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The Power Cosmic wrote:

syr8766 wrote:The complete lack of ability to react to anything on the battlefield.

That's really more of a result of IGOUGO.

Which is also dumb, as I stated before.

I guess I'd be happier with IGOUGO or a variation thereof (Warmachine and Hordes have it, after all, but you have to complete each unit in turn; too slow a mechanism for 40ks hordes but the theory is sound) if there was some other reaction mechanism. But you're correct, IGOUGO is the root illness, lack of reaction is merely a symptom.

FragEq. You throw them you are I10, whether I2 ork or I5 hero.

Double post

1 Infantry Platoon=1 Armored Fist Squad.
What the heck is up with that rule?
Why isn't there a "1 Scout Squad=1 Marine Squad" or a "1 Guardian Squad=1 Dire Avenger Squad" rule?

Kanluwen wrote:1 Infantry Platoon=1 Armored Fist Squad.
What the heck is up with that rule?
Why isn't there a "1 Scout Squad=1 Marine Squad" or a "1 Guardian Squad=1 Dire Avenger Squad" rule?

It's to model the typical Imperial Guard organization. It's not in the other books because it's a not a good rule and other armies aren't as rigidly organized.

I expect that in the new Guard Codex the rule will be gone along with the mechanized doctrine as merging the two is a good way to simplify the book while not actually losing any variety or options.

That's not "typical Imperial Guard organization" by far, at least as far as IA books are concerned...

1. The first turn being SO damn crucial to the game
2. A lack of any real missions besides kill each other (which all the missions essentially devolve into)
3. Tanks not splitting fire
4. Area terrain being pretty strange in how it works, and no one knowing how to use it
5. Hideous Codex Creep!!!
6. Jacked up Eldar skimmers that can't really be killed
7. New codexes with a lack of any real wargear section and basically no options (looking at you Chaos Marines!)
8. The New Chaos Codex (god damn it's awful!)
9. The DH and DA codexes (they make the chaos one look good)
10. The New Eldar Codex (and soon to be Orks), are so overpowered it's not even funny, and are filled with choices no one would EVER take, so you basically fight the same cheesy list every time
11. Rapid fire weapons being SO inferior to assault guns (which everyone is now getting), a marine can shoot, but then just sits there and waits to die, WTF?
12. Special characters no longer being opponent permission only (NO, you can't use Eldrad! LOL)
13. The WH and DH allies rules, if you take SOB or GK you can't have any marines, but if you have marines you can have SOB and GK's, HUH? Also, the whole having the include priests and inquisitors (which are HORRIBLE), in order to use any of the interesting stuff in the WH/DH books
14. Mobility being so overpowering now, and the lack of many armies in mobility; NO rolling-coffing rhinos, chimeras and Land Raiders don't count!
15. The current trend to nerf eveything Marines until it isn't playable anymore (combat squads, needing 10 men to get heavy weapons, making everything over priced and restricted, etc)
16. Did I mention Eldar? they're really just the pinnacle of broken crap, I don't know what GW was thinking

I'm sure I'll come up with some more...

Please do! It's a great list. lol

syr8766 wrote:IGOUGO is the root illness, lack of reaction is merely a symptom.

Meh.

IgoUgo is prefectly fine, particularly as 40k becomes movement and objective-based, rather than depending on 1st turn shooting between two static fire lines.

Anything else adds a lot of complexity and bookkeeping for very little actual game, compared to perceived gain.

No, the *real* root illness is the power of ranged shooting compared to weakness of mobility.

For the 5th Edition rulebook, I'd suggest:
- NO VP scenarios
- 4 game levels - Alpha, Delta, Gamma, and Omega
- Escalation in ALL non-Alpha games
- minimum 1/4 cover/terrain; recommended 1/3 cover/ terrain

And of course, redo the SM and especially IG Codices.

I understand that escalation is there to curve ball an army so it can't be #1 all the time. But they still need to fix it up.

One of my biggest beefs ever has been the fleet rules. Why can't I just roll my fleet during my movment phase. The most annoying thing in the would is to roll a and then move your 30 gaunts that inch. I don't mind moving 7 inches in one go. It's just a matter of stream lining.

People can argue that 40k is about mobility. I've always that that the idea of trench warfare and close range firefights are more appealing. But I'm not sure which fits the 40k design statment better.

40k used to be about WW1-style trench warfare, and this peaked in 2nd Edition with limited movement, Overwatch and extremely long weapon ranges. The problem with trench warfare is that it is exceedingly boring.

Thankfully, 40k is moving away from static play, and more towards mobility. So games should be more dynamic and interesting in the future.

