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jeremycobert wrote:you assume GW has writers that can competently write interesting yet balanced rules. i however have been around the block a few times and know differently.

the doctrine system was very innovative for a codex, it allowed the end users to create their own unique army and even allowed you to make crappy units somewhat worthwhile.

OK, speaking of Doctrines, how often did anybody take Warrior Weapons (a Doctrine that turns somewhat worthwhile Guardsmen into totally crappy units) to make their unique armies?

No, I merely assume that GW's Doctrine-Free IG would be no worse than the current Doctrine disaster.

This is a very trivially low bar for competence, that even a blind monkey (or Jervis himself) could achieve with little effort.

The Doctrine System was a fanastic concept, but it was executed poorly, leaving most of the Doctrines a complete waste of time, and a few so good that you basically had to take them to have a competative army.

The problem lies in the fact that GW won't try to fix the Doctrine System, they'll just cut it in the same way they give Rending to any unit they don't know how to fix.

BYE

This has been a good thread so far, plenty of nice points raised pro and con. I voted yes, because as it stands, I never win anyway, so I have nothing to lose with my IG army.

GW will probably not fix Doctrines, that's true. They won't fix chapter traits either, and they didn't fix the Chaos Legions or Eldar Craftworlds. All in all, they're no big on fixing.

I suspect we'll end up losing some units. Conscripts, almost certainly. A lot of units will be "rebalanced". I expect Ogryns will go back to 5-man squads, gain Fleet and, surprise, Rending, for the low, low price of 180pts per unit.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Doctrine System was a fanastic concept, but it was executed poorly, leaving most of the Doctrines a complete waste of time, and a few so good that you basically had to take them to have a competative army.

The problem lies in the fact that GW won't try to fix the Doctrine System, they'll just cut it in the same way they give Rending to any unit they don't know how to fix.

BYE

Let's hope for rending bayonets!

stonefox wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Doctrine System was a fanastic concept, but it was executed poorly, leaving most of the Doctrines a complete waste of time, and a few so good that you basically had to take them to have a competative army.

The problem lies in the fact that GW won't try to fix the Doctrine System, they'll just cut it in the same way they give Rending to any unit they don't know how to fix.

BYE

Let's hope for rending bayonets!

Dude, do you remember the WD mailbag request for super bayonets from a few (?) years ago? I was practically rolling with laughter.

Attaching a small pointy stick will not make a Guardsman into a HtH combat god.

Personally, I like to presume that they're fighting with sharpened shovels, rather than screwing around with little knives.

My guys stab incredibly fast and use sharpened shovels as well as knives. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (They count as Kroot.)

edit: Oh wait we were talking about IG.

So is the 60%+ in favor of a new codex a sign that we have strong faith in the current design team, or a lingering hatred of the current codex's flaws?

It may be more acceptance that the current codex will somehow be hamstrung under 5th edition rules.

Kyoto, I'd say it's a lot of things:

For change:
- Objectives are a problem
- Maneuver warfare is not supported
- Unnecessary complexity in current list
- Doctrines are a mess
- Excessively limited basic list

Against change:
- fear of invalidated models / conversions
- fear of army list changes
- dislike of rebalancing in general

JohnHwangDD wrote:Kyoto, I'd say it's a lot of things:

For change:
- Objectives are a problem
- Maneuver warfare is not supported
- Unnecessary complexity in current list
- Doctrines are a mess
- Excessively limited basic list

Against change:
- fear of invalidated models / conversions
- fear of army list changes
- dislike of rebalancing in general

More like:
Against Change:
-fear of loss of options
-fear of straight jacket vanilla list only
-fear of invalidated armies
-fear GW will go at the codex with a sledgehammer to fix "imbalances."
-fear concerns of maneuver/objective warfare will not be addressed.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:So is the 60%+ in favor of a new codex a sign that we have strong faith in the current design team, or a lingering hatred of the current codex's flaws?

As scary as this sounds, I might have to go with that it's a sign of faith.

