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Let's start a petition. There is a legion waiting to bring about his demise.

G

And thus destroy 40k for good

As somebody who has been very critical of Jervis of late, I really don't think him getting canned is the right answer. I just think he should be focused on fluff, on rallying up support for the hobby, etc.

I also feel like people are overestimating how mercenary GW is with staff. Perhaps with lower level folks there are layoffs, but I don't think this is a place where recognizable names are gonna get axed. Seems more like people leave on their own.

I've lost count, how many chickens are supposed to hatch now?

I think it is amusing to watch those who want "improvements" (to their lists), but decry Codex Creep (for "improvements" other lists).

Personally, I like Jervis precisely because he's cleaning things up and making the necessary changes to transform the game without sending us into unstoppable Codex Creep.

Aaaand, just to put this rumor completely to rest, from the SG website:

Once again Warhammer World will be hosting The Blood Bowl this weekend. Coaches from all over the world will be gathering to decide which team is the best at the year's most prodigious Blood Bowl event. The guys from Cyanide Studios will also be in attendance showing a sneak peak at the forthcoming Blood Bowl computer game.

Jervis will also be popping in to say hello (rumours of his demise have been greatly exaggerated ;-).

For now,
Andy @ Fanatic

Silverwarrior88 wrote:JJ is taking away alot of the things that make the different armies unique.

Name one.

Let's see, how about I use the CSM codex for examples?

Here is what is no longer available with the new codex; veteran skills, demonic gifts, minor psychic powers, legion specific rules for traitor legions.

Darrian

Darrian13 wrote:Here is what is no longer available with the new codex; veteran skills, demonic gifts, minor psychic powers, legion specific rules for traitor legions.

Don't forget daemons that aren't generic.

BYE

You forget wargear. There really isn't any. Item descriptions=not a wargear list.

You also forget being lead by a greater demon.

Possessed that do what you want.

I could go on, but why bother? Fanbois are just that.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think it is amusing to watch those who want "improvements" (to their lists), but decry Codex Creep (for "improvements" other lists).

Personally, I like Jervis precisely because he's cleaning things up and making the necessary changes to transform the game without sending us into unstoppable Codex Creep.

Quoted for truth.

Salvation122 wrote:

Silverwarrior88 wrote:JJ is taking away alot of the things that make the different armies unique.

Name one.

Seriously?

The guy is a liability to the company, but if he were being fired, a duche like oddlegg1234 would be the last one you would here it from.

I don't care if he is a nice guy, is a sweetheart to talk to, or if he can walk on water with no legs.

Jervis is a figurhead and a source of great amusement as he thrashes around in his own feces of what has become of 40K as of late.

As for him doing anything good or bad, all you need to do is to go look at the different codex's and see how they have turned t crap from the beginning till now.

You can relax, he gets a buy on the axing... for now.

Nessessary is a loose term when you talk about 40k. I have alot of crap that has been coded " unplayable" laying waste in a back room that was... " Nessessary."

As for being an " asset to the game, a legend, and all that..."
He is a cog in a machine. His job is to be a face to p)(* and moan to, ask alot of questions, and get a sympathetic smile, a nod, or a BS answer.

He will stay around until his usefulness runs out and then he gets the door to make way for the next brush cleaner. Maybe someone with some talent, or can actually write something that will benefit the game instead of thier own little ego.

As long as his kid got the pictures of the gear in the books, then it is all that matters. Nevermind that the equipment doesn't have a use in the game, the wargear is gone, and X cant use Y anymore.

Darrian13 wrote:Let's see, how about I use the CSM codex for examples?

Here is what is no longer available with the new codex; veteran skills, demonic gifts, minor psychic powers, legion specific rules for traitor legions.

Darrian

So what you're complaining about is the loss of the "codex creep" from the 2nd ed chaos codex to the 4th edition codex.

Legion specific rules didn't appear till late 3rd/4th edition. Veteran skills in the 2nd ed codex included all of Infiltrate for Veteran Squads.

The only thing that has been truly "lost" is the god-specific daemons, and wargear. Even in the 2nd ed codex, there weren't rules for the Legions, nor the first 3rd edition codex. They each had a half page fluff section, and you painted your models to match.

As a 2nd -> 5th ed chaos player, I'm not feeling the chicken little mentatlity going on about chaos. As was mentioned, all of the codexes are being "reset" at a more baseline level. I'm fine with that. There isn't a model in my collection that I can't use under the current rules (and I'm not saying it might not suck - dreads, possessed), but I can.

Flipping through the 2nd ed dex, man, that was some good stuff. The writing was interesting, fun, and it had cultist and daemon world lists in the back. THAT is how a codex should be written.