I agree with alot of your points, but not all of them

uatu13 wrote:
7. New codexes with a lack of any real wargear section and basically no options (looking at you Chaos Marines!)

I fear it's the first step toward Warmachine'esque stat cards

10. The New Eldar Codex (and soon to be Orks), are so overpowered it's not even funny, and are filled with choices no one would EVER take, so you basically fight the same cheesy list every time

I'm sorry, you evidently are playing with differet codices than I am.
I've yet to play against a single ork or eldar army that was overwhelming.
It might have something to do with the 90% of the army being fielded not even get saves vs bolter fire, let alone the Whirlwhind barrage or Battle Cannon fire I frequently lay down on them.

11. Rapid fire weapons being SO inferior to assault guns (which everyone is now getting), a marine can shoot, but then just sits there and waits to die, WTF?

Run and shoot once, or stand your ground and shoot twice. I don't see why it's soo inferior to short ranged Eldar weaponry or can't penetrate armor ork shootas.

12. Special characters no longer being opponent permission only (NO, you can't use Eldrad! LOL)

It was kinda an idiotic rule in the first place.
2nd Edition - fielded Lord Mephiston regularly
3rd Edition - traded off all of the personality models I collected as you couldn't use them in tournaments and most pick up gamers wanted to avoid them as well.

16. Did I mention Eldar? they're really just the pinnacle of broken crap, I don't know what GW was thinking

Aside from the skimmers, what else do you think is broken ?

adamsouza wrote:I agree with alot of your points, but not all of them

10. The New Eldar Codex (and soon to be Orks), are so overpowered it's not even funny, and are filled with choices no one would EVER take, so you basically fight the same cheesy list every time

adamsouza wrote:
I'm sorry, you evidently are playing with differet codices than I am.
I've yet to play against a single ork or eldar army that was overwhelming.
It might have something to do with the 90% of the army being fielded not even get saves vs bolter fire, let alone the Whirlwhind barrage or Battle Cannon fire I frequently lay down on them.

First off, I'm talking about the new Ork codex (the old one was fun but pretty poor in competativeness). Sure for Orks you can kill a few of them, but they're now so damn dirt cheap there isn't an army out there that can kill them all before they get to you. That, and with the new Storm Boyz and Trukks you're pretty much guaranteed to get into CC on turn 2, which stops most of the shooting at the rest of your army. Not to mention Shokk attack guns on independent characters so they can't be picked out, packs of lootas getting 45 autocannon shots, Mad Doc's making 30 boyz have FNP, Snikrott coming in off any table edge, etc....

Don't even get me started with Eldar. Besides Guardians, Asurmen, Warwalkers, and Vypers, everything is so overpowered for the points it's ridiculous. Basically if you take any combination of a phoenix lord, eldrad, harlequins, skimmers, dire avengers, and fire dragons every army will just melt, and there isn't anything they can do in retaliation. Sure, they can kill your DA, but who cares, they're like 152 points! The tanks don't die, the IC's don't die, the Harlequins don't die, and like 96 points of FD"s are guaranteed to kill any non-skimmer vehicle of your choice if you load them up in a falcon. If you're working off of VP's you can just win by the simple fact their tanks don't die and that you can't shoot at their IC's, both of which make up at least 75% of the cost of the army. The only way Harlequins die is if you get a bad FOF roll and get boltered, otherwise they just consolidate over and over or hide outside of veil spotting range. Hell, you can pretty much win your games with Eldrad and 3 skimmers.

It's a shame both of these codexes are getting so screwy now, because they both were some of my favorite armies in 40K.

11. Rapid fire weapons being SO inferior to assault guns (which everyone is now getting), a marine can shoot, but then just sits there and waits to die, WTF?

adamsouza wrote:
Run and shoot once, or stand your ground and shoot twice. I don't see why it's soo inferior to short ranged Eldar weaponry or can't penetrate armor ork shootas.

Rapid fire weapons are terrible. Let's see, first turn, I either move and don't do anything, or I shoot once if they were stupid and put guys at the 24" mark and maybe kill one or two guys. Second turn I may be able to get into rapid fire range, kill like 5 guys and get assaulted and massacred, or I can continue to not move and get those oh-so-effective single shots. Or, I could have an 18" assault weapon: First turn, do nothing. Second turn, everyone shoots twice, third turn, everyone shoots twice then assaults, or continues to pump shots out while moving away from any assault based army. Not to mention the fact that Eldar can then Doom, Guide, Bladestorm and are guaranteed to pretty much put 25-30 wounds on any realistic infantry unit.