The current codex isn't bad, and few IG players I've talked to hate it. It does suffer from a harsh case of "late 3rd ed-itis": tons of crappy units, nonsensical choices, atrocious internal balance (Stormtroopers vs. vets; Ogryn vs. Rough riders), and the desire to shoe horn as many evocative rule ever written for a sublist into one single codex. It was also written during 3rd edition, and while the studio claims they had 4th edition in mind, I think that's BS. Chimeras were a decent light tank/scoring unit at 85, but as a transport it's overcosted. Guardsmen were good in the static days of 40k, but in a manuever world are overcosted. The codex, like the DE one, needs an update if only because there is a dwindling number of effective builds in the book.

On the plus side for the designers, I'm starting to think that there might be some method to their madness. I think GW has learned the lesson that providing a la cart options isn't the only way to ensure a variety of innovative lists. If the current IG book is similar to Orks, Eldar, or even Chaos I think IG are in good shape. I think there is a kneejerk fear that IG will end up like the old 3rd edition book, but that simply won't happen. Even the much maligned DA, which are a subset of the less interesting end of the MEQ spectrum have a couple of neat builds and tons of options in their book. (Fact: DA have tons more HQ, the same # of elites, fewer troops unless you count RW and DW, same # of fasts and more heavies, plus they enjoy more transport options).

Wow, what a great thread!

I really like the eb and flow of the comments. Particularly Polonius even handed writing. Huzah!

I voted yes, I would love to see a new IG dex. I am terified by the concept though as I do not like the new lockstep (limited options we have seen in the current dexes: Chaos and Daemons are both total failures IMO).

What the IG dex really needs is, to stay the same structure wise and have all the odd units corrected. I seriously doubt this would be what we actually get because of the direction of ciurrent codex development ie: Chaos Codex and Daemon COdex. What everyone wanted there: Chaos as a side; Daemons, lots of chaos options and some nod to the LATD codex to make it work somehow, what we got: Codex Spikey Marines and Codex Deep Striking Nidzilla. I'm afraid thats what will happen to IG. I expect we will get no more doctrines, and all the same awful problems with all the existing units, combined with a creamy whipped topping of units removal! In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see the heavy company as a formation disapear entirely and the old tank units (like mortar medusas and the autocannon leman russ and vanquisher) to all stay dead.

What'd I'd like:

Viable CC Options
Fix Ogryns, ripper guns are rending, lower point cost, attached in the HQ or as an Elite choice, Bonehead gets a power weapon
Fix Roughriders, why do they have the only weapon in the game that breaks? They always have power weapons, they get the bonus everytime they charge
Add Jump Pack IG back, with flamers
IG Commanders are not ICs, just take it away from them, then they would work right in HtH in their squads, and a power glove might be ok.

Multiple Troop Options
Remove the limits for conscripts and Armored fist squads ratio to platoons, totally unnecesary
Restore Penal Battalions, Units that you can SHOOT INTO THE CC they are involved in, 3 or 4 points each BS2 LD7, failed leadership checks are automatically passed by
a loss of models equal to the difference (Bomb Collars)
Make Veterans, Storm Troopers and Grenadiers all Troop Choices
Make a roughrider Platoon a Troop choice

Return of all the tanks:
Put the Vanquisher, Tank Destroyer, Autocannon leman russ, Medusa, Manticore In the list
Add the baneblade in as a 2x Heavy support choice option

Retsore the armored company list
Allow an IC to be taken as a "Tank Commander" HQ choice who would make Leman Russes Troop choices if he was taken

FIX the Elites and HQ Choices for Advisors
None of these are really ICs, make them all squad options for existing sqauds and remove their IC status: fixed (scrap the doctrines to take them)

Combined Imperial Armies
Redress the allies rules for IG: Bring Back Harlequins with them, and redefine the ally for Kroot Mercs
Simplify the allied rules, essentially any imperial armies can be combined at any points level as long as the force org requirements for both codices are met


What I predict we will get:

Removal of doctrines and the complete disapearance of light infantry, drop armies, abhumans, and cameoline etc, Vanilla IG Only that match the models currently sold. Removal of all the units that aren't sold as units or dont have box sets or models: the heavy Platoon entirely, no new allied rules, exact same units for rats, ogryns and IC characters as current codex, possible removal of the conscript unit also. Some tinkering with characters. Innexplicable inclusion of the flawed CC units RRs and Ogryns even though they have never had a regiment/unit box. Just like the dameons and chaos codexes, fewer options, themed down armies, everyone is the same.

