How many smash attacks when charging, etcetera?

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**Perfect Organism**

There seems to be two relevant rules here:

Smash: ...when it makes its close combat attacks, it can choose instead to make a single Smash Attack.

Multiple Modifiers: If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

Based on that, it seems that a Smash Attack is always a single attack and you can never gain an additional Smash Attack for charging, having an additional weapon or anything else unless it changes your attacks to a set value.

Do you agree that this is the case?

**some bloke**

i agree that it's a complete substitution. your normal attacks are the charge, extra weapons etc. substitute all these for a smash attack.

**Sir Arun**

did it work differently in 6th?

you had half the amount of attacks turned into smash attacks (rounding up, I assume), but did you count the bonus charge attack before halving the attacks?

**Sigvatr**

You're correct.

Smash trades for all of your close combat attacks.

**phatonic**

Well as the rule clearly says.
when it makes its close combat attacks, it can choose instead to make a single Smash Attack.
..so there you go a Single attack.

**Perfect Organism**

Sir Arun wrote:
did it work differently in 6th?

you had half the amount of attacks turned into smash attacks (rounding up, I assume), but did you count the bonus charge attack before halving the attacks?

No, it was even better than that. In sixth edition you halved your basic attacks and then added all the bonus attacks from charging, etc.

**JinxDragon**

This reads like a few other 'instead of X do Y' rules.
As it is not a Modifier that is being applied to the attacks, but a completely different method of resolution, the only thing we can do is resolve the situation using the different instructions provided. I would put it in the same category as Snap Shots, in that any Rule looking to modify the number of Attacks generated via Smash would have to specifically state it modifies Smash Attacks. Therefore anything with a general 'additional attacks' would not be able to apply to the number of attacks generated by Smash.

**Leonus**

It kind of sounds like you can't get hammer of wrath or (for nids) tail attacks, with that ruling. What do yall think?

**Khaine's Wrath**

I'd say you still get HoW attacks. They are separate to your attacks statistic on your stat line, and cannot be modified.

The way I'd play it - HoW attack at unmodified strength at I10, and then normal attacks OR a single smash attack at double strength...

**djdarknoise**

Leonus wrote:
It kind of sounds like you can't get hammer of wrath or (for nids) tail attacks, with that ruling. What do yall think?

Hammer of Wrath is not a Close Combat Attack. It is a separate hit at Initiative 10.

It clearly states when to substitute. When do you make close combat attacks? At your own initiative. How many attacks do you get? Profile + Weapon Bonus (if applicable) + charging bonus (if applicable). Now, add them all up, and if you choose to smash, you exchange all of them for 1 attack.

**Sir Arun**

Did hammer of wrath get its Strength boosted by smash in 6th edition?

**DeathReaper**

Sir Arun wrote:
Did hammer of wrath get its Strength boosted by smash in 6th edition?

Smash did not boost the model's Strength score in 6th. So, no HoW did not get its Strength boosted by smash in 6th.

**Backlash**

I think there is also room to argue Tyranid tail biomorph attacks. As it states it is not affected by special rules.

**TomWilton**

Doesn't "multiple modifiers" (page 8) say multiply/divide first, then add/subtract, then finally state effects? So, no matter how you cut it or increase it, the state effect of "a single Smash attack" take precedence?

**Backlash**

Hammer of wrath and tail biomorphs are seperate from the units attack and have their own rules that govern them. Tail biomorphs state they are not affected by special rules, HoW states it does not benefit from them. Its not so cut and dry as simple addition on number of attacks.

**Vector Strike**

It's the same case with Screamers and Lamprey's Bite:

a Screamer can substitute all of its normal close combat attacks fort a single special attack with the following profile(...)

when this went out, a discussion akin to this one came up. AFAIK, it was RAI'ed that you get only 1 attack per screamer; "normal close combat attacks" = any attacks done by it, not only the A characteristic. Don't remember if they kept HoW with this, but I think they did.

While Smash's:

Additionally, when it makes its close combat attacks, it can choose instead to make a single Smash Attack.

This is even more explicit: "its CC attacks", embodying charge bonuses. How it interacts with HoW, I dunno. I'd let the player use normal HoW, but just one 1 smash attack.