12. Special characters no longer being opponent permission only (NO, you can't use Eldrad! LOL)

adamsouza wrote:
It was kinda an idiotic rule in the first place.
2nd Edition - fielded Lord Mephiston regularly
3rd Edition - traded off all of the personality models I collected as you couldn't use them in tournaments and most pick up gamers wanted to avoid them as well.

Yeah, they are kind of stupid to be in games under like 3000 points. I've yet to see a competative Eldar list that doesn't include Eldrad, like Eldrad is taking part in every little crappy battle all over the universe. Isn't he dead anyways? On the flip side we get uber-suck Chaos characters like Typhus for a billion points who gets smacked once with a power fist and eats it. I like the idea of named characters because they add the possibility to conduct some cool story battles, but named characters are now replacing every generic chracter that you used to be able to customize as you saw fit. Look at the new Marine and Chaos books if you need some proof.

16. Did I mention Eldar? they're really just the pinnacle of broken crap, I don't know what GW was thinking

adamsouza wrote:
Aside from the skimmers, what else do you think is broken ?

Let's see...Eldrad, Jain Zar, Maugan Ra, Feugan, Harlequins, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers, Pathfinders, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks against skimmers, Falcons, Fire Prisms, Vibro Cannons, Wraithlords, and Dark Reapers. I think that about covers it ;-)

Has anyone mentioned the Fast Moving Skimmers rule yet?

Yeah, I think it's come up a few times. I actually don't have any problems with most skimmers besides Eldar ones. Most skimmers can be stunned, then penned next turn, or can be immobilized and die, but eldar pretty much negate all the weaknesses that most skimmers have.

How about the AP stat instead of armour save modifiers?

Or the fact that a charging unit moves twice in one phase while the same unit not charging has no option to move that fast?

Cover and to hit modifiers, but people have already bitched about that.

Or how about we just agree that Warhammer is a silly game about bringing big guns or hard to kill units and then throwing them at each other mercilessly in a horrid meat grinder? It's really not the game to be talking about silly rules, as the game is built upon slowed mechanics.

Penitent Engines must move forward, but the squadron rules make them destroyed if you stun one.

Amusingly enough, in that giant pile of special rules all WH units have, it says they ignore stunned and shaken. Which is pretty cool. Open topped and AV11? Not so much.

I rather like special characters, but I think they need to be more careful with them in just how powerful they are and what special rules they bring. The WH special characters are neat, but not good. Celestine gets one hit like it's her job, and basically removes all your faith in the process. No good for 201 points. Being immune to Instant Death at least once would make her worth it though, and pretty neat. I shouldn't have to ask permission for a fairly fun unit that is balanced.
Now, if you are going to make special characters must have due to points efficiency and power, that's just silly, but for its own faults, not the fact it is a special character.

That said, I do support lots of wargear and upgrade options for characters in general. If I want to spend 500 points on Cannoness Cataclysm, or 45 points on Cannoness "I forgot my travel bag!" I don't see how being able to choose is necessarily a problem. Then again, I would like to have weapon and wargear options for shooting beyond "Storm Bolter". It would be nice if I could have my head girl pick up a heavy bolter or something just for kicks.

uatu13 wrote:First off, I'm talking about the new Ork codex

Don't even get me started with Eldar.

It's a shame both of these codexes are getting so screwy now, because they both were some of my favorite armies in 40K.

I suspect that that "cheesey" Eldar army that you describe is only auto-win against MEQ and might have some very serious problems against an Ork mob. I really look forward to seeing the inevitable whines from the Eldar crowd as they decry Orks as b0rken ch33z3.

Rapid fire weapons are terrible.

They're a lot more tactical than they were before, and very fair as basic weapons or limitations on Plasma.

I like the idea of named characters because they add the possibility to conduct some cool story battles, but named characters are now replacing every generic chracter that you used to be able to customize as you saw fit. Look at the new Marine and Chaos books if you need some proof.

I like this approach, BTW. The Blood Angels have a named Chapter Master, a named Chief Librarian, and named Chaplain - why shouldn't they be playable? I think 40k gains a lot more character moving from unnamed custom generics to named Special Characters. It's why Marines no longer have access to Shuriken Catapults, Wraithlords are no longer Dreadnoughts, and Starcannons aren't Plasma Cannons. Specializing things on an army-by-army basis allows each army to be more distinctively different precisely because they don't duplicate each other. When DA, BA, and UM, and BT all field the same generic "custom" Chaplain, that's kind of lame. When they each have a special guy, that's a lot more interesting.