Remeber, you are a precious unique snowflake,

...

JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!

@Kid_Kyoto i think the folks who voted no a thinking back to what happen to DA, Chaos .. no more legions,ravenwing,deathwing etc.
for the folks who voted yes hoping for a change lets face it some lists didn't work or were so restricted it wasn't funny IMO

Augustus wrote:Wow, what a great thread!

I really like the eb and flow of the comments. Particularly Polonius even handed writing. Huzah!

I voted yes, I would love to see a new IG dex. I am terified by the concept though as I do not like the new lockstep (limited options we have seen in the current dexes: Chaos and Daemons are both total failures IMO).

What the IG dex really needs is, to stay the same structure wise and have all the odd units corrected. I seriously doubt this would be what we actually get because of the direction of ciurrent codex development ie: Chaos Codex and Daemon COdex. What everyone wanted there: Chaos as a side; Daemons, lots of chaos options and some nod to the LATD codex to make it work somehow, what we got: Codex Spikey Marines and Codex Deep Striking Nidzilla. I'm afraid thats what will happen to IG. I expect we will get no more doctrines, and all the same awful problems with all the existing units, combined with a creamy whipped topping of units removal! In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see the heavy company as a formation disapear entirely and the old tank units (like mortar medusas and the autocannon leman russ and vanquisher) to all stay dead.

What'd I'd like:

Viable CC Options
Fix Ogryns, ripper guns are rending, lower point cost, attached in the HQ or as an Elite choice, Bonehead gets a power weapon
Fix Roughriders, why do they have the only weapon in the game that breaks? They always have power weapons, they get the bonus everytime they charge
Add Jump Pack IG back, with flamers
IG Commanders are not ICs, just take it away from them, then they would work right in HtH in their squads, and a power glove might be ok.

Multiple Troop Options
Remove the limits for conscripts and Armored fist squads ratio to platoons, totally unnecesary
Restore Penal Battalions, Units that you can SHOOT INTO THE CC they are involved in, 3 or 4 points each BS2 LD7, failed leadership checks are automatically passed by
a loss of models equal to the difference (Bomb Collars)
Make Veterans, Storm Troopers and Grenadiers all Troop Choices
Make a roughrider Platoon a Troop choice

Return of all the tanks:
Put the Vanquisher, Tank Destroyer, Autocannon leman russ, Medusa, Manticore In the list
Add the baneblade in as a 2x Heavy support choice option

Retsore the armored company list
Allow an IC to be taken as a "Tank Commander" HQ choice who would make Leman Russes Troop choices if he was taken

FIX the Elites and HQ Choices for Advisors
None of these are really ICs, make them all squad options for existing sqauds and remove their IC status: fixed (scrap the doctrines to take them)

Combined Imperial Armies
Redress the allies rules for IG: Bring Back Harlequins with them, and redefine the ally for Kroot Mercs
Simplify the allied rules, essentially any imperial armies can be combined at any points level as long as the force org requirements for both codices are met


What I predict we will get:

Removal of doctrines and the complete disapearance of light infantry, drop armies, abhumans, and cameoline etc, Vanilla IG Only that match the models currently sold. Removal of all the units that aren't sold as units or dont have box sets or models: the heavy Platoon entirely, no new allied rules, exact same units for rats, ogryns and IC characters as current codex, possible removal of the conscript unit also. Some tinkering with characters. Innexplicable inclusion of the flawed CC units RRs and Ogryns even though they have never had a regiment/unit box. Just like the dameons and chaos codexes, fewer options, themed down armies, everyone is the same.

Remeber, you are a precious unique snowflake,

...

JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!

yea what he said!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:So is the 60%+ in favor of a new codex a sign that we have strong faith in the current design team, or a lingering hatred of the current codex's flaws?

For me it's Option D) What's the worst that could happen. At the very least, a change will be interesting. I doubt they can make Ogryns, GLs, MLs and ratlings worse than they are today, so why not give them a ride on the ol' Reshuffleometer and see what comes out?

it worked for Eldar.

jfrazell wrote:yea what he said!

Thanks, when I write a long one like that I sometimes wonder if anyone reads it all, heh.

