bs since it hasn't shot yet?

Please keep the stationary can fire all weapons stuff out of this thread since thay is old hat, we now have a shooting turn progression in 7th that wasnt in 6th.

Imo this is the way to go. Anytime I can have a strtegic choice in my games it makes it more fun.

If that is true..then it's a sneaky snarky way to evade having to snap shot..but it's within the rules, since it's by weapon type; so nothing's stopping me to fire my stubber, then my heavy bolter, then my battle canon at your troops..

Well the downside to doing that is you might not be in range (ya right) or your initial volley might net you less kills.

I think its an ok trade off. but still very sneaky sis.

All of a units shooting is still considered simultaneous. Changing the order of resolved shots doesn't get around ordnance

If this did work then there would be no point to have that restriction on ordnance because you can always just fire it last.

It may no longer be "simultaneous" since all shots are resolved from weapon to weapon "7th"

That's purely for would allocation purposes

Mind ya i dont have the book yet (hopefully within a few hours)

But unless it straight up states that all shots are simul, there is room to argue.

It is not simultaneous. You choose, hit, allocate, save, remove before going to the next weapon. Page 30.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also this is really only powerful on heavy vehicles since most others are going to move and snap fire other weapons. Vindicator comes to mind as not benefitting much with its short range. Leman russ however. ..............

 CrownAxe wrote:
That's purely for would allocation purposes

Not in seventh. Per weapon, all the way to casualty removal

The only thing people might argue is Pg73 Vehicles & Ordnance weapons:

"However, a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with it's other weapons that turn."

If you shot your other weapons first, not Snap Firing than you can't shoot your ordnance weapon at all as you won't be following the rule for Vehicles & Ordnance weapons.

Stationary vehicle rule takes over in that case right?

I don't think so, If you shoot an ordnance weapon all other shots fired are snap fire that turn. Pretty specific. I'm a guard player with lots of LR tanks I want to fire my ordnance weapons and sponsons but I believe it's the same as 6th.

 portugus wrote:
I don't think so, If you shoot an ordnance weapon all other shoots fired are snap fire that turn. Pretty specific. I'm a guard player with lots of LR tanks I want to fire my ordnance weapons and sponsons but I believe it's the same as 6th.

How so? Shooting is completely different.

If the order you fire vehicles weapons mattered, then there would be no reason for the rule portugus quoted.

Caboose

The rule specifies "turn" so it doesn't matter about what order you resolve the firing. If the vehicle fires ordinance that turn all other shots are snap fire.

this seems to be the consensus with the guys in my LFGG, not all of us have got our rules books yet but those that do have come to the conclusion that the ordinance - other guns restriction on snap shots is still the same.

 portugus wrote:
The only thing people might argue is Pg73 Vehicles & Ordnance weapons:

"However, a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with it's other weapons that turn."

If you shot your other weapons first, not Snap Firing than you can't shoot your ordnance weapon at all as you won't be following the rule for Vehicles & Ordnance weapons.

^ this, from a RAW approach. But would be cool for tanks to fire their other weapons while the main gun is loading and targeting.

There is nothing RAW that permits you to sneak around the rule about snap shots. If you fire Ordnance, you snap shoot everything else that turn.

HIWPI: if you shoot a secondary weapon first and normally, you can either accept that you can't fire the Ordnance, or you can undo everything from the first shot. And don't do it again.

 ruprecht wrote:
There is nothing RAW that permits you to sneak around the rule about snap shots. If you fire Ordnance, you snap shoot everything else that turn.

HIWPI: if you shoot a secondary weapon first and normally, you can either accept that you can't fire the Ordnance, or you can undo everything from the first shot. And don't do it again.

Page 486, Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons, "a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn."

Seems clear. If you don't snap shot your other weapons then you can't fire the ordnance. If you snap fire then you can.

but the problem is is that the rule only takes effect only after you fire the ordnance. Nothing is forbidding you to be unable to fire your ordnance after firing everything else.

All other weapons are fired as Snap Shots only after you fire an Ordnance weapon. They don't retroactively effect previously fired shots do they? Because if they do then its just playing scroudinger's Ordnance.

Does this mean you can firing all the other weapons first as snap fire but then decide not to fire ordnance? But that means the Ordnance rule doesn't apply which means you don't fire them as snap shots, which means they fire at full BS which means you can fire Ordnance but that makes all your other weapons fire snap shots which means..... etc.




player:I fire all my non-ordnance weapons.
Rule book:Follow rules for shooting ok?.
playerk! (goings through picking weapond wounds etc etc)
Rule book: pick a new weapon to fire if you have one.
player: Picking ordnance weapon to fire.
Rule book:Ok but now all your other weapons are snap fire.
Player: wait.. what about the shots i already fir-
*goes dark from GW hit squad*




I don't think that the Ordnance rules do a weird see into the future retroactively apply deal. It looks more like it is a way to prevent clean up with the other weapons after the Ordnance. Since the Ord is gonna be the big bang on the model this rule makes it harder to take out a large chunk of a unit with the Ord and then clean up the stragglers with the other weaker weapons.



Edit: in short the rule isn't in effect until after you fire an Ordnance.

Loopstah wrote:
Seems clear. If you don't snap shot your other weapons then you can't fire the ordnance. If you snap fire then you can.