Cruentus wrote:Legion specific rules didn't appear till late 3rd/4th edition. Veteran skills in the 2nd ed codex included all of Infiltrate for Veteran Squads.

Legion-specific rules appeared in WD articles, fairly early in 3rd edition. Not coincidentally, that's when I started with Chaos.

There isn't a model in my collection that I can't use under the current rules (and I'm not saying it might not suck - dreads, possessed), but I can.

Bully for you. Me, I've got a whole lot of mounted daemonettes and Terminators with sonic weaponry who have no place in the current CSM codex. And never mind anyone who had modeled up cultists....

The biggest complaint is the loss of choice and options.

Yes, many of the options in the previous codex were too good/underpriced, but after several years of play, it would not exactly have been difficult to cut one or two minor things that didn't affect your models (*cough* Siren *cough*), and to simply tweak the point costs and organization of a few other things. If you cost things appropriately, balance is restored without sacrificing flexibility and making people's armies and units illegal.

Darrian13 wrote:Let's see, how about I use the CSM codex for examples?

Here is what is no longer available with the new codex; veteran skills, demonic gifts, minor psychic powers, legion specific rules for traitor legions.

Darrian

Jervis did not write the Chaos Space Marine codex. Jervis only provided the framework of how codices should be written, yet Phil wrote the Ork codex under the same guidelines and most people don't hate that book.

If you don't like the CSM codex you have to blame Alessio and Gav, not Jervis.

To quote myself from a different thread (or more accurately, cut and paste my own comments):

It always makes me chuckle in my soul when people bemoan the new C:CSM. Its a good book, more balanced than v3.5 C:CSM, and while written with renegades/Black Legion in mind, still allows the vast majority of fluff and background to be represented. I'm a Nurgle boy to the marrow of my bones, and sure I miss my demons, but the new book is still very strong. There isn't a single model from my 3.5 version of my army that I can't use.

Sure, I feel for the IW players that can't use a basilisk anymore, or alpha legion players that can't use their cultists anymore. But I sure as hell don't blame GW for "ruining a good thing." The 3.5 codex was broken. It was overpowered. It gave new life to Herohammer in a game when most people agreed that Herohammer had to go away. You want someone to blame for your goodies being taken away? Talk to the mirror.

It's our fault, collectively as Chaos players, that we lost the awesomeness. Everytime someone put an infiltrating Nurgle Speed Lieutenant with a manreaper on the table, we brought ourselves closer to losing it. Every Iron Warriors player with 4 pie plates and 9 Obliterators, every Word Bearers army that Deployed 1 model in the deployment phase, every Slaanesh player who spent 350 points to make an unkillable Siren Prince helped to kill the 3.5 codex.

"But it was GWs fault for not playtesting their source material" doesn't work as an excuse anymore, either. Any time that someone complained about the nigh-untouchable, not to mention unkillable, Siren Prince, either on a forum or in conversations in person, the excuse I've always heard was "Its legal so I'm using it. Blame GW for not playtesting..." In my observations, those tend to be the same people who always bemoan GW for "not listening to the customers." Ironically, they were wrong. GW did listen. They heard what we had to say about the brokenness of the 3.5 C:CSM, they observed for themselves, and they fixed the problems. GW puts minor psychic powers in the Chaos list to add character, players abuse said powers, players loose said powers in the next edition. GW gives us demonic talents, veteran skills, unique force organization charts, players abuse the Nurgle out of them, and we're shocked they got nerfed?

The new book is amazingood if given the chance. Berserkers? Better. 1K sons, better. Plague Marines, better. Noise Marines, still too expensive, but they were back in 3.5 too. Kneejerk reactions and mouthbreathing [as an aside, people have asked me to explain this term... think Mort the pharmacist from Family Guy and his AV nerd son, the way they talk... and then insert gaming talk into their voices, complaining about this or that, or remembering the "good days," or explaining how theyre smarter than the multi-million dollar company... THAT is mouthbreathing] because their oh-so-clever abusive rules lawyership was taken away from them don't change the fact that the new C:CSM is a very good book.

As for the loss of the wargear page, thats not an issue with the new codex per se, but rather an issue of the new organisation and style of codexes... one which I firmly support because it addresses those areas of the game that players CONSTANTLY exploited.

With the exception of the basilisk for IW players (and again, I feel for you that you lost your model, that's the one point I concede on the book changeover) and cultists I challenge anyone to give an example of an option they lost thats not in the book. I guarantee I will be able to prove its unbalanced brokenness or find a way to do it in the new C:CSM as good or better.

yakface wrote:If you don't like the CSM codex you have to blame Alessio and Gav, not Jervis.