Lets hope for a verbose codex season instead of the abbreviated codices they have been publishing! Recycle the fluff, write more rules instead of the other way 'round says I!

Augustus wrote:

jfrazell wrote:yea what he said!

Thanks, when I write a long one like that I sometimes wonder if anyone reads it all, heh.

Lets hope for a verbose codex season instead of the abbreviated codices they have been publishing! Recycle the fluff, write more rules instead of the other way 'round says I!

I read it, too. I don't agree with all of it, but at least there are people still that interested in fate of the poor bloody infantry.

Yea, some of it was nostalgic pie! Fair enough.

i voted no because i believe that GW is out of ideas. we can either have no doctrines and all armies will eventually look the same or we keep the current codex with the possibility of having a different army on the field.

jfrazell wrote:
More like:
Against Change:
-fear of loss of options
-fear of straight jacket vanilla list only
-fear of invalidated armies
-fear GW will go at the codex with a sledgehammer to fix "imbalances."
-fear concerns of maneuver/objective warfare will not be addressed.

I don't do this often, and I am loathe to do it even now, but:

QFT

BYE

edit: figured out what QFT meant. Thanks HBMC.

I'd love to see IG get their sub-par doctrines buffed &/or bundled with those popular ones... And make them less dependant on those ownyou-lisks...

Change is inevitable. GW will redo the codex, and do so to fit the current "vision" of design, for better or worse.

I expect doctrines as they stand now to dissapear.

What I would like to see tho, is for many of the doctrines to be folded up into either the standard rules for the guardsman, or into a form of a traits system.

If I were planning the Guard codex, I would shoot for a codex that would allow for all types of human armies, regardless of allegience.

The idea being, when you create your army, you make say 3 choices that will influence your gear/allies, etc.

Choice 1 : Are you Loyal, Xenos Influenced, or Chaos Corrupted ?

This decision would result in different options for allied units, but also adjust basic units. Loyal units would have free/discounted Priests, Chaos Corrupted would have free Psykers. Conscripts in Chaos Corrupted armies would become mutants with no armor and just 2 hand weapons, but could be given Chaos banners to benefit from marks of Chaos.

Obviously Loyal armies would be able to take allies from the Inquisition Codecies, whereas Xenos/Chaos could take Troop choices, such as Chaos Marines, or Kroot/Fire Warriors, either as actual Troop choices or perhaps as elites choices.

Choice 2 : Is your regiment provided with Light Armor, Standard, or Heavy Armor.

This decision most directly influences your armor saves. But could also influence things like Infiltration, Scouting, Chameoline, Tank availability.

Choice 3 : What is your training level? Feral, Line, Hardened

This choice directly effects leadership choices, but might also open other options. Such as Feral troops having the option to go with pistol/ccw.


Just ideas really, and alot of this would need some simplification based on GWs current 'vision'. Maybe just simply use the first choice, Loyal, Xenos, Chaos.

Ultimately the goal is to allow people to play not just generic Imperial Guard, but Hordes of Chaos, Genestealer Cults, Tau Loyalists, etc.

That's a cool idea, I'd be happy if that was they way it worked, I just think its to inventive to be close to the truth, but neat anyway!

Lets hope they do something inventive when it eventually rolls around.

Thats part of the issue. Although there are mutliple avenues, its really not difficult to modify the existing codex to make it a strong tier 1 list with lots of options. This route, balanced traits, multiple platoon options, they all lead to a similar conclusion.

Because it can both be fixed easily with useless units/doctrines modified to not be useless (and thereby increasing sales) those who are leery of any GW tweek are doubly leery-because this one is easy to fix.

I want a new codex. I could care less about the rules in it. I'll make it work for me. I want the new codex because new codex = new models. I'm not in the hobby to play the game, I'm in it to build the models, and play the game sometimes with the models I'm building

Most important of all.. NEW UNITS!! WE NEED NEW UNITS!!! ARGHHH!!!

I'd like the new units to be plastic Ogryns and plastic Roughriders, and maybe even the great coated IG that went round and round before.

(And not from FW, real GW plastics, resin minis suck.)

Well having nearly completed Legion, I want laslance wielding pikemen. Now there's a counter assault unit I could get behind.

Or Jackal gunships, because thats just kewl.