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Lovely logic. The fact that the game has continually become more simplified and less dependent on tactics or strategy means that the trend should keep continuing.

Hard to argue with that.

Huh, let me say it again just for emphasis... DARK ANGELS ARE THE SUXXORR!! And guess what, that's not just my opinion. Pull of the GW welding goggles for a minute and read some of the threads. Hell, read your own words about them sucking but only in comparison to SM, and CSM, and Nids, oh and Eldar, and geez maybe Blood Angels now?

So that would be the on tangent stuff. Here's some more. It's not just about loss of modeled options. It's about oversimplification of the game. It's about lack of consistency and direction within the GW organization leading to my army sucking! But, that's nothing new you say. Well gosh oh whiz gee! I guess that makes it all better then. I should just crawl back into the corner and be glad they're willing to throw me a bone even if it is covered in crap.

Face it Ozz, no matter how hard you polish, no matter how much time you spend preaching the company line, you're not going to magically change the turd that is the Dark Angel Codex into some shining grail that will be the stunning example to lead us forward into the future.

The codex could have been good w/o losing options, w/o going down the road of suckiness that it did. Of course that would have required Jervis doing more than just listening to Owen Rees ideas about what would be cool to see. It could have used some actual playtesting by outsiders that was listened to. It would have required flexibility and open minds from GW. But that didn't happen. Still it's not like I can't just play my orcs. Oh wait, their codex got put off so that Jerbil can work harder on making it suck too. My bad!

Posted By Ozymandias on 04/18/2007 11:37 AM

@ Hellfury: When I said Dakka, I was referring to internet forums in general.

I know man, just giving ya crap.

Rygoth, It may not be just your opinion, but it is nonetheless, an opinion. I have a different opinion, doesn't make it a fact. I just think the argument is getting old, cause they aren't about to suddenly go, "oops, sorry, here you go DA, a new codex!"

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 04/21/2007 12:28 PM
Rygoth, It may not be just your opinion, but it is nonetheless, an opinion. I have a different opinion, doesn't make it a fact. I just think the argument is getting old, cause they aren't about to suddenly go, "oops, sorry, here you go DA, a new codex!"

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Nah - though they did in 3rd edition for Dark Angels. And around the same time for Dark Elves.

GW isn't completely oblivious the complaints of fans. They won't get a fix for at least 2 years though - saving face and all that.

After more experience, I don't think the DA Codex is fundamentally flawed and it's playable and could probably be perfectly competitive with some points tweaking. The restrictions are annoying though as is the cheese (first turn assaults don't make for a fun game, sorry).

Good Lord.

First, it was just the DA suckand are underpowered. Now, it's they suck and are underpowered, but they're also cheesy.

Alright, let's just get some perspective here. This industry is dying.

Console/MMORPG games have dominated the gaming industry, undercutting the future fanbase of little GWers who don't want to have to even GLUE the pieces together. Check out the intro sets to all the games and tell me I'm wrong.

The rush for immediate gratification and play is so strong the intro sets don't even require GLUE. It's snap and play. WizKids spoiled a generation of gamers, because most new mini gamers want something to tear open and start playing RIGHT NOW.

Like it or not, we've become the older guys (admit it) who used to play tactical board games with little square chits on a hex-grid map. Those guys have no problem with the hexes and calculator-based fighting system (Starfleet Battles, countless military/historial wargames), but I sure wanted nothing to do with them.

That's us now.

Don't believe me? Look at the sales numbers. Our little nook of the industry isn't doing well. And if we don't find a cure, then it really won't matter what rules for what army "ARE THE SUXXORR!!", they simply won't exist.

Streamlining play, streamlining what it takes to put you on the board and playing is most important, because like most kids get ANNOYED with a one minute LOADING TIME on their Xbox/360/PS2. Imagine telling them they need to spend 10x the $$ for a game, then gluing and painting them--much less wade through 30 or 40 special upgrades and the +/- or each...no way.

And kids are voting with their dollars. Warmachine is doing well because you buy the box, you buy the book and you play what you've got. And THEY'RE even affected by this "need it now" mentality. Gluing and painting.

Rackham's AT-43 and Mongoose aren't doing pre-painted, assembled plastics because they think they're neat. They're doing it to stay RELEVANT in the game industry.

Face it. The DA codex was an attempt to stop Marine codex creep/domination, which has required those still in the industry to place their models into expensive ($$ and pts) tanks and transports, just to have a change in hell of surviving. C:SM is crazy powerful against the other armies.

I don't want to analyze pages of options for wargear and whatnot. I want to put a dependable army together and play with my friends. That's it. The more "moving parts" to a game, the greater the chance of overall imbalance. And those who say otherwise are kidding themselves. 3rd ED was FILLED with threads about broken armies and ridiculous wargear options.

In other words, this is a dead horse. We really need to stop kicking it like what we say makes a difference. What we need to do is get more people playing our hobby. Because these insular, frustrated (even angry) rants about "broken" armies will not fix anything, change anything and will only make new people to the hobby NOT want to play them.

I know if I just decided to quite playing HeroClix or whatever and found this board and read these kinds of rabid threads, I wouldn't get into 40k, because what if the army I chose, spent hundreds of dollars on and painted and glued and got ready for play "SUCKED"? I'd rather just go buy Dead Rising or God of War 50.

Just one man's opinion.

Your post makes a lot of sense but I think it could be wrong. In my opinion kids just play a lot more in general so there's room for both MMORPGs like WoW and tabletop games like Warhammer. You don't get anything fast in WoW either as you have to play the game ~350 hours just to reach the maximum level and that's when the really boring grinding starts.

Gaming has become so big and so many people are addicted that it's become a genuine problem for the development of teenagers. There's a very real need for clinics that treat gaming addicts. In any case when I walk to my local GW store what I see isn't a bunch of grumpy old farts whining about broken units but absolutely MASSES of ten year old guys painting new models. To be honest when I look around the game has never been better. The game hasn't changed as much as we the old players have. There was absolutely no balance whatsoever in the 2nd edition of Warhammer 40K but I never whined then. I wonder why? Oh yes, I grew up and became disillusioned.

Warhammer can't beat WoW by trying to offer a mindless low-attention span quick fix. Painting alone rules that out.

It can offer a different experience though. Believe it or not, not every single person on the planet likes WoW. Selling to those people who do have decent attention spans and are willing to set up a game, paint an army and the like is a viable business strategy. GW's endured shifts to video games before. This isn't anything all that new.

And it's perfectly possible for something to be both underpowered and cheesy at the same time. That said, I doubt people new to the hobby really care that some people think that the game is unbalanced. (After all, using your example, the WoW forums contain thousands and thousands of threads about things being unbalanced with far more vitriol than Dakka, and that hasn't hurt that.)

And the same MMO players that you say don't want to analyze pages of wargear do calculus and logarithms do determine the best ways to optimize their characters. For all the talk that dumbing the game down will widen its appeal, it sure hasn't worked that way.

Warhammer/40K are better off following a blue ocean strategy then trying to compete with MMOs and video games on their terms.

Asmodai, I completely agree with you.
The market is still there. It does a diservice to the kids of today by claiming they have short attention spans- my parents said the same about me when I was obsessively trying to finish Mario world.
This game attracts a certain type of person. And in general, that sort of person does not like to be patronised with incredibly stupid "ACE ACE ACE!" advertising and shiney pictures. whether they are 10 or 40.