Alessio Cavatore: the same man responsible for the awesome yet grossly overpowered VC army book. Hmm.

Actually, if one(or two) of the sub guys screw up. Their boss is responsible also, so lets burn them all at the stakes.

Deathgod: Well said. I agree.

Death, your entire post is tripe.

It is amusing, but it's still pointless tripe.

You haven't even come close to the real reason the Codex was effectively killed.

Why's that Stelek?

While I agree that, if intended to represent true Renegades as some people claim, it does fail (no speeders, no assault cannons for instance), if you're going to complain about the daemons, remember it's codex Chaos Space Marines.
Though there is some stuff I've seen people complain about (like the daemon weapons being a double-edged blade, lack of customization for the DP), I for one like the essence of the book.
Take, for example, Word Bearers : IMHO, it makes a lot more sense that they summon generic daemons rather than Khorne, or Slaanesh.

Good post, Deathgod. An enjoyable read that doesn't rely on trashing or the audience to make it's point.

Destrado wrote:Why's that Stelek?

While I agree that, if intended to represent true Renegades as some people claim, it does fail (no speeders, no assault cannons for instance), if you're going to complain about the daemons, remember it's codex Chaos Space Marines.
Though there is some stuff I've seen people complain about (like the daemon weapons being a double-edged blade, lack of customization for the DP), I for one like the essence of the book.
Take, for example, Word Bearers : IMHO, it makes a lot more sense that they summon generic daemons rather than Khorne, or Slaanesh.

Good post, Deathgod. An enjoyable read that doesn't rely on trashing or the audience to make it's point.

Deathgod wrote:

The new book is amazingood if given the chance. Berserkers? Better. 1K sons, better. Plague Marines, better. Noise Marines, still too expensive, but they were back in 3.5 too. Kneejerk reactions and mouthbreathing [as an aside, people have asked me to explain this term... think Mort the pharmacist from Family Guy and his AV nerd son, the way they talk... and then insert gaming talk into their voices, complaining about this or that, or remembering the "good days," or explaining how theyre smarter than the multi-million dollar company... THAT is mouthbreathing] because their oh-so-clever abusive rules lawyership was taken away from them don't change the fact that the new C:CSM is a very good book.

Riiiight...

Anyone who liked the old and doesn't like the new CSM codex can't possibly be offended by that post at all!

Cruentus wrote:Legion specific rules didn't appear till late 3rd/4th edition.

That's funny. I could've sworn my ancient copy of Realms of Chaos had Black Legion, World Eater and Emperor's Children lists in there. Certainly different to what we have (or had) today, but they were there.

Maybe I was mistaken?

BYE

DeathGod wrote:It always makes me chuckle in my soul when people bemoan the new C:CSM.

It always makes me chuckle in my soul when people defend the new C:CSM. Specifically, how they often jump straight to the 'The old one was broken' routine and then tout out the 'This one is more balanced' and/or 'It's still a good book/competative list' arguments.

What find funny about that is that they're often arguing against an argument no one has made. The main reason people hate the new CSM - as I have been saying since day one, since my review that had to've come close to starting Dakka's biggest thread - is that the power, the balance and the competativeness of a list is meaningless, if the book itself is boring.

I couldn't care less if the new Codex lost all the time to the pathetic Dark Angel Codex, or was the most broken or unbalanced Codex this side of the moon - the book is boring. It's dull. It has no life, no energy, All the options - the flavour and colour - were removed. Entire sub-lists were removed, no matter how broken (Iron Warriors) or pathetic (1KSons) they were.

I may have been quite vocal for my dislike of Pete 'Page 41' Haines, and some of the balls-to-the-wall idiotic choices he made, but like with everything at GW, they often (or, when Andy C was there, did) have great concepts, but bad execution. Straight from Haine's mouth:

"The Codex formalises the idea that there are nine entirely different Chaos Legions, each with their own strengths and weaknesses rather than a single polyglot force."

That's Chaos. Many different forces, facets, factions - not one single list to rule them all.

So please, next time you go out to defend the Chaos Codex, and bitch about those of us who don't like it because it's 'not powerful enough', stop to think of the actual reasons why we're complaining.

BYE

Alpharius wrote:

Riiiight...

Anyone who liked the old and doesn't like the new CSM codex can't possibly be offended by that post at all!

Agreed. I loved the 3.5 book. I was able to play some really enjoyable competitive and distinct Chaos Marine armies without ever using a siren prince, without ever playing demon bomb, without running multiple pie plates and yet here I am with a converted up Basilisk that serves as a spiky paperweight, a bunch of Plaguebearers, nurglings, bloodletters and a bloodthirsters that are complete chaff under the current book, and some necromunda gangers turned cultists that are also essentially paperweights (and thank goodness I never bothered to put a Lost and the Damned list together). The new Chaos Codex with its complete lack of flavor and options is just a pale shadow of its predecessor. Thanks for nothing games workshop.