"If A then B" and "if B then A" are not the same thing. The ordnance rule causes all other weapons to be resolved as snap shots, it does NOT work the other way around and force you to fire snap shots as a prerequisite for using the ordnance weapon. When you declare your non-ordnance shots they will be resolved at full BS (assuming nothing else modifies their BS) because you have not fired an ordnance weapon. Then once you fire the ordnance weapon all weapons fired after that point will be snap shots. However, nothing causes you to go back and change the BS of the weapons you've already shot, and there is absolutely nothing in the rules that says that you can't fire the ordnance weapon if you've already fired full-BS shots with other weapons.

Now, RAI is probably that it shouldn't work that way, but GW doesn't bother playtesting or proofreading their rules so what probably happened is someone added the new rules for firing weapons in sequence instead of simultaneously and never bothered to check if those changes had any impact on other rules. But wishful thinking about a fantasy world in which GW's rule authors aren't lazy idiots isn't really relevant to the question of how the rules they actually published work.

Oberron wrote:

All other weapons are fired as Snap Shots only after you fire an Ordnance weapon.

This is incorrect, and the reason your and @Perigrine's arguments are invalid. RAW 7RB:

... a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn.

Not "that turn after firing the Ordnance." That turn. Period.

If you fire another weapon at full BS, it is not possible to fire the Ordnance afterwards that turn without violating that rule. Ergo, you cannot fire the Ordnance in that situation RAW.

Going with the "Either Snapfire or don't shoot Ordinance" faction. It's pretty clear RAW-wise as it specifies "that turn". The order doesn't matter, even if you shoot the regular weapons first.

 ruprecht wrote:

Oberron wrote:

All other weapons are fired as Snap Shots only after you fire an Ordnance weapon.

This is incorrect, and the reason your and @Perigrine's arguments are invalid. RAW 7RB:

... a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn.

Not "that turn after firing the Ordnance." That turn. Period.

If you fire another weapon at full BS, it is not possible to fire the Ordnance afterwards that turn without violating that rule. Ergo, you cannot fire the Ordnance in that situation RAW.

My thoughts exactly. If you fire other weapons first, followed by an Ordnance weapon, then you have broken the "that turn" rule.

Each phase has an order of operations. You cannot just negate that by saying, "well it says turn."

Think of it this way, if you hadnt played any other edition and read the shooting rules then those rules would you be as stubborn about it?

Also, is this interpretation much more elegant? I now have to choose how to fire the weapons. That is more fun, creates more strategic decisions, and fixes an issue in the rulebook that has been around since 5th.

Another question. Do the naysayers A. Think this is a broken interpretation? And B. Do you think it is a difference maker in the game?

(For example, Guard player simply take other weapons or leave off sponsons from the russ, this will just make the normal battle cannon another option.)

Any time you give players choice with a rule interpretation is always a better decision imo, makes the game more interesting.

You can house rule it for fun and interest and elegance and strategy however you want, with my blessing. HYWPI is HYWPI, nobody's going to care. But this is YMDC, and YMDC is all about the rules as written. Read the sticky posts.

The rule on this is clearly written, and supports the clear intent of the rule as well. Wanting it to be different doesn't make it so. If you only asked the OP so that you could get people to agree with your HYWPI, you're gonna have a bad time.

 ruprecht wrote:
You can house rule it for fun and interest and elegance and strategy however you want, with my blessing. HYWPI is HYWPI, nobody's going to care. But this is YMDC, and YMDC is all about the rules as written. Read the sticky posts.

The rule on this is clearly written, and supports the clear intent of the rule as well. Wanting it to be different doesn't make it so. If you only asked the OP so that you could get people to agree with your HYWPI, you're gonna have a bad time.

Don't be that way. I can clearly see two ways of interpreting the rule, I am not dense.

I am trying to say, much like the knight shield and barrage confusion, there is a much nicer and more enjoyable interpretation now that the rules for shooting have changed.

I'm trying not to be that way. But I'm answering from a RAW perspective, and you're dancing around it with spurious talk of elegance and such, and you've clearly based your interpretation on the misreading of the rule applying "after" Ordnance firing, where there is no such wording in the rules.

The new rules for shooting weapon by weapon make no difference. If you have shot your Storm Bolter first at full BS, it is not possible to fire the Whirlwind launcher that turn without violating the Ordnance rule. Clear as day. Black and white.

If you have a rules-based argument for why I'm wrong, I'm all ears. If you have simply decided the way you want to play it, and aren't interested in RAW, why ask in YMDC?

Peace, friend.

 sfshilo wrote:

 ruprecht wrote:
You can house rule it for fun and interest and elegance and strategy however you want, with my blessing. HYWPI is HYWPI, nobody's going to care. But this is YMDC, and YMDC is all about the rules as written. Read the sticky posts.

The rule on this is clearly written, and supports the clear intent of the rule as well. Wanting it to be different doesn't make it so. If you only asked the OP so that you could get people to agree with your HYWPI, you're gonna have a bad time.

Don't be that way. I can clearly see two ways of interpreting the rule, I am not dense.

No, there aren't.

It explicitely says "that turn" and therefore refers to the entire turn. If you shoot an ordinance weapon after shooting your other weapons at full BS, you break this rule.