And remember, GW is specifically moving away from WAAC support. If the only reason you did something was for the power, well, too bad for you.

Let's see...Eldrad, Jain Zar, Maugan Ra, Feugan, Harlequins, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers, Pathfinders, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks against skimmers, Falcons, Fire Prisms, Vibro Cannons, Wraithlords, and Dark Reapers. I think that about covers it ;-)

I think yoiu missed a few units...

Some of these were mentioned already but this is just my list so ...whatever.

1. Instant Death (immunity) - No amount of faith, stupidity, etc will keep something from getting blown in half by a direct hit from a bomb shell.

2. AV 3 or better keeps a vehicle from being open-topped - If the crew are using their bodies to shield the vital inards of their vehicle then the crew should be taking the hits!

3. No difference in damage to vehicles between weapons - A lascannon and a bolter have the same chance of destroying an ork truck on the glancing hits table. WHAT? I cannot stand going from other game systems to WH40K and having to deal with this. The strength of the weapon minus the armor of the target should determine the damage inflicted. The same should go for everything though (not just vehicles) in my opinion. A Grot hit by a meltagun should just be dead.

4. No difference in weapon skill because the weapon used is "ordnance" or "indirect fire." A Grot has just as good a chance to hit with a Demolisher Cannon as a Space Marine ...sure, whatever.

5. Overheat - The weapon has malfuncioned so badly that it will literally burn the gunner to death if he doesn't make an armor save. If he does make an armor save though the weapon will function normally immediately. If he dies though the weapon is lost forever. What?

6. Indirect Fire - Stupid, stupid, stupid! Shots are not called in, shots are always just as likely to miss a stationary target for the entirety of the game, shots must target a model.

7. Snipers - Probably one of the most effective methods of taking down single important units in real life is one of the worst ways to do it in game. To fix it we'll just have one team with like 6-10 snipers in it! Stupid!

8. No range modification of to hit rolls - A Space Marine will miss a Landraider he is standing a scale 1 foot away from because he is as good a shot at 400 yards as he is at point blank ranges. They could save a lot of room on rifle ranges if they just made all the targets 1 foot away from the shooters. ...I'd still go non qual though.

As usual, yak speaks the truth. I understand that for game purposes something must be done to undermine the real world effectiveness of snipers and indirect fire weapons so I'll let those two slide. I'll also let the range modifier go too because it would be a step backward toward their previos editions (not really a bad thing but their direction seems to be to simplify the shooting phase lately) but the rest just don't make any sense to me and I don't think it would slow the game down to account for them.

The rule that I hate the most:
"the fact that a charging unit moves twice in one phase while the same unit not charging has no option to move that fast? "

If you want to punch a guy in the face, you can run as fast as a tank(6" move + 6" charge). if you want to run for your life, you can't...

M_Stress wrote:
If you want to punch a guy in the face, you can run as fast as a tank(6" move + 6" charge). if you want to run for your life, you can't...

2-3d6" for falling back bro.

My gripe:

Independent Characters can't score, but certain units can. Cuz a Heavy Destroyer is much better at occupying that area than the Nightbringer, or a Deffkopta than Ghazkull. I wish there was a unit strength style stat, and you just added up both side's US's and whoever had more in the area got the objective. The notion that one Chaos Land Raider can't occupy an area, because terminators got out 5 turns ago, but the other can strikes me as slowed.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind having units that can not score, strikes me as important for balance. It shouldn't be coupled to unit type/role though. Its important enough to the game to devote a stat and some thought to it.

Glaive Company CO wrote:8. No range modification of to hit rolls - A Space Marine will miss a Landraider he is standing a scale 1 foot away from because he is as good a shot at 400 yards as he is at point blank ranges.

You realise, of course, that the models we use are grossly oversized compared to ground scale, and that from a "realistic" POV, the models would probably be smaller than 5mm Epic?

Orock wrote:Having to shoot at something you cant hurt because of target priority. I mean if you have a dreadnaught with av 12, and nothing but str 4 weapons, but a perfectly squishy unit of scouts adjacent to it, you have to roll to pick em out. Any "no possability of damage" results for this rule should automatically override it.

When something big and scary is getting that close to you it is pretty common to open fire with stuff that just won't help - it takes training, experience and discipline to ignore that and instead open up on something further away that you might actually hurt, but won't stop the big scary thing killing you. That training, experience and discipline is what is represented in the game by Leadership. The total lack of control over your men is a standard problem all commanders have to deal with, if you are commanding guys with ld7 then you know they aren't going to be half as dependable as the space marines on the other side of the hill.