I do understand that the 3.5 book was open to abuse and I have certainly played against some of the abusive armies from that book (it had some totally useless stuff too ...such as thousand sons). It did need change. However, it didn't need to be gutted. Even the original 3rd ed Chaos book (all 48 pages of it) had a rules for making god specific demons.

Hot damn my user title is awesome.

BYE

Alpharius wrote:
Deathgod wrote:

The new book is amazingood if given the chance. Berserkers? Better. 1K sons, better. Plague Marines, better. Noise Marines, still too expensive, but they were back in 3.5 too. Kneejerk reactions and mouthbreathing [as an aside, people have asked me to explain this term... think Mort the pharmacist from Family Guy and his AV nerd son, the way they talk... and then insert gaming talk into their voices, complaining about this or that, or remembering the "good days," or explaining how theyre smarter than the multi-million dollar company... THAT is mouthbreathing] because their oh-so-clever abusive rules lawyership was taken away from them don't change the fact that the new C:CSM is a very good book.

Riiiight...

Anyone who liked the old and doesn't like the new CSM codex can't possibly be offended by that post at all!

Yeah, because my sympathies reside with rules-abusers. And since no-one in this whole site claims to be a rules abuser like Deathgod said, my point still stands true.

It is his point, and I found it to be a good one. I think quite the opposite of HMBC, in that I'd rather have a boring book and make up for it with my own army selection - painting skills, conversions, etc., rather than having a poorly balanced book that allowed "true" Iron Warriors army to be fielded because the extra slot made all the difference. Note that I'm not having a go at anyone who now has a Bassie "paperweight".

When I think of bad rules and fluff, I think of how nearly every Crimson Fists army plays like it's been 3 months since Rynn's, how every Night Lord army is fast-attack based (yeah, since terror troops means lots of bikes and raptors and the occasional Daemon Prince) and how Blood Angels went from hiding a flaw to rivalling Khorne Berzerkers. Or Eldar armies with more Guardians than Boyz in some Ork armies. Or the surprising number of MC's the hive mind has churned out.

Flavour all the way. Though I think that Chosen are rather dull, I think the rest of the Codex isn't. Sure, it isn't spectacular like the new Ork 'dex, but still a solid book.

Destrado wrote:While I agree that, if intended to represent true Renegades as some people claim, it does fail (no speeders, no assault cannons for instance)

This is a great point and one that I don't really see brought up a whole lot. Why is it that when a post-heresy space marine chapter goes renegade they all of a sudden sprout an armoury of pre-heresy equipment? Where are all the reaper autocannons coming from? I'm actually glad kind of glad that this is never explained since I can't imagine their explanation would be any good and they've already taken a big enough dump on the fluff with this new codex without pulling more crap out of their asses.

Sure, the designers talk a good game about focusing on renegades, but this codex actually does quite a piss-poor job of it. Just because it's bad at representing the Chaos legions doesn't mean it's good at representing Chaos renegades. In fact the new codex is pretty much bad at representing anything except Black Legion. On the other hand, if this is Codex: Black Legion what the hell are the Thousand Sons doing in it? Sure a Black Legion force might have a few squads of Thousand Sons allied to it but aren't we supposed to use Apocalypse if we want allies? Oh wait, I forgot - they wrote some new crap fluff about how the Black Legion now has Thousand Sons and Death Guard and Emperor's Children and World Eaters in it.

And this is really what pisses me off the most about the new codex. They run roughshod over the fluff in a sad attempt to justify shoehorning the legions into this single bland ruleset. This is especially evident in the "Armies of Chaos" section - just look at the captions for the pictures of the DG, WE, EC, and TS models:

Plague Marines will "fight alongside renegades and Traitor legionnaires all across the galaxy."
Berserkers will "fight wherever there is blood to be spilt."
Noise Marines often "fight alongside other Chaos forces."
Thousand Sons fight "in the service of many masters."

Well gee, do they ever fight alongside their own kind or are they all just mercenaries now?

And look at the obvious concerted effort they've made to mix up groups of CSM from different legions/chapters in the pictures. We see Black Legion with World Eaters; Red Corsairs with Death Guard, The Purged, and Black Legion; Black Legion with Word Bearers and Night Lords. It's almost as if they were consciously trying to "break up" the legions while proclaiming that from now on Chaos forces are supposed to be a mish-mash of units painted in every color of the rainbow. Lame.